AEROFAN
Posts: 1406
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:05 am

Does anyone know the complete story behind the dead VS pilot who was found in the Caribbean this week?

What flight?
Natural causese?
What happened to operations of that flight? Was it a 24hr delay? Ferried to another island?
 
vsfullthrottle
Posts: 274
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RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:37 am

Hey Aerofan

Where did you hear that from???

Is that all you know???

VSFT
 
Inbound
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RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:42 am

He (F/O) committed suicide at the hotel.

Apparently it was last night, and details are still very limited.

The island of Tobago. I flew in there this morning and the aircraft was still parked at the gate, completely closed up and isolated.

G-VROY.

Last I heard is the relief crew already in Tobago TAB, will get the necessary amount of rest and resume operation shortly.

My deepest condolences!
Maintain own separation with terrain!
 
Airbuff
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RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:43 am

How sad. God Bless him.
Where am I going, and why am I in this handbasket?
 
AEROFAN
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Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:12 pm

VS FullThrottle, yep that's all I know. Heard some VS staff at JFK talking about it today. The details were sketchy

Inbound, thanks for the info
 
vfw614
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RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Sat Sep 24, 2005 10:28 pm

I was wondering how the airline will explain the cancellation under these circumstances. Will they just tell the pax the plain truth or make something up ?
 
 
ArmitageShanks
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RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Sun Sep 25, 2005 12:17 am

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 5):
Will they just tell the pax the plain truth or make something up ?

They will tell the truth.
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:17 am

Thats awful, what would make a person do such a thing?

Must have had some serious issues  Sad


Lee
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
jamesbuk
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RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:03 am

at least he didnt do this inflight like a few people alledgedly have. he has in my views the perfect job for a great airline yet he commits suicide how sad
R.I.P
You cant have your cake and eat it... What the hells the point in having it then!!!
 
AEROFAN
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RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Sun Sep 25, 2005 7:18 am

Armitage

Interesting question. I'll see if I can find anything out from my Virgin friends at JFK.
 
flymia
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RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:14 am

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 9):
at least he didnt do this inflight like a few people alledgedly have. he has in my views the perfect job for a great airline yet he commits suicide how sad

I was thinking the exact same thing. Wonder if he knew he was going to do it that night after that flight? If he knew that would be his last landing? Who knows.
Anyway atleast he did not do anything crazy inflight.
RIP
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
FLY2LIM
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RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:36 pm

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 9):
at least he didnt do this inflight like a few people alledgedly have. he has in my views the perfect job for a great airline yet he commits suicide how sad
R.I.P



Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 11):
I was thinking the exact same thing. Wonder if he knew he was going to do it that night after that flight? If he knew that would be his last landing? Who knows.
Anyway atleast he did not do anything crazy inflight.

I'm sorry, what completely insensitive comments. Just because he's a F/O for VS and has the "perfect job for a great airline" does not mean that he has no personal demons he couldn't overcome. But to, somehow, paint this person as being stupid for giving up the "perfect job" that many a.nutters would dream of having is incredibly insensitive.
I am going to assume that when someone takes their life, the last thing on their mind is "boy, I'm no longer gonna get to fly those pretty planes."
It is equally stupid to assume that a person who wants to end his/her life would decide to go out with a "bang" and take with them a bunch of innocent pax. The comment of him "not doing anything crazy inflight" tells me that the poster has no idea what suicide is about. I mean, I don't know what would drive someone to suicide but, most times, it doesn't involve taking down a plane just to make a point.
I'm sorry, I took exception to those posts. I hate it when a.nutters speculate on stuff like this.
FLY2LIM
Faucett. La primera linea aerea del Peru.
 
AR385
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RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:25 am

Quoting Aerofan (Thread starter):
I'm sorry, what completely insensitive comments. Just because he's a F/O for VS and has the "perfect job for a great airline" does not mean that he has no personal demons

I totally agree with the above. So far we know nothing of this person's life, not that it should be our business, and people post comments like the ones FLY2LIM references.

