pilotaydin
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Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:49 am

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/925096/L/


I don't know much about photos, and tricks to the eye, but i keep looking at this and it looks like the plane had an unreal climb angle/rate, it almost looks vertical!

What is the illusion i have caused by?
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typhaerion
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:37 am

Well, first of all, looking at the runway long ways you cannot get a definite feel for the lateral movement of the aircraft during the climb. So it looks as if the climb out is more vertical then it is.

There are two other factors that will affect the climbout slope:


  • The aircraft is a cargo aircraft, and thereby can climb out at a much steeper rate than one that is confined by passengers that may be queasy of stomach. It is a well known fact that cargo aircraft tend to have much steeper climb and dive rates than passenger aircraft because the only people aboard are the pilots and they will get to altitude as quick as they are able.
  • The Aircraft might be empty or mostly empty, futher increasing its performace capabilities and making it able to climb out even quicker. I witnessed a Delta 767 leaving DAB after a Super Bowl charter early this year and it got out in a hurry, with an almost unbelieveable climb rate because it was empty except for the crew.


Aircraft perform better at higher altitude, so it is in their best interest to get there as soon as possible. So a rate of climb like this is not uncommon. And the effect in thatpicture is just downright cool.

I hope this helps!

Edited for spelling...

[Edited 2005-09-20 21:46:34]
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jayspilot
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:39 am

ups guys flying a light 767 climbing out at V-2
 
PPVRA
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:45 am

I think it's just the angle at which the picture was taken... Because the a/c is coming almost straight at you, you can't really see the angle it is taking off. All an optical illusion.

Cheers
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scbriml
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:45 am

The foreshortening effects of a telephoto lens make the climb look steeper than it really is. To understand this, consider how short the runway looks.
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BMIFlyer
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:48 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
Because the a/c is coming almost straight at you

It looks like the aircraft is going away from the photographer, to me.

Am I correct??


Lee
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Magyarorszag
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:07 am

It certainly gives a visual impression of a very steep angle of climb which would perhaps not be if looked from aside, but I remember seeing B767 lightly loaded climbing steeply. It was about 15 years when AA, PA & TW still served GVA. All were flying to CDG before going across the pond, and were lightly loaded. AA & TW B767 climbed very fast and were always as twice as high as the PA A310. It always impressed me! So perhaps the UPS aircraft was climbing quit fast in this picture...

Regards.

M
 
planefreakaa
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:43 am

one thing though, if everything else has shown up in the picture, where is the aircraft, you have all the equipment on the ground showing up, but no airplane.
plus if this is a real picture, the aircraft would be going away from you, the white lights, which are on the aft end of the wings would give that away..
 
Newark777
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:48 am

Quoting Planefreakaa (Reply 7):
one thing though, if everything else has shown up in the picture, where is the aircraft, you have all the equipment on the ground showing up, but no airplane.

Everything on the ground was in the same place for the entire picture, therefore it shows up. The 767 was moving throughout the frame, and therefore was never in one place long enough to show up, especially since it was probably dark against the background. The lights, though, were bright enough to show up.

Quoting Planefreakaa (Reply 7):
plus if this is a real picture, the aircraft would be going away from you, the white lights, which are on the aft end of the wings would give that away..

I'm pretty sure it is heading away from the photographer. Whoever said it was coming at the photographer is probably wrong.

Harry
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ACDC8
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:54 am

Since the aircraft in question is a freighter (flying at night), and it does appear to have such a steep takeoff followed by an almost level turn, it wouldn't surprise me if noise abatement procedures were a factor.
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planefreakaa
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:56 am

one other thing that im not buying on this photo is the strobe lights, the red anti-collision and the white wing tip strobes and going off together. on boeing aircraft this is a complete seperate system, they would not be going off together.
 
Electech6299
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:00 am

Quoting Pilotaydin (Thread starter):
and tricks to the eye

Yep, tricks to the eye... I can't explain it entirely, but here are a few pieces that can help to put the photo in perspective:

The wingspan of a 767 is relatively huge compared to the lights in the foreground whereby a viewer estimates scale. This fact causes the eye to think that a very large object far away is actually a smaller object closer.

Think of how long the runway is--likely over a mile, right? But it looks much shorter. So the aircraft leveling off and taking a southbound route after initial climb could be at 3-5 miles from the airport, but look like only 1/2 mile from the end of the runway because the wingspan still looks wide.

