SkyexRamper
Posts: 1952
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Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:09 am

To: All Midwest and Skyway Airlines Employees
Date: September 21, 2005
From: Scott Dickson
Subject: Upcoming Fleet Change

As part of our ongoing efforts to operate as efficiently and productively as possible, we are planning a change to our MD-80 fleet. Beginning in mid-December, we will be removing our three MD-81 aircraft --which are configured for Signature Service with 116 seats -- from scheduled service. We will be retaining one of the MD-81s as a system spare and have yet to decide the future of the other two. With fuel prices at near-record high levels, these aircraft are the least fuel-efficient in our fleet, based on the number of seats they carry.

To replace the flying done by the MD-80s, we will be using the new Boeing 717 aircraft that we will receive in December and the 717 available due to our suspension of service to New Orleans. This will result in several scheduling changes, including: Transitioning all Midwest Airlines service between Milwaukee and the East Coast to Boeing 717 aircraft. Changing our San Francisco service from Signature to Saver Service, including San Francisco-Kansas City and the continuing same-plane service to Milwaukee. This move also introduces Saver Service to Kansas City.

Our Boeing 717s burn about 350 gallons less fuel per hour than the MD-81s, making them a more fuel-efficient choice. Additionally, the MD-81s are much more maintenance-intensive than the 717s. We expect the switch will save several million dollars annually.

Although the transition to smaller aircraft on some routes will result in a slight overall capacity reduction, we are pleased to be able to maintain our presence and frequency in all of our current markets. We also expect to benefit from an improved ability to yield manage seats on those routes.

Please note that this decision does not impact the eight MD-82 and MD-88 aircraft in our fleet, which are Saver Service aircraft with 143 or 147 seats. With more seats, per-seat fuel use on those aircraft is at an acceptable level.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
TWA902fly
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Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:31 am

I think the newsletter fails to mention something sort of obvious - the signature service is failing - people need cheaper tickets - not hot meals and big seats out of kansas city. If the 116 'business' seats brought in as much money (which theyre supposed to - at least) as the 143/147 seat planes - then there wouldnt be a problem. I see this as them saying ' our signature product is failing - people arent buying and arent paying enough' it would work if signature seats cost more than saver seats, but i guess in order to fill them YX is making them cheaper - and so 143 seats for less money make more money than the 116 seats.

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
SkyexRamper
Posts: 1952
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Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:11 am

Yep...90% of people just want a ride to a city and maybe the usual can of soda and very light snack. The era of luxury travel for the average person is over. I just don't see why YX doesn't just convert all MD-80s to Saver Service.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
irelayer
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Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:26 am

Kind of sad too because I've heard the Signature Service is pretty awesome!. Why not just install a two-class on all the aircraft...say 10/100 Signature/Saver. It would be like AirTran/Spirit business class...

-IR
 
SkyexRamper
Posts: 1952
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Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:14 am

Quoting IRelayer (Reply 3):

Because Midwest offers only first class service no matter what seat you have.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
blsbls99
Posts: 341
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Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:27 am

So, maybe their service levels stay the same, they just change their cabin configuration, so there is an upgraded cabin that offers better seat pitch (similar to business or first class on other carriers) and then a standard cabin (which would be equivalent to economy or economy plus on other carriers).
319 320 313 722 732 733 735 73G 738 739 742 752 763 772 CRJ D9S ERJ EMB L10 M88 M90 SF3 AT4
 
COEWR
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Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:34 am

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 4):
Because Midwest offers only first class service no matter what seat you have.

unless its a saver service plane.

-C
 
SkyexRamper
Posts: 1952
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Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 5:03 am

Quoting COEWR (Reply 6):

No, the service (not seating) is still "first class" doesn't matter what seat you're in whether its leather or cloth.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
AirWillie6475
Posts: 2372
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Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 5:11 am

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 4):
Because Midwest offers only first class service no matter what seat you have.

I find this hard to believe. I just checked prices from LAX to MCI and it was 200 R/T on the 717 which has 88 seats. How does Midwest make any money?
 
grrtvc
Posts: 188
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Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 5:30 am

Surprised no one has started floating the FL/YX rumor again considering that YX will now be an all B712 operator.

I'm not suggesting it start!!!

