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PanAm_DC10
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Air France Order 3 More A318s

Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:39 pm

From their website, AF have converted 3 of their 10 oustanding Options on A318s into firm orders. Source;

Press Office
45, rue de Paris 95747 Roissy CDG Cedex France
Tél + 33 (0)1 41 56 56 00 - Fax + 33 (0)1 41 56 84 19
site corporate : http ://www.airfrance.com/corporate

N° 4 958
AIR FRANCE EXERCISES OPTIONS ON 3 AIRBUS A318s
______________________________________________________
Fully satisfied with the Airbus A318s it operates that are now an integral part
of the Airbus A320 family of aircraft, Air France has decided to exercise three
of the ten purchase options it has on the A318, the smallest in the A320 family.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:48 pm

Giving them a fleet now of, what, 18?
 
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:52 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 1):
Giving them a fleet now of, what, 18?

That's right. Including today's 3 that will be 18. 9 delivered and 9 remaining to be delivered between now and Spring 2007. With 7 remaining options.

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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:00 pm

... and more options will certainly be converted into firm orders soon.

Despite what some people say about the A318 on A.Net, the babybus proved to be an excellent replacement for the B735.

Only 13 B735 are still in service with AF and they will all be phased out by the end of 2006/Early 2007.

The A318 is more adapted to all the AF's medium haul network, particularly the longest routes like CDG-SVO or CDG-ATH that can be operated without restrictions which was not the case with the B735.

The commonalty with the rest of the A320 family is also the source of important saving costs in terms of maintenance, spares, crew qualifications, etc ...

AF is the only airline in the world to operate all the variants of the A320's family. They will soon provide all the AF's needs in terms of capacity for all the short/Medium haul network :
from 123 seats with the A318 to 206 seats (Domestic config.) on the A321.


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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:19 pm

With LAN's recent order, it seems that there is still life in a programme that has often been questioned. Should we assume a modest but steady trickle of orders for the A318?
 
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:21 pm

I know Kingfisher is also looking for smaller a/c - are they considering the A318? That would be rather nice!
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:22 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
From their website, AF have converted 3 of their 10 oustanding Options on A318s into firm orders. Source;

This is great news for the A318 program. This follow on order proves that the A318 still has some life in it.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 3):
Despite what some people say about the A318 on A.Net, the babybus proved to be an excellent replacement for the B735.

It seems to me that all A318 operators only have praise towards the BabyBus.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 3):
AF is the only airline in the world to operate all the variants of the A320's family.

Iberia will soon be the second to operate all of the A320 family members.

Regards,
Wings
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:40 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 4):
Should we assume a modest but steady trickle of orders for the A318?

Yes and 2005 has been a good year for the A318 with LAN, IB & Air Cairo being 3 new operators to order the model. IB, LAN & AF have all committed to a good amount and will most likely add to their existing commitments. IIRC the A318 has now outsold the 736.

Of interest to me is what demand remains out there which will enable PW to land more orders for the PW6000 to power the bird?

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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:44 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 6):
Iberia will soon be the second to operate all of the A320 family members.

Well, almost.  Wink
In additional to the four different standard types A318, A319, A320 and A321 AF also operates all subtypes with A320-100 and A321-100.


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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:44 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 7):
Of interest to me is what demand remains out there which will enable PW to land more orders for the PW6000 to power the bird?

They must be hoping they haven't missed the boat! They ran away with the early A318 orders (before Air France created a fuss the A318 was meant to be available only with the PW6000) but we all know how badly things worked out for them.

I'm no engineer but the PW6000 is probably the better engine on the A318. The question is - as you suggest - how many more new customers are there out there who will buy the A318 and choose PW. BA have made that choice once. Might they do so again? And LH?
 
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:56 pm

The data concerning orders for the A318 is a little misleading. I did a quick search and came up with the following.

