iwok
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747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:49 pm

More interesting news on the 747-ADV front. Cargolux is getting real close to signing on.

Looks like the pax version is moving along as well.

From the incessant noise on the ADV, it appears that we are pretty well assured that the program will kick-off; barring any SARS or other such unexpected calamity.

iwok

http://biz.yahoo.com/bizj/050922/1168493.html?.v=2


bizjournals.com
Cargolux expresses interest in fuel-efficient 747 freighter
Thursday September 22, 9:06 pm ET

Rising fuel prices are making the fuel efficiencies of The Boeing Co.'s proposed 747 Advanced freighter more desirable, said Cargolux President and CEO Ulrich Ogiermann. He anticipates a launch of the Boeing's latest cargo jet program soon.
ADVERTISEMENT

"In two or three months, this thing should definitely be finalized," Ogiermann said Thursday at the Cargo Facts 2005 air cargo conference in Seattle. "I'm very optimistic that they will soon launch the program."
....
Comparing the 747 Advanced to the Airbus A380 freighter, Ogiermann said he believes the latter aircraft will be best for freight "integrators" like FedEx, that need to move large volumes of lighter cargo between large airport hubs.

But he added that the 747 Advanced has its own strengths, including a nose door that allows the loading of oversized cargoes.

Ogiermann said he's also hearing, through the industry grapevine, that many passenger carriers are seriously thinking about ordering 747 Advanced aircraft."
 
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:01 pm

That is very positive news from Mr Ogiermann given that CVs contract is contingent upon being signed prior to year end. It would be great to see some PAX versions ordered too.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
jacobin777
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:40 pm

"Ogiermann said he's also hearing, through the industry grapevine, that many passenger carriers are seriously thinking about ordering 747 Advanced aircraft.

"What I hear is that they're looking for something without the huge risks of the A380," he said. "What I hear, behind the scenes, is that there's strong interest on the passenger side.""

I wouldn't be surprised if it were carriers such as BA, CX and maybe NH or JL...lets add SQ to the mix, but SQ would be a long shot...
"Up the Irons!"
 
SthPacific787
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:02 pm

[quote=Jacobin777,reply=2]I wouldn't be surprised if it were carriers such as BA, CX and maybe NH or JL...lets add SQ to the mix,

I sincerely hope so. It would be awesome to see the 'Queen of the Skies' be given a new lease of life and a bright future!
Aussie Based Air NZ 787 fan
 
keesje
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:20 pm

Obviously 2 or 3 commitments for passenger 747adv seem key for the project. I'm not sure if it will be the CX, BA or JL kind of carriers. Those are the ones who can fill A380's.

I think the 744 operators who can't fill / don't want a 500+ seater in the foreseable future are more likely, say the ElAl, KLM, NWA, UA, ELAL kind of airlines.

I think the 747adv should be launched soon now, the 744's start to become of age & operators could change their minds.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
na
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:57 pm

Fine. Although the steps taken are pretty slow for my taste.

It looks like negotiations with potential customers are probably harder than expected because the airlines interested have to many contradicting wishes regarding the details of the 747 Advanced. That it will come is beyond doubt now, as the market needs hundreds of aircraft of this size in the next decade and no other aircraft is out there (a shortened A380 might probably not deliver the economics of the 747 Adv.. Most "shrinks" don´t work as the basic aircraft is too heavy. That killed the proposed 777-100 a few years ago)
 
NAV20
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:53 pm

In the 772LR 'testers' blog' on the Boeing website, The '747ADV program' is being routinely mentioned. This phrase is typical:-

"As we mentioned last time, the longer-term technology research we've been undertaking this past summer won't find its way onto a production airplane for 3-5 years. Initially on the 787 and the 747 Advanced."

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/777family/200LR/flight_test/

I suspect that the program is in full swing; but that there won't be any announcement until the machinists' strike ends.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
777MAS
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:10 pm

It would be awesome to see the 'Queen of the Skies' be given a new lease of life and a bright future!

