sq212
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Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:41 pm

Article summary:
- version 787-10 with fuselage 6m longer than 787-9
- passenger seating essentially the same size as 772
- Boeing currently in "study phase"
- EK is close to making the selection
- BA wouldn't need the aircraft until 2010, but "production slots" would be available if opted for 787 over 350.

http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=2490

Cheers
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:48 pm

How reliable is this website? I've never heard of it before.

Still, why would Boeing cannibalize its own market for the 772 by offering the -10 with equal capacity? Boeing the 772 and 787 are long range airliners, I dont see why Boeing would offer both if they basically did the same thing.
 
Xkorpyoh
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:52 pm

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 1):
till, why would Boeing cannibalize its own market for the 772 by offering the -10 with equal capacity? Boeing the 772 and 787 are long range airliners, I dont see why Boeing would offer both if they basically did the same thing.

787-10 = 772's suicide is better than getting killed by the bigger A350
 
Danny
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:52 pm

It's only PR BS so that EK delays further their A350 order.
 
blsbls99
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:10 pm

The site is reliable. The post articles 5 days a week. They also publish ATW Magazine - Air Transport World.
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jacobin777
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:24 pm

Intersting.......considering EK has been hounding Boeing with this for quite some time...if Boeing does decide to go along with it, I think EK and possibly BA might step upto the plate and go with it.......

the 777-200 has served its purpose........the 777-300 and the 777-200LR are the two 777 series Boeing is focusing on now......
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dalecary
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:26 pm

The only news here is BA being interested. Last week's FI mentioned that Beoing had proposed the 787-10 lengthened fuselage/reduced range to EK and the 787-9 Heavy to QF( a 20t heavier,longer ranged,but not lengthened fuselage 789).
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:32 pm

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 2):

787-10 = 772's suicide is better than getting killed by the bigger A350

To me I see this as a money-wasting issue. 772LR already has the same range as the 787 or close to it, why design an equal airplane if one has already been flying for (by this time) a good 3 years up on the A350?
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:40 pm

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 1):
How reliable is this website?

ATW is a reliable web-site provding excellent aviation coverage 5 days per week
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SNATH
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:39 pm

Quoting Dalecary (Reply 6):
Last week's FI mentioned that Beoing had proposed the 787-10 lengthened fuselage/reduced range to EK and the 787-9 Heavy to QF( a 20t heavier,longer ranged,but not lengthened fuselage 789).

...and this was discussed in length here for anyone who's interested:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2336415

But, yes, the fact that BA is interested in the -10 is new, and very interesting IMHO since they are already a big B772ER customer. Do you guys think that they are considering the B787-10 as an eventual B772ER replacement? 'Cause it's probably a bit too big for a direct B763ER replacement.

Tony
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Glareskin
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:23 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 5):
the 777-200 has served its purpose

Yep, you better start considering to change your name....
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HEGAN
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:55 pm

If the 787-10 can perform as well as the rest of the family is suposed to do, they should go ahead, but if the 787 was designed as a 757/767 replacement, and clearly it is a success. Strategicaly it is posicioned in one segment of the market, trying to compete in 2 segments could be risky.

If making the -10 as big as the 772, can affect its performance, and somehow can damage the all family image.

Agur,
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sq212
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:35 pm

Quoting Dalecary (Reply 6):
The only news here is BA being interested.

Another new to me is the length extension of the fuselage. About 8/12 ft longer than 350-900/772.

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 10):
Yep, you better start considering to change your name....

773ER and 772LR will last a long long time.

Cheers
 
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:40 pm

Zvezdas dream coming true....!

I hope this wont start killing the 772ER, but it probably will.
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zvezda
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:20 pm

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 7):
To me I see this as a money-wasting issue. 772LR already has the same range as the 787 or close to it, why design an equal airplane if one has already been flying for (by this time) a good 3 years up on the A350?



Quoting DeltaWings (Reply 13):
I hope this wont start killing the 772ER, but it probably will.

The B787-10 will be able to perform most missions that the B777-200ER is capable of performing, but at a much lower operating cost and a much lower purchase price. The B787-10 will not be able to perform typical B777-200LR missions. The B787-10 will surely kill the B777-200ER but the B777-200LR still has a long life ahead.

For many missions, the B777-200ER cannot hold its own against the A350-900. Why would Boeing concede that market to Airbus when they can so easily hold on to it by stretching the B787-9? It's an easy stretch. They don't need to change the wing or add doors. The landing gear might or might not need some changes (does anyone here know?). Obviously, the fuselage needs to be extended, but that's easy with the composite construction. Also, a little more thrust will be needed than for the B787-9, but that's no problem because the engines for the A350-900 will have enough thrust for the B787-10.
 
