A330DAT
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SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:37 am

SN Brussels Airlines is getting rid of the Airbus A319. They are for sale by the owner of the aircraft, namely BAE Systems and are available on the market "immediately".

The flights now operated with the A319 (e.g. Tel Aviv, Moscow, etc...) will one by one be phased-out and taken over by Virgin's Boeing 737 aircraft. The aircraft cabins will be retrofitted to the "full service" requirements of SNBA.

The A319 Cockpit and Cabin Crew will be later transferred to SNBA's 4th A330. And so, it will not be necessary to hire many extra people for the extra Long Haul aircraft.

The A319 are simply much more expensive to lease and operate than the older Virgin Express Boeing 737's.


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pelican
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:47 am

Quoting A330DAT (Thread starter):
The A319 are simply much more expensive to lease and operate than the older Virgin Express Boeing 737's.

While I understand the costs of leasing are higher for the A319, I don't understand why the operating costs are higher)  confused 
Do you (anybody) know why?

pelican
 
A330DAT
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:01 am

Pelican, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Of course older aircraft will end up being more expensive to operate than new ones. What I tried to explain was the fact that SNBA and Virgin Express have merged into one holding company called 'SN Air Holding'. What is more expensive is the fact that they are operating different aircraft types, which results in higher costs (operationally, spare parts, training, etc...) Getting rid of one of the two will result in better efficiency thus better savings.
 
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Vasu
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:04 am

So is the SNBA merger happening at the moment? Will the 734's be painted in SNBA colours?
 
pelican
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:08 am

Quoting A330DAT (Reply 2):
What is more expensive is the fact that they are operating different aircraft types, which results in higher costs (operationally, spare parts, training, etc...) Getting rid of one of the two will result in better efficiency thus better savings.

Thanks, makes perfectly sense. Although it sounds like the will have to replace the 73Gs sooner than they would have the A319...

pelican
 
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:40 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 4):
Thanks, makes perfectly sense. Although it sounds like the will have to replace the 73Gs sooner than they would have the A319...

Virgin Express has 737-300s and -400s, 73G's are (newer) 737-700s...

In the newest Aviation World there was an article about SN Brussels and, I expected to read about their plans to pick up more A-319s slowly to build up more medium length and the busiest destinations in Europe, mid east and North Africa, I was already surprised their CEO said firmly there would be "no extra A-319s" so a swap to the old 737s is logical to me. More 737-300s and 400s are readily available and still good and not too fuel thirsty.
By the time these get too old, around 2010, A-319s and 73Gs should be relatively cheaper to pick up and operate.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
SWISSER
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:55 am

Quoting Vasu (Reply 3):
So is the SNBA merger happening at the moment?

Virgin Express is already owned by SN air holding, so in fact there wont be a "merger".

I saw a recent article where they where talking with SN management about a future fleet type,wich they quickly shifted to the best leasing conditions and the operation of the A319/A330 MFF for better operational purposes.

A strange move, but a logic one if it is indeed confirmed.
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EddieDude
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:59 am

Quoting Vasu (Reply 3):
Will the 734's be painted in SNBA colours?

Anybody?

Funny fleet they will end up with:

Avro RJ85's and 100's, Boeing 737 -400's and -500's, and Airbus A330's.
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brightcedars
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:24 pm

Doesn't anybody realize that we seem to be talking about a reduction in overhaul capacity? I mean TV has 10 737s and SN has 3 A319s. There is no talk of adding Classic 737s to compensate for this loss of 3 units so actually they seem to be giving up quite a lot of capacity.

Anybody has a clue if they will compensate by adding used RJs?
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MEA-707
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:32 pm

their ARJs are underutilized a bit. My bet is there is room to put current ARJs on routes now flown by the 737 or A-319, or they'll cancel some loss making Virgin routes.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
FlySSC
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:33 pm

Quoting A330DAT (Reply 2):
What is more expensive is the fact that they are operating different aircraft types, which results in higher costs (operationally, spare parts, training, etc...) Getting rid of one of the two will result in better efficiency thus better savings.

Well, it would sound more logical to me that they keep the A319 and get rid of the B737s, as they already operate the A330 on long-haul !

