jetbluefan1
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If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:59 am

If JetBlue made Gary, Indiana a focus city, would it work?

It's my opinion that JetBlue's product would be very much appreciated in the Chicago metro area. If they go into Gary, a virtually untouched airport, JetBlue wouldn't have to compete directly with UA, AA, or even worse: WN. This would basically allow them some breathing space as far as fares, frequencies and routes go.

I'm not at all "in the know" about the Chicago area. What type of market is there in Gary? How far is it from ORD and MDW? For how many people would it be the most convenient airport?

Please keep in mind that I do not mean that JetBlue should tap into the Chicago market right now. They have plenty on their hands with BOS, JFK, and now IAD (see: FlyI's massive decrease in seats).

Let me know your thoughts.

JetBluefan1
 
luv2fly
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:01 am

First of all finding people willing to drive to GYY in order to fly out of there. Let me ask you have you ever been or driven past Gary on your way to Chicago?
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
irelayer
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:10 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Thread starter):
It's my opinion that JetBlue's product would be very much appreciated in the Chicago metro area. If they go into Gary, a virtually untouched airport, JetBlue wouldn't have to compete directly with UA, AA, or even worse: WN. This would basically allow them some breathing space as far as fares, frequencies and routes go.

It is untouched for a reason. The airport sucks, not to mention that the city of Gary is known as the dirty armpit of Chicagoland. The ONLY way to make the Chicago market work for JetBlue is to make ORD a focus city. But then again they will get killed by AA or UA or both. That or setup shop at MKE a-la Midwest.

-IR
 
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ERJ170
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:11 am

How far is Rockford? Is it a viable alternative?
Aiming High and going far..
 
irelayer
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:13 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 3):
How far is Rockford? Is it a viable alternative?

Rockford = 1-1.5 hours drive time from ORD (roughly). Would only be a viable alternative if the fares were cheap and the Western suburbs expanded somewhat :P

-IR

[Edited 2005-09-28 21:14:07]
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:16 am

Is Gary really as bad as everyone says it is? I heard that the airport is on the west side and therefore closer to Chicago (comparatively speaking).

JetBluefan1
 
Tornado82
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:17 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 1):
Let me ask you have you ever been or driven past Gary on your way to Chicago?

I lived in Valparaiso for 3 years. I think anyone who's taken the Skyway before knows the GYY area.

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Thread starter):
If JetBlue made Gary, Indiana a focus city, would it work?

Doubtful. They'd most likely need to build their own terminal, and to be honest I don't know what kind of land there is at GYY for parking/terminal on that grand of a scale. Would me more of an obstacle than for WN @ BFI in terms of lack of infrastructure for THAT kind of operation (Note to WN people: Please do not turn this into a pro/con of BFI... I'm just making an analogy here... this thread is about B6).

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Thread starter):
a virtually untouched airport,

Hooters would argue with you on that.  Wink But it's untouched because it's too small of a facility for a major hubbing/focus operation.

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Thread starter):
WN

MDW isn't THAT far away.

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Thread starter):
For how many people would it be the most convenient airport?

Lake and Porter County, IN. While they are two of the richest and quicker growing counties in Indiana, combined population is about 650,000. A tiny bit of the Illinois section around Lansing and whatnot too would be closer to GYY than MDW, but not more than about 50,000 people I would think. Likewise the eastern half of Porter County including for that matter Valparaiso could just almost as quickly (and MUCH less traffic) get to SBN.

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Thread starter):
I'm not at all "in the know" about the Chicago area. What type of market is there in Gary? How far is it from ORD and MDW?

Gary itself is a rough town. No offense to anyone, but there's no denying that it's a rough town with high crime, high poverty, etc. Surrounding areas in Lake County and then into Porter County are pretty much middle to upper class (in a few instances) bedroom communities, and Merrillville, IN is a retail hub with malls and whatnot, as to a lesser extent Valparaiso is, which also has a university which is home to around 3700 students from all across the county (and world for that matter) as opposed to the few schools in Lake County which are primarily satellite campuses, like IU-Northwest or whatever that is called. Valpo definitely isn't enough to fill airplanes though. Many Chicagoans, especially the north side suburbs, which is where more of the "money" lives would have a LONG commute to GYY... and also view Indiana as some 3rd world country that is only useful for farms and Indiana Dunes National Park.
 
UAL Bagsmasher
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:18 am

Gary was once, and may still be, "Murder Capital of the USA."
 
jacobin777
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:18 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 3):
How far is Rockford? Is it a viable alternative?

too far from Downtown Chicago...MDW would be their best bet, as there too much of a competition with WN...

B6 can easily serve JFK/LGA-MDW.....

ORD would be a toughie.but its possible....
"Up the Irons!"
 
Tornado82
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:19 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 5):
Is Gary really as bad as everyone says it is?



Quoting IRelayer (Reply 2):
not to mention that the city of Gary is known as the dirty armpit of Chicagoland

IRelayer that comment is a bit disgusting, and could almost be construed as bigotted, but no JetBluefan1, Gary is not as bad as people like IRelayer make it out to be.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 3):
How far is Rockford? Is it a viable alternative?

Too far west... would be as bad as considering SBN a viable alternative.
 
