TinkerBelle
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1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:05 am

Lemme start by saying this is a great site. I've been an addict of the site for a year and finally joined today thus this is my first post so don't be so hard on me.

Anyways, I was watching on CNN the B6 A320 emergency landing @ LAX last week just like half of the people here (I personally think the whole deal was waaaay blown out of proportion with the media coverage and all) and there was this Captain Hearns (or something like that) talking about how he landed a DC-10 on a full emergency back in 1989 with no flight controls whatsoever. He pretty much said to this date he has no idea how they ended up on the runway although Thank God they did. I've been looking for news on that all over the web but cannot find it and I thought someone here must know something about it. Any info on it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
N60659
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:08 am

Quoting TinkerBelle (Thread starter):
Captain Hearns

Capt. Al Haynes.

Here is a good account of the accident:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_flight_232

BTW, welcome.

-N60659
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TinkerBelle
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:18 am

Woow! Still cannot fathom landing such a large aircraft using throttle control alone. Thanx for the link.... can"t believe I couldn't find it for a week.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
positiverate
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:21 am

Quoting TinkerBelle (Thread starter):
he landed a DC-10 on a full emergency

As opposed to a half emergency?  Smile
 
bond007
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:54 am

It was all caught on film too !

NASA has been a lot of testing with controlling airliners by using thrust only, in cases where all hydraulic power is lost.

This has to be one of the 'most' famous crashes....especially since it's all on film.


Jimbo
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Starlionblue
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:57 am

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 2):
Woow! Still cannot fathom landing such a large aircraft using throttle control alone. Thanx for the link.... can"t believe I couldn't find it for a week.

As Bond007 mentions, NASA then managed this in a more controlled fashion (well, they had practiced in a simulator). The objective was to make a system that would allow control with throttles alone to a survivable landing. I think if Haynes and co had had more sensitive throttle control and some practice they would have done even better.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
bond007
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:00 am

I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
jeckPDX
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:32 am

Other good sources would be aviation safety network's accident database or www.airdisaster.com which lists accident and incidents by year. I also am told Capt. Al Haynes has his own website, (and also one raising money for a terminal illness his son? has.) Good luck on your search, there is TONS of info out there about this accident and several good books describing the accident in detail from the point of the #2 engine failure until it slammed into the runway at Sioux City.

Welcome to a.net and don't even bother with its most useless feature, the repected users list! Hope to see more of your posts

Cheers

JeckPDX
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September11
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:39 am

There are four Airliners.net photos of that fateful United DC-10.

Most recent one (1984):


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dave Campbell

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BAe146
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:27 pm

Here's a transcript of a speech about the incident, by Capt. Haynes. It's a very excellent read! http://www.clear-prop.org/aviation/haynes.html

[Edited 2005-09-27 05:28:50]
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:19 pm

Thanx JeckPDX... Glad to be here.
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levg79
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:51 pm

If you're really interested in that crash, I suggest you watch "A Thousand Heroes"
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104020

Here's a link that describes the accident:
http://www.airdisaster.com/special/special-ua232.shtml

I know there's a video of the actual crash somewhere on the net, but I'm too tired to search now.......I'm about to go to sleep.

Hope this helps.

P.S. Welcome to the forum.
A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
 
AR385
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:56 pm

So far, the best account of this accident I've read comes on the Air Disaster book no. 2 You can get it on Amazon.com if you find it difficult to get in any bookstore.

There are also other recent incidents of planes being flown by their throttles alone, the DHL A300 plane in Baghdad that got shot down is an example.

Another not so recent, is the JAL 123 accident, but in that one only 4 survived.

Welcome to the forum, it's a fantastic site for all airliner lovers. Have fun
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:03 pm

Thanx AR385. I'd love to read about the accident in a book format and will look up the book on Amazon. Call me naive but I never thought it possible to fly a big plane on throttle only but I guess coz I'm a new pilot and hopefully I don't ever have to do it unless it's on a sim.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:30 pm

Captain Haynes deserves every ounce of credit for leading his crew and what they accomplished on that day. I don't know how often this is mentioned, but DC-10 Training Check Airman Denny Fitch was riding in first class that day, and was asked to come up to the flight deck by Capt. Haynes to assist and offer input to the problem. It was Denny Fitch I believe who determined that asymmetical power (using the engines to make turns) was the only option to make turns, getting them as close to landing (I think 10 seconds more and they would have had both mains on Rwy. 22) at SUX.