DeltaWings
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:39 pm

One big difference between the 787-10 and the 772 will be the fuselage cross section. While the 777 has a maximum of 10 abreast (normaly 9), the 7810 will have a maximum of 9 abreast (normally 8), like the A340/50.
That was one thing i found better on the 777, compared to Airbus with the A340/350.

Now that the 787-10 will replace the 772ER, would B also consider to replace the 772 with, say a 787-5?
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zvezda
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:56 pm

Quoting DeltaWings (Reply 15):
Now that the 787-10 will replace the 772ER, would B also consider to replace the 772 with, say a 787-5?

First, the B787-10 will be able to perform virtually any B777-200A mission and will do so at much lower cost. Anyway, over the last 7 years, NH ordered 3 in Dec 2001 and CX bought the prototype in Dec 2000 after Boeing gave up trying to sell it to UA.

Second, I do think a stretch of the B787-3 is possible, but perhaps only a 6 meter stretch (to 62 meters). The B787-3's wing may not be sufficient for a 68 meter long version. Then again, Boeing may wait until the B787-3 is flying, then calculate exactly how much they can stretch it without modifying the wing, and then that will be the length of the B787-4. It doesn't necessarily need to be the same length as the B787-9 or B787-10.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:16 pm

Quoting HEGAN (Reply 11):
If the 787-10 can perform as well as the rest of the family is suposed to do, they should go ahead, but if the 787 was designed as a 757/767 replacement, and clearly it is a success. Strategicaly it is posicioned in one segment of the market, trying to compete in 2 segments could be risky.



Quoting Dalecary (Reply 6):
The only news here is BA being interested. Last week's FI mentioned that Beoing had proposed the 787-10 lengthened fuselage/reduced range to EK and the 787-9 Heavy to QF( a 20t heavier,longer ranged,but not lengthened fuselage 789).

Presumably the MTOW increase for the 787-9H is part of the design for the the 787-10 proposal. As such it would seem to be a new base model to enable head to head competition with the A350.

Quoting DeltaWings (Reply 15):
Now that the 787-10 will replace the 772ER, would B also consider to replace the 772 with, say a 787-5?

Wouldn't any 787-10 already have lower weights than the 772A, which after all was a heavy aircraft?
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whitehatter
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:22 pm

Interesting in that Boeing look like they could have learned the lessons of the 764 and 753. Namely that the stretch is desirable to airlines but needs to be available much earlier in the product cycle.

The only cloud on the Boeing horizon is going to be whether the 787 testing and early EIS data shows up any problems with operating composite bodies in airline service. This step really is as revolutionary as when the Comet and 707 first brought fast pressurised aluminium fuselages into airline use. Taking composite technology into a whole new field (as the Comet and 707 did when higher ceilings and speeds became regular) is not without its difficulties as there will be whole new ways of thinking and working to be devised.

Think of it like this. How will a 788 cope with a heavy landing at somewhere like Port Harcourt in Nigeria? We've seen the pictures of 763s with huge creases. How will composites react under similar extremes and how can they be economically repaired or patched up for ferry?

All this needs to be addressed by Boeing before they can start stretching the aircraft or the whole program could spiral hopelessly out of control and over budget.
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zvezda
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:39 pm

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 18):
How will a 788 cope with a heavy landing at somewhere like Port Harcourt in Nigeria? We've seen the pictures of 763s with huge creases. How will composites react under similar extremes and how can they be economically repaired or patched up for ferry?

Do we actually know that the MLW will be lower than the MTOW? It is for all aluminium aircraft and I think it would be for composite aircraft too, but I'm not certain. Does anyone know for sure?
 
jacobin777
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:50 pm

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 10):

Yep, you better start considering to change your name....



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 5):
.the 777-300 and the 777-200LR are the two 777 series Boeing is focusing on now......



Quoting Sq212 (Reply 12):
773ER and 772LR will last a long long time.

thank you.. Smile
"Up the Irons!"
 
keesje
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:20 pm

Quoting DeltaWings (Reply 15):
and then that will be the length of the B787-4. It doesn't necessarily need to be the same length as the B787-9 or B787-10.

787-3, 787-8, 787-9, 787-10.. 787-4?

Most aircraft I know were launched in 1 or 2 versions, this seems a costly roadmap to me.
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atmx2000
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:34 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 21):
Most aircraft I know were launched in 1 or 2 versions, this seems a costly roadmap to me.

