MAH4546
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LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:58 am

LANArgentina today recieved the final US approval needed to begin non-stop service between Miami and Buenos Aires. LANArgentina will inagurate a daily 767-300ER service between the two cities, operated with LANChile aircraft and flight crew and LANArgentina cabin crew. While a start date has not been finalized, they are aiming for December.

Buenos Aires is the 9th city served by the LAN group from Miami, joining Bogota, Cancun (transit traffic only), Caracas, Guayaquil, Lima, Quito, Punta Cana, and Santiago de Chile.

Good week for MIA. Delta to Salt Lake City, Domodedovo to Moscow, and confirmation of LANArgentina to Buenos Aires.

[Edited 2005-10-01 01:01:02]
a.
 
Marambio
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:46 am

Thanks for the news Mark.

I have to admit that, even though not surprised, I'm disappointed by our Government. It is absurd how it takes ages for Aerolíneas to get authorization for flights to Uruguay, while Lan got them to fly to Miami in less than half a year (they have been operating since June).

By operating SCL-EZE-MIA, Lan is, again, breaking the contract they signed with the Argentine Government. They are supposed to operate with 100% Argentine crews - both pilots and flight attendants. I know some members will start saying Argentina is under CAT2. That's right, and therefore Lan must wait - just like Aerolíneas is waiting for new frequencies and destinations, albeit they got approval for operating their 744s and A310s to the USA.

The fact that Lan Argentina comercializes flights operated by Lan Chile, with CC-aircraft, is a huge handicap for Argentine airlines, not able to add new frequencies and destinations to the USA because of the abovementioned reasons. As the flight is operated by Lan Chile, the Argentine Government should request Lan Chile for the necessary proceedings to get, as a foreign airline, the rights for that route.

Air Plus Comet had to go through this, although they just operate an average of two EZE-MAD flights per week on behalf of Aerolíneas, the latter being the only airline to commercialize them. Furthermore, AR has been trying to operate some of their regional flights, like EZE-LIM, with Austral planes and Aerolíneas flight numbers, but they were denied to do so. Austral had to file for the route authority, although they are just operating the flights - not comercializing them, like Lan Chile will do with SCL-EZE-MIA.

Flying SCL-EZE-MIA shows how all Lan subsidiaries accross South America are simply shadow, feeder companies for Lan Chile. Neither in Peru nor in Ecuador does Lan operate flights to the US with local-registered aircraft. I don't know about Peru or Ecuador, but here in Argentina, although legal, it is something not nice at all from them.

Before being called protective of the Argentine market, let me say I have no problem with Lan Argentina as long as they obbey the rules. In this case, the rule states Argentine airlines cannot start new flights to the USA. Again, if Lan Argentina is Argentine, then they should play fair and start flying to the USA only after Argentina is upgraded to CAT1.

Saludos,
Marambio
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
 
Arcano
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Sat Oct 01, 2005 1:08 pm

Hola MArambio,

How is the legal process doing?

Quoting Marambio (Reply 1):
They are supposed to operate with 100% Argentine crews ...
...Neither in Peru nor in Ecuador does Lan operate flights to the US with local-registered aircraft. I don't know about Peru or Ecuador, but here in Argentina, although legal, it is something not nice at all from them.

LAN flies domestically in Chile with Argentine crew and f/a, and some flights with ocasional VP registred aircraft. Why is so important? Why should them wait? just for AR not being able to do it with LV aircrafts? for your believes you restrain all your country people, including those who has the right to not care about it?

Believe me, I see and understand your point of view, but come on, you can say CC aircrafts are legal but not "nice". But isn't nice indeed to offer direct flights with great service, PTVs equiped aircrafts, daily frequencies and hence more options to Argentine paxs?
I know that is just for business, not for charity, but accept that you have more options, and now you are not restricted to AR/AA to MIA, you don't have to wait for AR to be able for it.

