manni
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The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:27 pm

There gotta be a couple airlines out there, that would like to add the A380 to their fleet but just can`t afford them, yet. Pure speculation, offcourse, but why not have a go.
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Thorben
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:35 pm

United
Northwest
US Airways
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atmx2000
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:39 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
US Airways

Huh?

They don't fly 747s so why include them?
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Shenzhen
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:40 pm

I'll bet there are a lot of people that would like a BMW 7 Series, but can't afford them.
 
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mariner
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:48 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 2):
They don't fly 747s so why include them?

I'll bet that if CEO Parker spoke really nicely to Airbus, the new US Airways could have three or four in a trice.

 

cheers

mariner

[Edited 2005-09-21 09:49:11]
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Thorben
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:03 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 2):
Huh?

They don't fly 747s so why include them?

Because they have many Airbusses and are a large carrier. Besides, IIRC they are making profit on their international routes and losses on the domestic ones. Therefore they might want to expand their international business.
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WINGS
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:21 pm

Quoting Manni (Thread starter):
There gotta be a couple airlines out there, that would like to add the A380 to their fleet but just can`t afford them, yet. Pure speculation, offcourse, but why not have a go.

I would have to say the following,

South African Airlines
Philipine Airlines
Garuda Airlines
Gulf Airlines
Northwest Airlines
United Airlines

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Wings
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atmx2000
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:42 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 4):
I'll bet that if CEO Parker spoke really nicely to Airbus, the new US Airways could have three or four in a trice.



Quoting Thorben (Reply 5):
Because they have many Airbusses and are a large carrier. Besides, IIRC they are making profit on their international routes and losses on the domestic ones. Therefore they might want to expand their international business.

But they don't really have hubs in the large cities that would warrant such large aircraft, nor do they have rights or much enough traffic to the key slot limited airports outside the US. If they did they would have been using 747s already.
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zeke
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:18 pm

British Airways...current are not in a position to buy any new aircraft
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Thorben
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:05 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 7):
But they don't really have hubs in the large cities that would warrant such large aircraft, nor do they have rights or much enough traffic to the key slot limited airports outside the US. If they did they would have been using 747s already.

After the merger with America Wet they'll probably have some hubs. But as far as I remember their current hubs are Philadelphia and Charlotte, I don't think they are ready for an A380. To FRA they might use one, but they don't have the right to land at LHR, so their need is indeed a little limited.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 8):
British Airways...current are not in a position to buy any new aircraft

Why are they not in the postition??

Besides, has anybody said Iberia yet?? They might use them to JFK, MEX or EZE.
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BCAL
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:10 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 8):
British Airways...current are not in a position to buy any new aircraft

If they wanted to, BA could easily raise or find the finance to place a large aircraft order, whether for A380s, 787s, 747Adv etc. The management is, however, more concerned about reducing their current debt so that BA will soon be in a stronger financial shape.
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airfrnt
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:05 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
United

United has moved away from 747s in favor of 777s. I doubt this will change.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
Northwest

Northwest I could see because of NRT, but they don't have a need for the plane outside of the NRT routes, and they can't use enough A380s for it to be worth the logistical cost.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
US Airways

No transatlantic hubs, no LHR slots. Nope. Maybe A350s here.

While we are speculating, I say that B6 and F9 need this plane. Everyone needs a new Wonderjet!
 
commavia
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:16 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
United
Northwest
US Airways

I highly doubt that any of those airlines will ever fly the A380 -- and if they do, likely because of an Airbus bribe, they won't for long because the enormous (negative) financial implications from it will either force them to ditch the plane or cause them to go out of business. I address US below -- but as for NW and UA -- where would they possibly fly that A380 and fill it up, profitably, on a consistent, daily, year-round basis? The answer: nowhere.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 5):
Because they have many Airbusses and are a large carrier. Besides, IIRC they are making profit on their international routes and losses on the domestic ones. Therefore they might want to expand their international business.

Thorben -- let's be real, here. You will never see US flying an A380 -- I don't care how much cash Airbus bribes them with. There is absolutely no need or network/market justification for flying that plane anywhere in the entire USAirways system pre- or post-merger. Quite honestly -- the same goes for NW and UA as well -- they don't need a plane that big!
 