They would save even more money in maintenance and operation costs as the same Crew can fly both type ...
 
workhorse
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:03 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10):
Well, it would sound more logical to me that they keep the A319 and get rid of the B737s, as they already operate the A330 on long-haul !

They would save even more money in maintenance and operation costs as the same Crew can fly both type ...

Well, they probably don't have the money to buy (or lease) 10 A319's.

It's a pity indeed, those 319's were lovely to fly on.
 
sn26567
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:10 pm

This seems totally unrealistic.

1) Some destinations (MOW, TLV, IST, ...) cannot be served by an ARJ in adverse weather conditions.

2) The A319 is sometimes used as a backup plane for the A330 when one of these goes technical.

3) The change of ownership of the A319 does not mean that SN will abandon them. They can just sign a contract with the new owner. And, incidentally, it is not BAe Systems which is the owener of the A319s.

4) The current management team of SN has no power to take such important decisions. They will wait for the nomination of a new Chairman and a new CEO.

Where does the rumour come from?

Andre
ex-Sabena #26567
 
A330
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:32 pm

this decision has been made already months ago Andre!

Take my word for it.
Shiek!
 
FlySSC
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:22 pm

Quoting Workhorse (Reply 11):
Well, they probably don't have the money to buy (or lease) 10 A319's.

You are probably right ... And it is sad. "replacing" A319 with B737, even NG, is a step backward...and a step in the wrong direction ! but they certainly have no other choice.

 cry  I like those SN's A319 ...  cry 


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gkirk
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:23 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 14):
And it is sad. "replacing" A319 with B737, even NG, is a step backward

Explain please. Or is that just another thinly veiled anti Boeing bash?  Yeah sure
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brightcedars
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:26 pm

I'm hearing that competition is stiff on the 'ethnic' routes and current offering isn't that good. This could see the scrapping of CMN and IST. Left would be DME and TLV. I think DME should be reachable by Avro while it seems more realistic to operate a 737 to TLV if they intend to keep the route up. But the recent codeshare agreement with LY could pave the way for removal of own operated service. This would in effect cut the grass off the feet of the entire A319 fleet.

My bet is on a better utilization of the RJ fleet, the cutting of a type (the A319), the rebranding of TV to make it look as part of a family of airlines with different business concepts, and eventually a sizing down of that latter's fleet size to less than 10 units.

The only bright note left is the hypothetical 4th A330. The above sacrifices may be needed to finance this addition.
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FlySSC
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:37 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 15):
Explain please. Or is that just another thinly veiled anti Boeing bash?


"Boeing bash" !!! Why always using the big words !

replacing new A319s by B733 & B734 is not exactely the usual process of renewing fleet among the airlines of the world today ...

They usually go from B733/B734 to B737NG or A320's family ...
very rarely in the other way (except ANA but we know why). See AF, BA, EasyJet, Air Berlin, Lan Chile, Tunis Air, SAA, Aer Lingus, Aeroflot, Air Portugal, etc... etc...
 
PM
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:42 pm

Quoting A330DAT (Thread starter):
The A319 are simply much more expensive to lease and operate than the older Virgin Express Boeing 737's.

But the A319s look so much better!

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 5):
I was already surprised their CEO said firmly there would be "no extra A-319s" so a swap to the old 737s is logical to me. More 737-300s and 400s are readily available and still good and not too fuel thirsty.

I wonder if this is still a hang-over from the brief and unhappy marriage of SN and SR. SABENA were a 737 operator but, I'm told, had their arm twisted by Swissair to re-equip with A320s. This was never a popular move within SN (of old) where the 737 remained the preferred type.

Quoting Sn26567 (Reply 12):
2) The A319 is sometimes used as a backup plane for the A330 when one of these goes technical.

Uh? Which SN A330 routes can be flown by an A319?

Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 16):
The only bright note left is the hypothetical 4th A330.

But I still wonder where it's coming from. If they want a -300 and GE engines but can't afford to buy new, their choice is very limited. If we assume that QANTAS, Qatar and China Airlines aren't going to part with planes they are still taking delivery of, that leaves just Philippine Airlines with 8 and Aer Lingus with 4. Might EI be willing to hand over an aging A333?