Heh heh, the "Queen" will always be more beautiful than the "King"  Smile
 
DAYflyer
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:52 pm

Long live the queen!

I hope the orders are signed soon...can't stand the suspense much longer!
 hyper 
One Nation Under God
 
jacobin777
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:00 am

Quoting SthPacific787 (Reply 3):
I sincerely hope so. It would be awesome to see the 'Queen of the Skies' be given a new lease of life and a bright future!

 thumbsup 

Quoting Keesje (Reply 4):
I'm not sure if it will be the CX, BA or JL kind of carriers. Those are the ones who can fill A380's.

guess again...it seems like as if some just very might be ready to order some....though from the other thread, with the A380 back on schedule
(Airbus: A380 Back On Track), I could potentially see SQ taking a pass on the 747ADV..but if CX, JL, NH, and especially BA ordered the 747ADV, it would be a big boon for Boeing and potentially bad for The WhaleJet orders with these carriers..

"Boeing nears 747ADV launch decision
Wednesday September 7, 2005
Boeing is moving closer to the launch of the 747-400ADV with the announced sale of four 747-400Fs to Nippon Cargo Airlines.According to insiders at the manufacturer, the next delivery slots are 747-400ADV aircraft. This year the company has sold 24 747-400s and now has a backlog of 30 net of five cancellations logged in 2005.

Cargolux has announced its intention to order 10 747-ADV freighters. Other carriers identified with the program are China Airlines, Malaysia Airlines, Japan Airlines, Singapore Airlines and British Airways."

source ATWonline.com
"Up the Irons!"
 
NAV20
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:16 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 9):
According to insiders at the manufacturer, the next delivery slots are 747-400ADV aircraft.

That would be incredible if Boeing can achieve it. With only 30-odd old-model 747s still in the queue to be built, surely that points to 747ADV deliveries in late 2006 or early 2007?

By the way, the Airbus announcement was that they were now able to start production and hope to avoid any further A380 delays - not recover any of the six-month delay already announced. In fact, according to this, SQ deliveries (originally April 2006) may be pushed back to December:-

"The first plane due to be delivered commercially is one of five A380s taking shape under an undercoat of green paint in the assembly plant, with only the livery on the tail giving away its future owner -- Singapore Airlines, which will receive the plane in November or December 2006."

http://today.reuters.com/investing/f...TRIDST_0_TRANSPORT-AIRBUS-A380.XML

They'd better make sure of that. Be a laugh if, after all the speculation, the 747ADV beat the A380 into service, wouldn't it?  Smile
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:31 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 2):
and maybe NH or JL...



Quoting Keesje (Reply 4):
I'm not sure if it will be the CX, BA or JL kind of carriers. Those are the ones who can fill A380's.

JL would probably never buy A380. Being the largest operator of 747 right now, I won't be surprised if they will be the launch customer for the passenger version. CX maybe, BA possibly, though not before 747-500 is in revenue service with other carriers. I'd also add Lufthansa and Qantas to the mix.

Quoting 777MAS (Reply 7):
Heh heh, the "Queen" will always be more beautiful than the "King"

Both king and queen are ugliest passenger planes ever made. I'd rather take the princesses anytime (look at my sig to find out who they are   )

[Edited 2005-09-23 17:34:44]
POLAND IS UNDER DICTATORSHIP. PLEASE SUPPORT COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, K.O.D.
 
jacobin777
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:29 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
That would be incredible if Boeing can achieve it. With only 30-odd old-model 747s still in the queue to be built, surely that points to 747ADV deliveries in late 2006 or early 2007?

I think EIS would be 2008....but i'm not sure of that....

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
By the way, the Airbus announcement was that they were now able to start production and hope to avoid any further A380 delays - not recover any of the six-month delay already announced. In fact, according to this, SQ deliveries (originally April 2006) may be pushed back to December:-

yah.that thread has been discussed...its still delayed by 6 months....
"Up the Irons!"
 
ikramerica
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:12 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 12):
I think EIS would be 2008....but i'm not sure of that....