Not all of them are coming at once, and really only the 788 and 783 are launched. And given the number of derivatives in the A330 and A340 family that were planned early on, there doesn't seem to be any thing unusual about Boeing's plans, other than the fact that three lengths are being looked at.
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tockeyhockey
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:41 pm

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 7):
why design an equal airplane if one has already been flying for (by this time) a good 3 years up on the A350?

it's simple -- it's because the planes aren't going to be equal. the 787-10 will make the 772 look like a gas guzzler!

i see nothing wrong with boeing making their own plane obsolete. it's a sign that they are moving very very quickly and are in step with customer demands.
 
Ken777
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:43 pm

It will be interesting to see how Boeing engineered the base planes - the 783 and the 788. Were they designed within a limited range, or are the -10 (and -4) covered by the initial engineering? If the -10 and -4 were included from day one in terms of basic engineering then there are probably some very happy engineers (and salesmen) in the back room these days. Boeing would be very happy to cover everything from the 757 to the 350 with the 787.

The inclusion of BA is a surprise and shows that they are thinking about new planes a bit more than some of us thought.
 
luisca
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:05 am

i think we are starting to see a new trend in aviation, Were one or 2 families will cover a wide range of airline needs.

The lets call it proposed 787-10 will probably be a 777-200A replacement. It would probably be used in high density routes out of Dubai and in BA's case to the british overseas colonies. It is not in my opinion a 777-200ER replacement.

By the way, can somebody please break down the 787 variants, I dont understand them in B's website, witch is the 767 replacement, witch is the A330 replacement, witch is the A310-A300 replacement? witch are light with little range, witch are heavy long range planes, etc.

[Edited 2005-09-26 17:16:10]
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MidnightMike
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:23 am

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 1):
How reliable is this website? I've never heard of it before.

ATW, a very reliable website........

[Edited 2005-09-26 17:23:52]
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atmx2000
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:32 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 25):
The lets call it proposed 787-10 will probably be a 777-200A replacement. It would probably be used in high density routes out of Dubai and in BA's case to the british overseas colonies. It is not in my opinion a 777-200ER replacement.


Range and pax capacitywise, a 787-10 will certainly be a replacement for both aircraft. But whether it, like the 359, will be capable of flying the full complement of 772ER missions.
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Geo772
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:34 am

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 2):
Still, why would Boeing cannibalize its own market for the 772 by offering the -10 with equal capacity? Boeing the 772 and 787 are long range airliners, I dont see why Boeing would offer both if they basically did the same thing.

You could say the same thing about the A330 and A340, the answer is that they would serve different customers. The 787-10 is unlikely to have the range of the 772ER so would be more suitable for shorter range markets.
Also the earliest 772 would be 15 years old in BA's fleet come 2010, and the early ones were shorter range aircraft.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 25):
By the way, can somebody please break down the 787 variants

The 787-8 is a 762 replacement with 8500nm range
The 787-9 is a 763 replacement with 8200nm range
The 787-3 has the same fuselage as the 787-8 but with only 3500nm range.

The proposed 787-10 would be a bit bigger than the -9 and would likely have about 7500nm range.

The wing on the -3 is much smaller than the other varients.
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:52 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 25):
The lets call it proposed 787-10 will probably be a 777-200A replacement. It would probably be used in high density routes out of Dubai and in BA's case to the british overseas colonies. It is not in my opinion a 777-200ER replacement.

Well, given the fact that 787-9 has 15,300km range, the 787-10 range could be somewhere around 14,500km - 14,800km, which is bigger than 777-200ERs range of 13,900km with lower fuel burn.
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LifelinerOne
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:09 am

Now call me a fool, but if EK is to order the 787-10 in let's say 60 firm + 60 options will you all be calling EK a foolish airline as you are all doing when they order such numbers at Airbus?  scratchchin 

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luisca
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:12 am

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 30):
Now call me a fool, but if EK is to order the 787-10 in let's say 60 firm + 60 options will you all be calling EK a foolish airline as you are all doing when they order such numbers at Airbus?

Yes, I would still call them fools, even tough I am a huge B fan, I just cant see EK needing that many planes.
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atmx2000
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:29 am

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 30):
if EK is to order the 787-10 in let's say 60 firm + 60 options will you all be calling EK a foolish airline as you are all doing when they order such numbers at Airbus?

Not if they cancel their A380s and A346s  Wink
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gigneil
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:49 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 16):
The B787-3's wing may not be sufficient for a 68 meter long version.

The 787-3's wing is identical to the other two. The only difference is the wingtip treatment.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 25):
It is not in my opinion a 777-200ER replacement.

It will be as big as the 772ER and feature comparable range. How is it not?

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 28):
The 787-8 is a 762 replacement with 8500nm range

The 787-8 is longer and wider than a 767-300ER.

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 28):
The 787-9 is a 763 replacement with 8200nm range

The 787-9 is longer and wider than a 767-400ER and longer than an A330-200 or A350-800.

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 28):
The wing on the -3 is much smaller than the other varients.