FIRM ORDER,

Air France 15 (+3) (9 delivered)
America West Airlines (US) 15 (still apears on the Airbus order list)
Frontier 5 (5 delivered + 2 leased)
Gecas 12 (10 delivered)
Iberia 10
ILFC 10
TAROM 4
Mexicana (all 8 leased)

PENDING ORDERS,

LanChile ?
Aircairo 6

FUTURE ORDERS (my guess)

Tam
Tap Portugal
PGA Portugalia
Alital
Lufhthansa
Kingfisher
AirCanada
British Airways
Northwest Airlines
Aegan Airlines
Air Newzealand


Regards,
Wings
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:11 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 10):
LanChile ?

LAN have 15 Pending A318 orders Wings

I'm not sure AWA/US will take their 15. IIRC they can convert to another model. Excluding them that would put A318 orders at 80 and 736 orders at 78

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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:20 pm

I like the baby bus but I never quite understood why its success was somehow limited. Any insights?
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:30 pm

My information was that AmWest would not be taking ANY A318 aircraft- they converted all to 319s. This happened long ago, about the time that the engine (PW6000) became unavailable, IIRC.

It has been said that Airbus is slow to remove aircraft orders from that webpage. I have no authority to make such a statement.
 
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:36 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 13):
It has been said that Airbus is slow to remove aircraft orders from that webpage. I have no authority to make such a statement.

Thank you AA737-823 that was well said. You will note that I didn't include their 15 in my tabulation in reply #11 for that exact reason. The last press release I saw on this was almost a year ago so, I too, am not sure of the status of those 15 orders. Any clarification would be appreciated.

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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:24 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 11):
LAN have 15 Pending A318 orders Wings

Thanks PanAm, I was not able to find a link as to the break down of their last order.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 13):
My information was that AmWest would not be taking ANY A318 aircraft- they converted all to 319s.

I also heard the same thing, although I believe that they may have converted some other previous option into firm order and decided to leave the A318 order stand until they could make sure it would live up to its expectations.
They may be waiting to see how the PW6000 turn out?

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 13):
It has been said that Airbus is slow to remove aircraft orders from that webpage. I have no authority to make such a statement.

If thats the case than they are very slow. Maybe they know something that we dont know.

Regards,
Wings
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:00 pm

Considering that the A318 is a very new product, has it been updated since 2002?

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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:18 pm

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 12):
I like the baby bus but I never quite understood why its success was somehow limited. Any insights?

I believe it makes sense to order it for airlines already operating the rest of the A320 family models. It then makes sense economically speaking (spares, CCQ, dynamic capacity management....).

For the other airlines, the need for this A/C is probably less obvious.

E.
 
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:36 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 10):
FUTURE ORDERS (my guess)

Tam
Tap Portugal
PGA Portugalia
Alital
Lufhthansa
Kingfisher
AirCanada
British Airways
Northwest Airlines
Aegan Airlines
Air Newzealand

Don't think AC will, as much as I'd like to see the A318 in ACs fleet. They seem to be going the RJ route, with new Embraers these days.
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:47 am

Does anyone have any figures on how much more efficient the PW6000 is on the A318 vs. the CFM. If I'm not mistaken, I think I read somewhere on these fourms that the A318 with CFM is a much heavier model, mainly due to the weight of the CFM engine itself. How much lighter is the PW version of the A318, and how much less fuel will it supposedly burn with the PW's vs. the CFM's. Wasnt the PW6000 supposed to be what makes the A318 a success?

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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Thu Sep 29, 2005 1:38 am

Good for the A318 and good for Air France!

I think future A318 operators will be present A320 operators as well. It would be difficult to gain a new client for the A320 family with the 318. The pression of regional jets is very big, and the ERJ's are selling very well.

Let's wait and see who makes the next A318 order.