The obvious plane for SN is c/n 54, a 1994 A330-300 and the fourth oldest GE plane. (SN already have the three oldest.) It belongs to ILFC but has recently gone to Air Algerie.
 
gkirk
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:44 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 17):

replacing new A319s by B733 & B734 is not exactely the usual process of renewing fleet among the airlines of the world today ...

They will get more money for the A319s though
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brightcedars
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:46 pm

FlySSC, you should know, seeing the flag you're waving, that Lebanon doesn't have the privilege of corrupt or insane decisions. Us Belgians have a crap load history of strategic choices more stupid the one than the other.

An order for 34 Airbus A319, A320 and even A321 to replace a big dozen 737-200s comes to mind. Wonder if Sabena would still be around if they had ordered half that number in 737NGs.

What seems certain is that nobody in the country is willing to invest wisely and strongly in the local airline industry, hence SN's reduced options.
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brightcedars
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:49 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 18):
The obvious plane for SN is c/n 54, a 1994 A330-300 and the fourth oldest GE plane. (SN already have the three oldest.) It belongs to ILFC but has recently gone to Air Algerie.

I think it's also an ex-Air Inter frame, isn't it?
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brightcedars
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:50 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 19):
They will get more money for the A319s though

Are you aware of the part that they are leasing the A319s, not owning them.
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gkirk
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:53 pm

Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 22):
Are you aware of the part that they are leasing the A319s, not owning them.

Nope, thought they owned them/
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PM
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:11 pm

Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 21):
I think it's also an ex-Air Inter frame, isn't it?

I believe it was earmarked for Air Inter (who, by the way, configured their A333s with 400 seats!) but it was delivered to Aer Lingus new. The three SN planes all flew for Air Inter as did #59 which is now flying with Aer Lingus.

The Air Inter order was for 15 A330-300s with GE CF6s to be delivered between 1993 and 1998. The Airbus website confirms that only four were delivered. They are the three now with SN and one now with EI.

The Air Algerie plane I mentioned above is now back with ILFC and is destined for Air Madrid. But that is the plane SN should be chasing!
 
FlySSC
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:12 pm

Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 20):
Wonder if Sabena would still be around if they had ordered half that number in 737NGs.

... or half that number in A319  Wink ...to be better assorted with the A330

Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 21):
I think it's also an ex-Air Inter frame, isn't it?

OO-SFM is ex-Air Inter's F-GMDA (msn 30)
OO-SFN is ex-Air Inter's F-GMDB (msn 37)
OO-SFO is ex-Air Inter's F-GMDC (msn 45)

The Fourth and last Air Inter A333 went to Aer Lingus (F-GMDD now EI-ORD. The fifth aircraft, though painted into Air Inter colors has never beendelivered to the airline).
 
gkirk
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:18 pm

They could probably do with some smaller a/c for flights to the likes of NCL,BRS and GLA, or at least expand their network to allow for more connections through BRU
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SNBA
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:09 pm

Hey,

Do anyone knows if the 737's will wear the SN Brussels Airlines colors instead of the Virgin Express livery?
 
glider
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:17 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 18):
Quoting Sn26567 (Reply 12):
2) The A319 is sometimes used as a backup plane for the A330 when one of these goes technical.

Uh? Which SN A330 routes can be flown by an A319?

They operate these routes with the A319 with a necessary stop (of course)(Dakar,...)
 
FlySSC
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:20 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 24):
I believe it was earmarked for Air Inter (who, by the way, configured their A333s with 400 seats!)

412 seats. Single Y class.

Quoting PM (Reply 24):
The three SN planes all flew for Air Inter as did #59 which is now flying with Aer Lingus.

msn 59 is now EI-ORD, and was F-GMDD for Air Inter, the 4th and last A333 operated by the former French Domestic airline.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 25):
The fifth aircraft, though painted into Air Inter colors has never been delivered to the airline).

Anybody knows the msn of this a/c ? I've seen a (rare) picture of it with the F-WW?? registartion, already in full Air Inter livery, was supposed to be F-GMDE.
 
SNBA
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:49 pm

What about the 737's livery?
 
breiz
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:33 am

Quoting A330DAT (Thread starter):
SN Brussels Airlines is getting rid of the Airbus A319. They are for sale by the owner of the aircraft, namely BAE Systems and are available on the market "immediately".