A 767 5+miles out will not fade to a blur where the wings and body lights mix on a clear night like this. I watch widebodies from 15-20 miles out approach IAD, and on a clear night I can easily pick out the red wingtip lights at that distance.

Quoting Pilotaydin (Thread starter):
it looks like the plane had an unreal climb angle/rate

Not at all to me...Perhaps a steep angle, but the climb rate tells the truth to me. Think of this: The time between the strobes is approximately (I'm ashamed to say I don't know exactly...) 3-4 seconds. If the aircraft was actually climbing along the near-vertical path imagined from the picture, it would have to be practically crawling. No way it could maintain that lift, unless it was a military/aerobatic performance aircraft with thrust-to-weight greater than one, using the thrust to climb instead of the lift. (At which point I say, kudos to the pilot for keeping such an excellent flight profile!)

So my analysis is, the near-direct line of sight down the runway on the aircraft's departure path causes a misjudgement in depth perception, and what looks like a steep climb in a short distance is actually much more gradual than what appears. The fact that the view is near-direct, but not direct (i.e. down the centreline) reinforces this error in perspective because the viewer thinks thay are looking at a runway at a 20-30 degree angle, but are actually looking at a 3-4 degree angle.

(Also look at the runway lights- see how close together they look?)

Edit: Another thought- the caption says it was a package carrier (UPS), which frequently fly light loads. (Could also be a nearly-empty repositioning flight) Combined with the 767's engine performance, the climb rate can actually be pretty steep, adding to the perspective issues. (but not as steep as it appears!)

Option 2: The picture is actually of an F-16 with 0.75-second strobes that levelled off at 1,000 feet, and the caption is incorrect.

Any other guesses?
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ACDC8
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:04 am

Quoting Planefreakaa (Reply 10):
one other thing that im not buying on this photo is the strobe lights, the red anti-collision and the white wing tip strobes and going off together. on boeing aircraft this is a complete seperate system, they would not be going off together.

They are not going off together. The 767's anti collision light is quite aways forward of the wings. If you look in the picture they appear to be parallel, but since the picture was taken with a long exposure and the aircraft was moving, it looks as if the lights went off at the same time which they didn't.
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Magyarorszag
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:08 am

Quoting Planefreakaa (Reply 10):
one other thing that im not buying on this photo is the strobe lights, the red anti-collision and the white wing tip strobes and going off together. on boeing aircraft this is a complete seperate system, they would not be going off together

You're right, but on a 767, the upper red light is not at wingtip level, it is upfront between the first two doors of a pax B763 or at about the level of the cargo door for a cargo B763. As the picture is a long time exposure, you have to consider that the red light was first, and then came the wingtips white lights. In other words you can the aircraft doing triangles with its strobs, one red - two whites, with a slight time separation between.
 
Electech6299
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:15 am

Oops, my reply took to long...# 1 for departure ends up reply #11!

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 9):
it wouldn't surprise me if noise abatement procedures were a factor.

I was wondering that too, not familiar with where that would apply in Iowa. Any local yokels?

Quoting Planefreakaa (Reply 10):
one other thing that im not buying on this photo is the strobe lights, the red anti-collision and the white wing tip strobes and going off together. on boeing aircraft this is a complete seperate system, they would not be going off together.

Whether or not they are a separate system, I would expect them to operate on the same time spacing. For one thing, the timing circuits are standard (the capacitors recharge at the same rate) For another thing, the lights would not want to ever coincide as would eventually occur with different timing, due to potential adverse power discharge/electromagnetic effects, and finally, cyclic light patterns tend to have a hypnotic effect and are generally discouraged for that reason.

I also don't think they are going off at the same time, I don't think they do on Boeings, but they do on some smaller aircraft. I think they are repeating strobes with the anti-collision strobe about 1 second after the wingtip lights.

I don't doubt the possibility of the picture being valid- I'm one of the naive ones who will believe it does until told (or proven) otherwise by a reliable source.
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birdbrainz
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:22 am

This looks a lot like the departure profile out of John Wayne airport in Orange County, CA. They climb like hell to about 2k ft, and then put the throttles way back, and make a gradual right turn. Steep profiles are the norm, as many of the planes are very light when the leave.