You might see them pre-olympics, but that would be an outside shot. they can't "promise" them by that time like the 787, at least.

30 744 slots, combined with the strike, is much longer than 2007 backlog.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
jacobin777
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:27 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 13):

You might see them pre-olympics, but that would be an outside shot. they can't "promise" them by that time like the 787, at least.

30 744 slots, combined with the strike, is much longer than 2007 backlog.

the mere fact it might be built is a testament to the plane!

Hopefully the will announce it soon!
"Up the Irons!"
 
ikramerica
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:31 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 14):
the mere fact it might be built is a testament to the plane!

Hopefully the will announce it soon!

No doubt.

Can't wait to see them at LAX, and maybe take one to Asia. Maybe visit HongKong.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:32 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 11):
Both king and queen are ugliest passenger planes ever made. I'd rather take the princesses anytime (look at my sig to find out who they are )

Careful sir, you'll get reamed for that one. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
Areopagus
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:52 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 9):
though from the other thread, with the A380 back on schedule
(Airbus: A380 Back On Track),

Hmmm, it looks like that thread must have been deleted.
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:57 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 16):
Careful sir, you'll get reamed for that one.

Don't worry, I'll be just fine... given the fact that my favourite 747 never made it off the CATIA desktops...



[Edited 2005-09-23 20:04:11]

[Edited 2005-09-23 20:05:31]
POLAND IS UNDER DICTATORSHIP. PLEASE SUPPORT COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, K.O.D.
 
jacobin777
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 3:14 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
Can't wait to see them at LAX, and maybe take one to Asia. Maybe visit HongKong.

you mean SFO... Wink


ok...how about both... Smile
"Up the Irons!"
 
iwok
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:11 am

Quoting NA (Reply 5):
Fine. Although the steps taken are pretty slow for my taste.

Hey, not too bad for an airframe that many of us had declared as dead..

I wonder if increasing fuel costs is one of the factors in bringing her back to life.

iwok
 
Hamlet69
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:14 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 2):
I wouldn't be surprised if it were carriers such as BA, CX and maybe NH or JL...lets add SQ to the mix, but SQ would be a long shot...

SQ will not order the airplane, at least not the passenger version. We might see a Freighter order in the future, but SQ will stick with the A380 for the large passenger aircraft.

CX is unclear. Though they have often been linked hand-in-hand with the 747Adv., they've continuously delayed ordering anything other than more 773's and A333's. Though an order from CX was expected by the end of the year, I don't know how the acquisition of used-744's have affected that timeline.

JL, NH and BA are all good possibilities, I would say, though again, timing is an issue.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 4):
I'm not sure if it will be the CX, BA or JL kind of carriers. Those are the ones who can fill A380's.

But they're also the type of carriers that have the slots at their respective airports not to need the A380.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
With only 30-odd old-model 747s still in the queue to be built, surely that points to 747ADV deliveries in late 2006 or early 2007?

There is a current backlog of 42 aircraft. At the current rate of 1.5/month, that would bring us to the beginning of 2008. Rates on the 747 are to drop to @ 1/month next year. There are also more 744F/ERF's in the order pipeline.

EIS of 747Adv has been stated as 1Q'09.


Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
Dougloid
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:20 am

Quoting Iwok (Reply 20):
Hey, not too bad for an airframe that many of us had declared as dead..

To quote Mark Twain after reading his obituary in a newspaper: "Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated."
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
kaitak
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:25 am

Are they still keeping the 744 Advanced Freighter longer than the pax model?

If so, I wonder how many pax versions will be sold; there doesn't seem to be a huge capacity difference and it could probably be made up by a minor reconfiguration?

That said, I do hope it goes ahead.

