ATLFlyer323
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Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:05 am

With all the negativity about this airline being discussed I thought I might ask a question like they did survive. If Olympic Airlines (and I SAID IF) does survive would a fleet commonality or advancement be in the works? I know they have a lot of older 737's and like 2 or 3 boeing 717. For long haul they have their A340's and for inter island the ATR's. I was wondering if any of you A.Netters thought about what their future fleet plans might be?
~Brandon
Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:17 am

Latest rumor i've heard is a wealthy Greek American is interested in pursuing parts of the airline. He's looking to introduce three long-haul Boeing a/c to replace A340's.

Maybe someone from Greece can shed some lights.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:26 am

One needs to remember that even if Olympic survives and overcomes this latest challenge by the EU, the airline continues to bleed money every day.

With the companies current bloated staffing and Greek civil service mentality the airline will continue to loose monies and cannot even dare to consider the acquisition of new aircraft that would add to the huge debt burden it carries.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
ATLFlyer323
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:32 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):

With the companies current bloated staffing and Greek civil service mentality the airline will continue to loose monies and cannot even dare to consider the acquisition of new aircraft that would add to the huge debt burden it carries.

True, Olympic really needs someone who knows how to run an airline before it can aquire new aircraft. Not looking at that aspect I was just curious what would be in their future if they have one.
~Brandon
Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
 
Orion737
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:56 pm

I raised this exact topib under same thread title a few months ago and was poo-pooed by everyone on Airliners for daring to aise the issue of OA fleet renewal.

I must say I thought replacing their ageing 737 classics and 340s with a long haul twin would be a top priority.
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:51 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 1):
Latest rumor i've heard is a wealthy Greek American is interested in pursuing parts of the airline.

Pfffew, misread your post. I only read the rich Greek part and the name Stelios popped up instantly... But he's no American.

Cheers!  wave 
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
ATLFlyer323
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:56 am

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 4):
must say I thought replacing their ageing 737 classics and 340s with a long haul twin would be a top priority.

Ya I wonder if they will buy all new Airbus and keep the A340's, or keep the ageing 737's and new 717's and build a newer longhaul fleet, and maybe some new 737's.
~Brandon
Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
 
georgiabill
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:22 am

I think in the short term Olympic would be wise to try to obtain A332's to replace the A340's. The cost of training the crews would be less than say Olympic switching to 777's. They however need to drastically reduce their employee numbers and improve inflight service!
 
OA269
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:18 am

Helloooooo the 340s belong to the gonvernment not to Olympic.

So if they actually follow the Swiss model (as rumours say and I supported in this forum) OA will re-open with less staff/acs but probably keep most of their pilots including those trained for the 340s. I can foresee any leased 734 will go so only company-owned a/cs will fly which means lower frequencies on each destination (for the beginning) or closure of some destinations (very unlikely).

Forget any a/cs upgrade at the beginning (the above fleet will do for 1 year till profit comes), if I'm not wrong they have found the 717s incompatible with the fleet and are supposed to be sold, anyone knows? And also the same with the (wonderful for me) A306 which have already gone.

Fleet is not the no1 problem now, but the choice of a good private manager (state ownership only 25%). Employee numbers are much less than 10 years ago (previous gonvernment though failed they still managed to reduce staff a lot), so a scheme like the above will make a mini-Olympic work but with much higer standards till some profit comes and why not an alliance so it can expand.
 
ATLFlyer323
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:31 am

So OA269 that would leave Olympic with what, the ATR's, the 733 and 734 's that they own, and are you suggesting they give back the A340's and start smaller scale operations only or do you think they will continue their select few LONG routes?
~Brandon Makrides  Smile
Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
 
olympic707
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:47 am

If OA expands their long haul routes, OA may need to get some A340-500/600s.
 smile 
Yanni
Fly Olympic - Aviation GREEK STYLE!
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:14 am

Quoting Olympic707 (Reply 10):
If OA expands their long haul routes, OA may need to get some A340-500/600s

Greece being a small seasonal leisure market of only 11million people. Does it really make sense to support long haul routes?

Probably makes better economic sense to revert to solely European and regional flying, somewhat along the lines of Belgium which has near identical population.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
ATLFlyer323
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:26 am

I agree laxintl, If Olympic can survive I would think they would probably be best to serve the European markets and try and make a profit and get some newer aircraft. Do the current routes served by the A340's make large profits?
~Brandon Makrides
Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:53 am

Olympic has already pruned its international network in the recent years and dropped Australia, Japan, Thailand, Singapore. Basically all that remains today is North America and service to Johannesburg.