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N328KF
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:20 am

If someone made a major airport in the Joliet area, it'd be close enough to draw a lot of customers from the Western and Southern suburbs. Actually, GYY is close enough to Chicago that if transportation were better, it might draw some traffic. The problem is that there is no El line to GYY from Chicago, and the Metra line (which is a good system) is still 1.5 miles away.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
irelayer
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:21 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 5):
Is Gary really as bad as everyone says it is? I heard that the airport is on the west side and therefore closer to Chicago (comparatively speaking).

JetBluefan1

Its not the distance really, that is the disadvantage. It is the fact that it is in Gary. Not a lot of people are willing to drive out there to catch a flight. Whereas MDW and ORD are pretty well situated (close to where people live) Gary, for anyone in Chicagoland who doesn't live on the far far south side, would be very inconvinient.

-IR
 
Tornado82
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:21 am

Quoting UAL Bagsmasher (Reply 7):
Gary was once, and may still be, "Murder Capital of the USA."

You wouldn't go through the "bad part" to get to the airport. And it's no longer the most dangerous city in the US. Besides, a city like that, as long as you aren't dealing drugs or in gangs you're pretty safe. I made dozens of trips to "the boats" and never felt unsafe.
 
irelayer
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:29 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 9):
IRelayer that comment is a bit disgusting, and could almost be construed as bigotted, but no JetBluefan1, Gary is not as bad as people like IRelayer make it out to be.

How is that bigotted? Trust me when I say that you are reading way too much into my statement. You don't have to play the race card just because you think every statement that people make automatically has racial connotations. You lose a lot of credibility that way. For the record, I was not implying anything. I was simply stating that much of Chicagoland perceives Gary to be a not-so-desirable area. Is that not true?

-IR
 
GoAllegheny
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:32 am

Whatever the problems in Gary (and they exist in some metro Chicago towns as well), they would not affect the airport. It is on the outskirts of town, hard by the highway and near the mills.

Perhaps a stronger issue is simply demographics. I am not sure that the % of people within 1 hour of Gary who fly is as high as that within 1 hour of MDW or ORD. Low fares certainly would help. But Gary is the demographic opposite of Westchester County airport, or White Plains, or whatever it is called. There you have a fair number of wealthy folks and corporate types who support frequent RJ flights to points west.

My sense is that the airport may grow slowly, but there has to be a reason. People will drive hours to save a couple hundred on fares, but with MDW so close there is no need to go to Gary. Perhaps the growth in Lake County and nearby will support the airport, but most people from those areas still fly MDW or ORD because of the much broader choice of destinations.

And, as others have said, it is a small airport, constrained by space, and it would be very hard to add longer additional runways.

Having said all of that, it would be interesting to see if JetBlue could support flights to NY and Florida out of Gary.
 
ord
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting IRelayer (Reply 2):
It is untouched for a reason. The airport sucks, not to mention that the city of Gary is known as the dirty armpit of Chicagoland.

The airport itself does not suck. The current terminal is new and very clean and nice. The future development calls for an even nicer 60-gate terminal (if it's needed). All of Boeing's corporate fleet is based at Gary due to the fact there is no congestion and the airport is a breeze to get to from downtown Chicago (where Boeing is headquartered).

As for Gary being dirty, I don't think that means anything. There are lots of casinos in the area and nobody seems to be afraid of going there. Also, the same was once said of the area where Midway airport is, or where Newark airport is or Oakland. That didn't stop the development of those airports.

I doubt JetBlue will go to Gary, but you never know. Who thought they would have built up Long Beach? Time will tell.

Gary is only 12 miles from Midway and 17 miles from O'Hare. There are about 2.5 million people in the Chicago area closer to Gary than Midway, and over 3 million closer than O'Hare. Plus, Gary has room to expand, with more land than Midway.
 
Tornado82
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:45 am

Quoting IRelayer (Reply 13):
How is that bigotted? Trust me when I say that you are reading way too much into my statement. You don't have to play the race card just because you think every statement that people make automatically has racial connotations. You lose a lot of credibility that way.

Bigot doesn't necessarily play the race card, and I wasn't playing it. It can also play the looking down at people less fortunate than you or that they live in a "dirty" town. Speaking of credibility, a post that says "armpit of Chicago" isn't a way to gain any either. It's not that bad of a place, and no worse than some of the neighborhoods only a block or two off of Cicero heading to/from MDW, or around Comiskey/Cellular One Field.

Quoting GoAllegheny (Reply 14):
Whatever the problems in Gary (and they exist in some metro Chicago towns as well), they would not affect the airport. It is on the outskirts of town, hard by the highway and near the mills.

Exactly.

Quoting ORD (Reply 15):
The future development calls for an even nicer 60-gate terminal (if it's needed).

Do they have room for that, and parking, in that plot of land? Or will it be another MDW type of setup at that point, hardly even room to breathe?
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:50 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 16):
Speaking of credibility, a post that says "armpit of Chicago"

Oh but it is absolutely true. You're getting on the guy for stating a majority public opinion? Gary has an extremely negative connotation to go along with it, and no doubt that would effect whether or not someone would go and fly out of there. It's the 'armpit of Chicago'. Sorry, but it is, theres no denying it.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
vivavegas
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:52 am

Quoting GoAllegheny (Reply 14):
Perhaps a stronger issue is simply demographics. I am not sure that the % of people within 1 hour of Gary who fly is as high as that within 1 hour of MDW or ORD

You nailed it, a fact of simple demographics. The north suburbs of Chicago is much more desirable than the south suburbs, and relying on traffic from suburban Porter and Lake counties just does not justify the service.