About it being a fighter, I've seen F-15s leave PDX, and they do the opposite: they stay very low, put the wheels up, and then start going up like rockets. The fighter jet theory is plausible, except that I don't know about the position of the lights, especially the white nav lights on the wingtips. Also, the F-15's red beacon is on one tail, so it's not an F-15.

I agree that the depth of field on the pic is VERY compressed, leading you to believe that it's steeper that it really is.
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Electech6299
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:33 am

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 15):
About it being a fighter, I've seen F-15s leave PDX, and they do the opposite: they stay very low, put the wheels up, and then start going up like rockets. The fighter jet theory is plausible, except that I don't know about the position of the lights, especially the white nav lights on the wingtips. Also, the F-15's red beacon is on one tail, so it's not an F-15.

I agree, the wheels up would have had to occur very shortly after takeoff, if nothing else you would see a change in the flight profile if they were retracted during climb. Also, on second thought, I believe an F-16 is underpowered to do a direct vertical in most circumstances this shortly after takeoff- the engine needs more ram air to generate enough thrust to do this. I also agree it's not an F-15, or any other twin-tailed fighter. The white aft-facing wingtip lights are another giveaway, I don't recall seeing those on any fighter aircraft.

What single-tailed aircraft has a greater than 1:1 thrust/weight ratio at takeoff speed?

(answer: The Boeing 767, with a compressed depth of field!...Thanks for the terminology, those were the words I was looking for.)


[Edited 2005-09-20 23:37:36]
edit- spelling/verbage correction

[Edited 2005-09-20 23:39:55]
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iowaman
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:50 am

Quoting Electech6299 (Reply 14):
Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 9):
it wouldn't surprise me if noise abatement procedures were a factor.

I was wondering that too, not familiar with where that would apply in Iowa. Any local yokels?

Well I'm not local local, but the airport is on the southside of Des Moines, and at night they may have wanted a quick climb out. According to airnav.com: INFORMAL NOISE ABATEMENT PROCEDURES IN EFFECT. EXPECT ATC TO ASSIGN PREFERRED RY.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:11 am

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 5):
It looks like the aircraft is going away from the photographer, to me.

Am I correct??

True!

But either way, looking from behind or the front, you will still only see the vertical component of the take-off.

Since the a/c is not coming towards you, nor going away in a perfectly stright line ahead (photographer is at a slight angle from the runway), you only see a small portion of the horizontal change (the foward movement, what gives take-off an angle).

Cheers
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MarshalN
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:17 am

I didn't read through the entire thread, but think about it this way

If you have a camera that is positioned directly at the end of the runway, with the lens facing the length of the runway. Then, you have a plane taking off, basically taking the picture the same way except you're positioned differently. What will show up on the picture? You'll see almost vertical lines of the aircraft's lights, and then another line at a different angle once it reaches a level altitude. The almost vertical lines, of course, don't mean the aircraft took off vertically! It's just that with a 2d plane that's all we can discern.

So.... that's why this looks steep -- we're looking at it mostly from the end. If we're taking this picture sideways it wouldn't look so steep.
 
ACDC8
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:22 am

I don't know anything about optical illusions in photography, different angles and their affects (I'm still a novice). And if this photo is an optical illusion or not, I don't know. But what really confuses me is why can't some people accept the fact that sometimes for various reasons commericial airliners have very steep rates of climbs. I've seen a TU-154 take off from DUS that could make the Space Shuttle blush. Where's the problem?
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pilotaydin
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:24 am

wow, im amazed at the quality of the answers and the fact that no one has come off with a witty comment to me!

it's an excellent photo and i didnt mean to question whether it was real or not, just meant the climb looks unreal, but i think i get the idea that when ya zoom in that much, things seem different
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birdbrainz
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:27 am

I don't know about the terrain in Iowa, and could be way off here, but I think the hills are very characteristic of Southern California. Does Des Moines have rugged hills like that?

I also agree that this is most likely a noise abatement departure. I'm sticking with my theory that we're seeing a 757, 737NG, or A320 departure from SNA (Orange County, CA).

Any military folks out there? Do fighters have wingtip nav lights and strobes? My guess is no.