Who said the 747 was ugly? I could watch 747s landing and taking off every day. It is a wonderful sight and a spectacular aircraft. To my mind, the 747 is the greatest commercial aircraft ever built. If you go back through the whole history of aviation, I'm not sure that there is a similar jump in capacity from one generation to another. Even from the piston/prop age to the early 707s, the jump wasn't that great; the DC7s and Britannias could come pretty close to the 707, particularly the QF 707-138Bs, and the A380 is only about 25% bigger than the 744, but the 744 nearly doubled the capacity of the next largest plane, the DC8-61/63. To have had such faith, such vision and to have been the pioneer of twin aisle passenger aircraft and big fan/high bypass engines must mark it out as one of the greatest.

I hope it gets one last hurrah.

It will always get it from me!
 
hawker
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:45 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 reply 11
Both king and queen are ugliest passenger planes ever made. I'd rather take the princesses anytime (look at my sig to find out who they are)

Are not all airliners essentially female. That is they are generally beautiful, seductive in the air and need a skilled hand to get the best out of them?

Also they require lots of attention and can turn into a real bitch.
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:01 am

Quoting Hawker (Reply 24):
Are not all airliners essentially female. That is they are generally beautiful, seductive in the air and need a skilled hand to get the best out of them?

Also they require lots of attention and can turn into a real bitch

And when things do go wrong there's always a lot of drama.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:25 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 18):
Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 16):
Careful sir, you'll get reamed for that one.

Don't worry, I'll be just fine... given the fact that my favourite 747 never made it off the CATIA desktops...

Well then, there is hope for you after all!!!    I was a big fan of the 500X/600X program myself. The 747 Advanced makes 500X/600X fans like myself wonder if Boeing wasn't considering bringing the -500X/600X program back up on the front burner using "7E7" technologies. After all, the 747 Advanced and the -500X had nearly identical proposed capacities.

Hmmm, oh well, I guess we'll never know now, eh??      

[Edited 2005-09-23 22:37:44]
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
Airportgal
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 6:18 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 6):
I suspect that the program is in full swing; but that there won't be any announcement until the machinists' strike ends.

If I recall correctly.... the 777-300ER and 200LR launch was announced during the engineer's strike......
 
UALophile
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 6:34 am

Is there any American domestic airline what would need new 747's soon, and consider the 747 Adv?

I would think that, once it's house is in order, UA would want to start replacing their 744's with the Advanced, even if the initial order was just for 10-15 planes. It would be quite a shot in the arm for UA and for the American airline industry if this occurred fairly soon....
 
jacobin777
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 6:40 am

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 21):
SQ will not order the airplane, at least not the passenger version. We might see a Freighter order in the future, but SQ will stick with the A380 for the large passenger aircraft.

thats kind of what I think...but if the 747ADV offers better value than the A380 (in terms of relative cost/trip, etc), look for SQ to add some to their pax fleet......
"Up the Irons!"
 
vv701
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:14 am

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 21):
Quoting Keesje (Reply 4):
I'm not sure if it will be the CX, BA or JL kind of carriers. Those are the ones who can fill A380's.

But they're also the type of carriers that have the slots at their respective airports not to need the A380.

I agree with Hamlet 69 but not for this reason as BA has a smaller percentage of slots at LHR than virtually any other major airline at its home base. My concern is whether the 747Adv will be too big to fit in with the BA strategy of giving the customer who requires service what he wants when he wants it rather than relying on selling every seat on the largest aircraft the route will bare at the lowest possible price. But I would bet on an eventual BA order for the 787 (or possibly 350) or the 787 and 745. (If they do go for the 745 I think Boeing will make them an offer for the 787 that will put the 350 out of the running.)
 
BandA
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:45 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 23):
Who said the 747 was ugly? I could watch 747s landing and taking off every day. It is a wonderful sight and a spectacular aircraft. To my mind, the 747 is the greatest commercial aircraft ever built.

Amen!

I am not the kind of person that would fall in love with a car or sheds a tear if such car would vanish over time, but the thought of 747 airframe retired into history just depresses me... it was the FIRST aircraft that impressed me and started my facination with aircraft/aviation and still is my MOST favorite and in my eyes the most beautiful aircraft ever built. Take the Airforce ONE for example everytime I see it, its a impressive sight, my third favorite aircraft - the 777 IMHO has nothing on the 747. A 777 as a Airforce ONE would just not be as impressive.