Following the incident, several DC-10 crews tried to recreate the incident, and none got as close to the runway. Some ended up on a highway, others not even that close.
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NorthstarBoy
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:19 pm

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 14):
Following the incident, several DC-10 crews tried to recreate the incident, and none got as close to the runway. Some ended up on a highway, others not even that close.

yeah, i read somewhere that they actually programmed that accident into the UA DC-10 sims, and the closest they ever came was 2 miles from the airport.

it does make you wonder how he did it, some would say he had some "help" from above, if you catch my drift
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AR385
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Tue Sep 27, 2005 5:21 pm

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 14):
DC-10 Training Check Airman Denny Fitch was riding in first class that day, and was asked to come up to the flight deck by Capt. Haynes

While I don't believe the word "credit" should be applied to anyone on this case I'd like to make some points.

1. Captain Alfred Haynes did not call up Captain Dennis Fitch. He offered to come up to the cockpit to do whatever was needed.

2. Upon landing (or crashing) the only one on the cockpit not seated, belted or shoulder harness restrained, was Capt. Fitch because he needed to keep working out the throttles. This put him in a bad predicament and he knew it. Among the many miracles on this story, one is the fact that the whole cockpit crew, including Capt. Fitch, in particular, survived.

3. CRM may be rejected or taken up as a joke by many but it is clear that in this case, it had a lot to do with the high survival rate and the excellent handling of the aircraft by the crew. That's why I said at the beginning that the word "credit" did not really apply here.

4. Sioux City itself saved many lives, by having a comprehensive disaster plan that was periodically rehearsed. One city in the South has recently shown how important preparedness is, or the lack of it in that case but I don't want to open a can of worms here.

To this day, although I'm no expert of course, I can't fathom how that plane reached a suitable landing spot, let alone an airport or a runway. It is, really beyond belief. Plus, by being able to reach the airport and put the plane there it made it possible to have a lot of emergency equipment available instantly, a fact that saved many lives, given that 24 of 35 passengers in the centre section who survived the impact itself, died of smoke inhalation on the ground. For certain, if the crew had ditched or landed on a field, this number would have been much greater.

I believe that this was an incredible feat of airmanship by everybody involved that will go down in the history of civilian flying forever, or at least until Star Trek style transport is available.
 
vunz
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:36 pm

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 11):
I know there's a video of the actual crash somewhere on the net, but I'm too tired to search now.......I'm about to go to sleep.

It's also on Airdisaster.com
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:11 pm

Thanx for the video link. Now, did Captain Haynes fly for United again after the accident? Sounds like the crew survived, thanx to great skill and like Captain Haynes himself put it, 'a whole lot of luck'.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
richierich
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:05 am

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 18):
Thanx for the video link. Now, did Captain Haynes fly for United again after the accident? Sounds like the crew survived, thanx to great skill and like Captain Haynes himself put it, 'a whole lot of luck'.

It is my understanding that Capt. Haynes did return to UA to fly again, in DC-10s no less. However, it took a while after the SUX crash and he was close to retirement anyway. I would also like to say that this was not a "emergency landing" or just an "incident" - people died on that flight that day. I think it is safe to call it a crash. Thank God as many survived as they did!

Capt. Haynes is viewed by many as a hero because he did amazing things with very little control over the big jet. Sometimes you only get one shot at a landing attempt and he was lucky even to get that. And, yes, this was one of the first major crashes to be caught on videotape, something that was played over and over again on the late night news back in 1989.

As a side note, he was very much in the news a couple of years back because his daughter was sick (if I remember correctly, she needed a bone marrow replacement or something awful like that). Her odds were not good at finding a donor but Capt. Haynes notoriety helped in getting a lot of people to see if they were a match. I regret that I do not know the outcome of this but I hope that it turned out favorably.
None shall pass!!!!
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:59 am

You're right Richierich, that was definitely not just an incident or an emergency landing coz a lot of people lost their lives. I honestly didn't know anything about this crash until I heard Captain Haynes talking about it on CNN last week but I guess now I know enough about it. I'm still amazed that one can fly a Cessna on throttle only leave alone a DC-10 full of passengers.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
spacecadet
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:07 am

I think it is safe to call it a crash.

It's semantics, really, and it changes nothing, but I'd call it a "crash landing". The fact is they did land on the wheels. I think knowing that just makes it an even more impressive feat. They didn't just slam into the ground, as the word "crash" implies. They landed, the gear collapsed, the wing came off, and that's what set off the "crash".

If it wasn't for the phugoid effect, which was worsened by the fact that their ailerons were stuck in the "up" position (a little detail that usually doesn't get much mention), they may have even been able to make a safe landing. They landed so hard because the plane entered one of its phugoid oscillations at exactly the wrong time. So they weren't quite as "lucky" as they could have been. It was *skill* and crew training (including CRM) that got them to the airport; it was *bad* luck that cost those 110 or so lives.
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AR385
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:40 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 19):
Capt. Haynes is viewed by many as a hero

I don't believe there was one single hero in this accident. Granted, Capt. Haynes may be un-intentionally media friendly but the whole crew was a hero. But if I had to choose a hero, I would say it was Capt. Dennis Fitch.
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:58 am

Not sure if anybody really can say one individual was a hero coz after everything I've read and heard about this, the whole crew were heroes in my mind.......but just for the sake of argument, since we're for the most part talking about Captain Haynes here, he is a hero. Big grin
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
flyman33178
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:08 am

wow....