Suicide is usually associated with depression. On average, 15% of depression-affected people will commit successful suicide. Again we know nothing about the guy. Did his co-workers lately observed he was depressed? Was he on medication and forgot to take it? or ran out of it?

Depression is a very tricky disorder. Some people are extremely depressed, suffering from clinical depression but will not let people on the outside know. There is a name for this type of depression but I don't recall it now. The point is, once they are alone, their existing depression hits with a vengeance and it becomes so bad for them it's almost palpable. In any case, even in this type of depression, there are signals given out by the person that are not that difficult to read.

During my graduate studies, I had a classmate who was the epitome of the all around American student. Always organizing activities (soccer games, barbeques, volunteering events, charity events) He had a beautiful fiancee he had introduced to everybody. He always had a smile and was always willing to help anybody. Yet, 6 months before the 2 year graduate program ended, he committed suicide. I won't go into the details but we were all shocked. If there was anybody who had everything going for him, it was him.

You should never ignore someone close to you with clinical depression. The old adage of "just snap out of it" doesn't work. It is a condition that requires professional help and medication. Forget the British "stiff upper lip" line.

I believe that in this case, if anybody is to blame, it is VS, for not having a system to correctly assess the mental health of its crew members. Assuming of course, the suicide cause was depression. It seems a consequence of the "Hush, hush" culture developed among crew members. If any of his coworkers noted the guy was acting strangely. They should have spoken up, and Human Resources should have intervened, (I am assuming none of this happened.)

The sad thing is that this guy was probably screaming for help and nobody heard him, figuratively speaking. There are always signs. It seems like just another case of that sad 15% statistic. Again, someone in his immediate circle of people, family, co-workers, friends, his GP should have helped him.

Having the "perfect job for the perfect airline" is really an insensitive and ignorant thing to say.

If you know someone with depression, don't ignore it and don't pity it, and definitely do not underestimate it. Get or convince that person to seek professional help immediately. Given the potential results we now saw, depression is a dangerous condition which can obviously lead to death.
 
AR385
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RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:36 pm

So, is there any more information about this incident? I can't seem to find it anywhere except on the links provided, but it's the same we know.
 
atco2b
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RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:39 pm

Very sad news. RIP  Sad
Hey, you want to go out for pizza and some sex? What, you don't like pizza?
 
richierich
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RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:33 am

Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 12):
I am going to assume that when someone takes their life, the last thing on their mind is "boy, I'm no longer gonna get to fly those pretty planes."

Very well said, Fly2Lim. No matter the outcome, it is a very sad and tragic ending for some family to have to deal with. Like most people in here, I wish them the best and hope they pull through some of the dark days ahead.
None shall pass!!!!
 
AA54Heavy
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RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:48 am

Perhaps a big issue here is the fact that you cannot hold a pilot's license while being on anti-depressants, at least for the US, or from what I understand, even be treated (therapy) for depression.....so, if someone does have that "dream job" but will lose it because they need to seek help or get on anti-depressants (which work very well for alot of people), perhaps some people will hide it and pretend they are okay so they keep their job, yet the depression ends up biting them in the end....perhaps other people more familiar with this can chime in
Roger that, turning to our "other" left
 
Inbound
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RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:01 am

we've HEARD a thing or two here and even though it's a sensitive topic, I'm sure some curiousity would like to be satisfied.

from what I've HEARD, there was some problems with "personal relations".

His business is still HIS business. So how about we leave it at that? I'm sure he'd like to maintain a degree of pride, even in death. RIP.
Maintain own separation with terrain!
 
AR385
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Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:25 am

Quoting Inbound (Reply 18):
His business is still HIS business. So how about we leave it at that?

Sorry, Inbound, but no

There's no "leave it at that", in this case.

In some professions there are other groups left behind who need to know what happened. Among many, we, the lowly passengers. I, as a passenger, would want to know what happened and then why to such an important member of the crew that it left me stranded for two days. It doesn't take long for the imagination of such passengers to start playing with scenarios like "what if he had done in flight?" They might not need to know as much as other institutions, granted.

