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United787
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El Al Routes Over The Middle East

Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:06 am

I was surfing El Al’s website and noticed something interesting on their route map. All of the routes headed east from Tel Aviv make drastic detours around the middle east, mainly Iraq, Iran and Saudi Arabia. I understand that route maps are diagrammatic and not meant to be taken literally, but the routes in this map seem deliberate. I understand why this would be, but do they really fly that route as shown? It seems really inefficient. Do they not have permission to fly over any of these countries or do they avoid them for their own safety purposes.

http://www.elal.co.il/default.asp?v_doc_id=340&v_lang_id=0

Related to this, do US airlines not have permission to fly over any countries, Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Burma?

Please forgive me if this issue has already been discussed, but I couldn’t find a forum specific to this topic.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: El Al Routes Over The Middle East

Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:13 am

Quoting United787 (Thread starter):
Do they not have permission to fly over any of these countries or do they avoid them for their own safety purposes

No, they do not have air rights over those areas, they are still in a "state of war".

However, one of the more interesting facts in LY history was their service to Tehran, Iran.

I've posted the topic before, and you will find archeived.
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KL808
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RE: El Al Routes Over The Middle East

Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:16 am

Quoting United787 (Thread starter):
do they really fly that route as shown?

Yes.

They dont have permission to fly over islamic countries in the region such as Saudi, Iran etc.

It has to do with Israels diplomatic ties with those said countries. Since there is no diplomatic ties with any of those countries, flying over and other matters are not allowed. And ofcourse the obvious reason that all of these countries can't get along.

Drew
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FoxBravo
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RE: El Al Routes Over The Middle East

Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:24 am

Quoting United787 (Thread starter):
Related to this, do US airlines not have permission to fly over any countries, Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Burma?

U.S. airlines routinely fly over Cuba--for example, on JFK-MBJ. I do not believe U.S. airlines can fly over Iran or North Korea. However, Burma/Myanmar shouldn't be a problem.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
KL808
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RE: El Al Routes Over The Middle East

Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:28 am

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 3):
I do not believe U.S. airlines can fly over Iran

I think they can.

By the way an NW DC-10 landed in Teheran a couple months back due to mechanical problems. This would have not been possible if it was LY.

Drew
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United787
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RE: El Al Routes Over The Middle East

Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:35 am

Why would El Al even fly east if they have to take such a detour. I would imagine that it would a couple of hours to a flight. If I was a potential passenger, I would take another airline, if there was an alternative choice.
 
MGASJO
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RE: El Al Routes Over The Middle East

Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:36 am

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 3):
.S. airlines routinely fly over Cuba--for example, on JFK-MBJ.

Not only that. All flights from Central and South America bound to MIA or JFK fly over Cuba. Many AA captains say the controllers in Cuba are very professional, friendly and helpful, there is only one spot on the northeast part of Cuba they get jumpy when asked to fly over there.
C208B
 
dtwclipper
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RE: El Al Routes Over The Middle East

Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:53 am

Quoting United787 (Reply 5):
Why would El Al even fly east if they have to take such a detour. I would imagine that it would a couple of hours to a flight. If I was a potential passenger, I would take another airline, if there was an alternative choice

An Example:

In the 1960's LY flew JFK-JNB; They flew east to Teheran, from there southwest over the Persian Gulf to central Africa, then to JNB. It involved 25 heading changes to avaoid flying over "hostile" areas.

It was a 16 hour flight, and added 2,400 miles to the trip.
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KL808
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RE: El Al Routes Over The Middle East

Sat Oct 01, 2005 1:04 am

Quoting United787 (Reply 5):
Why would El Al even fly east if they have to take such a detour. I would imagine that it would a couple of hours to a flight

True, however, its asian network is very profitable.

HKG and BKK is doing good.

How exactly could you get from TLV to Asia, without flying LY?

As far as I can tell, you cant unless you fly to CAI, ATH or Aman and from there to Asia. Thats a Detour also, which involves more time than the detour with LY.

Drew
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ly7e7
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RE: El Al Routes Over The Middle East

Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:47 am

Quoting KL808 (Reply 8):
you fly to CAI, ATH or Aman and from there to Asia. Thats a Detour also, which involves more time than the detour with LY

Actually flying TLV-AMM-XXX with RJ (XXX being an East-Asian destination) is still faster than taking LY's detour. RJ offers excellent connections from TLV, that's why they are so succefull here.
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MAH4546
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RE: El Al Routes Over The Middle East

Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:51 am

Quoting United787 (Thread starter):
Related to this, do US airlines not have permission to fly over any countries, Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Burma?

Cuba and Iran, yes. Don't know about the other to. Remember, it is the US that has something against Cuba and Iran, not the other way around. Cuba and Iran are very willing to even let US airline fly there on a scheduled basis, if the US would let them.
a.
 