I'm very curious about how the red beacon disappears. It's as though the red beacon is far ahead of the wing.
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ACDC8
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:01 am

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 22):
I don't know about the terrain in Iowa, and could be way off here, but I think the hills are very characteristic of Southern California. Does Des Moines have rugged hills like that?

Where do you see hills?

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 22):
I'm sticking with my theory that we're seeing a 757, 737NG, or A320 departure from SNA (Orange County, CA).

The photographer stated that it was a UPS B767 out of Des Moines. Why would he say something other then that? What does he have to benefit out of it?
B767's and other airliners are very capable of achieving very steep climb rates, it's quite normal.

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 22):
I'm very curious about how the red beacon disappears. It's as though the red beacon is far ahead of the wing.

It is, please refer to replies 12 and 13.
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PPVRA
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:06 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 23):
B767's and other airliners are very capable of achieving very steep climb rates, it's quite normal.

But not that kind of apparant angle. Try doing that in any flight simulator you won't get far (in either direction).

Some fighters can't even do that [vertical] for more than a few seconds, much less an airliner--as light as it may be.

Cheers

[Edited 2005-09-21 01:08:10]
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ZSOFN
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:14 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 24):
But not that kind of apparant angle. Try doing that in any flight simulator you won't get far (in either direction).

Ever seen an empty 757 out of LHR before?  Smile

Including all the factors here (empty cargo, noise abatement, compressed field depth etc) there can be no doubt over this photo. I'm surprised there are suggestions here that this is fake, particularly as it would be so difficult to do. Look carefully and everything adds up!

One interesting thing to note is the anti-collision light on the top blinks slower than the one on the bottom, which only comes into view at the top of the climb and also near the camera before lining up.
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:18 am

This is one of the most gorgeous pics on a.net ever, IMHO. Just WOW!!!

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Newark777
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:19 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 24):
But not that kind of apparant angle. Try doing that in any flight simulator you won't get far (in either direction).

But the apparant length of the runway is only a few hundred feet or so, so judging the climb rate by just looking at it won't be very accurate.

Quoting ZSOFN (Reply 25):
One interesting thing to note is the anti-collision light on the top blinks slower than the one on the bottom, which only comes into view at the top of the climb and also near the camera before lining up.

Is it slower, or are do they just look closer together because the plane is now headed more directly away from the photographer, and the telephoto effect comes into play again?

Harry
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ACDC8
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:27 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 24):
But not that kind of apparant angle. Try doing that in any flight simulator you won't get far (in either direction).

FS and the real world are 2 very different worlds. The angle or climb rate in that photo is really not that spectacular, I've seen more impressive.


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PPVRA
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:34 am

Quoting ZSOFN (Reply 25):
Ever seen an empty 757 out of LHR before?

No, but...

Quoting Electech6299 (Reply 11):
unless it was a military/aerobatic performance aircraft with thrust-to-weight greater than one, using the thrust to climb instead of the lift.

This is what hapened:

Quoting Electech6299 (Reply 11):
So my analysis is, the near-direct line of sight down the runway on the aircraft's departure path causes a misjudgement in depth perception, and what looks like a steep climb in a short distance is actually much more gradual than what appears. The fact that the view is near-direct, but not direct (i.e. down the centreline) reinforces this error in perspective because the viewer thinks thay are looking at a runway at a 20-30 degree angle, but are actually looking at a 3-4 degree angle.

+ maybe, probably actually, combined with a powerful take-off.

Quoting ZSOFN (Reply 25):
One interesting thing to note is the anti-collision light on the top blinks slower than the one on the bottom, which only comes into view at the top of the climb and also near the camera before lining up.

That may be, I don't know, but how can you tell the difference between the top and bottom lights? If you look at the wing lights, they also become more frequent at the top. As a matter of fact, they should be less frequent--in distance covered, not timing (distance not well perceived due to the angle)--because the a/c is speeding up when leveled and the frequency remains the same.

Cheers
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birdbrainz
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:37 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 23):
Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 22):
I don't know about the terrain in Iowa, and could be way off here, but I think the hills are very characteristic of Southern California. Does Des Moines have rugged hills like that?

Where do you see hills?

On the horizon. Does Des Moines have a horizon like that?

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 23):
Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 22):
I'm sticking with my theory that we're seeing a 757, 737NG, or A320 departure from SNA (Orange County, CA).