A360
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:37 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 12):
-- and if they do, likely because of an Airbus bribe,

 laughing   laughing 
 
Thorben
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:45 pm

United has 31 744s and dozens of T7s. They should be able to use some A380s, even if it's just a dozen. They have enough A32x-Pilots that can easily switch to the A380. And they can operate it out of JFK, SFO, ORD, or LAX to either LHR, FRA, CDG, NRT, HKG, or PVG.

Northwest has Airbus A330s and A32X, they would have the pilot commonality, too. They have 16 744s and enough other widebodys. They could use it from Detroit to European and Asian destinations. They would mabey only need half a dozen, but they could use them. There are enough airlines that have ordered only 4-10 A380s.

OK, US Airways is a wild guess, but we'll see what happens.

Commavia, I will not comment your remarks about bribes.
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commavia
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:06 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 14):
United has 31 744s and dozens of T7s. They should be able to use some A380s, even if it's just a dozen.

Just because an airline flies 777s and 747s doesn't mean they need A380s. UA is a perfect example, as you used it -- they have both those aircraft, and have absolutely no need for the A380.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 14):
They have enough A32x-Pilots that can easily switch to the A380.

If UA got A380s, it would be very senior current 744 pilots -- not A320 pilots -- that would be flying it.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 14):
And they can operate it out of JFK, SFO, ORD, or LAX to either LHR, FRA, CDG, NRT, HKG, or PVG.

Where? Most of these routes you mentioned could support the A380 on a sustained basis (year-round, long-term) without frequency reductions, which would make the route unviable. Of the very few routes UA could perhaps operate the A380 profitably on (on a route-specific basis) like LAX-SYD, etc., the economics of operating an entire fleet of such enormous airplanes for only a tiny number of routes that could actually support that fleet would make it an uneconomic proposition.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 14):
They could use it from Detroit to European and Asian destinations.

Where? There is not a single NW route from DTW to Asia or Europe that could support the A380 on a consistent basis. NRT is doing just fine with 2 747s, and NW won't want to compromise frequency and lose precious NRT slots just so it can fly a behemoth of a plane. Same for DTW-AMS. Frequency (A330s, maybe a few 747s) will easily win out over such a huge plane.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 14):
Commavia, I will not comment your remarks about bribes.

You don't have to. Airbus' actions with the US reorganization (and I'm not criticizing them by the way, just calling them what they are) speak for themselves.
 
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:14 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):
Why are they not in the position??

They don't have funds to cover retirement funds of employees, they have not had new aircraft for some time. If memory serves correct, their last new aircraft (320 series) was ordered by a smaller airline that BA absorbed.
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AirNZ
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:38 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 12):
highly doubt that any of those airlines will ever fly the A380 -- and if they do, likely because of an Airbus bribe, they won't for long because the enormous (negative) financial implications from it will either force them to ditch the plane or cause them to go out of business



Quoting Commavia (Reply 12):
You will never see US flying an A380 -- I don't care how much cash Airbus bribes them with.

Hmmm! you seem to be using the word 'bribe' there rather freely!!
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airlinelover
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:50 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
United
Northwest
US Airways

Let's not forget that these 3 airlines don't WANT the A380.. It's not as much a matter of affording it..

Chris
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commavia
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:55 am

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 17):
Hmmm! you seem to be using the word 'bribe' there rather freely!!

I don't think so, and please let me clarify what I mean.

Airbus came to a weak and (then) dying USAirways and essentially said, "give us billions for planes and we'll give you hundreds of millions to operate with right now."

Now, AirNZ -- If I came to you after you had just filed for bankruptcy (just a complete hypothetical, I mean no disrespect AirNZ) and said:

"AirNZ, I know that if you survive bankruptcy you are probably going to spending about $20,000 on a new car in the next few years. I'll give you $2,000 right now and then in two years, you promise to buy a $20,000 car from me because I'm really have a hard time getting them off the dealership lot. I help you survive right now, you help me sell some of my cars later."