GRRTVC
 
srbmod
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Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 5:36 am

Quoting GRRTVC (Reply 9):
Surprised no one has started floating the FL/YX rumor again considering that YX will now be an all B712 operator.

The MD-80 is not quite done @ YX:

Quoting Skyexramper (Thread starter):

Please note that this decision does not impact the eight MD-82 and MD-88 aircraft in our fleet, which are Saver Service aircraft with 143 or 147 seats. With more seats, per-seat fuel use on those aircraft is at an acceptable level.

I almost wonder if it would be worth acquiring some MD-90s to replace the MD-80 fleet or perhaps maybe pick up a few more MD-88s or maybe if they can find any, MD-87s.
 
as739x
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Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 5:43 am

So what are YX MD-81's that fly SFO-MCI configured to? And they will be what? Why not just fly the 717 on MCI-SFO?

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
flashmeister
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Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 5:43 am

Suggest that the title be changed to exactly what the press release says. This is Midwest parking MD-81s, not MD-82 or MD-88 aircraft. Misleading.
 
sideflare75
Posts: 417
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Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 5:50 am

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 2):
I just don't see why YX doesn't just convert all MD-80s to Saver Service.

After this they will be. Not counting the two charter 80's. That's the point.

Quoting AS739X (Reply 11):
So what are YX MD-81's that fly SFO-MCI configured to? And they will be what?

Answer:

Quoting Skyexramper (Thread starter):
Changing our San Francisco service from Signature to Saver Service, including San Francisco-Kansas City and the continuing same-plane service to Milwaukee.
 
geg2rap
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:45 am

Quoting COEWR (Reply 6):
Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 4):
Because Midwest offers only first class service no matter what seat you have.

unless its a saver service plane.

I would disagree, even on the MKE-TPA runs in saver YX offers far superior service to the NW/DL/UA option.
Hope this all works out the YX service is much enjoyed in MSP
 
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JBo
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:12 am

*sigh* You people like TWA902fly certainly come off with a rather narrowminded perspective on the YX signature service.

Does the history of YX need to be brought up again? The airline used to have ONLY the signature service fleetwide. And, believe it or not, it actually generated profit!! *gasp!*

Yes, the travel climate has changed. Yes, there's more leisure travel than business travel now, but you know what? That's not what's hurting YX so much as the two following words:

*FUEL PRICES*

Seriously...it seems like all the people who are naysaying the YX Signature service saying it's failing and all this stuff almost always credit the changing market climate as the underlying factor without giving a second look to the price of fuel.

If fuel prices were where they were a couple years ago, Midwest - and many other airlines - would be faring MUCH better in the overall economic climate.

Not that the shift in the travel market has nothing to do with it - it does, but it's not nearly as huge as a factor as some of the A.net armchair CEOs make it out to be.

Why should Midwest get rid of the service that made its success? Fuel prices will hopefully not stay this high forever. It's bound to change one way or another eventually. Can one not be optimistic rather than pessimistic?

For that matter, the economy is bound to change course as well. This all comes in cycles...anyone whose taken a basic economics class knows this.

The MD-81s could possibly return to service sometime in the future. Nothing is impossible, remember that.

Furthermore, I think that Midwest has guts by doing what they can to maintain their trademark service - which, I hate to tell you, even the "average Joe" traveler notices more often than not the difference in service - instead of conforming to what everyone thinks they should do.

Follow your own road.

I grow tired of ignorant naysayers who think they know what's right for a company without looking at the entire picture rather than just a few aspects, or see things in black and white rather than seeing a middle road.

OK, rant over...I now return you to your regularly scheduled doldrums.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
LGA777
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:22 am

If NW has to downsize the MKE Focus City could be a victim, while this would help YX I would think they would want to have more capacity, not less ?

LGA777
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:48 am

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 10):
I almost wonder if it would be worth acquiring some MD-90s

Might DL be selling?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
TWA902fly
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:07 am

Quoting JBo (Reply 15):
*sigh* You people like TWA902fly certainly come off with a rather narrowminded perspective on the YX signature service.