Con todo respeto...
Saludos )( Arcano
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
MD11junkie
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Sat Oct 01, 2005 3:35 pm

Hola Arcano,

Quoting Arcano (Reply 2):
LAN flies domestically in Chile with Argentine crew and f/a, and some flights with ocasional VP registred aircraft. Why is so important? Why should them wait? just for AR not being able to do it with LV aircrafts? for your believes you restrain all your country people, including those who has the right to not care about it?

Uh... it's called agreement. If they are a DOMESTIC Argentine airline, they need to restrain themselves to the Argentine regulation and limitations. This only proves how LAN is owned by AMR.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 2):
Believe me, I see and understand your point of view, but come on, you can say CC aircrafts are legal but not "nice"

You are a man of word, right? Apparently LAN is not. They signed an agreement with the Federal Government saying that ALL LAN Argentina flights were to be flown by LV-*** registered aircraft. They are not fulfilling that point. Chilean registered (CC-***) or Barbados (VP-***) registered airplanes have nothing to do in the mix.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 2):
But isn't nice indeed to offer direct flights with great service, PTVs equiped aircrafts, daily frequencies and hence more options to Argentine paxs?

Of course it is, it is even better when you respect the rules...

Quoting Arcano (Reply 2):
I know that is just for business, not for charity, but accept that you have more options, and now you are not restricted to AR/AA to MIA, you don't have to wait for AR to be able for it.

That's right, I don't have to wait. But I'd rather wait for AR, that its not lobbying anyone than to fly LA or AA (both are the same) and screw competitors of the so called 'free market'!

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
lanperu
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:23 am

I don't mean to add fuel to the fire, but this exactly what LAN has been doing with Peru for the past few years.

I don't really care that the planes are "Chilean" or anything like that "CC" "VP" or "OB" but what I do care is that the actual flights are just a stop enroute from SCL and they all terminate in SCL. I have flown SCL-LIM-LAX and can tell you that LIM was nothing more than a pit-stop..there was no change of crew in LIM nor was there anything that resembled "LAN Peru" on the flight...maybe the 70-80% -no joke- of Peruvians that boarded the flight..that made it kinda Peruvian but other than that...all I saw was LAN Chile.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 2):
LAN flies domestically in Chile with Argentine crew and f/a, and some flights with ocasional VP registred aircraft. Why is so important? Why should them wait? just for AR not being able to do it with LV aircrafts? for your believes you restrain all your country people, including those who has the right to not care about it?

It's funny how you say that...the Argentine crew members that fly domestically in Chile are people that IMMIGRATED to Chile looking for job opportunities..these are not crew that were rotated from Argentina so that really doesn't make a valid point. Now, it must be recognized that LAN is offering a nice product/service for the consumer...but which LAN is it? How is wanting to promote local industry restraining a country? If anything..LAN is putting local industry at risk...there will be less demand for international crew if LAN continues to grow from EZE...imagine?

SCL-EZE-MIA
SCL-EZE-JFK
SCL-EZE-MAD

Those are pretty big markets and all it will be is stop on a LAN Chile flight..because LAN is just a BS name...it just makes it easier for them rotate aircraft so people will be confused...trust me...it's sad..I have seen it here at home. "Hey! Did you know LAN Peru has a flight to LAX now?" LAN benifits the consumer just like they cheat them..not everyone knows how airlines work like us...

I don't see why isn't it that LAN cannot make a legitimate "Argentina" or "Peru" subsidiary...

LAN did the same trick in Peru..they started with 2-3 737-200ADV and then all of a sudden....BAM! "They" have a bunch of 767-300ER and flight to MIA JFK and LAX.

I hope LAN gets cited for these violations in Argentina especially if that was the agreement.
 
LAXintl
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:32 am

I've gotta say that one needs to honestly respect LAN for the great business acumen they posses.

They have truly become a pan South America company or basically a South American based multi national.

While parties in Argentina, or Peru might feel certain nationalist resentment against what LAN has been able to achieve, one needs to remember its the people in those same countries that have created the market conditions that allow for LAN to take advantage by the lack of or weakness at those countries own airlines. If LAN did not sense such opportunities and both Argentina and Peru had their own strong carriers, LAN would never bother to create subsidiaries.