I am feeling a little old now..
UAL DC-10 Sioux City Iowa

Remember it like yesterday!!

That crew saved alot of lives that day.
 
UA772IAD
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:36 am

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 14):
Following the incident, several DC-10 crews tried to recreate the incident, and none got as close to the runway. Some ended up on a highway, others not even that close.

Question.
Do pilots now train for this situation in the simulators? Obviously, what happened to UA232 was such a rare mechanical catastrophe (not sure if it happened before, but it hasn't happened since then), but is there training for this situation?
 
birdbrainz
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:52 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 4):
NASA has been a lot of testing with controlling airliners by using thrust only, in cases where all hydraulic power is lost.

I'm told that everyone (Douglas, UA, NASA, etc. test pilots) who tried it failed.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
I think if Haynes and co had had more sensitive throttle control and some practice they would have done even better.

Al Haynes said that phugoids did them in. Apparently, a phugoid is a self-induced pitch oscillation that came and went as the plane descended and approached the field. I remember something about the approach going amazingly well until a phugoid started at < 100 ft, and this is what caused the plane to cartwheel.

Please forgive me if I'm wrong about this. I remember this from an AW&ST article published more then 10 yr ago. Also, I'm not a aerodynamic expert, only someone who read about it.

About training for it, there's really no way to do that. It was such a freak accident that any such reoccurance would be totally different anyhow.
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:57 am

I did read captain Hayne's transcript but maybe I'm missing something here. How the heck did they end up on the runway with just throttle control from 34000 feet? I think I read somewhere the crew wanted to land at another airport but couldn't. Maybe I'm just being naive here but I'm not a big believer in luck.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
richierich
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:57 am

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 25):
Question.
Do pilots now train for this situation in the simulators? Obviously, what happened to UA232 was such a rare mechanical catastrophe (not sure if it happened before, but it hasn't happened since then), but is there training for this situation?

If I had to guess, I'd say no. Obviously pilots train for a lot of scenarios in a simulator but I doubt they specifically train for the environment Haynes and company found themselves in in 1989, at least on a normal basis.

Crash landing, crash, geez.... The plane broke into hundreds of pieces and a lot of people died. I think the word crash is an adequate description, despite the fact it happened at an airport. I'm sure you are right, Spacecadet, the NTSB probably has their own categorization process (and a lot of red tape) and in their speak it might well be a crash landing. But I didnt think a crash had to be where everybody died.

I hate it when people mince my words. I said Haynes was a hero to many people because of his actions that day. I didn't say he was the only hero - there were lots of people who went above and beyond the call of duty during the whole crisis.
None shall pass!!!!
 
SLUAviator
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:56 am

Here is link to the summary on the NTSB website. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001213X28786&key=1
What do I know? I just fly 'em.......
 
N1120A
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:07 am

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 15):
yeah, i read somewhere that they actually programmed that accident into the UA DC-10 sims, and the closest they ever came was 2 miles from the airport.

it does make you wonder how he did it, some would say he had some "help" from above, if you catch my drift

No, he had help from the back. He had the DC-10 check captain on his flight, so you had 4 experienced DC-10 pilots working in that cockpit. Simulators are not always fully able to mimic real life handling

Quoting Richierich (Reply 19):
I would also like to say that this was not a "emergency landing" or just an "incident" - people died on that flight that day. I think it is safe to call it a crash.

A crash landing is a good description
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AR385
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:59 am

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 25):
Obviously, what happened to UA232 was such a rare mechanical catastrophe (not sure if it happened before, but it hasn't happened since then),

Yes it has, The DHL A-300 shot down in Baghdad is one to come to mind

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 26):
I remember something about the approach going amazingly well until a phugoid started at < 100 ft, and this is what caused the plane to cartwheel.

The plane never cartwheeled, the wingtip the engine and the gear hit the ground inverting the plane and it remained in that position

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 26):
About training for it, there's really no way to do that.

Yes there is training for that, and it has helped many crews in situations where at least the majority of the hydraulics are gone. I'm not sure when training for this occurence became mandatory buy I know that the Captain of the AA plane that decompressed over Windsor early in the 70's had trained and practiced for such a situation. Which in the end saved everyone on board.

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 27):
I think I read somewhere the crew wanted to land at another airport but couldn't.

They wanted to land at Des Moines International, but the controller, seeing how uncontrollable they were, ammended that to Sioux city.