Does the history of YX need to be brought up again? The airline used to have ONLY the signature service fleetwide. And, believe it or not, it actually generated profit!! *gasp!*

Hey im not being narrowminded - dont directly insult people until you know completely what they think. I think the signature service was a good idea - until it started losing money. It is losing money for the same reasons as everyone else - competition/overcapacity/fuel prices. NW is doing damage in MKE - this is one example of it. Signature Service was a good idea when people had money - people dont have as much money to spend these days. Especially out of Kansas City - where Southwest has a presence. Businesses (which 'signature service' is targeted to) dont want to pay them for it anymore. also i think they should have stuck to one product - signature or saver - i think for an airline as small as them it confused their small customer base - and they were dissapointed. I know people who drive frmo chicago to milwaukee to fly their signature service - except it doesnt exist mostly anymore. Theres no signature service demand out of second hand US cities such as Milwaukee, Omaha and Kansas City. Even Legend couldn't make it work at Dallas - and Dallas is a much more business-filled city than MKE OMA MCI - i think the new generation of business only airlines is being catered to very well by United p.s. and the London-NYC start-ups. We will see how those turn out. I think any business class demand is provided for in the markets mentioned (MCI MKE OMA) by larger, older airlines, which have and will have a dedicated customer base. So no i didn't give up on the signature service before giving it a chance - i used logical reasoning - if there are no airlines in areas like Chicago, Houston, Los Angeles, Bay Area which are all business, and the previous example (Legend) failed - i dont really see how YX excepts to play the game in this day in age flying their business-class-first-class-service-only jets out of MKE and MCI. Theres no demand - at least they are adapting to what people need - a cheap seat from A to B. They serve the MKE market well - but until recently they were the only airline with a large presense there - and not everyone flying out of MKE needed or could pay for a business class seat.

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
longhaulheavy
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:28 am

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 18):
Signature Service was a good idea when people had money - people dont have as much money to spend these days.

 scratchchin 
 
as739x
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:36 am

Sideflare, I dont know jack about Signature and Savor, thats why Im asking!

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
flyXJT
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:06 am

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 18):
Even Legend couldn't make it work at Dallas

The biggest reason that Legend didn't survive is they barely had enough money to run a start-up in the first place. It always takes a few months before new airlines start carrying profitable loads, and with the constant legal battles with AA surrounding DAL and the Wright, they lost all the money they had that could have absorbed the first few months.

Another reason is that many many larger companies have contracts with airlines (AA wouldn't run a 777 into RDU just for the hell of it), and in Dallas DL and AA both had sizable operations, and held a majority of the contracts. MKE, on the other hand, was falling by the wayside as airlines lost interest, so when YX moved into town, the business traveler now had more non-stop choices whenever, and companies started lining up to use YX to send their employees from point A to point B.

The model worked when passengers and companies had enough money that service was something you shopped for. Now and days with gas and jet fuel being so high, and no recent COLA adjustments for the majority, the economy is in the dumps and the airlines are feeling it hard.

It shouldn't cost less to fly from Milwaukee to Orlando than to drive from here to there but, lately it has been.

Who woulda ever thought it would be cheaper to take an airbus than a greyhound bus?


pw
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:47 am

Quoting GRRTVC (Reply 9):
Surprised no one has started floating the FL/YX rumor again considering that YX will now be an all B712 operator.

Now see what you done done? I heard that the FL/ yx is circulating the halls at AirTran... They may absorb YX and make a MKE crew base, which is what one of the FL F/As have told me
Puhdiddle
 
sideflare75
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:32 am

Quoting AS739X (Reply 20):
Sideflare, I dont know jack about Signature and Savor, thats why Im asking!

That's why I was showing you the answer to your question. Didn't mean to offend.
 
sideflare75
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:56 am

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 18):
NW is doing damage in MKE - this is one example of it.