An extended metaphor, no doubt, but this is essentially what Airbus said to US. Knowing that their A350 is going absolutely nowhere compared to the blockbuster success of the 787, Airbus essentially offered US cash right now in return for a guarantee of airplane orders for their poorly selling A350 later. AC did the exact same thing with maintenance contracts -- they offered US $75M in cash in return for hundreds of millions in maintenance outsourcing contracts over the next few years.

Let me be clear about this: I am not in any way criticizing what Airbus (or AC) for that matter have done. I have said that here again and again. It was a smart and prudent business decision on their part that required relatively small up-front investment in return for much larger cash revenues later in the future. It was smart, but in my mind -- you call a spade a spade, you call a "bribe" a "bribe." This was a legalized bribe.

I don't think that is using the word too freely at all.
 
PHXinterrupted
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:29 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 5):
Because they have many Airbusses and are a large carrier. Besides, IIRC they are making profit on their international routes and losses on the domestic ones. Therefore they might want to expand their international business.

Yes, they are a larger carrier, but not a large international carrier.
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cloudyapple
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:30 am

JAL and ANA - they can afford A380s financially but not politically.
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WINGS
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:26 am

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 21):
JAL and ANA - they can afford A380s financially but not politically.

Good one Cloudyapple. Lets just hope that they change their mind as soon as they see they full potential of the A380.

Regards,
Wings
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mariner
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:30 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 19):
Airbus came to a weak and (then) dying USAirways and essentially said, "give us billions for planes and we'll give you hundreds of millions to operate with right now."

You know this is what happened? That's odd. As I understand it, the deal was engineered by GE.

GE needed someone to complete the package of financing basically to get US Airways off their hands and went to their pals at Airbus.

And while it is true that $250 million can be categorized as "hundreds of millions", I think your characterization is stretching it. To say the least.

As for United - well, they'll be competing qith the Qantas A380 on at least one route, and if Singapore does get rights to fly SYD/LAX I think you can bet they'd put the A380 on it.

 Smile

cheers

mariner
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sebolino
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:34 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 19):



Quoting Commavia (Reply 19):
-- you call a spade a spade, you call a "bribe" a "bribe." This was a legalized bribe.

I don't think that is using the word too freely at all.

No no. That's not too freely, that's just stupid.

You call "bribe", an help given by Airbus which can make them have a future customer ? LOL.
In which world are you living ?

Legalized bribe ? Is this a new concept invented for Airbus bashing ?
 
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:34 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 22):
Good one Cloudyapple. Lets just hope that they change their mind as soon as they see they full potential of the A380.

Hope schmope. They will decide to get it if they want it. It's clear that they don't want it, and it is conjecture that they need it.
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WINGS
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet

Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:41 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 25):
Hope schmope. They will decide to get it if they want it. It's clear that they don't want it, and it is conjecture that they need it.

Now we all know that if we change the letter A for a B, then the B380 would sell like hot cakes in Japan Big grin

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Wings
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Thorben
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:18 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
Just because an airline flies 777s and 747s doesn't mean they need A380s

Still more likely than an all-737 operator.

If an airline has 747s and 777s it is probably using them on intercontinental flights. And there the competition will sooner or later have the A380. Think about it, Virgin, Lufthansa, Air France, Korean, Singapore Airlines, Malaysian, Thai, Qantas, Korean, Emirates, Kingfisher, Etihad and others will come to the US with it. And they can offer the passengers way more comfort at a lower price. People will need a lot of patriotism to still fly American carriers with those 2nd best 767, 747, and 777 then.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
UA is a perfect example, as you used it -- they have both those aircraft, and have absolutely no need for the A380.

They'll have the need, but they won't have the money.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
If UA got A380s, it would be very senior current 744 pilots -- not A320 pilots -- that would be flying it.

Why? Have a 744 pilot close to his retirement do the extensive training that he would need then?? There are senior A320 pilots, too, I believe. And they would need a very short training and would feel at home in their new cockpit.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
Of the very few routes UA could perhaps operate the A380 profitably on (on a route-specific basis) like LAX-SYD, etc., the economics of operating an entire fleet of such enormous airplanes for only a tiny number of routes that could actually support that fleet would make it an uneconomic proposition.