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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Thu Sep 29, 2005 1:49 am

Airbus' latest order spreadsheet (31st Aug) shows the following for A318:

Orders - 71 (delivered 24)

Air France - 15 (9)
America West - 15
Frontier - 5 (5)
GECAS* - 12 (10)
Iberia - 10
ILFC - 10
Tarom - 4

* 8 delivered to Aeromexico, 2 to Frontier.
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:30 am

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 12):
I like the baby bus but I never quite understood why its success was somehow limited. Any insights?

I'm sure someone will provide more details but I think the main problem is that it's too heavy and even though it has less seats it doesn't really provide much in terms of operating savings compared to the A319. That makes them too costly for airlines that don't already have Airbus narrowbody in their fleet.
 
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:35 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 22):
That makes them too costly for airlines that don't already have Airbus narrowbody in their fleet.

It seems that this does not seem to be the case for AirCairo and TAROM if am not mistaken.

Regards,
Wings
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:09 am

Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 19):
Does anyone have any figures on how much more efficient the PW6000 is on the A318 vs. the CFM. If I'm not mistaken, I think I read somewhere on these fourms that the A318 with CFM is a much heavier model, mainly due to the weight of the CFM engine itself. How much lighter is the PW version of the A318, and how much less fuel will it supposedly burn with the PW's vs. the CFM's. Wasnt the PW6000 supposed to be what makes the A318 a success?

PW had major problems with fuel burn on the 6000. The initial BA order for the 318 was converted due to the test engines not performing to guarantee.

As it was offered as the alternative to a heavier and larger IAE V2500 that also created problems at Airbus. Airlines with V2500 powered A320 family aircraft would be les inclined to add the CFM powered A318 to the mix. There are certain factors which would have made the PW6000 and V2500 the natural pairing as Pratt and Whitney would be the common factor.
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:13 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 10):
The data concerning orders for the A318 is a little misleading.

I believe that MX still needs to receive 2 more A318's because the plan was to replace the 10 F100's transferred to Click on a 1:1 basis.
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:52 am

Are any of the A318s ordered so far going to have PW6000 engines?
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Thu Sep 29, 2005 7:10 am

Great news! I would much prefer an A318 over a cramped ER4 any day!

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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Thu Sep 29, 2005 7:27 am

Quoting Amy (Reply 26):
Are any of the A318s ordered so far going to have PW6000 engines?

I've heard that the A318's that Lan ordered are PW6000 powered models. Can anyone confirm?

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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:47 am

Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 28):
I've heard that the A318's that Lan ordered are PW6000 powered models. Can anyone confirm?

Yup:

http://www.pratt-whitney.com/pr_081705.asp
 
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:17 pm

* 8 delivered to Aeromexico, 2 to Frontier.

Unless I'm really mistaken, Aeromexico doesn't operate any Airbii. The A318s from GECAS were delivered to Mexicana.
 
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:29 pm

NZ will most certainly NOT order the A318.

It fits nowhere in the shorthaul fleet, which has gone low cost since 2002. A small, heavy plane that performs little better than the A319 and with no IAE choice is just not going to fit with the low cost startegy.

Expect A319s with NZ eventually though.
 
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:36 pm

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 31):
A small, heavy plane that performs little better than the A319 and with no IAE choice is just not going to fit with the low cost startegy.

Oh. Interesting. It works for Frontier's low cost strategy.

Not that I expect Air New Zealand to order any, but for different reasons.

cheers

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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:53 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 3):
Despite what some people say about the A318 on A.Net, the babybus proved to be an excellent replacement for the B735.

You are mischaracterizing much of the critique of the A318.

The critique has always been that the 736/318 didn't make a lot of sense compared to the 717, CRJ900, E190/5 as the squattest of the airframes is the least economical.

But if you a replacing an older 735 with a 15 year newer jet in the A318 (or the 736 for that matter) that has longer range and is more efficient AND you operate the 319, 320, and 321, it is a great choice. But the truth is, for economic reasons, most 735 operators have plus sized to the 73G and 319, or plus sized AND downsized with a mixed 73G/319 and RJ order.