Nothing racist or biggoted about that, just the facts.

I honestly think a small presence at ORD is the most likely senario. One gate and no more than 6-8 flights per day just to get a foot-hold and see how things shakeout with UA and AA.

Rockford, while they make every attempt to be Chicago's third airport is just too far away from the population (perhaps in 10 years, as the population keep creeping out that NW Tollway).

MKE, again too far, too much competition at this time, limited gate area (perhaps the rumors of "C" might come true some day).

My $.02

Craig
MKE
SXM soon.....
MKE / EYW / LAS - The true trifecta of aviation!
 
irelayer
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:57 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 16):
Bigot doesn't necessarily play the race card, and I wasn't playing it. It can also play the looking down at people less fortunate than you or that they live in a "dirty" town. Speaking of credibility, a post that says "armpit of Chicago" isn't a way to gain any either. It's not that bad of a place, and no worse than some of the neighborhoods only a block or two off of Cicero heading to/from MDW, or around Comiskey/Cellular One Field.

For the record:

bigot
n.

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Respectfully, I don't see how you could interpret my original statement as being any of those things. Bigot is a strong word. Use it with care.

-IR

[Edited 2005-09-28 21:58:05]

[Edited 2005-09-28 21:58:30]
 
airportplan
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:02 am

GYY is a small but very nice airport. It only has three gates but is only 35 minutes from downtown Chicago. The airport is far away from the "dangerous" parts of the city. A million or so people per year have no problem visiting the casinos that are less than a mile away from the airport. One nearby casino is owned by Donald Trump who uses GYY when he visits his casino. Boeing bases it's corporate fleet in a new hangar at the airport. Boeing would not base 100 Million Dollars worth of aircraft (BBJ, G5, S76) at a dangerous dumpy airport. Will jetBlue begin operations at GYY. Probably not. So far they have refused to go into MDW. They want ORD but there are no gates available at ORD.

Check out the Gary Airport Website http://www.garychicagoairport.com
 
roseflyer
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:03 am

If an airline wanted to start a big operation out of Rockford, then the city would certainly build a new terminal. They did that for UPS and have created a big cargo hub. Rockford's airport authority currently pays people to use the airport (up to $100 for connecting flights via DTW on NW). The airport has plenty of space, and if an airline like jetBlue wanted a 60 gate terminal, then they would most likely get it for free. This is one desperate city. But of course that won't happen.

As for main question, I will sum it up with one sentence:
If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City, then JetBlue Would Lose A Lot Of Money.

Chicago might be a big aviation market, but it is extremely well served with the UA megahub and strong hubs by both WN and AA as well as being influenced by the Midwest hub and ATA presence. This city is well covered as far as aviation goes. jetBlue thrives of leisure routes, especially to Florida and there is a lot of competition in the Chicago area for that service. WN has much of the market covered, and the network carriers along with smaller carriers like Spirit or charters have many flights to Florida. JetBlue could certainly sell seats and keep planes full with their great product, but they probably couldn't profit out of the Chicago market as well as they can out of the Northeast where there is less leisure competition out of BOS, JFK, LGA or upstate New York.

[Edited 2005-09-28 22:17:33]
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
Tornado82
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:04 am

Quoting Vivavegas (Reply 18):
You nailed it, a fact of simple demographics. The north suburbs of Chicago is much more desirable than the south suburbs, and relying on traffic from suburban Porter and Lake counties just does not justify the service.

You summed up my whole original post right there. The money is up north, southside Chicago is not as much of a high-travel demographic, and Lake/Porter can't suffice to maintain a focus city without significant help.

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 17):
Oh but it is absolutely true. You're getting on the guy for stating a majority public opinion? Gary has an extremely negative connotation to go along with it, and no doubt that would effect whether or not someone would go and fly out of there. It's the 'armpit of Chicago'. Sorry, but it is, theres no denying it.

But once again, the airport would have better highway access than MDW... therefore exposing passengers to less of the "bad neighborbood" than MDW does. As far as the scenery out the windows of the car, driving to GYY would be nearly the same as driving to ORD. Interstates and more interstates until the Airport exit and parking lots. Half of the negative connotation of GYY could be changed by naming it "Northwest Indiana Regional Airport" or "Lake County airport" or something just to get Gary out of the name for the Chicagoans who think they're too high and mighty to venture into Gary. The fact of the matter is quite simply this:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 6):
Many Chicagoans, especially the north side suburbs, which is where more of the "money" lives would have a LONG commute to GYY... and also view Indiana as some 3rd world country that is only useful for farms and Indiana Dunes National Park

I'd be all for building up GYY... but I don't think it's the kind of airport for a B6 Focus City. It would be better suited to things like Ted, Song, Frontier, and other airlines taking people to leisure destinations (maybe even WN too), with MDW being more suited for people in Chicago who need to get on a plane quickly and get to a business center like LGA... an operation that B6 would run.
 