The fact that the lessor (BAe Systems) has decided to sell these A319 does not necessarily means that the lessee (SN Brussels) will stop leasing them.
It is not uncommon that the owner is changing but the user remains the same.
 
SWISSER
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:39 am

Quoting PM (Reply 18):
Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 5):
I was already surprised their CEO said firmly there would be "no extra A-319s" so a swap to the old 737s is logical to me. More 737-300s and 400s are readily available and still good and not too fuel thirsty.

I wonder if this is still a hang-over from the brief and unhappy marriage of SN and SR. SABENA were a 737 operator but, I'm told, had their arm twisted by Swissair to re-equip with A320s. This was never a popular move within SN (of old) where the 737 remained the preferred type.

Well I remember a quote from an ex SABENA 747 captain saying, "look, and again a new "Airbrol" is landing!" (Brol means crap in Flemish-Dutch).

In my opinion the Airbus move was a good one, but 34 was a bit to much...
the 737's where aging and SN had already A330/A340's in the fleet.

Quoting PM (Reply 18):
Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 16):
The only bright note left is the hypothetical 4th A330.

But I still wonder where it's coming from. If they want a -300 and GE engines but can't afford to buy new, their choice is very limited. If we assume that QANTAS, Qatar and China Airlines aren't going to part with planes they are still taking delivery of, that leaves just Philippine Airlines with 8 and Aer Lingus with 4. Might EI be willing to hand over an aging A333?

The obvious plane for SN is c/n 54, a 1994 A330-300 and the fourth oldest GE plane. (SN already have the three oldest.) It belongs to ILFC but has recently gone to Air Algerie.

well, this is total rumour from me,
but if they want to revert back to Boeing with the 737 VEX deal; I also saw in the AW article about SN that they probably are not looking to replace the A330's before 2008.

Is'nt that the time the B787 comes available?
I mean, this aircraft will be perfect for SN's needs.
Anyway it's a wild rumour from me just looking at what (strange) strategy there might be!

I guess they are simply cheap lease "strategy's" and that is a pitty...

[Edited 2005-09-29 01:40:18]
What time is top of descent?
 
LO231
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:58 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 7):
Avro RJ85's and 100's, Boeing 737 -400's and -500's, and Airbus A330's.

Also BAe 146, but where do you get your 737-500's from??????

SABENA had them, but not SNBA or TV have...

Regards,
LO231
Got both LO 788 frames already, next LO E95 and 734 BRU-WAW-BRU
 
EddieDude
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:28 pm

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 32):
they probably are not looking to replace the A330's before 2008.

Is'nt that the time the B787 comes available?
I mean, this aircraft will be perfect for SN's needs.

The only thing is that, if SN chooses to replace its widebody planes with 787's, it will not get delivery slots any time soon, so it might as well consider the A350.
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SNBA
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:55 pm

Will the 737s wear the SN Brussels Airlines livery?
 
sterne82
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:21 pm

Hey guys, I don't know why you're building such plans... SNBA is not getting rid of something (for now). It's just a change between lessors. As simple as that.

So no need to draw plans and build smokey theories.  Wink
 
Sabena 690
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:46 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 29):
Quoting FlySSC (Reply 25):
The fifth aircraft, though painted into Air Inter colors has never been delivered to the airline).

Anybody knows the msn of this a/c ? I've seen a (rare) picture of it with the F-WW?? registartion, already in full Air Inter livery, was supposed to be F-GMDE.

MSN086, now flying for EI as EI-JFK.

Regards
Frederic
 
SWISSER
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:07 am

Quoting Sterne82 (Reply 36):
Hey guys, I don't know why you're building such plans... SNBA is not getting rid of something (for now). It's just a change between lessors. As simple as that.

So no need to draw plans and build smokey theories.

Off course not!
where just "assuming" some possibilities, but like EddieDude said, the slots for delivery don't match, so away "own theory!"

Quoting SNBA (Reply 35):
Will the 737s wear the SN Brussels Airlines livery?

If no one reply's, I think no one here knows...
What time is top of descent?
 
SNBA
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RE: SN Brussels A319 Aircraft Are For Sale!

Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:07 pm

Indeed.... I am sorry.... all apologizes!

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