At the end of the day, the parties that win are the consumers, they get more choice, lower fares and hopefully better and safer air transportation.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
MAH4546
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:37 am

Quoting LanPeru (Reply 4):
I don't really care that the planes are "Chilean" or anything like that "CC" "VP" or "OB" but what I do care is that the actual flights are just a stop enroute from SCL and they all terminate in SCL. I have flown SCL-LIM-LAX and can tell you that LIM was nothing more than a pit-stop..there was no change of crew in LIM nor was there anything that resembled "LAN Peru" on the flight...maybe the 70-80% -no joke- of Peruvians that boarded the flight..that made it kinda Peruvian but other than that...all I saw was LAN Chile.

That is because LANPeru does not fly to LAX. In the US, LanPeru only flies to Miami. LAX-LIM-SCL is a LANChile flight, a route flown long before LANPeru even existed. JFK-LIM-SCL is also a LANChile flight.
a.
 
lanperu
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:09 am

Actually...you're mistaken..LP608, LP609 and the new LP606 and LP607 are supposedly LAN Peru flights to LAX...they are operated I think 3x a week 608 and 609 were T-TH-SA but that has changed to LP606 and 607 but I am not sure on the exact days...LAN even advertises as "LanPeru now offers 10 weekly flights to Los Angeles"...
 
MD11junkie
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:11 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 5):
While parties in Argentina, or Peru might feel certain nationalist resentment against what LAN has been able to achieve

Resentment? Why yes of course. Wouldn't you be resented if LAN came in into your country breaking all the rules possible? Give me a break.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 5):
If LAN did not sense such opportunities and both Argentina and Peru had their own strong carriers, LAN would never bother to create subsidiaries.

WHAT? LAN has been trying to get into Argentina for years now, it's been its ultimate goal. Since previous governments didn't allow them to operate (De la Rua and Duhalde administration), they did even try to buy out AR but they didn't like the condition of leaving the name as 'Aerolineas Argentinas', so screw them - they didn't take it. Argentina has a VERY strong carrier which managed to get out of 'default' in just only 3 years and has paid back all of its debt, and operating WELL into the black ink. The problem is Kirchner's government and LAN, not AR or previous administrations. Again, give me a break. You would find it interesting reading the Argentine Aeronautic code and and previous accounts in this and various other threads on how LAN is breaking the rules. That is NOT fair play.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 5):
At the end of the day, the parties that win are the consumers, they get more choice, lower fares and hopefully better and safer air transportation.

Sure! In a country that has minimums and maximums for air fares, the consumers sure win. Argentina is one country that even a filled up plane will not make a profit, why? Because of these bands. Please, I invite you to read the previous post:

Transport Secretary Sued Because Of Lan Argentina (by Marambio Sep 14 2005 in Civil Aviation)

And inform yourself about LAN's activities in Argentina.

I can tell you about Argentina, not about Perú.

EDIT: P.S.: I want to see, as soon as the flight is started, how is it going to be operated, LA or 4M? Place your bets. I say, LA.

Cheers!  
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie

[Edited 2005-10-01 22:13:22]
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:43 am

I understand that LAN Argentina have further plans afoot to compete directly with AR on longhaul routes out of EZE in the near future.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
MAH4546
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:45 am

Quoting LanPeru (Reply 7):
LAN even advertises as "LanPeru now offers 10 weekly flights to Los Angeles"...

Via codeshare on LANChile. All LAN flights to LAX are LANChile-operated, with LANPeru codeshares. LANPeru does indeed advertise it as part of their network, because it is a codeshare. LANPeru crews only visit MIA in the US.
a.
 
lanperu
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:11 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
Via codeshare on LANChile. All LAN flights to LAX are LANChile-operated, with LANPeru codeshares. LANPeru does indeed advertise it as part of their network, because it is a codeshare. LANPeru crews only visit MIA in the US.