A380 is a modern marvel on its own. The 777, the 787 all are more modern, more efficient, but none of these aircraft have style. They are all just round TUBES.
(I know style probably means nothing from a engineering/efficiency/airline standpoint)

Just look at a 747 landing or taking off, its like no other aircraft. Even when its parked somewhere it has the prestige.

I hope the 747ADV goes ahead, it would be kinda neat to show the kids the actual aircraft rather than showing pictures or just its skeletons in a desert somewhere.

I think we should be thankful to Airbus for the courage to develop the Whale otherwise Boeing woudlve retired 747 airframe. Because I am sure one way or another the A380 has put pressure on Boeing.
"They [Terrorists] never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." - GWB
 
trex8
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:56 am

oh goody goody! can't wait for a new 747. seems like yesterday my dad took me to see my first jumbo, except it was 36 years ago!!

so what will it be called 747-500, 600, 700, 800???
 
dcflyer9
Posts: 13
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:26 am

The issue I have with a 747advanced is what about passenger comfort? Are we still going to be using the 17 inch wide seats from 30 years ago? As a passenger that's what's most important to me.
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:45 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 26):
I was a big fan of the 500X/600X program myself. The 747 Advanced makes 500X/600X fans like myself wonder if Boeing wasn't considering bringing the -500X/600X program back up on the front burner using "7E7" technologies. After all, the 747 Advanced and the -500X had nearly identical proposed capacities.

Hmmm, oh well, I guess we'll never know now, eh??

Let me put it this way: if Boeing brought back -500X and gave it 787 technology, it would be THE plane that would make SYD-LHR profitable... My guess would be a range of at least 11,000 nm with passengers and luggage... something 777-200LR would NEVER accomplish, as much as I would love it do do so...

Quoting BandA (Reply 31):
A 777 as a Airforce ONE would just not be as impressive.

777 as Air Force One that would fly ANYWHERE in the world without refueling not impressive? I don't think so... Where is ConcordeBoy when he's needed??

Quoting BandA (Reply 31):
I hope the 747ADV goes ahead, it would be kinda neat to show the kids the actual aircraft rather than showing pictures or just its skeletons in a desert somewhere.

I think we should be thankful to Airbus for the courage to develop the Whale otherwise Boeing woudlve retired 747 airframe. Because I am sure one way or another the A380 has put pressure on Boeing.

all 747s are here for the looooong time to stay even if Boeing doesn't go ahead with 747ADV. Just look at the demand for freighter conversions. As far as putting pressure on Boeing - pleeease... If you need to know, there would be quite a few 747-500/-600s flying if Boeing had the balls to stick to the project, which by the way was state-of-the-art... And Airbus would probably never launch A380 or have a real trouble launching it, since everyone would have to wait for it extra two or three years... Just imagine what 747 with a supercritical wing could do... And all they had to do is dig up -500X from the archives and give it 787 technology. The plane was already wind-tunnel tested and it's final configuration as close to being frozen as 787 is today...
POLAND IS UNDER DICTATORSHIP. PLEASE SUPPORT COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, K.O.D.
 
trex8
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:51 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 34):
777 as Air Force One that would fly ANYWHERE in the world without refueling not impressive?

I don't see the USAF being real keen on ETOPs somehow, esp when the passenger is the President!
 
BandA
Posts: 318
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 9:56 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 34):
Quoting BandA (Reply 31):
A 777 as a Airforce ONE would just not be as impressive.

777 as Air Force One that would fly ANYWHERE in the world without refueling not impressive? I don't think so... Where is ConcordeBoy when he's needed??

BlueSky, let me rephrase "A 777 as a Airforce ONE would not LOOK as impressive"  again only in my eyes and IMHO.

my entire post was about the way 747 looks
I do understand that the looks have very little place in aircraft design as I am sure engineers have to look at efficiency (thus range), safety etc etc...

The AA/CO/AI etc. 777 flights direct to India from US say everything about the advantages of modern aircraft such as 777.