While I do not know the economics of South Africa, no one makes money on the North Atlantic during the winter months unless one operates on a very high yield business route, which Greece is not.

Maintaining a small fleet of A340s must be quite an expensive affair. A seperate cadre (I'm sure very senior) of pilots, separate maintenance tooling and parts etc..

It seems Olympic has maintained its long haul capacity more out of prestige reasons to serve the Greek diaspora around the world, then on any sound economic grounds. Then again, what if anything at Olympic is based on sound business?
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
ba321
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:33 am

I agree A343's should go for A332's as at the momeent the A343's seem to be operating to LHR regularly, not what they were designed for at all, an A332 would be much better suited for the Longhaul/Medium Haul Trunk routes. However i think a more pressing problem is the 733/4 situation.
Fly safe, ba321
 
adriaticflight
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:38 am

I've flow with Olympic a few times and i have to say the flights were very nice. However they are so far behind all the competition in terms of aircraft and inflight quality that i am not surpised that people avoid them. However lets not forget that Olympic has to maintain a very extensive and deeply unprofitable domestic route network. I was on a flight to a beautiful and tiny island called Kitheria a few years ago and there were 3 of us on the ATR42.
The fact that Greece has so many internal connections that are life-lines to the communities they serve is always going to weight it down.
My dream for the airline (if they suddenly got some money from somewhere) would be some nice 737-600 and 737-800 for European/Mid-East routes. Greece's location is perfect to develop a nice mid-east to Europe transit point...now they just need the aircraft and service to go with the nice new Athens airport.
Adriaticflight
 
ATLFlyer323
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

Quoting Adriaticflight (Reply 15):
Greece's location is perfect to develop a nice mid-east to Europe transit point

I agree with you totally. If they could balance flght out both ways it could benefit them. I have to wonder if Olympic were to replace their 737's if Airbus would work with them better than Boeing like they did with US Airways?
~Brandon
Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
 
kaneporta1
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:58 am

Quoting Olympic707 (Reply 10):
If OA expands their long haul routes, OA may need to get some A340-500/600s.

I assume everyone knows that OA is based at ATH, a new international airport that was built as the largest and most modern southeast Europe hub. The A-345 could work on direct routes to MEL and SYD but only if the airline would seek to carry passengers from all over Europe, instead of just Greek people. Emirates is already doing this and makes some good money. The 772LR would be a better choice as an aircraft, but it would involve a lot higher training costs, ETOPS/ LROPS certification for the airline etc.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 11):
Greece being a small seasonal leisure market of only 11million people. Does it really make sense to support long haul routes?

Olympic's long haul routes are currently the most profitable routes. Also read my comment above, flying long haul out of ATH to the Far East would make a lot of sense.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 13):
While I do not know the economics of South Africa, no one makes money on the North Atlantic during the winter months unless one operates on a very high yield business route, which Greece is not.

The ATH-JFK route is the most profitable route on OA's network, with load factors over 90% all year round. The routes to YUL and JNB are second and third in terms of profit making.

Quoting Ba321 (Reply 14):
I agree A343's should go for A332's as at the momeent the A343's seem to be operating to LHR regularly, not what they were designed for at all, an A332 would be much better suited for the Longhaul/Medium Haul Trunk routes. However i think a more pressing problem is the 733/4 situation.

I would think a mix of A332s and A333s would suit OA better, assuming the network remains as it is now. The 333s would be better for the north Atlantic routes where the load factors are really high while the 332s would be suitable for high density European routes such as ATH-LHR or ATH-CDG.

So far Olympic operates 4 A343s, 1 A306, 3 717s, 15 733,4s and 13 ATR 42,72s.

In my opinion the sole remaining A306 and 3 717s, although amazing aircafts, should go. The A340s will stay since the government owns them. The ATRs should also stay because although they're absolutely horrible to fly in, they're very cheap to operate and maintain, and very well suited for the Greek island routes. As far as the 737s go, I have no clue, maybe OA should get a bunch of secondhand DC-9s from NW to replace them...
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
 
ATLFlyer323
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:04 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 17):
As far as the 737s go, I have no clue, maybe OA should get a bunch of secondhand DC-9s from NW to replace them...

Hehe very clever.

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 17):
In my opinion the sole remaining A306 and 3 717s, although amazing aircafts, should go.

Umm the A306 has been gone for a while now and I think OA dosen't like there 717's and someone talked about them getting rid of them.

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 17):
The A340s will stay since the government owns them.