You would think wouldn't you? But actually it is "LP607" an actual LP flight as opposed to "LP5601 operated by LAN Chile". LP claims to have flight to LAX..but they originate in SCL...there is no change of crew or nothing...

I'm flying down at the end of Nov on these flight an will confirm everything..
 
MAH4546
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:20 am

Quoting LanPeru (Reply 11):
But actually it is "LP607" an actual LP flight as opposed to "LP5601 operated by LAN Chile".

Thanks for the correction. Then, as LP607/608, there is no reason it should not be operated by LP crew. LP5600/601 is LA crew.
a.
 
Arcano
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:11 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 3):
They signed an agreement with the Federal Government saying that ALL LAN Argentina flights were to be flown by LV-*** registered aircraft

There's a valid point there, I totally agree. But once again, don't mix "illegal" with "legal resourse", under any sort of codesharing, it could be legal, and we'd being talking in the "nice" territory stated by Marambio

Quoting LanPeru (Reply 4):
I don't mean to add fuel to the fire,

Your fuel is always welcome  Wink

Quoting LanPeru (Reply 4):
SCL-LIM-LAX and can tell you that LIM was nothing more than a pit-stop..there was no change of crew in LIM nor was there anything that resembled "LAN Peru" on the flight...maybe the 70-80% -no joke- of Peruvians that boarded the flight..that made it kinda Peruvian but other than that...all I saw was LAN Chile.

As posted by MAH4546, they were LA flights before LP, with only codeshares with LA, as LA does it with IB "offering" "LA flights" from MAD to BCN or SVQ. You know the point here, why keep arguing?

BTW, I'm going to NY next week, can you believe I found a US$350 SCL-JFK-SCL at lan.com? I'll let you know how I find LIM after the makeup

Quoting LanPeru (Reply 4):
I don't see why isn't it that LAN cannot make a legitimate "Argentina" or "Peru" subsidiary...

It's legitim and the most cost saving model they've found. Thus they make profits. And they can do it legally, or how is still flying in Peru after all the fuzz, please don't answer with the sad corrupt authorities crap.

LAN did the same trick in Peru..they started with 2-3 737-200ADV and then all of a sudden....BAM! "They" have a bunch of 767-300ER and flight to MIA JFK and LAX.

And BAM!, brand bew 320s flying domestically

Quoting LanPeru (Reply 4):
...imagine?

SCL-EZE-MIA
SCL-EZE-JFK
SCL-EZE-MAD

LAN does not need a third country to fill MAD or MIA, so why do you think they would take seats for Argentina costumers by selling them for Chileans from SCL?

The only explanation would be lack of aircraft, and preciselly not many weeks ago LAN recognized some of their LAN Argentina expansion was restrained by lack of a/c

Regards )(
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Kohflot
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:25 pm

I'm not a very frequent observer of South American affairs, but LAN's ability to create trans-border operations brings up an interesting question.

What are the chances of an eventual union of South American countries, a south-of-Equator version of the EU? An entity with a common currency and a environment that makes it easy for more of these trans-border businesses to flourish?

And, more on topic, another question. Is the negative sentiment towards LANArgentina's lack of Argentine influence widespread, or just limited to a few?
Ask why..
 
MD11junkie
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:10 pm

Hola Arcano,

Quoting Arcano (Reply 13):
But once again, don't mix "illegal" with "legal resourse", under any sort of codesharing, it could be legal, and we'd being talking in the "nice" territory stated by Marambio

Yes, of course. It is nice to discuss it in a nice manner, sorry, I just a little bit worked up over this issue.
Now, what you're suggesting here that 'illegal' is not 'legal resource', is just not to be applied here. What LAN is doing, is illegal. LAN has been authorized to fly SCL-EZE-MIA as LAN Argentina, so LAN Argentina cannot sell flights as 4MXXXX operated by LAN Chile, why not? Because the one authorized to fly the route, was LAN Argentina. They may LEASE the airplanes from LAN Chile, but not make it fly the route. Also, this has to make it comply with the Argeement, the aircraft has to be LV-*** registered planes to fully comply with the agreement signed with the Federal Government, they are breaking the rules set - thus, illegal.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 13):
And BAM!, brand bew 320s flying domestically

I think you meant new  Wink
That's what I want to see at AEP - 320s and 319s, to break the 737 monotony  Smile

Quoting Arcano (Reply 13):
LAN does not need a third country to fill MAD or MIA, so why do you think they would take seats for Argentina costumers by selling them for Chileans from SCL?