The photographer stated that it was a UPS B767 out of Des Moines. Why would he say something other then that? What does he have to benefit out of it?
B767's and other airliners are very capable of achieving very steep climb rates, it's quite normal.

Certainly yes. The 767 is very capable, and it could very well be one. About the airport, I'm not saying that he/she is delborately trying to mislead us. Maybe he/she was taking a ton of these shots all over and got the airport wrong. I was merely offering the possibility that it was taken in Orange County, and I was looking for another poster to either corroborate or refute my theory. No malice was ever intended, and I am not, by any means, perfect. In fact, I'm a little embarrassed how often I make small errors in my posts on this site.
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ACDC8
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:39 am

A question regarding to the whole camera angle thing. Just an observation on my part, but I can't seem to make out the end of the runway. It may not be at the point of rotation, for all we know, the B767 could have lifted off at mid-field.
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PPVRA
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:40 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 27):

But the apparant length of the runway is only a few hundred feet or so, so judging the climb rate by just looking at it won't be very accurate.

If the runway seems only a few hundred feet or so, what does that say about the horizontal component of the take-off? The same thing. = It's actually much greater than it appears, just like the runway.

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 27):
Is it slower, or are do they just look closer together because the plane is now headed more directly away from the photographer, and the telephoto effect comes into play again?

Correct, as I see it at least...  Wink

Cheers
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Newark777
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:41 am

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 30):
On the horizon. Does Des Moines have a horizon like that?

That looks like a tree line to me.

Harry
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flyabunch
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:42 am

Several of you have mentioned telephoto/depth of field effects. That is exactly what is causing this effect. Telephoto lens compress the depth. The more powerful the lens, the greater the compression. The apparent shortness of the runway is the dead giveaway.

Yes, the climb was probably steep, but not as steep as the apparent climb rate in the picture. The telephoto compression makes it look steeper than it is.

I stayed in a hotel across the street from this airport just a few weeks ago. While it is not that busy, it is surrounded by residential areas and low hills. I am sure that noise abatement, even informal would be in effect at the time this plane was departing.

My guess is that the climb rate is about what you see with a normal 757 or light loaded 767 all the time.

Great photo though. Time lapse, when done well is one of my favorite techniques.

Mike
 
Newark777
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:45 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 32):
If the runway seems only a few hundred feet or so, what does that say about the horizontal component of the take-off? The same thing. = It's actually much greater than it appears, just like the runway.

Exactly.  Smile

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 34):
Great photo though. Time lapse, when done well is one of my favorite techniques.

Looks like a long exposure shot actually, just to be picky.  Wink

Harry
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PPVRA
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:50 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 35):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 32):
If the runway seems only a few hundred feet or so, what does that say about the horizontal component of the take-off? The same thing. = It's actually much greater than it appears, just like the runway.

Exactly. Smile

 Wink

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 31):
Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 31):
A question regarding to the whole camera angle thing. Just an observation on my part, but I can't seem to make out the end of the runway. It may not be at the point of rotation, for all we know, the B767 could have lifted off at mid-field.

Neither can I, really. But it doesn't really matter.

Even if it was a helicopter moving forward while taking-off the illusion would be similar.

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 34):
Great photo though. Time lapse, when done well is one of my favorite techniques.

 checkmark 

Cheers
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andrewuber
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:50 am


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © MSTAerodrome


That's much easier.
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birdbrainz
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:50 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 33):
Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 30):
On the horizon. Does Des Moines have a horizon like that?

That looks like a tree line to me.

Upon further inspection, you may very well be right. Thanks for the sharp eyes, Harry!  Smile Maybe I'm too used to the California coast with hills/mountains everywhere.
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
ACDC8
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:54 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):
Neither can I, really. But it doesn't really matter.

Even if it was a helicopter moving forward while taking-off the illusion would be similar.

Just trying to understand the whole camera angle/depth/telephoto lens stuff ...  Smile

I've been flying for years, so I can understand aircraft perofrmance and what they are capable of, but I'm new to photography and still learning.
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swabur
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:00 am

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 22):
I also agree that this is most likely a noise abatement departure. I'm sticking with my theory that we're seeing a 757, 737NG, or A320 departure from SNA (Orange County, CA).