Its not. It has a different wingtip treatment to limit span and improve short field.

N
 
Glom
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:51 am

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 30):
Now call me a fool, but if EK is to order the 787-10 in let's say 60 firm + 60 options will you all be calling EK a foolish airline as you are all doing when they order such numbers at Airbus?

I don't think people would be calling EK foolish for ordering 60+60 787s or A350s. People are considering the likes of 40 A380s excessive. 60 A350s for QR is considered more foolhardy because I guess people aren't as confident about QR chances of becoming that strong given EK's prominence.
 
zvezda
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:50 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 27):
Range and pax capacitywise, a 787-10 will certainly be a replacement for both aircraft. But whether it, like the 359, will be capable of flying the full complement of 772ER missions.

Actually, the B787-10 will probably have better range than the B777-200ER, but will not have the payload capacity.

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 28):
The 787-8 is a 762 replacement with 8500nm range
The 787-9 is a 763 replacement with 8200nm range
The 787-3 has the same fuselage as the 787-8 but with only 3500nm range.

The proposed 787-10 would be a bit bigger than the -9 and would likely have about 7500nm range.

The B787-9 is quoted by Boeing as having 8300nm range, not 8200nm. The B787-10 may have 8000nm range. All of these are likely to be revised upwards. Boeing are notoriously conservative in range estimations.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 33):
The 787-3's wing is identical to the other two. The only difference is the wingtip treatment.

Different wingtips do not account for a 6-8 meter difference in wingspan. My understanding is that they have the same airfoil, but that the B787-3 is foreshortened significantly before the different wingtip is attached.
 
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ODwyerPW
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:34 am

Take a look at Embraer's consecutive launch of 4 Derivaties. Initially, they were planning only the 170, 190-100 and 190-200. After discussions with customers, they turned the E-Jets program into the 170, 175, 190 & 195 somewhat very early in the program.

It wouldn't be at all impossible for Boeing to rapidly turn out derivatives.
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yowza
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:28 am

I suppose IL96s are in the works for EK too. Please...

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ER757
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:48 am

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 30):
Now call me a fool, but if EK is to order the 787-10 in let's say 60 firm + 60 options will you all be calling EK a foolish airline as you are all doing when they order such numbers at Airbus?

Yes! Whether it's the A350 or the 787 or some combination of the two. With all the A380's and other models they already have on order, how will they fill 60 (or more) additional widebodies???
 
kaitak744
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:26 am

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 28):
The 787-8 is a 762 replacement with 8500nm range
The 787-9 is a 763 replacement with 8200nm range
The 787-3 has the same fuselage as the 787-8 but with only 3500nm range.

The proposed 787-10 would be a bit bigger than the -9 and would likely have about 7500nm range.

At this point, there is no 767-200ER/757-200 replacement. The 787-8 replaces the 767-300ER. In the future, there may be a 787-5 or something to do the task.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:49 am

>> The 787-8 replaces the 767-300ER. In the future, there may be a 787-5 or something to do the task.

In my opinion, not likely. The 787-3/8 are the 777-200A of the 787 family, Boeing has stated they built the 787 platform for growth. This is why a 787-10 is even being discussed at this point.

The composite construction is very versatile, but surely with the advent of a 737NG/757 replacement, Boeing will address the need for an aircraft smaller than the 787-3. At least, in a more sensible way than a further 787 derrivitive below the three already being discussed at the moment.
 
DeltaWings
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:36 pm

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 28):
The 787-8 is a 762 replacement with 8500nm range
The 787-9 is a 763 replacement with 8200nm range
The 787-3 has the same fuselage as the 787-8 but with only 3500nm range.

Id say this:

The 787-8 replaces the 767-300ER, A300 B4
The 787-9 replaces the 767-400ER, A330-200, A340-200
The 787-3 replaces more or less the 767-300.

The 787-10 will replace the 772
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zvezda
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RE: Boeing Looks At Larger 787 For EK, BA

Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:18 pm

Quoting DeltaWings (Reply 41):
The 787-8 replaces the 767-300ER, A300 B4
The 787-9 replaces the 767-400ER, A330-200, A340-200
The 787-3 replaces more or less the 767-300.

The 787-10 will replace the 772

It's really not nearly so simple. The B787 opens up markets that were not possible before. Also, for example, while the B787-10 supplants the B777-200ER for most missions, there is a narrow range of missions the B777-200ER can perform that the B787-10 simply cannot. That's true for most of the B787-n replaces [whichever model or models] in this thread. Each airline must look at the missions they wish to fly and then select the appropriate airliner. Different airlines fly different sets of missions which is one of the main reasons why some airlines select Airbus and some select Boeing. It all depends on the mission.

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