But the industry, not only the airline, need to look at what they currently do to potentially have a role in such a case. How to avoid it, maybe, how to screen those who might require some help later, and other things.

Rules and regulations need to be looked at, if what AA54Heavy says applies in the EU. How many pilots flying out there are dangerously depressed, hauling 400 people behind the cockpit door who can do nothing about it because of archaic regulations? What is worst? to have a deppression affected individual in the cockpit with no treatment and no hope of treatment or someone who is going to treatment and takes the required medication for his condition if he requires it?, openly if he desires it.

And even if it doesn't come to that, there is a contradiction here. You might be holding the best job of your life, but that same job prohibits your ability to seek help for your depressed state. If you are depressed as such and that job you love so much won't let you seek help, then somethng has to give. The Egyptair 990 and the Sylkair crashes come to mind now, don't they ?.
 
AEROFAN
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RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:43 am

what do u mean problems with personal relations - that can cover a whole range of things -i haven't been able to find out anything from the vs staff as yet. they no nothing. as a matter of fact some didn't even know about the incident. then again most of the staff at jfk are no longer vs staff anymore . they are from the outsource company
 
aztec01
Posts: 128
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RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:19 am

Quoting AA54Heavy (Reply 17):
Perhaps a big issue here is the fact that you cannot hold a pilot's license while being on anti-depressants

While the antidepressants may help elevate mood, some of them make people profoundly dopey and tired until they get used to them. Often they are given in combination with other medications (mood stabilizers, antipsychotics, etc) that may slow reflexes and thought. More than anything else, clinical depression has the very heavy stigma of 'mental illness' attached to it, which causes people to try and ignore and minimize it. The stigma of suicidality is even worse. It makes reasonable sense to not allow a person on certain antidepressants, or struggling with suicidality to fly or pilot a plane. It's both for the pilot's and any passengers safety. But it's gotta be hard to admit your struggle if doing so causes the loss of everything that gives your life purpose.

May the pilot's soul rest in peace and may he have freedom from the demons that haunted him.  pray 
 
HikesWithEyes
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RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:39 am

Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 12):
It is equally stupid to assume that a person who wants to end his/her life would decide to go out with a "bang" and take with them a bunch of innocent pax

http://www.guardian.co.uk/egyptair/article/0,2763,330000,00.html>
First, benzene in my Perrier, and now this!
 
Trolley Dolley
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RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:46 am

For those who say it's "a dream job", all I can say is that for any frequent traveller- whether crew or passengers- the lifestyle can have many, very lonely moments. You may simply want or need a cuddle, talk or other sort of emotional intimacy that is not possible in a non-descript hotel room at 2am when you are wide awake becasue of jet lag with loved ones on the other side of the globe. Regular travel places many strains on relationships and a person's soul.

The only people that need to know "why" are his friends and family. Sadly, as I have learned personally, they may never receive an answer to the most simplest of questions.

I strongly feel that discussions about "why" and some a.netters trying to get grittier details are totally inappropriate for this forum. They could also be breaching privacy laws.

On the other hand, the issues of mental health in airline workers, and steps taken to ensure their well being are valid points of discussion raise by this tragic incident.

My condolences to any VS a.netters who many have been directly affected by this loss on a personal level. My your friend and colleague rest in peace, and may your sadnessed be soothed by the passing of time. RIP
 
AR385
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Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:37 pm

Quoting Aztec01 (Reply 21):
While the antidepressants may help elevate mood, some of them make people profoundly dopey and tired until they get used to them. Often they are given in combination with other medications (mood stabilizers, antipsychotics, etc) that may slow reflexes and thought. More than anything else, clinical depression has the very heavy stigma of 'mental illness' attached to it, which causes people to try and ignore and minimize it. The stigma of suicidality is even worse. It makes reasonable sense to not allow a person on certain antidepressants, or struggling with suicidality to fly or pilot a plane. It's both for the pilot's and any passengers safety. But it's gotta be hard to admit your struggle if doing so causes the loss of everything that gives your life purpose

Thanks a lot for clearing up the issue of depression and why a pilot should not be on the cockpit while on medication for that particular condition. Many contributions on A.net forums should be like yours, for this type of discussions. On the other hand, people need to change their attitudes toward the mental illness stigma that is assigned to this condition. I really hope this will change someday

Quoting Trolley Dolley (Reply 23):
On the other hand, the issues of mental health in airline workers, and steps taken to ensure their well being are valid points of discussion raise by this tragic incident.

