hisham
Posts: 681
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 1999 11:32 pm

Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Thu May 11, 2000 3:20 am

While planning a trip to denver (from Beirut), I find out that united (the hubing airline) doesn't operate any transatlantic flights form there. How come? It would have been possible for me to get there with only one stop in Europe.
BA is the only airline that operates from Europe. Unfortunetly, they fly from Gatwick. I can't get there, by plane at least.
My itinerary now is BEY- AMS- DTW- DEN with KLM and Northwest. Anybody has a better idea?
Hisham.
 
UAL747
Posts: 6725
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 1999 5:42 am

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Thu May 11, 2000 3:25 am

I would steer clear of NW in the states. Not one of our better airlines. Why don't you fly BA to LHR and then LHR to ORD via American or United, (nice 777 flights) then fly from ORD to Denver. That would be my choice.
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
TWFirst
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Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Thu May 11, 2000 3:30 am

OH PLEASE, UAL747, as if United domestically is any better than Northwest. Let's not be biased here and help the chap out - his goal is a one stop connection  .

Hisham - Would it be possible for you to fly out of Tel Aviv? If so, you could make a one-stop connection in New York on Continental.

An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
desertjets
Posts: 7575
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 3:12 pm

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Thu May 11, 2000 3:51 am

United has applied for route authority for LHR-DEN... which despite the open skies agreement may not come through, since BA operates their flight from Gatwick. But you could try Air France to CDG, I am sure they fly from Beruit, and take CO to Newark or Houston to connect to Denver.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
UAL747
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Joined: Mon Dec 13, 1999 5:42 am

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Thu May 11, 2000 3:59 am

Im sorry TWFirst. It might be an interesting experience for him to fly on the oldest flying passenger planes in the US with Northwest. And by the way, I was in no way being biased in favor of United. I prefer American anyway.
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
Heinz
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2000 1:34 am

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Thu May 11, 2000 4:11 am

Northwest sure don't operate the most modern equipment to Europe. I happened to see N601US in Amsterdam a few months ago, which, although
it was painted beautifully in the new c/s, is still one
of the oldest 747-100s around in regular pax service
(fuselage no. 27 / built in 1970).
In addition, there were lots of DC10s from the early
seventies (about 10 Northwest aircraft altogether).
 
FlyBoeing
Posts: 835
Joined: Fri May 05, 2000 2:08 am

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Thu May 11, 2000 4:22 am

Whatever you do, don't fly Northwest. Their aircraft are old and dingy. Their flight attendants are old and ugly and alienated. After a trip with Cathay Pacific, our family took a vacation to Spain on NW and I went to the back to ask the flight attendants why they don't have PTVs or decks of cards, clean interiors or clean lavatories, or meal vouchers. They said that they were a low cost airline. But DC-10s are expensive to operate compared to 777s; they have 3 engines and fewer pax.
I agree with TWFirst: fly from Tel Aviv to EWR and then to Denver on Continental. You'll get a much better feel for American corporate culture.
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Thu May 11, 2000 4:24 am

Again folks, let's look at Hisham's post. There's no indication his first priority is the type or age of aircraft he'll be flying on. Unless you guys are reading something I'm not, he's interested in convenience.

I don't dispute anything you guys have said about fleet ages, and I'm definitely not a Northwest fan, but I will say this: I've been on Northwest's reburshied DC9's and I've been on American's F100's, and I'd much rather fly the DC9's: sparkling new interiors. AA's F100's were filthy, old and worn.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
MEA-707
Posts: 3671
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 1999 4:51 am

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Thu May 11, 2000 4:43 am

Hi Hisham,
You'd still consider travelling via Amsterdam! The Dutch charter-airline Martinair has scheduled services to Denver, non stop. I think the KLM-office in Beirut can help you on a one-stop BEY-AMS-DEN ticket, by KLM and their affiliate Martinair. But if the connections are lousy, a two-stop trip might be better. United and NW both have good connections to Denver, it only takes an extra hour or two.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
User avatar
boeingrulz
Posts: 521
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 1999 2:55 am

RE: FlyBoeing

Thu May 11, 2000 4:48 am

I think that your comments about NW flight attendants are absolutly un-called-for. If you approached the flight attendant with the same attitude that you show in your post, I am surprised he/she didn't slap you.