I don't think this decision has anything to do with NW. They are not really hurting YX at all. Market share has been increasing in MKE steadily and NW has been going down even with their increased flights. Here are the results from June as posted by Knope2001 on the Yahoo message board:

"MKE numbers for June are out, and the results follow the pattern of prior months. Midwest has a significant year-over-year market share gain at the expense of nearly all other carriers:"

……. 2004 ….. 2005 …..
YX … 38.8 ….. 46.5 … + 7.7
NW ... 22.1 ….. 21.2 ….. -0.9
DL ….. 8.8 ….... 6.7 ….. -2.1
UA ….. 6.4 ….... 5.6 ….. -0.8
AA ….. 4.8 ….... 4.9 … + 0.1
CO ….. 3.7 ….... 3.8 … + 0.1
FL …... 5.5 ….... 3.8 ….. -1.7
US ….. 3.3 ….... 3.3 ….. ..0.0
F9 …... 2.1 ….... 2.0 ….. -0.1
HP ….. 2.2 ….... 1.9 ….. -0.3
AC ….. 0.6 ….... 0.3 ….. -0.2
TZ …... 1.5 ….... 0.0 ….. -1.5

That clearly shows that NW is not the reason. I feel the reason is just a cost issue. Nothing more than that. The signature 80's only fly to 4 places from MKE and the flights will still be signature just on 717's. Yes we lose a few seats but if it saves money then it must be done. Can't wait around and hope it improves.

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 18):
i think for an airline as small as them it confused their small customer base - and they were dissapointed. I know people who drive frmo chicago to milwaukee to fly their signature service - except it doesnt exist mostly anymore.

Doesn't look like 46% of the people flying from MKE in June were confused. I don't see why it's so confusing. As for Signature not existing anymore, we have 27 planes in Signature configuration and only 8 in Saver. That's a pretty big difference.
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:48 pm

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 22):
I heard that the FL/ yx is circulating the halls at AirTran... They may absorb YX and make a MKE crew base, which is what one of the FL F/As have told me

I don't even want to hear about FL and YX and merger in the same sentence ever again.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
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Bruce
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:38 pm

What are the registrations of these aircraft?

bruce
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
sideflare75
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:01 pm

Quoting Bruce (Reply 26):
What are the registrations of these aircraft?

N806/807/813ME.
 
sideflare75
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:33 pm

Quoting Sideflare75 (Reply 27):
Quoting Bruce (Reply 26):
What are the registrations of these aircraft?

N806/807/813ME.

Sorry I should have said that these may not be the planes leaving. They may decide to keep one or two of these and park some of the others, then just reconfigure 2 of these. Since 806 & 807 are the same as 6 others (803/4/5/8/9) it would make sense to keep them. That would leave 812/813/814 out in the cold. But that might make too much sense.
 
access-air
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:43 pm

I'll give you all the two magic words that other than rising fuel costs that are killing airlines....ready? You wont belive this....Ok its... INTERNET BOOKINGS.
Since airlines decided it was cheaper, Yeah right, to distribute consumer direct via the good ole internet, they all have been losing money out the arse. Why is this? Because back prior to 1996 when the easiest way to get a cheap airline ticket was thru a Travel Agent, we all strove to get the cheapest fares and often did. When Delta introduced commsion cuts in mid 1996 and ever airline was monkey see monkey do over it, Thats when Travel Agencies had to start charging their pesky little fees for the hard work they do.
On the other hand the airlines could have kept us in the loop but chose to take the meager 10% commision they gave us and pass it on as a thdiscount on to the consumer and now they are happily losing money hand over fist becaue they have conditioned everyone into thinking that they should all travel coast to coast and just about everywhere for less that 200 dollars round trip.
The airlines said they would save millions per year by eventually kinifing Travel Agents in the back, guess what???? That wasnt enuff to do the trick and it also eliminated in a BIG WAY one of its distribution avenues. Guess what folks, DIY is not always the answer!!!!
As for MidEx, If all the rest of America wasnt flying always expecting cheaper than Greyhound fares on airlines, then Maybe the larger signature MD-81s would stay, as would the Signature service. If half the travelling public ever had the Pleasure of Flying on MIdEx and their Signature service they WOULD pay a little more!!! I certainly would for the bigger seats and they Extra Care in the Air....

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
D950
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:09 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):
Might DL be selling?

Probably not, but SAS is. Also the ex Southeast MD88's are still parked with relatively low hours

Quoting Flashmeister (Reply 12):
Suggest that the title be changed to exactly what the press release says. This is Midwest parking MD-81s, not MD-82 or MD-88 aircraft. Misleading

The title is Midwest parks MD81's, what's the issue??
Resting on your laurels is a synonym for flirting with disaster
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:29 pm

Quoting D950 (Reply 30):
The title is Midwest parks MD81's, what's the issue??