You don't need extensive fleets to be profitable. They don't have to operate 56 of them. Most American carriers are loosing money despite their extensive fleets. Think about Thai, Malaysian, Korean, China Southern and Kingfisher. They have only ordered 5-6 of it. And think about all those carriers that make good business with only a handful of 747s, A340s or T7s.

Quoting Airlinelover (Reply 18):
Let's not forget that these 3 airlines don't WANT the A380.. It's not as much a matter of affording it..

Let's not forget they are all in or just out of Chapter 11. How could they buy it now. Should they say: "We just cut our pension obligations by a couple of billions and agreed with the unions on a billion dollar cut in wages. Oh, and before we forget, we just ordered a couple of planes for 285 million $ a piece in France." Funny idea, actually.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 19):
I'm really have a hard time getting them off the dealership lot



Quoting Commavia (Reply 19):
Knowing that their A350 is going absolutely nowhere compared to the blockbuster success of the 787, Airbus essentially offered US cash right now in return for a guarantee of airplane orders for their poorly selling A350 later.

 tired  What a lame provocation. Did your hear what Qatar Airways said after it announced its A350 order? By their own independent comparison the A350 emerged as the better plane compared to the 787. If I was a loudmouth like some people here, I'd be saying: "Boeing might as well kiss the 787 goodbye."  tombstone  But they'll sell some more of it, the Japanese are buying all Boeing, because they build half of it and the rest goes away for free. Indeed, Boeing seems to be giving the 787 away for a very low price.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 19):
you call a spade a spade, you call a "bribe" a "bribe." This was a legalized bribe

Bribes are illegal, you can't legalize them. But I guess it is hard to live with the fact that some American carriers buy huge numbers of Airbus planes.

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 21):
JAL and ANA - they can afford A380s financially but not politically.

I guess they'll order them when a dozen of foreign carriers fly them into NRT daily.
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Glareskin
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:29 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 27):
I guess they'll order them when a dozen of foreign carriers fly them into NRT daily.

No, cloudyapple is right. They will first buy it when it's called 747adv.  Wink
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cloudyapple
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:30 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 27):
I guess they'll order them when a dozen of foreign carriers fly them into NRT daily.

If they ever buy A380s they'll pack 800 seats on each and put them on domestics. If they have any spare then they'll put them onto LHR/LAX. I don't see this happening at all. Chances are slimmer if B confirms the 747A
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mariner
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:51 am

Doesn't anyone have sense of humor anymore? In this thread we have the collision of two airliners.net myths:

(i) Airbus gives its planes away for practically nothing and bribes airlines to take them.

(ii) Some airlines can't afford the A380 - even when they get bribes and free aircraft.

You can't pretend it is logical.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
ARCJET
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 5:52 am

I'm sure our US airlines are waiting for CRJs and ERJs that can perform trans-atlantic routes instead of spending the big bucks for the beautiful beast A380.
Charleston, SC
 
A360
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:01 am

Quoting ARCJET (Reply 31):
I'm sure our US airlines are waiting for CRJs and ERJs that can perform trans-atlantic routes instead of spending the big bucks for the beautiful beast A380.

Hehe! I'm imagining all those precious LHR slots filled with american CRJ's! Big grin
 
dan2002
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:03 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 27):
f an airline has 747s and 777s it is probably using them on intercontinental flights. And there the competition will sooner or later have the A380. Think about it, Virgin, Lufthansa, Air France, Korean, Singapore Airlines, Malaysian, Thai, Qantas, Korean, Emirates, Kingfisher, Etihad and others will come to the US with it. And they can offer the passengers way more comfort at a lower price. People will need a lot of patriotism to still fly American carriers with those 2nd best 767, 747, and 777 then.

Did I miss the memo that somehow proved B767, 777, and 747s are second best? Judging by other posts ive read from you, I bet if it were up to you every fucking plane in the world would be airbus, talk about patriotism there Thor.