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N328KF
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:06 am

Quoting Vivavegas (Reply 18):
You nailed it, a fact of simple demographics. The north suburbs of Chicago is much more desirable than the south suburbs, and relying on traffic from suburban Porter and Lake counties just does not justify the service.

You are forgetting that the affluent area stretches from northern Cook County/southern Lake County at Lake Michigan counterclockwise in a belt going around the outside edge of O'Hare, towards Schaumburg, and then south and ending at I-55, which includes Naperville/Glen Ellyn/Downers Grove/Clarendon Hills/etc. That's a lot of territory, and some of it could benefit from an additional airport.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
Tornado82
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:14 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 21):
Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 6):
Hooters would argue with you on that. But it's (Rockford) untouched because it's too small of a facility for a major hubbing/focus operation.

If an airline wanted to start a big operation out of Rockford, then the city would certainly build a new terminal. They did that for UPS and have created a big cargo hub.

I wasn't talking about Rockford. Respectfully, don't add your own edits and post it as a direct quote from me.

Quoting IRelayer (Reply 19):
One who is strongly partial to one's own group,

Middle class VS Lower class... those are groups. Your definition works for how I used it. However if you read my post, I did say that it "could almost be construed as," did I say I was construing it that way?? I was actually referring to those who DO think racially automatically... and giving you a warning about blanket statements such as that. I do know if I lived in GYY and read your statement, I'd call you even more than a bigot for that comment. Personally I think Chicago in general is an undesirable place to live, but I wouldn't call it "The armpit of America," and if I did have to live in Chicagoland I'd rather live in Northwest Indiana (therefore closer proximity to GYY than either MDW or ORD) than anywhere in Illinois.


I don't know why everyone is so wound up about GYY, just reopen CGX!!  stirthepot  (KIDDING by the way!)
 
Tornado82
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:15 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 23):
That's a lot of territory, and some of it could benefit from an additional airport.

DPA fits that billing.
 
loisencroach
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:20 am

Jet Blue has surveyed Rockford. That's all I know.
 
roseflyer
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:34 am

Sorry Tornado, I accidentally misquoted you, but edited it out.

Quoting Loisencroach (Reply 26):
Jet Blue has surveyed Rockford. That's all I know

There were a number of articles in local newspapers about that. None of them were very definitive other than saying pretty much that the city would throw a lot of money to jetBlue for them to start service. I think Rockford is more likely than Gary to attract new service, but still nothing major will happen. Even though it is huge, ORD really isn't that difficult of an airport. Parking is pricey, but not that bad and it is convenient to fly out of (although it has delays sometimes, but so does every other airport in the area during winter). jetBlue might be able to do well in the Chicago market, but probably not as well as in the New York market.

Another thing I find interesting is how Hooters Air does well in both Rockford and Gary. They serve a number of destinations from each airport and are expanding. So if you live on the north/west of Chicago you can use Rockford, or if you live south/east of Chicago you can use Gary. It is interesting how Hooters Air has split the Chicago market up. It has worked for them, but I don't know if it would work for a scheduled carrier like jetBlue.

[Edited 2005-09-28 22:52:16]

[Edited 2005-09-28 22:53:15]
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
tatfsn
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:37 am

Quoting IRelayer (Reply 2):
It is untouched for a reason. The airport sucks, not to mention that the city of Gary is known as the dirty armpit of Chicagoland. The ONLY way to make the Chicago market work for JetBlue is to make ORD a focus city. But then again they will get killed by AA or UA or both. That or setup shop at MKE a-la Midwest.

You don't know what you're talking about. And what exactly is that supposed to mean? I have personally had dealings with the airport for some years, and have visited it numerous times.

Hooter's Air apparently doesn't share your point of view, and neither do the people who regularly fill its B757s on their Vegas runs from GYY (to the tune of 70% to 90% load factors) consistently. And how about Hooter's decision to make Gary a focus airport? They've recently announced service to St. Petersburg and have plans to add more service in the future.

Also, the airport, as noted by someone else, is some miles removed from the city itself.

There is a long term plan to not only expand the terminal, but to lengthen the air carrier runway (from 7000' to over 8000'). The feds and the state have committed several million in additional funding for the development of the airport as well.

Add to that the funding that the City of Chicago provides the airport under a ten-year old bi-state agreement. Obvioiusly they do not consider the City of Gary an "armpit." Indeed, they actively tout and promote Gary/Chicago Airport as the de-facto "third Chicago airport."

Quoting AirportPlan (Reply 20):
GYY is a small but very nice airport. It only has three gates but is only 35 minutes from downtown Chicago

Amen. I can personally attest to that, having made the drive myself numerous times. In terms of commute time, Gary/Chicago is more than competitive with Midway, and definitely O'Hare, during peak times.
 
bravogolf
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:42 am

I think that with age, IRelayer will learn to put his brain in gear before his mouth.

1 GYY is at 740 acres. There is room to expand to 1800+acres.

2 GYY is a full part 139 class 1 airport. IRelayer, you can look that up on the FAA site if you don't know what that means.

3 GYY is 35 minutes via the Skyway to the loop in the daytime.

4 GYY has started the process (engineering) to extend the main runway, 12/30, from 7000 feet to 8900 feet. This is planned to be compleated in the next 2 to 3 years depending on funding.