Then what is the point of starting 'LAN Argentina's' flights to MIA or MAD from SCL? Is the point making Pudahuel the biggest hub in Latin America?

Quoting Arcano (Reply 13):
The only explanation would be lack of aircraft, and preciselly not many weeks ago LAN recognized some of their LAN Argentina expansion was restrained by lack of a/c

And the IGJ blocking the 4th 737-200... [which, I think its the real reason]

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
MD11junkie
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:15 pm

Hi Kohflot,

Quoting Kohflot (Reply 14):
What are the chances of an eventual union of South American countries, a south-of-Equator version of the EU? An entity with a common currency and a environment that makes it easy for more of these trans-border businesses to flourish?

It's called Mercosur. The union is still in early development issues (although its 14 years old), and there's too much raw stuff to be cut off and be polished before starting to discuss anything like a common currency.

Quoting Kohflot (Reply 14):
And, more on topic, another question. Is the negative sentiment towards LANArgentina's lack of Argentine influence widespread, or just limited to a few?

It is well spread among the people that actually KNOW about aviation and legalities. General people, just guide by what the media says.

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:27 pm

Quoting Kohflot (Reply 14):
What are the chances of an eventual union of South American countries, a south-of-Equator version of the EU? An entity with a common currency and a environment that makes it easy for more of these trans-border businesses to flourish?

I think Mercosur already allows people from those countries to live and work in the other countries indefinitely.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
Aero
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:42 am

Next LanArgentina`s expansion will surely be EZE-MAD.

Aerolineas del Sur could lease a Boeing 747-400 from Aerolineas Argentinas and require flight operations from SCL to MIA or even start in BUE via SCL.
Why not?, they could!!!...the Chilean legislation allows that.

What Chile wanted from Argentina was "reciprocity"...it took a while, but it happened. The European union has pointed out Chile´s open sky policies and named it as an example to follow in the Americas.

Bytheway: Peruvians love flying with LAN. What happend with TACA Perú, nobody complains about it, also a subsidary of the TACA Group from Costa Rica.

No issues with Ecuador so far.

Rgds,
Pablo

ps: I just came from JFK to FRA with Singapore Airlines....wow! Excellent...
A lot of work to do in Latin America...
LAN...the star of the Latin American skies
 
USADreamliner
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:21 am

F*#@K LAN!

Aguante Aerolineas!!!

USADreamliner  biggrin   bigthumbsup 
 
TBCITDG
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:40 am

The other topic we seem to "overlook" is the unfair balance that will be created when you have an LA+AA senario to MIA and JFK, but also an LA+IB force on the MAD route. Price fixing, seat dumping? Who knows? These are all things that need to be looked at so as everyone competes "fairly". You have a CAT 2 carrier up against two CAT 1 airlines. Something that is out of AR's reach, but easily "fixed" in LA by using CC registered aircraftwith a quick transit stop in EZE. But hey "we'll still call it a Lan Argtentina flight".
Ps:
Did LA keep it's promise to take on ALL of the LAFSA employees? Doubt it very much.
 
Trolley Dolley
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:45 am

Personally I can't see the big deal. Here in New Zealand both employers and the economy have benefited from having foreign owned (ie Australian) airlines setting up base here. The majority of the employees are local and the airlines spend lots of money to promote NZ and bring people here, further boosting the wider economy. Indeed AR is free to dump capacity on the Tasman route at levels that are uncompetitive with the levels offered by the Australian or New Zealand aircraft, but no one seems to be complaining about that. (AR is not alone, LA and many others can do that as well.)