Dan
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kappel
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:08 am

Quoting Dan2002 (Reply 33):
every fucking plane

Take a chill pill dude, no need for those words in here
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birdbrainz
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet

Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:12 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
United
Northwest
US Airways

Never mind the fact that all three are bankrupt. While it's true that US Air is just emerging, it has it's work cut out for the next three years just trying to make the whole HP/US thing work.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 27):
Why? Have a 744 pilot close to his retirement do the extensive training that he would need then?? There are senior A320 pilots, too, I believe. And they would need a very short training and would feel at home in their new cockpit.

Thorben, have you ever heard of a seniority list? It means that the most senior pilots get to fly what they choose. If UA got the 380, they'd put out bids to their pilots to fly it, and the most senior pilots who aren't too close to retirement will get the bids if they want them. It's that simple.
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Thorben
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RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:45 am

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 28):
No, cloudyapple is right. They will first buy it when it's called 747adv.

Na na, I've said it often enough, the market is going towards more point to point flights with smaller aircraft. At least in Boeing's world, so they are probably thinking about a 717 ULR, with raked wings and other things. Besides, 4 engines r 4 wimps. Remember?

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 29):
If they ever buy A380s they'll pack 800 seats on each and put them on domestics. If they have any spare then they'll put them onto LHR/LAX. I don't see this happening at all. Chances are slimmer if B confirms the 747A

See above.

(Man, Japanese domestic flights  crowded  )

Quoting Mariner (Reply 30):
Doesn't anyone have sense of humor anymore? In this thread we have the collision of two airliners.net myths:

(i) Airbus gives its planes away for practically nothing and bribes airlines to take them.

(ii) Some airlines can't afford the A380 - even when they get bribes and free aircraft.

You can't pretend it is logical.

I guess it ain't logical, but it's pretty funny!  slaphappy 

Dan2002, I won't quote you because I don't want to have my post deleted because of a quote of a deleted one. Why would I want every plane to be an Airbus? Without competition by Boeing Airbus would not be producing good aircraft. Boeing makes fine aircraft, I know that, but I need to respond to the Boeing fans that yell around wrong things about the A340 and A380.

Compared to an A380 Boeing 747, 767, and 777 are second best, at least in my humble opinion. Why? Because the A380 is so efficient that it can give every passenger 35% more space than the aircraft mentioned above and still have lower per-seat-costs.

I know what corner you're trying to put me in by calling me "Thor", but I'll just ignore it, because it isn't true.

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 35):
Never mind the fact that all three are bankrupt

Indeed, I never doubted that, did I?

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 35):
Thorben, have you ever heard of a seniority list?

Nope.

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 35):
It means that the most senior pilots get to fly what they choose. If UA got the 380, they'd put out bids to their pilots to fly it, and the most senior pilots who aren't too close to retirement will get the bids if they want them. It's that simple.

OK, but a 744 pilot would need more training (which is expensive) than an A320 pilot in order to get the A380 license. So it would be cheaper to use A320 pilots. It's not Airbus' fault if the airlines don't use that to save costs.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
dazeflight
Posts: 481
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 1999 1:32 am

RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:49 am

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 35):
Thorben, have you ever heard of a seniority list? It means that the most senior pilots get to fly what they choose. If UA got the 380, they'd put out bids to their pilots to fly it, and the most senior pilots who aren't too close to retirement will get the bids if they want them. It's that simple.

well considering a lot of A.net members suggest that a 'real' pilot would never fly a yokeless plane there shouldn't be too many jumbo pilots who apply for the A380.  Silly
 
daron4000
Posts: 604
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:17 pm

RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:50 am

Actually, I think there are enough routes for UA to justify an A380 if they ever were proftible enough to make enough money to finance it by themselves. On top of my head comes ORD-HKG, LAX/SFO-SYD, SFO-HKG and some from SFO/ORD-NRT too. Maybe IAD-FRA.
 
dan2002
Posts: 2024
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2002 7:11 am

RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:01 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 36):
but I need to respond to the Boeing fans that yell around wrong things about the A340 and A380.

Ok, but I need to respond to Thor that yells around wrong things about the B747 and B777.

You have no way to prove what you are saying about Boeing and Airbus. Period.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 36):
Compared to an A380 Boeing 747, 767, and 777 are second best, at least in my humble opinion. Why? Because the A380 is so efficient that it can give every passenger 35% more space than the aircraft mentioned above and still have lower per-seat-costs.