MKEdude
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RE: El Al Routes Over The Middle East

Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:04 am

What about in the event of an emergency? If an LY aircraft experienced an emergency while flying down the Red Sea, could Saudi Arabia refuse them permission to land?
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline." Frank Zappa
 
AC787
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RE: El Al Routes Over The Middle East

Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:56 am

Quoting MGASJO (Reply 6):
there is only one spot on the northeast part of Cuba they get jumpy when asked to fly over there.

what is there? Guantanamo?
 
FoxBravo
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RE: El Al Routes Over The Middle East

Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:42 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
Remember, it is the US that has something against Cuba and Iran, not the other way around.

That was true of Afghanistan a few years back, but the U.S. still did not let its airlines fly over the country. In fact, as I recall Delta had to suspend its codeshare with Swissair (yes, back when SR still existed, and DL still codeshared with them!) on ZRH-BKK because the flights crossed Afghan airspace.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
irelayer
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RE: El Al Routes Over The Middle East

Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:04 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
Cuba and Iran, yes. Don't know about the other to. Remember, it is the US that has something against Cuba and Iran, not the other way around.

Incorrect in Iran's case (I don't know about Cuba). The US and Iran have a problem with each other. The two governments have had mutual distrust of one another ever since...well you might have heard of it...the Iranian Hostage Crisis (1980-81). In response to this the US cut off formal diplomatic ties to Iran and imposed sanctions on Iran which stand to this day. It is illegal for any US citizen to do business with Iran. Not to mention that in Iran the government endorses the phrase "The Great Satan" to describe the US Government. So they both hate each other (the governments, not the people).

Basically there is more of a chance of the US normalizing relations with Cuba in the near future than with Iran, especially with the nuclear issue on the table.

-IR
 
boysteve
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RE: El Al Routes Over The Middle East

Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:31 am

Quoting United787 (Reply 5):
Why would El Al even fly east if they have to take such a detour. I would imagine that it would a couple of hours to a flight. If I was a potential passenger, I would take another airline, if there was an alternative choice.

All alternatives from the region would be Arabic, so wouldn't fly from Israel.

That was true of Afghanistan a few years back, but the U.S. still did not let its airlines fly over the country

SQ's MAN-SIN flight flies over Afghanistan in both directions, or it did when I was on board last month
 
FoxBravo
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RE: El Al Routes Over The Middle East

Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:22 am

Quoting Boysteve (Reply 15):
SQ's MAN-SIN flight flies over Afghanistan in both directions, or it did when I was on board last month

As did BA and QF when I flew them between LHR and BKK. But none of these are U.S. airlines!  Smile

Besides, now that the Taliban are out, the U.S. has lifted those restrictions anyway.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
ETStar
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RE: El Al Routes Over The Middle East

Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:53 am

Quoting Boysteve (Reply 15):
All alternatives from the region would be Arabic, so wouldn't fly from Israel.

As surprising as it is, BKK bound pax from TLV also use Ethiopian Airlines via ADD, with this airline providing good connections and doing quite a bit of marketing for it...

Quoting MKEdude (Reply 11):

What about in the event of an emergency? If an LY aircraft experienced an emergency while flying down the Red Sea, could Saudi Arabia refuse them permission to land?

A few years ago, an LY flight had an emergency and landed in Djibouti. No hell broke loose.
 
levg79
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RE: El Al Routes Over The Middle East

Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:54 am

Don't know about Iran and North Korea, but US airlines do fly over Cuba regularly. I would assume CU also overflies the US on its flights to Canada and Europe.

Not only that, CO even provides service between MIA and HAV

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Remember, Americans can't go to Cuba as tourists, but can go otherwise, such as visiting relatives or on job-related visits.
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nycflyer
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RE: El Al Routes Over The Middle East

Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:46 am

Quoting KL808 (Reply 4):
By the way an NW DC-10 landed in Teheran a couple months back due to mechanical problems

Whoa, where on earth was a NW DC-10 flying that it was over Iran?? Was it a charter or ferry flight? None of NW's normal routes go anywhere near that part of the world.

Interestingly: I've flown to Kuwait twice, once on LH (FRA-KWI), and the other on KU (LHR-KWI). LH flew straight over Iraq, top to bottom, en route to KWI. That is the most direct routing from Europe.

KU, on the other hand, when well out of its way to go south of Iraq, and turn north over Saudi Arabia before landing. So KU clearly does not overly Iraq, and LH does. Must be some legacy of the 1990 invasion, but I'm surprised they still do not, now that Saddam is no longer in power.
 
USADreamliner
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RE: El Al Routes Over The Middle East

Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:59 am

Quoting United787 (Reply 5):
Why would El Al even fly east if they have to take such a detour. I would imagine that it would a couple of hours to a flight. If I was a potential passenger, I would take another airline, if there was an alternative choice

Like what airline?
BA? flying to London west 5 hours?
LH,AF,LX?

Please...

USAdreamliner
 
ahlfors
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RE: El Al Routes Over The Middle East

Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:10 am

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 19):
Whoa, where on earth was a NW DC-10 flying that it was over Iran?? Was it a charter or ferry flight? None of NW's normal routes go anywhere near that part of the world.

The daily flight from Amsterdam to Mumbai goes over Iran twice daily (once in both directions).