There is no way that this is at SNA, you would be able to see the terminals on the left side of the picture. Besides I live just north of ONT, and I've seen very impressive climbouts just like this, especially how the aircraft climbs very steeply then levels out slightly. UPS's 767s and 757s have done this many times
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meister808
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:48 am

The telephoto effect is hard to understand for those who haven't experienced it in person before, but the fact that the wingtip white and bottom red strobes get so much closer when this airplane hits top-of-climb is a very very good illustration of how much a long lens can distort distance. It was explained really well here:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 29):
If you look at the wing lights, they also become more frequent at the top. As a matter of fact, they should be less frequent--in distance covered, not timing (distance not well perceived due to the angle)--because the a/c is speeding up when leveled and the frequency remains the same.

Good call PPVRA, and for those of you still doubting this picture, just look at it again and look exactly how much those lights 'speed-up' when the airplane levels off. According to the dots, the airplane is spending most of the time while the pic was being taken in that level phase, but you wouldn't know that unless you started counting.

Very nice shot. Kudos to MSTAerodrome.

-Meister
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Mandrake
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:44 am

What a good picture! Technically a fascinating shot. It has generated a lot of opinionating. I think Harry and Mike have covered all the bases in interpretting the conditions prevailing to make the picture.
Mandrake  goodvibes 
Everything nice has its price, and the nicer, the pricier.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:06 pm

Quoting Typhaerion (Reply 1):
The aircraft is a cargo aircraft, and thereby can climb out at a much steeper rate than one that is confined by passengers that may be queasy of stomach. It is a well known fact that cargo aircraft tend to have much steeper climb and dive rates than passenger aircraft because the only people aboard are the pilots and they will get to altitude as quick as they are able.

It is not a well known fact because it's not true. You fly the jet according to the manufacters certification limitations. For most large jets you won't see anything over about 25 (22-23 on the MD-11) deg. nose up on departure. If you're light you may go to the limit; if you're heavy you may only see about 17 deg. up in order to hold v2+10. I'll bet day in and day out that on any given route the cargo jet will be heavier than the same pax jet as well.
 
rampkontroler
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:17 pm

All I can say is....COOL Shot!! I'd love to get one like this.
 
loisencroach
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:09 pm

That ain't nothin'.....just Spiderman screwing around again.
 
Electech6299
Posts: 606
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:26 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 31):
A question regarding to the whole camera angle thing. Just an observation on my part, but I can't seem to make out the end of the runway. It may not be at the point of rotation, for all we know, the B767 could have lifted off at mid-field.

I had the same problem, no discernable far end to the runway. For that matter, I'm not sure about the foreground- is that the beginning of the runway? Are the white lights the final arms of the glideslope, or something else? They seem to be arranged in threes, which is why I think they look like the spaced clusters of lights on a glideslope- but why no runway markings at the threshhold then? The centreline stands out clearly, but no other runway markings, as if this intersection was further down the runway? But the green-hued lights- that looks like a continuous line along the threshhold, so maybe the markings just aren't visible because of the glare...Any help?

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 43):
I'll bet day in and day out that on any given route the cargo jet will be heavier than the same pax jet as well.

I would agree for a cargo flight, but this was UPS- a package goods carrier, not a heavy cargo carrier (like CargoLux). The package carriers fill up on bulk more than weight- as the A380F discussions are endlessly going on about. So even if this was a full flight for UPS, I think the 767 could achieve maximum rate of climb because the craft would likely be significantly below MTOW.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 28):
The angle or climb rate in that photo is really not that spectacular, I've seen more impressive.

Interesting post...are we looking at the same photo? Or have you done some geometric calculations and know the rate of climb? It's not that obvious to me...the apparent climb angle looks to me to be between 80 and 85 degrees. (Yes, I know this is an optical illusion, but that is what this thread is about, right?) So it's hard to judge what the actual climbout angle was for the 767, but the climb angle in your A300 pic I would estimate at less than 30, probably closer to the 25 degrees CosmicCruiser quoted. (Thanks for that post- I was hoping someone would debunk the "extreme climb" myth)

The "steep" climbouts people talk about are in this range. If a wide-body ever did reach a climbout angle of greater than 45 degrees, spotters would immediately recognize the difference, and it would feel to the passengers (who are reclining about 15-20 degrees already)- and the pilots- that the aircraft was going straight up.  scared   headache 

If you have even a rudimentary flight sim with external cam views, try to recreate a takeoff at 60 or even 40 degrees, and see how ridiculous it looks.  eyepopping 

BTW, can anyone verify what the maximum climb angle of the turboprop puddle-jumpers is? (Dash-8, etc...) I have always thought it was steeper, with a straight wing and all, but I have never really known for sure.