I agree, so it would make sence them to try and replace the ageing Boeings with some Airbus short/medium haul aircraft. (I still see Airbus giving OA a better deal if they did choose to purchase Airbus)

~Brandon
Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:42 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 17):
The ATH-JFK route is the most profitable route on OA's network, with load factors over 90% all year round.

Well your information could not be farther from the truth. Here are the 2004 OA JFK-ATH-JFK loads factors. Keep in mind, the loads if anything were skewed upwards in 2004 due to the Olympics.

Jan04 -65%
Feb04-55%
Mar04-73%
Apr04-62%
May04-67%
Jun04-74%
Jul04-76%
Aug04-77%
Sep04-81%
Oct04-72%
Nov04-59%
Dec04-65%
AVERAGE - 69%
(all data courtesy of USDOT T-100 stats)

I also know for a fact OA has a difficult time with yields across the Atlantic as it captures minimal business traffic and mostly caters to Greek VFR and tourist via network of consolidator travel agencies.

I would be willing to bet Olympic has not had a yearly profit across the Atlantic at least for the last half decade.
Olympics market position was much better during the 70s/80s competing against the Pan Am/TWA's of the world then were they are today.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Aleksandar
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:54 am

Quoting OA269 (Reply 8):
they have found the 717s incompatible with the fleet and are supposed to be sold

I think they were leased so OA could easily return them to the lessor (I think the deal is expiring already).

Quoting Ba321 (Reply 14):
I agree A343's should go for A332's

Together with 333, possibly 2 of each would be good solution, but 343 is relatively young plane (five years old).

Quoting Adriaticflight (Reply 15):
some nice 737-600 and 737-800 for European/Mid-East routes.

Some time ago, OA advertised the arrival of 737NG on their website and it all sounded like a deal already made (they were talking about 737-700s).
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
 
kesflyer
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:02 pm

Airbus all the way for me.

A320 family for Europe, Middle East, North Africa and Main Domestic Points.

A330s for North America and South Africa.
Re-introduction of Australian services via SIN or BKK and to be succesful they would definitely need to feed European passengers via ATH. There are alot of Serbs, Croats, Macedonians in OZ and they have no direct services ( or EK flights ) to OZ so could work for them as well.

ATR family for smaller islands and DH8 for the smaller runway airports.

Could work for them, however they really need to do something about the unions there and also a more friendly cabin crew. Admittedly have travelled with OA from Melbourne to Athens several years ago on the A340. Food was excellent, IFE was terrible and the cabin crew were also great. Maybe the cabin crew is more select on long haul ???

Good luck to them anyway as woudl be a shame to see this airline disappear with it's great paint scheme.
 
brightcedars
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:34 pm

I think Olympic is the kind of ideal candidate for the Boeing 737-600/Airbus A318 types. They have few short routes as far as non-domestic flights are concerned, many routes are 3 hours or more. For London, add to that either a Boeing 737-900ER or an Airbus A321, this should do. As far as longhaul is concerned I think they should reduce further their ambitions and focus on a single entry point to the US: probably JFK. Maybe one Boeing 767-300ER, 777-200ER or an Airbus A330-200/300 isn't economical so in that case skip the special type for London and use a second longhaul type. Actually they may not have the option to avoid having 2, how long is ATH-JFK flight time?

As far as domestic flights are concerned, propellers should do the bulk since the distances are so short that there is no real advantage to the use of jets. Maybe use jets larger than a Boeing 737-600/Airbus A318 on those key routes where capacity demands it.

Conclusion: get a very reasonable number of NG 737s since there is only 1 economical engine choice compared to Airbus' narrow body offer and the advantage of not switching the entire fleet and training to Airbus (look at Sabena). Add to that a couple longhaul frames or keep only two of the A340s. Give a much higher standard in all classes on European flights since the distance justifies the pampering not offered between shorter city pairs or by no-frills airlines.
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D950
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:01 am

Quoting ATLFlyer323 (Reply 18):
Umm the A306 has been gone for a while now and I think OA dosen't like there 717's and someone talked about them getting rid of them.

The 717's are headed to Bangkok, and Olympic did like them, and their fuel numbers.
Resting on your laurels is a synonym for flirting with disaster
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:45 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 19):
Well your information could not be farther from the truth. Here are the 2004 OA JFK-ATH-JFK loads factors. Keep in mind, the loads if anything were skewed upwards in 2004 due to the Olympics.

Making a profit doesn't always mean they do this with passengers only. Maybe OA is having a good deal on hauling cargo on their long-haul flights. So, maybe you are farther away from the truth.