No. In reality, the 767 is nowhere close to the A380. They dont even compete, not in the slightest. The 767 series carries between 180-230 Pax, while the A380 will carry 500+. The 777 carries between 300 and 360 pax. Hell, the 747 isnt really a big competitor either. And you dont know how the airlines are going to configure the A380 yet, or the fuel burn or anything really. Yeah 35% more space, with what, 300 pax? Of course there will be more space, its the largest commercial aircraft, ever. Thank you Mr. Obvious.
Im actucally supprised some of the more knowladgeable members hav'nt responded to you yet with some hard facts, as they usually do.

Dan
A guy asks 'What's Punk?'. I kick over a trash can and its punk. He knocks over a trash can and its trendy.
 
EmmenezMoi
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:31 am

RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:08 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):

You don't have to. Airbus' actions with the US reorganization (and I'm not criticizing them by the way, just calling them what they are) speak for themselves.

You might want to check the definition of "bribe" in a dictionary... (hint: you can't bribe a company, only persons)
PNC aux portes!
 
dazeflight
Posts: 481
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 1999 1:32 am

RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:17 am

Quoting Dan2002 (Reply 39):
Yeah 35% more space, with what, 300 pax? Of course there will be more space, its the largest commercial aircraft, ever. Thank you Mr. Obvious.

It's not so obvious at all, because Airbus claims that there is 35% more space per pax in a typical layout.

ciao
Daniel
 
dan2002
Posts: 2024
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2002 7:11 am

RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:25 am

Quoting Dazeflight (Reply 41):
It's not so obvious at all, because Airbus claims that there is 35% more space per pax in a typical layout.

ciao
Daniel

Keywords here Airbus claims!, whenever a manufacturer claims something, I wouldnt take it 100%, be it Boeing or Airbus.

Tschüs  Wink
Dan
A guy asks 'What's Punk?'. I kick over a trash can and its punk. He knocks over a trash can and its trendy.
 
Thorben
Posts: 2713
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:29 pm

RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:27 am

Quoting Dan2002 (Reply 39):
Ok, but I need to respond to Thor that yells around wrong things about the B747 and B777.

Which wrong things?

Quoting Dan2002 (Reply 39):
You have no way to prove what you are saying about Boeing and Airbus. Period.

Prove what?

Quoting Dan2002 (Reply 39):
No. In reality, the 767 is nowhere close to the A380. They dont even compete, not in the slightest. The 767 series carries between 180-230 Pax, while the A380 will carry 500+. The 777 carries between 300 and 360 pax. Hell, the 747 isnt really a big competitor either. quote]

Who cares about the size? I said airlines will compete on the same routes with those aircraft. For example, FRA to an American destination, LH will use the A380, UA the 747, AA the 777, and DL the 763. Same thing for many other routes. So who would you fly with??

[quote=Dan2002,reply=39]And you dont know how the airlines are going to configure the A380 yet, or the fuel burn or anything really.

I quote: "According to Airbus, the A380 has about a 13 percent lower fuel burn than the 747 and is the first long-haul aircraft to consume less than 3 liters of fuel per passenger over 100 km -- said to be as efficient as an average family car."

Source: http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/04/26/airbus.launch/

Less tha 3 liters on a hundred kilometers. Not bad, hm? But it is getting even better:

I quote: "A380, which completed its ninth test flight over the weekend, has exceeded its fuel burn goals, Airbus sources told ATWOnline."

Source: http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=1136

Quoting Dan2002 (Reply 39):
Yeah 35% more space, with what, 300 pax? Of course there will be more space, its the largest commercial aircraft, ever. Thank you Mr. Obvious.

OK, I admit,  guilty  I mixed up figures here. The truth is indeed:

I quote: "With 555 passengers, the A380 represents a 35 % increase over the 747-400 in standard three-class configuration, along with a nearly 50% larger cabin volume - meaning much more space per passenger."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A380

Quoting Dan2002 (Reply 39):
Im actucally supprised some of the more knowladgeable members hav'nt responded to you yet with some hard facts, as they usually do.