Just like the 736, the A318s market is still limited. For such a massive market like the A320/737NG, the small number of orders for the A318 and the 736 do show that it is not the best choice for MOST carriers.

Orders: ordered(delivered)
318 = 71(24) compared to 319 = 1086(743), 320 = 2034(1420) (though this includes a long history of original 320s spanning the late 733/734/735 years)
736 = 78(57) compared to 73G = 1047(673), 738 = 1516(901)

Heck, B delivered nearly as many 717s as there are orders for the 318 and 736 combined (144), and that was the red-headed stepchild of the group that B only halfheartedly fed stale bread and old milk! And it hasn't been for sale for a while now, and they help squash outstanding orders that would have been filled...

Hopefully those numbers alone show why some of us are less enthused about the real economics and potential of the A318, cute as it might be. Don't confuse personal preference or affinity for actual value and practicality.
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WINGS
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:54 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 33):
Hopefully those numbers alone show why some of us are less enthused about the real economics and potential of the A318, cute as it might be. Don't confuse personal preference or affinity for actual value and practicality.

How long has the A318 been flying vs the B737-600 and B717?

I believe that both B737-600 and B717 have been flying for longer period of time. But it seems that as soon as Airbus was able to get the Babybus flying, she has managed to gather in some very important orders especially in 2005.

As for the B717 it has its days numbered. So the only direct competitor the A318 has are the B737-600 and RJ. For that matter we will see a slow but steady order list for the A318.

Regards,
Wings
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FlySSC
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:16 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 34):
How long has the A318 been flying vs the B737-600 and B717?

A318 :
First test flight = January 15th 2002
First Commercial flight : July 2003, with Frontier (N801FR)

B717 :
First commercial flight with Air Tran in in September 1999

B736 :
First test flight = January 22, 1998
First commercial flight : September 1998 with SAS
 
fraport
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:23 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 10):
FUTURE ORDERS (my guess)

Tam
Tap Portugal
PGA Portugalia
Alital
Lufhthansa
Kingfisher
AirCanada
British Airways
Northwest Airlines
Aegan Airlines
Air Newzealand

Forget about LH. That won't happen. I guess there won't be an order for any A320-family aircraft at all. They are interested in the Bombarider C-Series (latest rumours say the Russian Regional Jet may be of interest too) and far down the road they will order the 737 and/or A320 successor.
 
WINGS
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:37 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 35):

A318 :
First test flight = January 15th 2002
First Commercial flight : July 2003, with Frontier (N801FR)

B717 :
First commercial flight with Air Tran in in September 1999

B736 :
First test flight = January 22, 1998
First commercial flight : September 1998 with SAS

Thanks FlySSC for that data, It proves my theory that the B737-600 and B717 have been in comercial service for more 5 years in relation to the A318.
In conclusion it seems that even with the PW engine issues regarding the A318 they have managed to gather some very important orders to its order book.

Regards,
Wings
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Thu Sep 29, 2005 7:49 pm

Quoting Flashmeister (Reply 30):
Unless I'm really mistaken, Aeromexico doesn't operate any Airbii. The A318s from GECAS were delivered to Mexicana.

My bad! These Mexican airlines all look the same to me.  wink  duck 
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Alitalia744
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:32 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 10):
FUTURE ORDERS (my guess)

Alital

Guessing that that was supposed to be "Alitalia." They won't be ordering the baby-bus anytime soon. 100 seat sector is planned to be covered by the EMB170 and EMB190. Expect add-on orders to the -170 models soon, and a future order for the -190 model.
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planemanofnz
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RE: Air France Order 3 More A318s

Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:58 am

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 31):

I think the A318 wouldn't be that bad for NZ maybe they could re-open up some new domsetic jet routes with it, Invercargill or Hamilton????? Although I see ANZ moving more towards the A319 for domestic 733 replacements.

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