jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:35 am

Bad news for Mesaba.

http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuot...2005-09-23_21-35-28_wen9742_newsml

LOS ANGELES, Sept 23 (Reuters) - Mair Holdings Inc. (MAIR.O: Quote, Profile, Research) , parent of Mesaba Aviation Inc., said on Friday that Northwest Airlines Inc. (NWACQ.O: Quote, Profile, Research) will remove from service the 35 regional jets operated by Mesaba,
Northwest's schedule provides that nine of the jets will be removed from service as of October 31, while the remaining leases will be terminated effective December 20.

[Edited 2005-09-24 00:35:57]
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:38 am

Didn't they just get these not that long ago?
 
N766UA
Posts: 7843
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:38 am

Are these the new CRJs that are coming around or are they ARJs?
This Website Censors Me
 
User avatar
alberchico
Posts: 2947
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 5:52 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:40 am

how many laid off pilots does this translate to ?
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:45 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 2):
Are these the new CRJs that are coming around or are they ARJs?

I don't think they have 35 ARJs, so I'm going to go with CRJ.
 
flyf15
Posts: 6633
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:10 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:48 am

These are the ARJs. .
 
nwafflyer
Posts: 888
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:29 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:05 am

They have 35 ARJ's - they had 36, but one was damaged in Memphis - this does surprise me a bit though, although I believe these are leased, not owned
 
flyf15
Posts: 6633
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:10 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 9:03 am

Oh, also, they will be getting an even trade for CRJs... 35 new CRJs are coming in.

These CRJs, along with NW DC-9s, will be replacing the ARJs.
 
Jano
Posts: 745
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2004 1:48 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 9:26 am

They mean these aircraft
http://www.nwa.com/travel/trave/seatm/arj/index.shtml

The most comfy RJ out there! They have the widest seat in the NW fleet.
The Widget Air Line :)
 
Mikey711MN
Posts: 1231
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:19 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 9:26 am

This obviously creates a bigger service gap between the regional ops (max: 50 seats) and the mainline ops (min: 100 seats) that IMHO will set up nicely for a middle tier of 70-90 seat aircraft pending scope clause changes with the pilots. I've flown on the ARJ a few times, and I'll surely miss them.

-Mike
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
Jano
Posts: 745
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2004 1:48 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 9:29 am

Or maybe NW is preparing to negotiate with lessors or NW pilots... These ARJ can seat 85 people, but are configured with 69 seats only (16F + 53Y), because of 70 seat cluase in NW pilots' contract.
The Widget Air Line :)
 
CIDFlyer
Posts: 1890
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:19 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 10:48 am

too bad...that is one of the most comfortable planes they have
 
m404
Posts: 1875
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 4:43 pm

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:23 pm

I'd bet that this is only to get better lease rates on the same acft
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
jmc1975
Posts: 2893
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2000 10:57 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:31 pm

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 7):
These CRJs, along with NW DC-9s, will be replacing the ARJs.

Wow! Using DC9s to replace a fleet type? Classic!
.......
 
burnsie28
Posts: 5035
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:49 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:33 pm

Well it sounds to me that soon Aspen may only have service via America West Express. Since UA may stop BAe Flying, and now NW.
 
N501US
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 1:51 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:40 pm

Quoting M404 (Reply 12):
I'd bet that this is only to get better lease rates on the same acft

You are correct; I believe these a/c have been identifed to be grounded IF they cannot negotiate better lease terms.
Fools and thieves are well disguised in the temple and the marketplace.....
 
COERJ145
Posts: 1140
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:22 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:19 pm

NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! Not the ARJs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
ejmmsu
Posts: 1647
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:05 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:32 pm

The Avro RJ in the NW configuration was the most comfortable coach product in the US market (aside from Midwest). It will be a shame to see them go.

My only hope is that a reorganized NWA will have some E-Jets at some point.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4423
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:40 pm

Quoting CIDflyer (Reply 11):
.that is one of the most comfortable planes they have

But they're slow and noisy. One ride on old Air California was enough for me; didn't their Electras have faster block times?
 
uadc8contrail
Posts: 1636
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:23 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 3:29 pm

Maybe ual/uax can get some of the ARJs...rumor i heard tonight was that zw told ual to take 146 deal and shove it after the april ski season......
bus driver.......move that bus:)
 
frugalqxnwa
Posts: 550
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 3:18 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 3:34 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 18):
But they're slow and noisy

They are faster than Q400s and much quieter than most aircraft (I believe they are stage 4 compliant by a large margin). The one time I rode the ARJ it was quieter than the A320 series inside the cabin.
 
764
Posts: 486
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 6:34 pm

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:22 pm

Well, there is one noisy thing about them - the flaps. Those sound horrible. But other than that they are great aircraft and I cannot understand why NW would want to get rid of those and replace them by CRJs of all things. Seriously, this is a really bad move IMO.
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:32 pm

Well there goes all the ASE service they were talking about.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
meister808
Posts: 924
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2000 11:45 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 10:11 pm

I wonder what this means for all the pilots Mesaba just hired to fly the new CRJs... they surely are on some pretty shaky footing now, since they are at the bottom of the seniority list and I would assume the Avro pilots will now be taking the CRJ spots.