5 GYY's catchment area has 1.5 million people in it.

6 The present terminal is undergoing another expansion to the east.

7 As for Illinois people not using GYY, check the plates on the cars in the parking lot.
 
ord
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:44 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 16):
Do they have room for that, and parking, in that plot of land? Or will it be another MDW type of setup at that point, hardly even room to breathe?

Gary has roughly the same amount of land as Newark and almost triple what Midway has.
 
stirling
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:53 am

Quoting UAL Bagsmasher (Reply 7):
Gary was once, and may still be, "Murder Capital of the USA."

As of 2001, Gary, IN was indeed, the Murder Capital of The US. (There might be later data...)
79.4 murders per 100,000 residents.
The national average is 5.6 per 100,000

Ranking of Murder Rate by City

The top 10:

1. Gary, IN
2. Compton, CA
3. New Orleans, LA
4. St Louis, MO
5. Youngstown, OH
6. Detroit, MI
7. Washington DC
8. Baltimore, MD
9. Richmond, VA
10.Atlanta, GA
Delete this User
 
loisencroach
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:56 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 21):
If an airline wanted to start a big operation out of Rockford, then the city would certainly build a new terminal. They did that for UPS and have created a big cargo hub

I'm going to research that. I think that UPS built their sorting facility themselves, but I'm not positive. I do know that UPS has given lines of credit to the airport in the past, but I can't remember for what reason.
 
tsnamm
Posts: 531
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 3:28 am

RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:01 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 24):
, just reopen CGX!! (KIDDING by the way!)

what is the story with Meigs Field? would they ever consider opening it up to commercial traffic again? I know the mayor tried to destroy it and close it down...I'm not sure what the outcome has been...since its so close to downtown Chicago it would seem to be a desirable place to go to...but I'm hardly an expert in local Chicago community affairs...
 
Tornado82
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:02 am

Quoting ORD (Reply 30):

Gary has roughly the same amount of land as Newark and almost triple what Midway has.

Wow, doesn't seem that big. Thanks!
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9606
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:10 am

Quoting Loisencroach (Reply 32):
I think that UPS built their sorting facility themselves, but I'm not positive.

Yes think that UPS did build that themselves, but the cargo ramp area was built by the airport and I think UPS received its land deeply discounted. The airport spent around $170 million on improvements in order to get cargo service going in the early 90s.

As for the passenger terminal, there are plans and the ability to expand the terminal beyond 5 gates in place should there be demand.

Here is a link with information about RFD's expansion.
http://www.communitylink.com/rockford/location2.htm

[Edited 2005-09-28 23:15:15]
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
vivavegas
Posts: 422
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:12 am

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 33):
what is the story with Meigs Field? would they ever consider opening it up to commercial traffic again?

Unless JBLU is in the paving business... Don't count on it!



Craig
MKE
MKE / EYW / LAS - The true trifecta of aviation!
 
vivavegas
Posts: 422
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:14 am

One additional look:

http://www.photography-plus.com/project/ChicagoNight121704_21.jpg

Sad days indeed....

Craig
MKE
MKE / EYW / LAS - The true trifecta of aviation!
 
Tornado82
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Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:17 am

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 33):
what is the story with Meigs Field? would they ever consider opening it up to commercial traffic again?

I should have never made that joke...

But aside from that, JetBlue doesn't run anything that could ever fit into Meigs' runway (when it still existed).
 
irelayer
Posts: 929
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:56 am

Quoting Bravogolf (Reply 29):
I think that with age, IRelayer will learn to put his brain in gear before his mouth.

1 GYY is at 740 acres. There is room to expand to 1800+acres.

2 GYY is a full part 139 class 1 airport. IRelayer, you can look that up on the FAA site if you don't know what that means.

3 GYY is 35 minutes via the Skyway to the loop in the daytime.

4 GYY has started the process (engineering) to extend the main runway, 12/30, from 7000 feet to 8900 feet. This is planned to be compleated in the next 2 to 3 years depending on funding.

5 GYY's catchment area has 1.5 million people in it.

6 The present terminal is undergoing another expansion to the east.

7 As for Illinois people not using GYY, check the plates on the cars in the parking lot.

Yet another example of how age has little to do with maturity. E.G. I never lower myself to personal attacks like you have done. I address the facts and state my opinions, but I never resort to blantantly insulting people, much less take on the conceited tone that you seem to have no trouble producing. That was pretty much the most condescending thing I've heard all day. For the record, here are all of my posts from this thread, in order:

Quoting IRelayer (Reply 2):
It is untouched for a reason. The airport sucks, not to mention that the city of Gary is known as the dirty armpit of Chicagoland. The ONLY way to make the Chicago market work for JetBlue is to make ORD a focus city. But then again they will get killed by AA or UA or both. That or setup shop at MKE a-la Midwest.



Quoting IRelayer (Reply 4):
Rockford = 1-1.5 hours drive time from ORD (roughly). Would only be a viable alternative if the fares were cheap and the Western suburbs expanded somewhat :P



Quoting IRelayer (Reply 11):
Its not the distance really, that is the disadvantage. It is the fact that it is in Gary. Not a lot of people are willing to drive out there to catch a flight. Whereas MDW and ORD are pretty well situated (close to where people live) Gary, for anyone in Chicagoland who doesn't live on the far far south side, would be very inconvinient.