[Edited 2005-09-24 02:57:13]
"They [Terrorists] never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." - GWB
 
BandA
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 9:59 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 34):
all 747s are here for the looooong time to stay even if Boeing doesn't go ahead with 747ADV. Just look at the demand for freighter conversions. As far as putting pressure on Boeing - pleeease... If you need to know, there would be quite a few 747-500/-600s flying if Boeing had the balls to stick to the project, which by the way was state-of-the-art... And Airbus would probably never launch A380 or have a real trouble launching it, since everyone would have to wait for it extra two or three years... Just imagine what 747 with a supercritical wing could do... And all they had to do is dig up -500X from the archives and give it 787 technology. The plane was already wind-tunnel tested and it's final configuration as close to being frozen as 787 is today...

really! damn, honestly I have no clue what the 745, 746 concepts were... but sounds amazing... too bad though...
"They [Terrorists] never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." - GWB
 
Boeing Nut
Posts: 5078
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 11:58 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 34):
if Boeing had the balls to stick to the project

......

.......they would probably be out of the airliner business. Right after the time they shelved the project, the Asian recession hit. Boeing would have lost thier ass, big time. In hind sight, it was the smartest thing Boeing could have done at the time.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13730
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:15 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 19):
you mean SFO...

since I live in LA, I could give a flip about SFO...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:46 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 39):
since I live in LA, I could give a flip about SFO...

just when I thought we were going to get along.... box   taekwondo   yuck 
"Up the Irons!"
 
QFA001
Posts: 651
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:16 pm

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 34):
Let me put it this way: if Boeing brought back -500X and gave it 787 technology, it would be THE plane that would make SYD-LHR profitable... My guess would be a range of at least 11,000 nm with passengers and luggage... something 777-200LR would NEVER accomplish, as much as I would love it do do so...

I realise that this is an exercise in the hypothetical, but I doubt that a 747-500X with B787 technology would realise that kind of range.

The proposed -500X was a 1,166,000lb monster, but would have used very similar engines to what the A380 if flying with now; and include more composites than seen in the -400. As it stood, Boeing quoted 8,500-8,700nm range for the -500X. To get to 11,000nm, range would need to go up 26%. IMO, that would not be anywhere near possible with B787-level technology.

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 35):
I don't see the USAF being real keen on ETOPs somehow, esp when the passenger is the President!

What about the USAF C-32As (B757s)?

 airplane QFA001
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:02 pm

Quoting QFA001 (Reply 41):
The proposed -500X was a 1,166,000lb monster, but would have used very similar engines to what the A380 if flying with now; and include more composites than seen in the -400. As it stood, Boeing quoted 8,500-8,700nm range for the -500X. To get to 11,000nm, range would need to go up 26%. IMO, that would not be anywhere near possible with B787-level technology.

It's really not a question of opinion. Just compare the SFC of the engines proposed for the B747-500X and those for the B787. The difference is only about 10% -- nowhere near 26%. Range of a B747-500X with B787 engines would not exceed 10,000nm.
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sat Sep 24, 2005 11:35 pm

Quoting Boeing nut (Reply 38):
.......they would probably be out of the airliner business. Right after the time they shelved the project, the Asian recession hit. Boeing would have lost thier ass, big time. In hind sight, it was the smartest thing Boeing could have done at the time.

Actually, you got things reversed. If I remember correctly (gotta do some digging thru my AW&ST archives), the cancellation of 747-500X/600X was the result of Asian crisis, which lasted only about a year or so... Keep in mind, Boeing left quite a few customers very upset by that move - JAL and Malasian come to mind in this particular case... Besides, it was the absorbtion of McDonnell Douglas that carried the heaviest burden on Boeing at the time...

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 40):
As it stood, Boeing quoted 8,500-8,700nm range for the -500X. To get to 11,000nm, range would need to go up 26%. IMO, that would not be anywhere near possible with B787-level technology.