Shame, because I know a good number of people that got hired for the CRJ there. I guess having friends laid off is just a part of being in aviation, though.

-Meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4463
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 11:22 pm

What happened to Azjubilee the Mesaba ARJ pilot on this board? He could give us the correct info.
 
bluejackets
Posts: 279
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 11:23 pm

What irony. I just booked NW CMH-MSP yesterday with both legs on ARJs on 11/23-11/26. I get on a.net and find out the Avros may be in their final month with NW when I fly them. It will be a trip to cherish as I've always admired the unique design and comfort of the 85. Hopefully NW can workout a new lease deal and they can keep flying with a red tail!
It's funny when I tell people I love planes and they think I'm weird.
 
tnsaf
Posts: 122
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:58 pm

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sat Sep 24, 2005 11:43 pm

This is, as others have said, is a ploy to get the lease rates reduced. Standard practice in CH11. Where are the lessors going to go? There is no other home for these aircraft. They will give in to what ever the new dictated lease rate is set at. Relax!
700 hours and counting...
 
CIDFlyer
Posts: 1890
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:19 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sun Sep 25, 2005 12:56 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 18):
But they're slow and noisy. One ride on old Air California was enough for me

yes, but remember, NW's planes only have 69 seats, where as other's may have crammed 85 seats, thus you have a very comfortable seat pitch. The NWA ARJ's are very roomy. May not be the most beautiful plane, but they are a lot more comfortable than the CRJ's. Hopefully this announcement will will preceed an announcement that they will be getting either the E70/90 or CR7/9 which would be more comfrotable than the CRJ's
 
Derik737
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:53 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:00 am

Excerpt from the article at
http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/5632426.html

Joel Denney, an airline analyst for Piper Jaffray & Co. in Minneapolis, said bankruptcy is forcing Northwest executives to carefully examine how to restructure the fleet and aircraft costs.

"The Avro is a comfortable aircraft from a passenger perspective," Denney said, and includes a first-class cabin. But he emphasized that the four-engine plane is expensive to operate. He indicated that Northwest may be attempting to renegotiate lease terms on the Avro, and Northwest could have substantial leverage because there are few, if any, leasing alternatives for the craft.

Denney also thinks Northwest will want to renegotiate the airline services agreement it recently signed with Mesaba.

Also Friday, MAIR Holdings reported that Northwest CEO Doug Steenland has resigned from MAIR's board of directors. MAIR spokesman Jon Austin declined to comment about Steenland's resignation as well as MAIR's announcement about the planned fleet downsizing.

For the fiscal year that ended in March, MAIR Holdings had $7.4 million in net income and $456 million in operating revenue. Almost all of that revenue came from Mesaba Airlines, which Costello said has about 3,945 employees, including about 1,585 in the Twin Cities.

On Friday, Mesaba's Spanjers said he had decided to cancel CRJ classes for flight operations and maintenance that were scheduled for next week. Mesaba has been gearing up to expand operations because of the planned addition of the 15 CRJs.

Now that Mesaba will be reducing its Avro flying, Costello said management is reviewing how to deploy staff.

Kris Pierson, a spokesman for the Mesaba branch of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), declined to comment Friday night about the upcoming fleet changes. "Mesaba management did not give any notice to Mesaba ALPA or contact us about this issue," Pierson said, so pilots are attempting to secure more information.


Also it was mentioned that Mesaba is scheduled to receive another payment Monday from Northwest, but Mesaba spokeswoman Elizabeth Costello did not speculate about whether Northwest would make it.

I don't believe they have been paid for the first missed payment of $19 million.

[Edited 2005-09-24 18:02:32]
 
NLINK
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2003 3:20 pm

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:21 am

Bad news is LH city line wants more ARJ.
 
BOS2LAF
Posts: 353
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:21 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:53 am

Theres one thing people seemed to have missed:

First Steenland gets signed to a 1yr non-compete with NW.

Then he resigns from MAIR's board of directors.


Methinks something is going on here. The two things I mentioned above could be completely unrelated, but either way, something seems odd about this.
 
N908AW
Posts: 863
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:05 pm

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:19 am

For years XJ has been the sole/major regional affiliate to NW. But things have evidently gone sour now seeing as 9E has almost knocked XJ off the pedestal. Could this be a middle-aged marriage gone awry?
'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
 
m404
Posts: 1875
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 4:43 pm

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:21 am

Steenlands move might be more of a way out of a "conflict of interest" situation. Either way his plate is full.
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
baw2198
Posts: 587
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:20 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:32 am

Quoting Derik737 (Reply 28):
But he emphasized that the four-engine plane is expensive to operate

Does anybody have some numbers they could plug in to figure this statement out? How does a 4 engine turbofan beat out a 40 year old JT8D series in fuel consumption?

Quoting Derik737 (Reply 28):
Mesaba has been gearing up to expand operations because of the planned addition of the 15 CRJs.