Re the requirement of nationality for the flight crew. Pilots are totally different as it's an international occupation. I've flown with Americans on Qantas, Singaporeans in Zimbabwe, British in South Africa, Canadians in Hong Kong, you get the picture.

What's the big issue with LA if it can find a way of servicing the Argentine market, while employing locals and offering higher safety standards than possible by the local airlines?

Please enlighten me further as I am genuinely don't understand the anti LA sentiment.
 
luisde8cd
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:48 am

Quoting Kohflot (Reply 14):
What are the chances of an eventual union of South American countries, a south-of-Equator version of the EU? An entity with a common currency and a environment that makes it easy for more of these trans-border businesses to flourish?

The South American Community of Nations was created about a year ago. It is supposed to merge both MERCOSUR and the Andean Community into a single South American bloc.

Regretfully, our friends down in the south cone can't solve their trade differences and can't get the MERCOSUR to work as it should. Brazil and Argentina which are the most important players in the region are increasing tariffs on each other products instead of doing the opposite. Chile is opening up its market very aggresively but regretfully it is opening it to the USA and Asia. They haven't signed a single free trade agreement with any South AMerican country (correct me if Im wrong).

MERCOSUR should get their shit back in order before we merge into a single South American bloc. They should follow the Andean Community example, where we will start using common passports starting Dec 15th 2005. We also have a real free trade zone in the region and many products I consume are made in other Andean countries. Venezuela is the HQs for many large international companies that do business in the region. Colombia follows closely.

We (S. America) should start eliminating trade barriers, instead of imposing new ones. Forget about LAN suffixes and just name it LAN. Get ride of the country suffixes. TACA already changed its name to Transportes Aereos del Continente Americano (Air Transports of the American Continent). I would love to see LAN operating in Venezuela with new A320s to force VH and others to get rid of their DC9s and start getting at least MD80s.

Those imbecile rules should be rewritten to allow S. American companies to own airlines as they were from the country where the law is written. Look at Europe... I dont think Italians are pissed that they are flying an Irish registered 738 from Rome to Nice. Come on guys, lets integrate!!!! we need to become a powerful bloc, we can do it.... same religion, same historic background, same language, same culture.

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
TBCITDG
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:04 pm

Trolley Dolley:
1. I know that this is off the topic, but does it not bother you that employees in New Zealand earn less and work more than people working for the same airline over seas?
2. How is AR and LA seat dumping? They only fly between SYD-AKL 4 times a week max?
3.Competition, sure it is great, but as a result didn't NZ almost go belly up? QF's aggressive push into the NZ market did not help.

The issue here is not so much an "anti LA' sentiment, it is the unfair way in which it gained access into Argentina (by buying a virtual airline) and by not keeping it's side of the promise to take on all employees from the defunct LAFSA, so no, they are not offering all that they promised. They had to serve "non profit" routes as well, yet they seem to only really serve destinations that suits them ie: COR MIA MDZ and the like.
 
BigGSFO
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:25 pm

Will AA be code-sharing on this new flight? Will LanArgentina be able to code share on AA's current JFK/MIA-EZE flights as well?
 
Trolley Dolley
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Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2000 1:57 pm

RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:05 pm

TBCITBG. Thanks for your points.

Re your points addressed at me specifically.
1) No, it does not bother me about the wage difference. Costs and tax regieme is different in different to Australia. I'm a proud Australian that lives in NZ, and every time a Kiwi moans that wages are less than Australia, I point out that tax rates, house prices etc are also lower in NZ. There are structural reasons for international salary differences.
2) I was in the industry when AR offered fares like $299 return. This was well below the rates offered by other carriers at the time and forced them to react, thus depressing yield. Just because you're small, doesn't mean you can't pack a punch!
3) NZ nearly went belly up because of its own actions and poor business accumen. It couldn't handle the competition from a number of airlines.

Thanks, I was unaware that LA had to operate "non profit routes" and take on employees. If this is the case, and LA has broken the law, could their certification not be withdrawn?
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:19 pm

Quoting Aero (Reply 18):
Next LanArgentina`s expansion will surely be EZE-MAD

I surely put my money on this one to be the first one.