Quoting IRelayer (Reply 13):
How is that bigotted? Trust me when I say that you are reading way too much into my statement. You don't have to play the race card just because you think every statement that people make automatically has racial connotations. You lose a lot of credibility that way. For the record, I was not implying anything. I was simply stating that much of Chicagoland perceives Gary to be a not-so-desirable area. Is that not true?



Quoting IRelayer (Reply 19):
For the record:

bigot
n.

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Respectfully, I don't see how you could interpret my original statement as being any of those things. Bigot is a strong word. Use it with care.

Note that I never insulted Tornado82 personally, or anyone else for that matter. In my original statement, I merely pointed out the majority opinion of Chicagoans towards Gary. Ask anyone from Chicagoland what they think of Gary, and in the vast majority of responses you will notice that Gary has at least a slightly negative connotation in their minds. My point in making this statement is that, given its non-central location (not relative to downtown, but the whole area of Chicagoland, including the western and northern suburbs, which are either a little less or equally as substantial as downtown in terms of population), its negative perception among Chicagoans, and its current size and operational capacity (not counting "future expansion" as that may or may not happen), JetBlue would probably not move in.

Note also that, of the 7 points you listed in your post, I never spoke directly to any of them as reasons why JetBlue would not want to move there.

For completeness:

1 I never said the airport was small, big, or medium sized. In fact, I never even mentioned its size.

2 I never questioned GYY's status as a full service commerical airport (in fact I never think that even came up in the entire thread)

3 I specifically stated that distance was not the main factor in Gary's undesirability for JetBlue. See reply 11. I also never said it was too far from downtown...I never even said how far it was. When I mentioned drive time, it was in reference to Rockford, not Gary.

4 I never addressed runway size as a factor in undesirability, either.

5 I never mentioned Gary's catchment area at all. In fact, I never even mentioned lack of surrounding population as a factor to the undesirability of Gary for JetBlue. Catchment area is fine and good, but how many of those people in that figure overlap with MDW? Many. Which airport is better connected and offers a more central location? MDW.

6 Again, I never mentioned GYY's terminal size as a factor. However, now that you mention it, as it stands now and all things being equal, I would prefer MDW over GYY hands down b/c it offers better, newer terminal facilities. And all things are not equal. MDW is in a better location.

7 I never said people from Illinois do not use GYY. NEVER. I challenge you to find where I said that. And it is blindingly obvious to anyone who knows the area that the great majority of those who would potentially use the airport would be from Illinois. So naturally there would be Illinois license plates. I don't even know what that was supposed to prove. I never disputed that, either. The question was asked: what do you think of GYY as a JetBlue focus airport, to which I responded with what I thought of GYY as a JetBlue focus airport. Those are, inevitably, opinions and not facts. Additionally, my main reason for GYY's unsuitability for JetBlue was, as I have stated repeatedly, its non-central location relative to Chicagoland and its relatively negative perception among Chicagoans.

Also, to the point made about Hooters Air (another person)...well of course you can fill up ultra-cheap gambling junket flights to LAS. Any airport can do that. I doubt Hooters Air is making a killing on GYY-LAS anyway. What is your point?

Maybe you should take your own advice and think before running your mouth.

-IR
 
Tornado82
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:47 am

Quoting IRelayer (Reply 39):
I doubt Hooters Air is making a killing on GYY-LAS anyway. What is your point?

It's not just GYY. Those flights originate in ABE, and go ABE-GYY-LAS. I think there might be others that go ___-GYY-LAS as well.
 
tatfsn
Posts: 25
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 1:34 pm

Quoting IRelayer (Reply 39):
Also, to the point made about Hooters Air (another person)...well of course you can fill up ultra-cheap gambling junket flights to LAS. Any airport can do that. I doubt Hooters Air is making a killing on GYY-LAS anyway. What is your point?

You're grasping at straws.

That, as you claim, "any airport" can fill up "ultra-cheap gambling junket flights to LAS" means that if "the [Gary] airport sucks," and Gary is an "armpit," then it would seem that no one would use it even under THOSE circumstances, wouldn't it? Will you concede then, that in that respect, GYY is no different than "any" other airport, and therefore does not particularly "suck?"

For the record, again, you don't know what you're talking about. I know personally that Hooters IS very happy with the revenues that they are pulling in on the GYY-LAS run.

You take issue with being personally attacked; while I can certainly understand that, I and some of the other folks in this post take issue with blanket, pejorative statements such as "the airport sucks," that are not backed up by any personal knowledge or credible evidence, but assumptions. So therefore, what is YOUR point?
 
irelayer
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:28 pm

Quoting Tatfsn (Reply 41):
You take issue with being personally attacked; while I can certainly understand that, I and some of the other folks in this post take issue with blanket, pejorative statements such as "the airport sucks," that are not backed up by any personal knowledge or credible evidence, but assumptions. So therefore, what is YOUR point?