Yes, I think it's time that this issue is taken up by the industry, specially since many new medications are coming out regularly.
 
TWA902fly
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RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:14 pm

Quoting Aerofan (Reply 10):
I'll see if I can find anything out from my Virgin friends at JFK.

so bad.
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
Tod
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RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:55 am

Quoting Trolley Dolley (Reply 23):
all I can say is that for any frequent traveller- whether crew or passengers- the lifestyle can have many, very lonely moments. You may simply want or need a cuddle, talk or other sort of emotional intimacy that is not possible in a non-descript hotel room at 2am when you are wide awake becasue of jet lag with loved ones on the other side of the globe.

Very well said.
For me anyway, a certain occasions, very few things suck more than waking up looking at another hotel ceiling and realizing that you're half a world away from your wife again.

Tod
 
S5FA170
Posts: 528
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RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:29 am

Quoting Trolley Dolley (Reply 23):



Quoting Trolley Dolley (Reply 23):
For those who say it's "a dream job", all I can say is that for any frequent traveller- whether crew or passengers- the lifestyle can have many, very lonely moments. You may simply want or need a cuddle, talk or other sort of emotional intimacy that is not possible in a non-descript hotel room at 2am when you are wide awake becasue of jet lag with loved ones on the other side of the globe. Regular travel places many strains on relationships and a person's soul.

Trolley - You are right. Working in the airline industry is quite a great field to be in. However, like you said, some people don't understand the lifestyle that accompanies it. I haven't been doing this job too terribly long, but I've been away from home since the day I got hired. I can't commute between my hometown and my base, and it takes time to settle into a new city. It takes time to make new friends. You leave behind your family, your loved ones, those you grew up with. And the people you do meet, you leave for three and four days at a time, with only two days in between at my airline. I'm not complaining, but it does get stressful. At times all you see is one lonely hotel room after another. Adjusting to the frame-of-mind needed to cope with that isn't always easy. And personally, in the short time I've been doing this job, it has already claimed the most important relationship in my life as a casualty. I can understand how someone in this industry would have a hard time dealing with the pressures of constant travel. It is, unfortunately, almost always a contributing factor. One that compounds conditions that already exist. Just two weeks ago my airline suffered a devastating loss when one of our F/A's committed suicide. The answers are few and far between. All you can do is lean on each other because when you're on the road for 18-22 days a month together, you're the only family and friends you have. It truly is a brotherhood. Let this be a lesson to us all, never fear reaching out when you're in need. And on the flipside, never reject someone who is reaching out. We're all in this together.

~Tony
Prepare doors for departure and cross-check.
 
Trolley Dolley
Posts: 548
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2000 1:57 pm

RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:31 am

Firstly, I'm not, nor ever have been airline staff. I have however travelled a lot, hence my previous post and nom de plume ( I spend as much time in the cabin as cabin crew do it seems!). S5FA170's reponse to my previous post jogged my memory. In November I spoke to a senior crew member with SAA. She was involved with flying and the recruitment process. She mentioned the reasons they have issues with retaining staff. With much sadness in her eyes, she said that one of the top 5 reasons for losing crew was suicide.

Does anyone know if there have been studies into the mental health of flight and cabin crew? What steps do airlines take to support and assist their people while ensuring safe operations? What help and advice to they offer?
 
ua777222
Posts: 2987
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:23 am

RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:51 am

Quoting Trolley Dolley (Reply 28):
Does anyone know if there have been studies into the mental health of flight and cabin crew? What steps do airlines take to support and assist their people while ensuring safe operations? What help and advice to they offer?