Quoting Meister808 (Reply 41):
Very nice shot. Kudos to MSTAerodrome.

I agree completely. Very well framed- and an amazing light balancing act, so the strobes and even nav lights were still visible at that distance without the foreground lights overexposing the scene.
Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:15 pm

This is likely a perfectly normal climb. The photographer's perspective is almost looking directly down the runway (he/she is probably a couple hundred feet to the right of the extended centerline, which doesn't have much of an effect when the runway is several thousand feet long).

Think about it...if we were directly on the extended centerline, then the apparent climb angle would be 90 degrees - vertical. Which is obviously not possible. Change our view by a few degrees to one side of the centerline, and the apparent climb angle will also decrease. But it won't decrease to the ACTUAL climb angle until our view is directly perpendicular to the flight path during climb. We're far from perpendicular to this flight path.

With a telephoto lens, the compression means this effect is magnified. If there were hills off the end of the runway, they would look much taller and much closer. I'll refer you to the following photo from LAX where the hills/mountains appear much closer than they would were you standing in that location (not the best example, but the best one i could find on short notice):


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Photo © Michael Arcellana



~Vik
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
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zeke
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:38 pm

The 767 is limited from memory to a 23.5 degree pitch as the fuel pumps can be uncovered and start sucking air. Depending on the weight, the aircraft can accelerate with a 23.5 degree pitch up from V2.

DEPARTURE ROUTE DESCRIPTION

Maintain runway heading; expect vector to assigned route/fix. Maintain 5000’ or assigned lower altitude. Expect clearance to filed altitude 10 minutes after
departure.

NOISE ABATEMENT PROCEDURES

1. Departure turn from runway 31

2. Restrict left turns from runway 23 below 4000 feet MSL

3. Restrict turns before reaching runway end

4. Shift military overhead pattern to southwest, restrict use of closed pattern.



AIRPORT CURFEWS

none

PREFERENTIAL RUNWAYS

Primary flow on runway 31

Secondary flow on runway 23


OPERATING QUOTA

none

ENGINE RUN-UP RESTRICTIONS

No engine runups are permitted between the hours of 10:00 pm and 7:00 am unless approved by the Aviation Director.


APU OPERATING RESTRICTIONS

none

NOISE BUDGET RESTRICTIONS

none

NOISE SURCHARGE

none
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ACDC8
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RE: Can Someone Please Explain This Pic To Me?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:11 pm

Quoting Electech6299 (Reply 46):
had the same problem, no discernable far end to the runway. For that matter, I'm not sure about the foreground- is that the beginning of the runway? Are the white lights the final arms of the glideslope, or something else? They seem to be arranged in threes, which is why I think they look like the spaced clusters of lights on a glideslope- but why no runway markings at the threshhold then? The centreline stands out clearly, but no other runway markings, as if this intersection was further down the runway? But the green-hued lights- that looks like a continuous line along the threshhold, so maybe the markings just aren't visible because of the glare...Any help?

The green lights at the bottom of the picture would be the begining of the runway from the angle we are looking at it, so the end of the runway would be marked by a series of red lights.

Quoting Electech6299 (Reply 46):
Interesting post...are we looking at the same photo? Or have you done some geometric calculations and know the rate of climb? It's not that obvious to me...the apparent climb angle looks to me to be between 80 and 85 degrees. (Yes, I know this is an optical illusion, but that is what this thread is about, right?) So it's hard to judge what the actual climbout angle was for the 767, but the climb angle in your A300 pic I would estimate at less than 30, probably closer to the 25 degrees CosmicCruiser quoted. (Thanks for that post- I was hoping someone would debunk the "extreme climb" myth)

No, I haven't done any gemometric calculations, I suck at math (  blush  ). I couldn't tell you what the rate of climb on that picture is. Like I said earlier, I'm still a novice to photography, so I'm still struggling with the whole technical aspect of the picture. Just trying to learn a bit.  Smile
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