Carolyn
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Thu May 11, 2000 4:50 am

Hello again, just discovered a major typo. It's supposed to be REFURBISHED DC9's not "reburshied" (whatever that means ).
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
hisham
Posts: 681
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 1999 11:32 pm

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Thu May 11, 2000 5:34 am

Thank you guys!
I didn't know Northwest was that bad. Actually, I chose them because I already traveled with KLM and I liked their service + NW is the only American airline that uses 747s across the atlantic. I haven't flown one yet, can you believe it? So the type does count (with price and convenience).

UaL747, I couldn't find a flight via LHR on the BA website.

You want to hear something funny. Air France offers a flight BEY- DEN without using any of its own equipment! Middle East Airlines (MEA) flies BEY- CDG, Delta flies CDG- ATL, ATL- DEN. The problem is that I don't want to fly the 767 across the atlantic.

Tel Aviv? The last time I saw an Israeli plane, it was bombing our electricity supply! (just last week). So I 'd rather not!
Hisham.
 
hisham
Posts: 681
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 1999 11:32 pm

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Thu May 11, 2000 5:44 am

MEA-707,
It would be great if I can fly AMS- DEN with martinair. I'll check it tomorrow. Do you know what aircraft type they use?
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Thu May 11, 2000 5:48 am

Yeah, I had a feeling the TLV suggestion might bring up some political sensitivities. Sorry!

(However, you wouldn't be flying on an Israeli plane, and you could just ignore all the Israeli planes on the tarmac and not look them... OK, I guess that wouldn't work.   Sorry to hear about your electricity supply. Guess they didn't destroy it though because you are able to get on the internet  

HERE'S GOOD NEWS THOUGH, United's LHR-DEN flight is showing up in reservation systems for this fall (starting in October) so the route must have been approved. I just looked up the BEY-DEN route and found an itinerary from BEY to DEN on MEA/UA, connecting at Heathrow. When are planning to go to DEN?
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
hisham
Posts: 681
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 1999 11:32 pm

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Thu May 11, 2000 6:22 am

TWFirst,
I asked about MEA/UA via LHR, it's very expensive. They don't know the exact fare yet but since these airlines don't have any agreement between them, I'll have to pay an "IATA fare" which is expensive. This's what I understood from my travel agent. Anyway, I'm leaving in August. But thanks anyway TWFirst.

MEA-707,
Martinair doesn't mention any AMS- DEN flights on its website.

Hisham.
 
AeroAussie
Posts: 261
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 1999 10:47 am

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Thu May 11, 2000 6:30 am

Actually, United is very good domestically. NW has no equivalent of Economy Plus, or whatever it is. Also, UA gives you headrests, and meals that are at least 1/2 decent. Also, they have much nicer hubs. (Detroit is horrible.)

Hisham-Any way you go, you'll have to make two stops. But, BA does operate a connecting service between Gatwick and Heathrow on a bus. It may be worth looking into. Short of that, I'd go with LH/UA (BEY-FRA-IAD, EWR, or ORD-DEN) or with AZ/CO (BEY-MXP or FCO-EWR-DEN) I don't know for sure if Alitalia flies to Beirut or not, though.
Good Luck!
-Nikko
 
flyf15
Posts: 6633
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:10 am

Martinair

Thu May 11, 2000 6:35 am

Martinair stopped DEN-AMS over a year ago. It was flown 3x weekly with 767-300ER. Theres nothing wrong with Northwest, don't worry. I've been on dozens of their flights and to me it compares favoribly or evenly to the other majors I've been on. I would personally fly to LHR then get a 1 stop 777 to DEN (stops in Newark).
 
exnonrev
Posts: 598
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 1999 4:26 am

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Thu May 11, 2000 7:08 am

Too bad CO discontinued its DEN-LGW flight when they closed the DEN hub. It did pretty well for them. It was especially popular among CO pass riders who could never get on IAH or EWR-LGW due to heavy loads.

Trivia - The last airplane ever to leave Denver-Stapleton on 27 Feb 95 was CO 34 (DC-10-30 N12061) DEN-LGW.
 
FLY777UAL
Posts: 4830
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

TWFirst

Thu May 11, 2000 8:20 am

The DEN-LHR service won't be starting for quite a while...probably much longer than late March of '01.