Quoting Richierich (Reply 28):
The plane broke into hundreds of pieces and a lot of people died. I think the word crash is an adequate description, despite the fact it happened at an airport.

Very big pieces of the plane remained intact, which among other things contributed to the high survival rate. The problem here is the video. The video shows a fiery disintegration of an aircraft, but it was not like that. The plane just turned on its back once and skidded, breaking, not disintegrating, but you can't see that on the existing video. I don't think "crash" applies here.

As having had help from the back or from "above" that is a matter of faith. Personally, I agree with N1120A
 
UA772IAD
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:06 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 31):
Yes it has, The DHL A-300 shot down in Baghdad is one to come to mind

True, but the causal circumstances were very different. There is no combat training, in civil aviation (to my knowledge). That plane was SHOT at... totally different from the other engines absorbing debris from a desintegrating engine.
 
AR385
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:22 am

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 32):
True, but the causal circumstances were very different. There is no combat training, in civil aviation (to my knowledge). That plane was SHOT at... totally different from the other engines absorbing debris from a desintegrating engine.

I really don't understand your post. Which engines are you talking about that ingested debris?

In any case, have you heard of "Unusual Attitude Recovery Training" or "Total Loss of Hydaulics Training"? Most of these protocols came directly from the military, and are part of recurrent civil aviation sim. training.

And it makes no difference. The plane lost its hydraulics, period. Wether it was shot at or had an uncontained engine failure.
 
CcrlR
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:27 am

Quoting N60659 (Reply 1):
Capt. Al Haynes.

Here is a good account of the accident:

I've heard him speak several times and he's been on EVERY news channel talking about the JetBlue incindent and his own with the DC-10. There was a video presentation on the accident and I hope to meet him someday. bouncy 
"He was right, it is a screaming metal deathtrap!"-Cosmo (from the Fairly Oddparents)
 
Av8trxx
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RE: Flying A Plane On Throttles Alone

Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:33 am

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 13):
Call me naive but I never thought it possible to fly a big plane on throttle only

It has been done before and to a successful landing with only minor injuries!

While UA 232 had the misfortune of having a number 2 uncontained engine failure that was the catalyst for their loss of hydraulics, another DC-10 (N103AA) had a total hydraulic loss 17 years prior and managed to maneuver to an airport for a successful emergency landing. Their success was undoubtably due to their #2 engine still being functional as that engines throttles were used for pitch control.

Ironically Bryce McCormack, the captain of that flight, hypothesized this exact scenario and asked to create it in the simulator just two months prior to the actual event on June 12, 1972!

To prepare McCormick for the changeover to the DC-10, American Airlines summoned him to its Fort Worth, Texas, training center in March 1972. One afternoon, McCormick told his instructor that he was worried about losing the hydraulic system. He asked for extra time on the simulator to determine if he could control and then land the giant airplane without a hydraulic system, using nothing but the engine throttles. McCormick was pleasantly surprised to find that he could. With a few more hours of simulator practice, McCormick was able to take off, fly around, and land using only the three throttle levers. He steered left by pulling back on the left-hand engine and advancing the right-hand engine; he steered right by doing the opposite. He made the DC-10 climb and descend by adjusting power on the tail-mounted engine, whose location on the fin gave him considerable leverage. from "Inviting Disaster" by James R. Chiles

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19720612-0
 
birdbrainz
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:43 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 31):
Yes there is training for that, and it has helped many crews in situations where at least the majority of the hydraulics are gone. I'm not sure when training for this occurence became mandatory buy I know that the Captain of the AA plane that decompressed over Windsor early in the 70's had trained and practiced for such a situation. Which in the end saved everyone on board.

I sure have made myself clearer. Complete loss of hydrualics is trained for.

However, you can't really train for the exact same failure as UA232. How are they supposed to train for something when no one has ever suceeded in getting the airplaine back on the ground when that happens?

I seem to remember something about additional hydraulic check-valves being retrofitted to existing DC-10s after that accident. Is that true?
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
AR385
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RE: 1989 DC10 Emergency Landing

Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:52 am

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 36):
I seem to remember something about additional hydraulic check-valves being retrofitted to existing DC-10s after that accident. Is that true?

What you are saying is what they did. They retrofitted the whole hydraulics system with valves that would automatically close when rate of leakage exceeded certain parameters. Therefore saving some hydraulic liquid and pressure. I am not sure, however if they installed the modifications on all the DC-10's out there. You have to keep in mind that the whole course of events was so improbable that some questioned its benefit. At the same time I believe they came up with a software that would fly the plane on throttles only and land it, but I don't have much knowledge on that one so I might be wrong.

The MD-11 had a completely redesigned, new system that took advantage of the experience gained with the previous hull losses due to hydraulic problems.

[Edited 2005-09-29 00:17:14]