I am sorry you feel that way. If you can change my opinion of Gary airport, then do so. Otherwise, I will continue to say what I am saying as it is my opinion and I am allowed to post it freely, just as you are allowed to post your opinions freely. I'm sorry that I insulted your favorite airport, but it really does you no good to tell me that my opinion of it is "wrong" and "I don't know what I'm talking about". Opinions are opinions. When I say "XXX airport sucks" I am stating an opinion, not a fact. What sort of "credible evidence" would you like? Pictures of me at GYY? A comparative essay on the advantages/disadvantages of GYY? I am not assuming anything. I have, in fact, been to Gary airport on three occasions. To me, the airport was:

1) Not very conviniently located
2) Located in an area that I would not want to visit unless I was going gambling.
3) The terminal complex, while newly renovated, left me with an impression of gloominess and was overall an unremarkable structure, inside and outside. It looks like something out of the mid-80's.
4) I didn't like the layout very much.
5) There was not much activity.
6) It had a rundown quality to it that I cannot explain...maybe it was because it was small and out of the way. But that's just how I feel.
7) Didn't trust the free parking

I guarantee you next time someone says SAN, ORD, or MDW sucks, I won't immediately go into attack mode and start insulting the person who said it. I don't know why my opinion bothers you so much. I certainly appreciate that you put so much stock in my opinions.

As for me making assumptions, well you made them too...by assuming that I had absolutely no first hand knowledge of Gary, the area, or GYY at all. Which was incorrect. So don't talk to me about assumptions.

Quoting Tatfsn (Reply 41):
Will you concede then, that in that respect, GYY is no different than "any" other airport, and therefore does not particularly "suck?"

No I will not concede that. Sorry.

As for my point, you can look at my first post because I don't feel like explaining it again.

-IR

[Edited 2005-09-29 08:30:48]
 
tatfsn
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 11:56 am

RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:11 am

Quoting IRelayer (Reply 42):
I guarantee you next time someone says SAN, ORD, or MDW sucks, I won't immediately go into attack mode and start insulting the person who said it. I don't know why my opinion bothers you so much. I certainly appreciate that you put so much stock in my opinions.

As for me making assumptions, well you made them too...by assuming that I had absolutely no first hand knowledge of Gary, the area, or GYY at all. Which was incorrect. So don't talk to me about assumptions.



Quoting IRelayer (Reply 42):
As for my point, you can look at my first post because I don't feel like explaining it again.

I'll make one more try, then I'm done.

I already looked at your first post.

You stated, authoritatively, that "Gary is known as the dirty armpit of Chicagoland," based on your three visits to the Gary/Chicago Airport. That experience of yours apparently means that you know more than the Mayors of Chicago and Gary, many in the Indiana legislature, at least one of its Senators, Evan Bayh (who has incidentally visited the airport himself), etc.
If that's YOUR opinion, fine. But to state that it "is known," as if it is a common and universally accepted fact, is wrong. Sorry--in that respect, you don't know what you're talking about. There's nothing personal about that statement.

You denigrated and dismissed the traffic that Hooters Air has generated at the airport on its Vegas runs, after ruling it out as a Jet Blue focus city. The fact that an airline (admittedly not Jet Blue) does indeed find the airport viable was an inconvenient fact to you, so you simply dismissed it out of hand. So apparently you know more than the people who run Hooters Air as well. Sorry--in that respect as well, you don't know what you're talking about.

The seven points that you made were fine, and were your opinion, which you have a perfect right to. However, were they the best that you could come up with, in making the case in your complete condemnation of the airport, and the City of Gary? There are several airports that can be described in terms almost similar, and even identical, to your descriptions, and which are even worse, but teem with traffic (excepting your point 5--which in the eyes of a lot of travellers, would be a GOOD thing).

If you hate the airport and the City of Gary so much, then that's your right. Don't ever go there again. There are many of people who have, and will continue to do so.

That you have a right to your opinion (which no one disputes) does not mean that you have a right to not be disagreed with--even vigorously. That is the risk one takes when one ventures onto a forum.
 
irelayer
Posts: 929
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:51 pm

Quoting Tatfsn (Reply 43):
You stated, authoritatively, that "Gary is known as the dirty armpit of Chicagoland," based on your three visits to the Gary/Chicago Airport. That experience of yours apparently means that you know more than the Mayors of Chicago and Gary, many in the Indiana legislature, at least one of its Senators, Evan Bayh (who has incidentally visited the airport himself), etc.
If that's YOUR opinion, fine. But to state that it "is known," as if it is a common and universally accepted fact, is wrong. Sorry--in that respect, you don't know what you're talking about. There's nothing personal about that statement.

First of all, when I said that Gary is known as the dirty armpit of Chicagoland I was referring to the city and not the airport. It is well known...I repeat...well known that the majority of Chicagoans view Gary with, shall I say, slight to moderate disdain. Like it or not, the public perception of Gary as a city among Chicagoans is not that great. It is seedy industrial city with high crime rates, pollution, and a generally negative atmosphere. Some parts of it may be great, but the city as a whole still has that stigma attached to it, whether deserved or not. And at least one person on this board agreed with me that this was a perception held by the majority of Chicagoans. I was born and raised in Chicago and I know the good parts and the bad parts and Gary is definately in the latter category. It has a less than generous reputation and you simply can't deny that, no matter what you're individual opinion of the city might be. So there's that.

As to your other points, you might have noticed that I didn't say definatively that I knew what I was talking about. I merely doubted (that is an opinion) that Hooters Air was making above-average margins on that route. If you know what you are talking about then provide me the figures and we'll talk it out. Otherwise, you are just as clueless as I am in this respect.