The flights that Apollo showed for 29 DEC 00 and 23 MAR 01 (two random dates) were flights 906 and 958, stopping in EWR and ORD, respectively. These routes are operated by 777's from DEN-EWR-LHR, and 757 DEN-ORD/767-300 ORD-LHR.

FLY777UAL
 
FlyBoeing
Posts: 835
Joined: Fri May 05, 2000 2:08 am

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Thu May 11, 2000 9:10 am

I stand by my comments on the NW flight attendants. I have maybe once gotten good service on a NW flight, and I fly about 2-3 times a year, and once a year to the Philippines on NW.

Now contrast NW with Cathay Pacific- another airline which is NOT government subsidized and thus has to rely on its own merits to survive. Or look at Continental.

NW flight attendants do not come when you push the button (and rarely enough in Business Class) and when they do come they ask to turn the light off. NW flite attendants are noticeably less attractive than those of even other American carriers, and they do not go out of their way to fix problems. On my last Continental segment a flight attendant spend 30 minutes trying to fix a bulb that wouldn't go off. They look you in the eye. Where NW attendants don't give water or food to diabetics about to go into insulin shock, CO attendants dealt with a passenger heart attack with dispatch and aplomb. NW attendants hide from the passengers. Yes, I have the right to talk about the glaring problems of NW inflight service. I have the right to have an opinion. I do not have the right to disrespect the flight attendants, but it has become common that NW's don't reciprocate.
 
fjnovak1
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2000 2:23 am

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Thu May 11, 2000 1:12 pm

I don't know about Northwest flight crews on international routes, but I have flown all kinds of domestic routes on Northwest as I live near Detroit, soch as DTW-FLL, DTW-SFO, DTW-MCO, DTW-PBI, DTW-DCA, and MSP-DTW on 727s, 757s, DC10s, 320s, DC9s, and 319s. Honestly, I will give you the 411 on Northwest. The food service is mediocre but steadily improving. In-flight entertainment sucks big time...one movie internationally and re-runs of "Dharma&Greg" and the like on domestic 757 flights (like DTW-DEN is usually a 757) Detroit's airport is miserable no matter if you live here or connect here. You might get your days exercise going from one gate to another. The planes are old, but lots of them have newer interiors (especially the DC9s, DC10s, and some 757s) but the 727s are dingy. The 319s are brand new and the A320s are recent if not brand new. Northwest has gone a decade since their last serious accident (pilot error) and the plane type involved (the MD-80) no longer is used at NW. I believe their maintenance is first-rate, and the planes are old because they couldn't order new ones while they were in Chapter 11 for much of the first third of the nineties ('90-'94)

As for the flight attendants, I have encountered no flight attendant that has been rude to me. My negative experiences with Northwest have ALL been with the ground crew in Detroit (gate agents, CSRs, etc...) Almost every flight I am on there is one very attractive flight attendant, and yes, almost invariably one older flight attendant. There also seems to be a great amount of diversity amongst FAs (I respect that)...lots of male FAs also (different from other airlines)...

Northwest and Continental is all I will fly because A) I live in Southeastern Michigan and B) they are a known-quantity; I haven't flown with anyone else since 1997 (with Continental). Give them a shot if the airfare is right.
Go Blue!!
 
ZRH
Posts: 4371
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 1999 11:32 pm

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Thu May 11, 2000 5:53 pm

An other possibility: SR 353 to Zurich (6 times/week, A 320/321, leaving Bey 03.30, arriving in ZRH at 06.40) then SR 124 to ORD (leaving in ZRH at 10.20, A 330-200, arriving 12.50) and then AA to Denver (leaving ORD 15.00, arriving 16.40).
Have a nice trip.
 
DEN-HNL
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2000 8:38 am

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Fri May 12, 2000 1:48 am

Yet another possibility:
AF or ME: BEY-CDG (Both:A310)
AC or AF: CDG-YYZ (AF:A340 AC:767)
AC or UA: YYZ-DEN (AC:A319 UA:733)
John Hancock
 
goooooaaal
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2000 8:50 am

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Fri May 12, 2000 1:52 am

Hisham, you want simple, here it is...