Now tell me, who is telling wrong things, who lacks proof and who is having the hard facts??
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
c5onknees
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:54 am

RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:30 am

I honestly dont see the huge deal with the A380, wow.. it's a double decker with alot of seats. Lockheed did this in the 70's but did'nt add seats and call it an airliner. It does'nt seem like a very fun airplane to fly in my opinion, it's completely fly-by-wire and does'nt take any real talent to land when it tells you when to flare, etc. Don't get me wrong it'll be great for some airlines, but not for all. And has Airbus yet to be successful to with the emergency evac in under 90 seconds? No hard feelings, b/c I know somebody on here is bound and determined to flame me with something about the A380.

Cheers
 
commavia
Posts: 9781
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:32 am

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 24):
You call "bribe", an help given by Airbus which can make them have a future customer ? LOL. In which world are you living ?

To answer your first question -- yes. That is exactly what I call Airbus "helping" a customer to make it a bigger "future customer." When I come to you and essentially say, "If I give you $X now, you guarantee to give me $X later, and not give it to my competitor." That is, IMO, the definition of a bribe. As to the second question -- I'm living in the same world you are, whether you like it (or accept it) or not.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 27):
Have a 744 pilot close to his retirement do the extensive training that he would need then??

That's right. Nine times out of ten, that's how it works in the United States. Senior Captains -- at the top of the seniority list -- get first choice at flying new, big planes. A 12-year A320 captain isn't going to be flying the A380 for quite a while.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 27):
You don't need extensive fleets to be profitable.

No, but you do need them to minimize the cost of inefficiency. Flying a fleet only a few planes (in the case of UA, I'd say 8-10 would be more than enough), is simply inefficient and costs too much. It doesn't make sense to pay for maintenance, spare parts, equipment, servicing, logistics, training, crews, scheduling, etc., all for a fleet of 10 planes. It's a total waste. Just ask DL -- with their enormous fleet of 8 777s -- how they're doing. And that's not even the same case as UA -- DL needs the 777s to fly to NRT because no other DL planes can do it. UA already has planes in its fleet that can fly every route the A380 would be operationally able to.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 27):
Most American carriers are loosing money despite their extensive fleets.

I don't think you understand my point. It's not about the size of their fleet (per se). AA, with the world's largest fleet, is profitable. CO, with a considerably smaller fleet, also is. DL, NW and UA, all with fleets in between, are bankrupt. Obviously -- the size of the overall fleet has absolutely nothing to do with it. The size of smaller fleets of specific aircraft types matter. Just look at AA. They are ringing out inefficiency by reducing fleets and subfleets, and it appears to be working pretty well for them.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 27):
Did your hear what Qatar Airways said after it announced its A350 order? By their own independent comparison the A350 emerged as the better plane compared to the 787.

Yeah -- Airbus is really cleaning up with the A350, which hasn't even been officially announced yet, and which to date has secured a whopping 125 order for the plane (48% of which are from a single airline). The 787, by contrast, has sold 167 aircraft from 13 airlines. So yeah, QR may have deemed the A350 better than the 787. Good for them. But obviously some airlines -- like CO, NW, AC, JL, NH, and KE -- disagree.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 27):
Bribes are illegal, you can't legalize them.

No offence, I'm choking with laughter.
 
dan2002
Posts: 2024
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2002 7:11 am

RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:35 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 43):
Which wrong things?

Re-read the thread on LH and the 777 and get back to me.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 43):
Prove what?

ditto.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 43):
quote: "According to Airbus, the A380 has about a 13 percent lower fuel burn than the 747 and is the first long-haul aircraft to consume less than 3 liters of fuel per passenger over 100 km -- said to be as efficient as an average family car."

Source: http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/04/26/airbus.launch/

Less tha 3 liters on a hundred kilometers. Not bad, hm? But it is getting even better:

I quote: "A380, which completed its ninth test flight over the weekend, has exceeded its fuel burn goals, Airbus sources told ATWOnline."