What I do know is this: GYY sees regular commercial service from two airlines, Hooters Air and Casino Express. The latter has one destination. There may be some charter flights, commuter stuff, seasonal service...the usual. But the point is that if GYY were as attractive an airport as you make it out to be, it would see more service than it does.

Quoting Tatfsn (Reply 43):
The seven points that you made were fine, and were your opinion, which you have a perfect right to. However, were they the best that you could come up with, in making the case in your complete condemnation of the airport, and the City of Gary?

I'm sure I could come up with more. That was just my general impression of the airport and it was what I based my opinion on. My criteria for airport suckage is not that difficult to understand. I just cannot take GYY seriously as a viable alternative to MDW or ORD.

Quoting Tatfsn (Reply 43):
If you hate the airport and the City of Gary so much, then that's your right. Don't ever go there again. .

I don't plan on it.

Quoting Tatfsn (Reply 43):
That you have a right to your opinion (which no one disputes) does not mean that you have a right to not be disagreed with--even vigorously. That is the risk one takes when one ventures onto a forum.

I never said I objected to being disagreed with. I am actually kind of enjoying discussing this with you...although I must admit I think it is a complete waste of time for both of us :P

What I object to is being accused of being an elitist/racist/snob:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 9):
IRelayer that comment is a bit disgusting, and could almost be construed as bigotted

and ad hominem attacks on my maturity and age:

Quoting Bravogolf (Reply 29):
I think that with age, IRelayer will learn to put his brain in gear before his mouth.

Anyway...off to bed.

-IR
 
SLUAviator
Posts: 292
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RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:29 pm

Ever sit on the Skyway for an hour or two in traffic? Or right now, when people getting on the Skyway sit for an hour on the Ryan in the construction zone just to get on the ramp for the Skyway. If Jet Blue goes to GYY, you can forget about people wanting to go there if the Ryan/Skyway are the only real way to get there (Meaning most of the city).
What do I know? I just fly 'em.......
 
bravogolf
Posts: 359
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:18 am

RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:37 pm

Road construction doesn't last forever, it just seems like it. The plus side is, when it is done, travel time from GYY to the Loop will be even faster.
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5810
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:59 pm

Quoting SLUAviator (Reply 45):
Ever sit on the Skyway for an hour or two in traffic? Or right now, when people getting on the Skyway sit for an hour on the Ryan in the construction zone just to get on the ramp for the Skyway. If Jet Blue goes to GYY, you can forget about people wanting to go there if the Ryan/Skyway are the only real way to get there (Meaning most of the city).

If there was/is an effective way to get from the Metra South Shore Line to GYY, this would be mostly alleviated. Chicago-Randolph Street to GYY takes 45 minutes.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:00 am

SLU: You can sit in just as much traffic going to MDW or ORD depending where you are coming from. Traffic is a Chicagoland-as-a-whole issue that just happens to extend all the way to about the I-65 split from the Borman and along the Skyway that way outbound, not just a Gary issue. It once took me over 2 hours along the Tri-state to get from the Cicero Ave exit to I-190/ORD expressway... on a Saturday afternoon. I've also spent over 45 minutes just trying to get from an expressway into MDW because of how MDW is buried along Cicero.
 
FlyBoy84
Posts: 329
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 4:17 am

RE: If JetBlue Made Gary (IN) A Focus City

Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:28 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 5):
Is Gary really as bad as everyone says it is? I heard that the airport is on the west side and therefore closer to Chicago (comparatively speaking).

No. Gary is not as bad as people say it is; it's just an overstatement by people who have a problem with that city for one reason or another.

I flew PanAm there during the Christmas holiday a few years ago. My flight left from MidAmerica-St. Louis. Now, GYY is not as new and modern as BLV...we had to deplane via airstairs whereas BLV uses jetways (on a recent flight from BWI-ORD we flew over GYY and I swear I saw two jetways) and the baggage claim area consisted of a large shelf-style chute where the only separation from the outside was a plastic flap. And yes, the layout was rather awkward...no access to restrooms or anything else once you pass through security.

They advertised a rail connection (Chicago/South Shore/South Bend Line). There was a stop about a mile from the airport (on the same road as GYY, I believe), but it is basically a bus stop shelter structure (although with heat, I think) and it's only for people getting off the train. If you want to get on, it's a different station a couple of miles to the west (someone who worked at GYY actually drove me there after my then-$300 credit card wasn't enough to procure a rental car). The snow was nearly knee-deep, it was frostbite cold, and the train was 40 minutes late - however, it did take me into downtown Chicago (and no I was not scared). On the way back to GYY, I got off at the little depot, waited for the local bus, and tried walking until I saw the bus coming.

Oh yeah...the plane was full going up and coming back with the vast majority of people deplaning and boarding at GYY...and it wasn't a gambling junket flight!

So there were good things and bad things about that trip. GYY wouldn't be my first choice, but the price was right and I did get to support service from BLV. And yes, I would've tried it again...in warmer weather!

BTW, people say the same thing about the metro-east area of St. Louis in Illinois because many people would have to pass through East St. Louis to get to BLV albeit on the highway. They also say that it's too far - although it's fair to note that some of these people live in suburbs that are half way to Jefferson City! I live less than 10 minutes from STL and the drive to BLV takes less than 30 minutes in good traffic (at least the way I drive).

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