Get your ass to London as conveniently and cheaply as you can, take the numerous ground transport options to LGW, and fly BA direct, nonstop to Denver! 'nuff said.
 
AFa340-300E
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

Air France

Fri May 12, 2000 3:06 am

Hello,

You shold fly:
BEY-CDG-EWR-DEN on Air France and Continental Airlines. Both airlines's services rank among the best ones, and the prices are still affordable.

For any further information:
www.airfrance.com
www.continental.com

Note that no airline has as many flights to BEY as Air France, thanks to its cooperation with MEA.

Regards,
Alain Mengus

 
blink182
Posts: 5278
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 1999 3:09 am

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Fri May 12, 2000 7:03 am

you could take (ua or aa on the route w/out changing airlines) from LHR-ORD-DEN.
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
NYC-air
Posts: 139
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2000 6:59 am

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Fri May 12, 2000 7:29 am

Hisham,
I have to chime in on the disscossion about Nowthwest. I've flown both Northwest and KLM and I have to say that I understand your reasons for choosing Northwest after flying KLM. KLM is an amazing airline!! The fact is that Northwest cannot even close to being comparing to KLM. Even though they are partners. DTW is also a terrible airport! You really should choose a different route with a different carrier!!

My suggestion--
Air France codeshares with Delta and Continental. I suggest flying Air France to CDG. Then you can either fly Air France or Delta to ATL, JFK, or CVG, all have connections on Delta to Denver. You can also Fly Air France or Continental to EWR or IAH and connect to Continental flight to Denver at EWR or IAH. Air France flys the 747 on some of its flights to JFK and EWR so you might still be able to book yourself on a 747. You will be much happier than using Northwest.

Whatever you do stay clear of Northwest's old planes and bad service. Also, if you like getting reasonably good food don't expect it on Northwest.

--NYC-AIR
 
hisham
Posts: 681
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 1999 11:32 pm

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Fri May 12, 2000 5:55 pm

Guys,
I'm leaning towards the star alliance. This's the itinerary:

BEY-FRA Lufthansa 319
FRA-ORD United 7474
ORD- DEN United DC-10

The advantages are better aircraft, better transatlantic flight than NW, a shorter layover at FRA than AMS, a better layover at ORD than Detroit. Right?

I have already flown with Lufthansa CDG-FRA-BEY. I was not impressed with the service but it wasn't bad. The main inconvenience islittle legroom. I felt in a box in the 319 for 4 hours. Anyway, my new trip is mainly with United.
Hisham.

ps AF is offering only Delta flights via ATL or CVG to DEN.
 
DEN-HNL
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2000 8:38 am

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Fri May 12, 2000 10:54 pm

Hisham,
Thanks for choosing all Star Alliance. Wow, I didn't realize LH had BEY-FRA service. I hope you will be satisfied with UA's int'l service. And you get to fly transatlantic on that 747!  Have a good trip and enjoy Denver and Colorado.
John Hancock
 
goooooaaal
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2000 8:50 am

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Fri May 12, 2000 11:17 pm

Hisham, here is your move...

BA # 6702 (A320) DP BEY 10:05 a.m.
AR LHR 1:20 p.m.

stay a night in beautiful London (you don't have a visa problem, do you?) next day...

BA # 2019 (B747-400) DP LGW 1:30 p.m.
AR DEN 4:25 p.m.

 
hisham
Posts: 681
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 1999 11:32 pm

RE: Denver- Europe Connections, Why Not?

Sat May 13, 2000 1:47 am

Thank you DEN-HNL. Lufthansa has 5 weekly flights to Beirut using A319/320/321.

I booked my flight to Denver. Guess what? The Lufthansa flight turned out to be cheaper. The one way trip BEY-DEN with LH/UA is for $700 while with KLM/NW it's $850. But the flight plan is a bit different from what I wrote before:

BEY-FRA LH A319
FRA-ORD LH B7472
ORD-DEN UA B7772

Gooal, no I don't have a visa problem but staying overnight in London+ transportation will cost a lot and it's not much simpler than stoping twice. This's a good idea if you have the time and money for a small vacation, one can schedule the flights 3 or 4 days apart. Maybe on my way back!

Thanks everybody, you really helped me. I had too much choices.
Hisham.