Quoting Aero (Reply 18):
Aerolineas del Sur could lease a Boeing 747-400 from Aerolineas Argentinas and require flight operations from SCL to MIA or even start in BUE via SCL.

No, they can't, but because of metal shortage. The 747-400s are to replace the 747-200s, as there are two in operations still - one with a crack in the fuse, with limited cycles. They might perhaps, want to lease ONE of the 747-200s.

Quoting Aero (Reply 18):
Why not?, they could!!!...the Chilean legislation allows that.

Well, in that case - I3 might re register the plane as CC-***. If Chilean laws allow it, good for them. Argentine laws, don't.

Quoting Aero (Reply 18):
What Chile wanted from Argentina was "reciprocity"...it took a while, but it happened. The European union has pointed out Chile´s open sky policies and named it as an example to follow in the Americas.

Good, still. Argentina is not ready for open skies and will not be for a long time, as soon as we are CAT I again. And still, LAN is the International airline with more flights to Argentina, by far.

Quoting Aero (Reply 18):
Bytheway: Peruvians love flying with LAN. What happend with TACA Perú, nobody complains about it, also a subsidary of the TACA Group from Costa Rica.

I don't know why there wasn't so much of a fuzz when TACA entered Chile, but yes when LAN entered Chile - that speaks about something  Yeah sure

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 20):
The other topic we seem to "overlook" is the unfair balance that will be created when you have an LA+AA senario to MIA and JFK, but also an LA+IB force on the MAD route

This is certainly not overlooked. This authorization is a result of the AA lobby in the United States to downgrade Argentina to CAT II and have United States as CAT I still. The agreement only shows how well American Airlines plays the cards for her daughter company. That's why Aerolineas Argentinas has SO much trouble getting authorization for the A310s and 747-400s, and it was a huge ordeal to get the A340-200s.

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 20):
Something that is out of AR's reach, but easily "fixed" in LA by using CC registered aircraftwith a quick transit stop in EZE. But hey "we'll still call it a Lan Argtentina flight".

AND THIS... is how LAN violates the agreement with the Federal Government, THANK YOU!

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 20):
Did LA keep it's promise to take on ALL of the LAFSA employees? Doubt it very much.

About 250 remain to be employed, and there have been some unruled losses of jobs.

Quoting Trolley Dolley (Reply 21):
What's the big issue with LA if it can find a way of servicing the Argentine market, while employing locals and offering higher safety standards than possible by the local airlines?

Higher safety standers? HA! The issue is that the law doesn't allow it.

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 23):
They had to serve "non profit" routes as well, yet they seem to only really serve destinations that suits them ie: COR MIA MDZ and the like.

THEY HAVE to do that. It's a part of the agreement. They are currently serving some destinations, which are the most profitable. Still, this is understandable that they do not do it, because of the lack of planes.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 22):
Brazil and Argentina which are the most important players in the region are increasing tariffs on each other products instead of doing the opposite

This is what happens when you have 3 left-wing nutcases in Government. Kirchner, Lula, and Chavez.

Quoting Trolley Dolley (Reply 21):
Please enlighten me further as I am genuinely don't understand the anti LA sentiment.

The LA anti-sentiment comes out of LA not respecting the rules nor the agreement they signed with the Federal Government. End of story.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 24):
Will AA be code-sharing on this new flight? Will LanArgentina be able to code share on AA's current JFK/MIA-EZE flights as well?

As pointed out before, oneworld alliance will probably be their excuse.

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
TBCITDG
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:14 pm

Hey Trolley!
You may not complain about it, yet you should speak to the cabin crew that are based in AKL and work for QF. What is their pay like? What are their working conditions? Irrespective of the fact that they do THE SAME JOB as their Australian collegues. Very unfair, wouldn't you think so?
Sure AR and even LA offered very low fares at times, but this does not mean that they where "dumping". The frequency was just not there. Especially by LA as most seats at the time where 'sold' by QF. Had they operated 2 flights per day, sure I would understand, but not when you where only flying 3 times per week (at the time by AR).