Great, more cramped spamcans to ride in  irked 



Would this have anything to do with that skydrol leak in memphis?
"And remember, Keep your stick on the ice"--->Red Green
 
jamesjoyce
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:36 am

Quoting Frugalqxnwa (Reply 20):
They are faster than Q400s and much quieter than most aircraft (I believe they are stage 4 compliant by a large margin). The one time I rode the ARJ it was quieter than the A320 series inside the cabin.

The current Avro ARJ is nowhere near stage-4 compliant.
 
KarlB737
Posts: 2634
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:37 am

Courtesy: The Minneapolis/St. Paul Business Journal

More Info:

http://www.bizjournals.com/industrie...2005/09/19/twincities_daily52.html
 
NLINK
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2003 3:20 pm

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:45 am

It would not suprise me to see NW do the same thing for the SF340's that NW subleases to XJ. There are so many Saabs parked now, NW probably could get the lease rates lowered a bit. I believe the CRJ lease rates are already pretty low.
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:50 am

Quoting CIDflyer (Reply 27):
yes, but remember, NW's planes only have 69 seats, where as other's may have crammed 85 seats

Could this be adding to CASM's especially in this day of high fuel prices... making the ARJ's uncompetitive to even the CRJ? (when you take into account the 4 vs 2 engines for maintenance as well)
 
Planesmart
Posts: 1735
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sun Sep 25, 2005 7:05 am

An expensive plane to operate. There are some anomalies in the leases, reflecting sub-leases, etc.

Potentially a win win for Mesaba. Almost instantly regularise and reduce airframe and engine leases (and convert all to power by the hour), or if no satisfaction, switch to plan B (there could be quite a few options).

Tidies up the finances. Could there be a change in ownership on the horizon?
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sun Sep 25, 2005 7:11 am




Quoting BAW2198 (Reply 33):
Does anybody have some numbers they could plug in to figure this statement out? How does a 4 engine turbofan beat out a 40 year old JT8D series in fuel consumption?



I suspect maintenance factors are the main drawbacks to the Avro. Specifically, parts cost and availability. Also, I'd love to see their dispatch rate and compare it to the CRJ.




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
stirling
Posts: 3897
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:00 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sun Sep 25, 2005 7:22 am

Wonder if FlyBE is interested?
At least in the short term while their Jungle Jets start to arrive?
CitiExpress?
Delete this User
 
frugalqxnwa
Posts: 550
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 3:18 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sun Sep 25, 2005 8:04 am

Quoting Jamesjoyce (Reply 34):
The current Avro ARJ is nowhere near stage-4 compliant.

Interesting, since one of the major selling points of the Avro was the low noise level. But then again, things have changed since the original 146 came out 20 years ago.
 
AsstChiefMark
Posts: 10465
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:14 pm

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sun Sep 25, 2005 8:23 am

I'd better book a ticket right away. I want to fly on one.  Sad

Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
LCH
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:19 am

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sun Sep 25, 2005 8:41 am

Does this mean the aircraft will be withdrawn from XJ use effective Desember 20th? They're still scheduled for flights to GFK in January, any I can't imagine they'll be able to replace ALL of them with DC-9s or CRJs right away? Does this mean ARJ flights will be cut, or shedules altered?
 
N908AW
Posts: 863
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:05 pm

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:47 am

Quoting LCH (Reply 43):
Does this mean the aircraft will be withdrawn from XJ use effective Desember 20th? They're still scheduled for flights to GFK in January, any I can't imagine they'll be able to replace ALL of them with DC-9s or CRJs right away? Does this mean ARJ flights will be cut, or shedules altered?

Depends on the situation. Midwest airports will see the schedules being altered (my airport has 2x ARJ scheduled for December), whereas airports outside of their territory will probably just see the route cut.
'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
 
LUVRSW
Posts: 481
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:15 pm

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:54 am

Only 15 CRJ's on order, 2 delivered. 35 AVRO's history. Senior Capt., FO's will bump down to the Saab's. When they are gone, then they will bump down to CSA's. Big grin
 
pensacolaguy
Posts: 484
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:41 pm

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:30 am

It is a shame that NW/Mesaba is getting rid of there ARJs..Guess just CRJs now on MEM-PNS  thumbsdown  Maybe someone will buy the 35 ARJs, and use them.  idea  Is the ARJ more expensive to operate then the CRJ? The demise of the ARJ is upon us...

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Muchswatch
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Nathan Zalcman

 
membase
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 2:31 pm

RE: Bad News For Mesaba...35 RJ's To Be Grounded.

Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:01 pm

Quoting Frugalqxnwa (Reply 41):
Interesting, since one of the major selling points of the Avro was the low noise level. But then again, things have changed since the original 146 came out 20 years ago.

But the noise they do make is quite odd. Everytime they fly over my house coming out of MEM, it sounds like all four engines were cut. The first time I heard one I ran for cover.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: aaflyer777, alasizon, BreninTW, ChristopherS, coolian2, DeltaB717, elron, IndianicWorld, jm079, kabq737, L1011, Majestic-12 [Bot], Mexicana757, skedguy, SyeaphanR, trex8, United1 and 226 guests