Actually, Boeing quoted the range of 747-500X as 10000nm with 462 passengers, according to this source. So applying the 787 technology - lighter composite wings, 787 engines - would quite possibly add 1000nm to 747-500Xs range. Keep in mind, that 747-500X would have an updated supercritical wing profile inherited directly from 777.

[Edited 2005-09-24 16:40:45]
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jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sun Sep 25, 2005 12:47 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 43):
Actually, Boeing quoted the range of 747-500X as 10000nm with 462 passengers, according to this source. So applying the 787 technology - lighter composite wings, 787 engines - would quite possibly add 1000nm to 747-500Xs range. Keep in mind, that 747-500X would have an updated supercritical wing profile inherited directly from 777.

umm...BlueSky1976...thanks for the info, but reply 40 by me wasn't what you quoted...
"Up the Irons!"
 
BlueSky1976
Posts: 1605
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:18 am

RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:31 am

Sorry, I guess I got lost while editing a reply there  Smile
POLAND IS UNDER DICTATORSHIP. PLEASE SUPPORT COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, K.O.D.
 
EI321
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:06 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
They'd better make sure of that. Be a laugh if, after all the speculation, the 747ADV beat the A380 into service, wouldn't it?

What! Are you joking? How could the 747A possibly make it into service by the end of next year?

I vote JAL or ANA as the potential major launch customers.

[Edited 2005-09-24 23:06:55]
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8549
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RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:18 am

>> Actually, Boeing quoted the range of 747-500X as 10000nm with 462 passengers, according to this source.

Bluesky1976, the source you indicated states that the 747-500X has a range of 1000 statute miles. Covert the units and the range is approx 8,650 nm.

1 nm = 1.15 mi
1 mi = .86 nm

Zvendza is correct: With the technology Boeing was incorperating into the 747-500X, it was simply impossible for the 747-500X to have a range of 10,000 nautical miles. Boeing would have been forced to trade a large amount of payload (like the 747-SP) to reach 10,000 nm.
 
Planesmart
Posts: 1717
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:49 am

744 orders in the last 8 months have been packaged with the 747ADV, including the offer of retrospective discounts on 744's when ADV's are ordered.

B's challenge is still the gap between the degree of advance freight/cargo operators want (smaller) and passenger operators want (bigger), effectively fragmenting volumes, development, costs and economies of scale.

Keenest demand is from the cargo sector. The risk to B of meeting this target market's requirements, is that most/all of the industry's preferred advances could be incorporated in existing 744 airframes once B has certified the new model.

The only way the passenger version will be launched, is with a large order from the likes of Emirates, Singapore or Lufthansa, thereby creating a viable 'standard' model.

Despite assertions a launch is 2-3 months away (how long have we been hearing that), there appear to be no firm proposals in the market place for funding, either by B, potential suppliers or customers, so EIS 2008 (cargo) or 2009 (passenger) is looking increasingly unlikely.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8549
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: 747-ADV Approval One Step Closer

Sun Sep 25, 2005 7:20 am

>> 744 orders in the last 8 months have been packaged with the 747ADV, including the offer of retrospective discounts on 744's when ADV's are ordered.

I hope you intended to say: "may have been packaged with 747-Adv?" It's certainly a possibility, but still only speculation at this point.

>> Keenest demand is from the cargo sector

In the near term, yes. I believe Boeing's long-term estimation of 747-Adv sales are for passenger orders to overtake cargo by a ratio of nearly 2:1.

>> Despite assertions a launch is 2-3 months away (how long have we been hearing that), there appear to be no firm proposals in the market place for funding, so EIS 2008 (cargo) or 2009 (passenger) is looking increasingly unlikely.

I don't disagree, but neither do I fully agree:

(1) Boeing has been in discussion with suppliers to the extent that they can for a non-industrial launched airplane.

(2) The 747-Advanced is only a modest financial undertaking on Boeing's part. The scope of the project will certainly be less than the A340-500/600.

(3) Boeing projects historically deliver a product to market (relativly) quickly. The fact that design and definition work for the 747-Adv is largely compete doesn't hurt, either.

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