Source: http://www.atwonline.com/news/story....=1136

All of these things are according to Airbus. Of course manuf. are going to throw big numbers out there to dazzle people.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 43):
OK, I admit, I mixed up figures here. The truth is indeed:

I quote: "With 555 passengers, the A380 represents a 35 % increase over the 747-400 in standard three-class configuration, along with a nearly 50% larger cabin volume - meaning much more space per passenger."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A380

Yes, over the 744, you cannot compare the cabin space of the A380 to the 767 or 777.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 43):
Now tell me, who is telling wrong things, who lacks proof and who is having the hard facts??

Read your posts in the LH 777 topic.


Dan
A guy asks 'What's Punk?'. I kick over a trash can and its punk. He knocks over a trash can and its trendy.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18253
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:42 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 45):
To answer your first question -- yes. That is exactly what I call Airbus "helping" a customer to make it a bigger "future customer."

So - um - what do you call it when Boeing "invests" a big bunch of money in AirTran - right before Airtran orders a big bunch of Beoings?

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Thorben
Posts: 2713
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:29 pm

RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:51 am

Quoting Dan2002 (Reply 46):
Re-read the thread on LH and the 777 and get back to me

I did. Now, which one of them is not OK?

Quoting Dan2002 (Reply 46):
All of these things are according to Airbus. Of course manuf. are going to throw big numbers out there to dazzle people.

Who else are they supposed to be from? We'll see what the carriers say by the time they use them.

Quoting Dan2002 (Reply 46):
Yes, over the 744, you cannot compare the cabin space of the A380 to the 767 or 777.

Why? I don't think there would be much of a difference.

Quoting Dan2002 (Reply 46):
Read your posts in the LH 777 topic.

Yes, and??

Quoting Commavia (Reply 45):
Flying a fleet only a few planes (in the case of UA, I'd say 8-10 would be more than enough), is simply inefficient and costs too much.

But still there are carriers out there that have only that many of a certain type.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 45):
UA already has planes in its fleet that can fly every route the A380 would be operationally able to.

It's main purpose is not to explore new routes, it is supposed to allow growth on routes to airports with restricted slots.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 45):
Yeah -- Airbus is really cleaning up with the A350, which hasn't even been officially announced yet

From what I've heard the official launch will be in October.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 45):
which to date has secured a whopping 125 order for the plane (48% of which are from a single airline). The 787, by contrast, has sold 167 aircraft from 13 airlines.

Not bad, considering that the 787 has been around longer.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 45):
So yeah, QR may have deemed the A350 better than the 787. Good for them. But obviously some airlines -- like CO, NW, AC, JL, NH, and KE -- disagree.

Good for them, indeed. But be honest, orders by JL and NH do not really count, because a large part of the 787 comes from Japan and the big Japanese companies are all related to each other. (Meaning, they own shares of one another.) So the Japanese carriers always buy Boeing.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
commavia
Posts: 9781
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: The A380, Airlines That Can`t Afford Them, Yet.

Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:11 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 47):
So - um - what do you call it when Boeing "invests" a big bunch of money in AirTran - right before Airtran orders a big bunch of Beoings?

Bribery!!! I don't discriminate. Boeing "helping" a customer to secure an order is just as much bribery as Airbus doing it with US. They are one in the same.

And again -- for about the millionth time -- I'm not attacking Airbus. I firmly think that this was a brilliant strategic move on their part. They are basically putting up a relatively small amount now in order to get a huge return later. They are basically locking up a customer and guaranteeing that their competitor doesn't get business. That's bribery, but it's also reality. It's smart, and I'm not criticizing Airbus for it.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 48):
But still there are carriers out there that have only that many of a certain type.

In the developing world, not many, and in the U.S. -- even less. DL comes to mind. They have tiny subfleets of, for example, MD90s and 777s, and we see how great they're doing.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 48):
It's main purpose is not to explore new routes, it is supposed to allow growth on routes to airports with restricted slots.

None of the airlines you mention really need the plane for "growth on route sto airports with restricted slots." The reason? The airports of which you speak are -- hark! -- expanding as well! The only severely capacity-constricted airport I can think of that really has no major prospect for recent expansion, but which airlines are dying to get into, is Heathrow. But just about every other major airport in the world that needs more capacity is slowly getting it, which is why airlines are slowly reducing aircraft size -- more competition and more airport capacity is eliminating the need for huge jumbojets.

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