I think company benifits for any airline are sweet. If you can't take the job step down. It's not like the airline pulled you off the street and begged for you to come to the company. While I understand no job=no dinner some times your mental state comes first. That or talk to your cheif pilot and let them know what's going on. Tell them you'll take the time off without pay to get your issues together. I think outside of just asking pilots to be aware, they provide simple things to brighten up one's day.

They are given lax time to sit around and do as they please on layover. They are able to mix and match their routes. Pilot lounges. Non-rev for the whole family, etc.

Just because they're a pilot doesn't mean they are unlike anyone else. If you think about it, a police officer, firefighter, VP's, CEO's, my father, all deal with hard work and lots of traveling.

My Dad was recently given a nice promotion to VP of Logistic Management for a large soft drink corp. Part of the deal was that he would need to relocate. Now the house my parents have built for the past 16 years would need to be sold, schools would need to be changed, and ontop of that all they offered him the job while he was on the start of our vacation half way around the world and basically asked if he was in and that if he was out to not expect to have a job when he got home.

Took the job, we returned Sunday night, the following morning at 4am he flew out to LAX for the week. He made a deal with them that he would fly, on his own dime, down to LA for the week and lodge, on his own dime, as long as they didn't require him to sell his house. They agreed. That was August 1st so however long between now and then he's been gone for the entire week and only comes home to see his family Saturday and Sunday and then flies out the following day....

Sure my parents fight, sure they have issues, but at least they get through it. Look at this poor man as a person, not a pilot or employee of VS. It's not always the falling down, rather, the getting up. And sometimes, when away and emotional this step proves to be harder than taking your own life.

Don't critisize him for what he did rahter look at what happened and see what we can all learn from it.

May he RIP.

Matt

(Sorry for errors, no spell check)
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
Trolley Dolley
Posts: 548
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2000 1:57 pm

RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:20 am

Matt. I'm saddened how you interpreted my response as being critical of the gentleman concerned. Please read reply 23 and you'll see that I have vigorously defended his and his family's right to privacy, dignity and respect. You'll also note that I have been directly affected by suicide and mental health issues relating to depression.

I have not judged him in anyway.
 
diesel1
Posts: 1482
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 9:11 am

RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:19 am

Quoting Aerofan (Thread starter):
Does anyone know the complete story behind the dead VS pilot who was found in the Caribbean this week?

Can't even be bothered to read this.

The only story is to have some respect for the dead.

Anyone suggesting anything other than that should be ashamed of themselves.
I don't like signatures...
 
ua777222
Posts: 2987
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:23 am

RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:42 am

Quoting Trolley Dolley (Reply 30):
Matt. I'm saddened how you interpreted my response as being critical of the gentleman concerned. Please read reply 23 and you'll see that I have vigorously defended his and his family's right to privacy, dignity and respect. You'll also note that I have been directly affected by suicide and mental health issues relating to depression.

I have not judged him in anyway.

I am even more sorry that you interpereted my responce that way. The first paragraph aw was in response to what you said, the rest was my own opinion not geared towards anyone.

Take care and sorry for the misunderstanding.

Matt
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
Sheraboam
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:48 pm

RE: Story Behind Dead VS Pilot In The Caribbean?

Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:29 am

Look, every one settle down, I think the curiousity on here to know why is for the same reasons I do.........did the job do it? Was it work issues?

He and his family have a right to privacy and to rest in peace, but our basic human instincts , want to know why, just as in my neighbor being shot to death last week, no news story no nothing , but a cop coming around and asking us if we saw anyone leaving. My girls want to know as do I What the hell happened??? 2 day's ago a big arrest was made at the same house, and we still don't know why. Human nature is filled with curiousity and if it wasn't, do you think orville and wright would have explored further and got an aircraft in the air? Don't bash those who want to know, from their basic human instinct and curiousity.

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