Cheers!  wave 
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
olympic707
Posts: 193
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:07 am

Quote:

Well your information could not be farther from the truth. Here are the 2004 OA JFK-ATH-JFK loads factors. Keep in mind, the loads if anything were skewed upwards in 2004 due to the Olympics.

Jan04 -65%
Feb04-55%
Mar04-73%
Apr04-62%
May04-67%
Jun04-74%
Jul04-76%
Aug04-77%
Sep04-81%
Oct04-72%
Nov04-59%
Dec04-65%
AVERAGE - 69%
(all data courtesy of USDOT T-100 stats)

That data is way off. In October of 2002, I flew from JFK-ATH, the A340 had 5 seats that were empty, they were towards the rear of economy class (possibly no-shows). On my return trip ATH-JFK, the A340 was COMPLETELY full! That is in October, the summer months are full too. On the same trip I also flew to ATH-SKG 737 was full, KVA-ATH 737 was full.
Must book early on OA or the flights will be sold out.  yes 

Yanni
Fly Olympic - Aviation GREEK STYLE!
 
olympic707
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:18 am

Quote:

Greece being a small seasonal leisure market of only 11million people. Does it really make sense to support long haul routes?

Yes, it does. Outside of leisure/tourist, there are Greeks all over the world that visit Greece for many reasons, at all times of the year. I have family in Greece, I prefer to fly OA.  smile 

Yanni
Fly Olympic - Aviation GREEK STYLE!
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:27 am

Yanni,

Help yourself and do as many searches as you want going back to all the way to 1990 and see what Olympics true loads are.

http://www.transtats.bts.gov/Tables....ic%29&DB_Short_Name=Air%20Carriers

You'll need to download the T-100 International Segment report.

Just because you have flown on a few full flights does not mean an airline always has a load factor of 90%+. (btw Oct 2002 LF% was 79%)

Run the reports and you'll see.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
olympic707
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:12 am

RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:32 am

Quote:

I assume everyone knows that OA is based at ATH, a new international airport that was built as the largest and most modern southeast Europe hub. The A-345 could work on direct routes to MEL and SYD but only if the airline would seek to carry passengers from all over Europe, instead of just Greek people. Emirates is already doing this and makes some good money. The 772LR would be a better choice as an aircraft, but it would involve a lot higher training costs, ETOPS/ LROPS certification for the airline etc.

I agree. OA has 4 A340s, it would be a better choice to get A340-600 for passenger capacity especially for North American routes. A340-500 for Asia / Australia routes. A318, A319, A320, possible A321 for inside Greece / European and Middle Eastern routes.

Yanni
Fly Olympic - Aviation GREEK STYLE!
 
olympic707
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:12 am

RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:46 am

Quote:
Yanni,

Help yourself and do as many searches as you want going back to all the way to 1990 and see what Olympics true loads are.

http://www.transtats.bts.gov/Tables....ic%29&DB_Short_Name=Air%20Carriers

You'll need to download the T-100 International Segment report.

Just because you have flown on a few full flights does not mean an airline always has a load factor of 90%+. (btw Oct 2002 LF% was 79%)

Run the reports and you'll see.

All I'm saying is, I always been on a full OA flight and people I know been on a full flight from JFK-ATH, ATH-JFK. Why else would people have to book early on OA flights?

Yanni
Fly Olympic - Aviation GREEK STYLE!
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Olympic Fleet Upgrade?

Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:23 am

Quoting Olympic707 (Reply 26):
Yes, it does. Outside of leisure/tourist, there are Greeks all over the world that visit Greece for many reasons, at all times of the year. I have family in Greece, I prefer to fly OA

This is exactly one of Olympics problems.
Flying pockets of low yield Greek diasporas on a handful of prestige routes around the world at revenues inadequate to provide an economic return. Smartly several routes including Australia have been pruned already.

Much of Olympics existence is based on puzzling policies from a business perspective. The airline continues to be characterized as inefficient with an overstaffed highly unionized labor force, suffers from low labor productivity, aging fleet, bureaucratic management, and, above all, over-politicization

Olympic has only managed to shown an operating profit for a single year since 1977. In fact for four years in a row during the early 1990s, the airline did not even close its financial books and publish official records as no one wanted to take responsibility for the mounting losses.

Now that continued bailouts and subsidies are no longer available Greece must face the realities that its national airline finds itself in. Whether this means Olympic goes the way of the Sabena or Swissair so be it.

Greece deserves a good quality efficiently run intra European / domestic airline. Maybe Aegean with the help of the Star Alliance will be able to achieve this with the arrival of its recently ordered Airbus fleet in the coming years.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California

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