The title originally read, Midwest Parks MD-80s.

Kudos to Skyexramper for making the correction.  checkmark 
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
RJNUT
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:02 pm

Right on Access Air...
The internet is ALL ABOUT selling down...!!!!!
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Fri Sep 23, 2005 12:03 am

Quoting GRRTVC (Reply 9):
YX will now be an all B712 operator

How so? Did the paragraph below appear in the Midwest press release, or is it just my imagination... (boldface added)

Quoting Skyexramper (Thread starter):
Please note that this decision does not impact the eight MD-82 and MD-88 aircraft in our fleet, which are Saver Service aircraft with 143 or 147 seats. With more seats, per-seat fuel use on those aircraft is at an acceptable level.
 
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Bruce
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:56 am

Quoting Sideflare75 (Reply 28):
Sorry I should have said that these may not be the planes leaving. They may decide to keep one or two of these and park some of the others, then just reconfigure 2 of these. Since 806 & 807 are the same as 6 others (803/4/5/8/9) it would make sense to keep them. That would leave 812/813/814 out in the cold. But that might make too much sense.

Well in the memo above Scott Dickson says they are parking their 3 116-seat planes..so you are saying that 806/807/813 are the only signitature service 116 seat planes? I doubt they'd be parking 808/809 because those are converted MD-82.

bruce
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
srbmod
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Fri Sep 23, 2005 4:52 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):

Might DL be selling?

Considering how small the fleet is, and the fact that DL is planning to retire 4 a/c types (762, 732?, 733?, MD-90?) in the near future, those a/c could be available.
 
sideflare75
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:57 am

Quoting Bruce (Reply 34):
Well in the memo above Scott Dickson says they are parking their 3 116-seat planes..so you are saying that 806/807/813 are the only signitature service 116 seat planes? I doubt they'd be parking 808/809 because those are converted MD-82.

Yes those three are the signature service 80's, but what I was trying to add was they could keep two of those and park two others. It wouldn't take long to reconfigure to saver. That way if we kept 806 & 807 we would at least have all the ex-JAS planes and could park the ex-SAS planes. Except the one for the spare.

I have a feeling they will look at which planes need the heaviest checks in the near future and park them. That would make the most sense monetarily I guess.

And you are correct 808/809&810 are the 82's with more payload so I'm sure those three will stay.
 
FutureFO
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:56 am

Can't park 804/805 as those are the charter birds for KC and MKE sports teams.


Sean from MCO and IND
I Don't know where I am anymore
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:14 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 8):
I find this hard to believe. I just checked prices from LAX to MCI and it was 200 R/T on the 717 which has 88 seats. How does Midwest make any money?

They only have to sell 46 of those 88 seats to turn a profit. That's why they are successful.
 
sideflare75
Posts: 417
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:25 am

Quoting FutureFO (Reply 37):
Can't park 804/805 as those are the charter birds for KC and MKE sports teams.

Actually I've heard it mentioned that those two might be the candidates. I don't know the reason but I do remember hearing that somewhere along the line. All we would have to do is make something else the charter birds that's all. I guess we will know for sure in a couple of months. Not that it really matters which ones go. I still think the decision will be tied to upcoming maintenance requirements though.
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:09 pm

Quoting Skyexramper (Reply 25):
I don't even want to hear about FL and YX and merger in the same sentence ever again.

Ok, Let me fix that then.

1. I heard from an FL employee that something is going to happen.
2. Apparently YX may be absorbed.

There ya are... 2 sentences basically detailing the same thing. Happy?  

BTW -- I hope you know I'm just messing with ya. It isn't that I'd like to see it happen, but if it does, my best friend will be moving to the new MKE base  Smile

[Edited 2005-09-23 14:10:51]
Puhdiddle
 
LGA777
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RE: Midwest Parks MD-81s!

Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:11 am

I would hope of the three -81's they plan to park they would keep 813 as the spare as this is still the only MD81/82/88 they ever got painted in the full YX current scheme. Perhaps others will painted sometime in the future but for now only 813 looks this great ! All the others just have the partial hybrid scheme.


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