Am glad this thread has enlightened you in some form or another. Though there are two sides. IMO, LA plays unfairly. Not only in Argentina but also un Peru. Good airline for sure, though they have left many people in Argentina without the jobs they where promised, and many citys unserviced as they promised.
 
MD11junkie
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Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:27 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 26):
I don't know why there wasn't so much of a fuzz when TACA entered Chile, but yes when LAN entered Chile - that speaks about something

Correction, I meant Perú. TACA entering Peru, and LAN entering PERU

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:27 am

Quoting Aero (Reply 18):
Aerolineas del Sur could lease a Boeing 747-400 from Aerolineas Argentinas and require flight operations from SCL to MIA or even start in BUE via SCL.

It would be great, but they are trying to expand to MAD first, at least this is what they've announced

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 20):
but also an LA+IB force on the MAD route. Price fixing, seat dumping? Who knows?

With the arrival of Air Madrid to SCL, IB matched the prices, while LAN just made an offer, but US$200 more expensive, so I couldn't say there is a real alliance. Remember that Spain just accepted more frequencies, so, as posted in the paragraph above, we should expect more competition

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 22):
We (S. America) should start eliminating trade barriers, instead of imposing new ones

The main reason for Chile not joining Mercosur, our economy is more open, with a flat 6% of import duties.

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 23):
The issue here is not so much an "anti LA' sentiment, it is the unfair way in which it gained access into Argentina (by buying a virtual airline) and by not keeping it's side of the promise to take on all employees from the defunct LAFSA, so no, they are not offering all that they promised.

PURE SPECULATION

Quoting Trolley Dolley (Reply 21):
Please enlighten me further as I am genuinely don't understand the anti LA sentiment.

There are people/government/airlines arounf that can't stand the fact that LAN is the most sucessful airline of the continent, for 75 years and counting. Only JJ/CM/TA seems to match LA achievements, although JJ is younger.

[Edited 2005-10-13 04:29:05]
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:35 pm

Quoting Arcano (Reply 29):
Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 23):
The issue here is not so much an "anti LA' sentiment, it is the unfair way in which it gained access into Argentina (by buying a virtual airline) and by not keeping it's side of the promise to take on all employees from the defunct LAFSA, so no, they are not offering all that they promised.

PURE SPECULATION

Eh - dude. It's a fact. No speculation. They are not even close to fulfilling what they promised. 205 (now) remain to be employed by LAN Argentina [note, the deadline to employ all these people was August 8th, and they had an extension granted till September 25th - never got to the deadline with the results they were asked for]. 50 were fired without warning/reason. So - my guess is that the agreement to LAN is pure BS.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 29):
There are people/government/airlines arounf that can't stand the fact that LAN is the most sucessful airline of the continent, for 75 years and counting.

Well, certainly we cannot stop that. They have a business model - and I don't know if what they did here is part of it, they are extremely successful.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 29):
Only JJ/CM/TA seems to match LA achievements, although JJ is younger.

And AR would be right on top with them if it weren't for mommy AA.

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
Aero
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:34 am

It is confirmed:

LAN Argentina (Part of LAN Alliance) announced its first international daily service from Buenos Aires (EZE) to Miami starting this December 1st.

Round service will start at 10.15 pm from Buenos Aires and 08.15 pm from Miami arriving at 07.05 am in EZE.

read more: http://www.lan.com/about_us/noticias/2005_10_17.html

Great news LAN!


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2travel2know
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RE: LANArgentina Approved To Fly MIA-EZE

Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:17 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 15):
Is the point making Pudahuel the biggest hub in Latin America?

Neither SCL nor EZE are suitable candidates for the "biggest hub in Latinamerica" title; They're just too far south.. Just imagine flying GRU-SCL-LAX or LIM-EZE-MAD, however - in a not too distant future - I visualize LA feeder flights between COR, MDZ, TUC, SLA, ROS, MVD, ASU, POA, FLN, VVI, LPB, CBB and SCL hub.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!