KarlB737
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Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:17 am

Courtesy: The Detroit Free Press

NWA Wants To Create A New Airline For Smaller Planes

http://www.freep.com/news/latestnews/pm6357_20050930.htm
 
Indy
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:00 am

I'm trying to decide if that makes sense or not. Is it wise for a company in bankruptcy to try and start up another airline? Or could this increase revenue by not paying the likes of Pinnacle for their service.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
Web
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:49 am

I think this would work well. By doing it, NW eliminates disputes over who flies the (hopefully) soon-to-come 70-100 seaters. There will then be three "classes" of flying: regional (<70 seats), large regional (70-100 seats, and mainline (>100 seats); each class having its own seniority ranking, pay scale, etc. Also, with the ARJs leaving the fleet, there is a definate need for the new subsidiary to fill the 70-100 seat gap that will exist.
 
LUVRSW
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sat Oct 01, 2005 1:12 pm

I think NW is using this as leverage to get the pilots to change the scope clause. NW pilots may end up flying CRJ's and the AVRO's, if they keep them. They may keep little ol' Mesaba around to fly the SAAB's....and maybe sell Pinnacle....after they have been building them up for the last few years??? HMMMM....
 
sunking737
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:58 pm

Just another way for the RED TAILED SHARK to take another bite out of the employees pay.
Just an MSPAVGEEK
 
m404
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:06 pm

Think you've got it reversed.


They want to start another carrier to replace the Mesaba AVROs with new 2nd gen RJs of 70-100 seats and make sure they are not flown by mainline crews. This would insure that they did not use mainline gates and ground handlers. This would also allow them to get rid of any mainline personnel that might be at some stations they went into. They want mainline pilots to forgo the scope clause upwards. Probably to 100 or above only. The pilots likely have until the end of November to decide to honor that or have their contract abrogated by the BK judge which they have already reportedly readied the paperwork.

The IAM personnel were given the same kind of deal. Sign off all scope, job security, part time, classification, and full rights to subcontract all IAM jobs. Or else.
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
sunking737
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Plan

Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:13 pm

No I have it right NW just wants to mess over all the employees even more then they have all ready.


If you take care of your employees, they will take care of you. You screw them and they will screw you.
Just an MSPAVGEEK
 
GSPSPOT
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:25 pm

Sunking737: No matter what your political outlook is, what you said is right. Companies have to place employees higher on their priorities list.
Finally made it to an airline mecca!
 
m404
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:28 pm

Sunking - Chill I was refering to LUVRSW's input not yours.

That they want to screw with employees is obvious. It's the "How" I was detailing. As for the employees screwing them back - how? No Union, no rights, no nets at all, no matter which we sign with our without the union. The only was employees will screw them is the performance of the uncommitted 3rd party low-bid contractors they get to be replacements, We've already seen how they work as we waste a lot of our own productivity protecting the company and the passenger for their own totally detached ineptitude now.
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
sunking737
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:07 pm

Sorry guys, Its just that I used to work for the old Republic, and I have a family member who stayed after the RC/NW and he just retired 30 June after 25 years.

being that I live in the MSP area, I see and hear about NW all the time.

I would still be at RC if NWA had not bought them out. I got tired of the games being played my NW, so I left.

Unions are very good they get the employees what the employee needs, good pay and alike. But the unions should stick together, it should not be AMFA, vs IAM, vs ALPHA.

The thing that hurt NW was the buy out in 1989 taking NW private. The Wilson group bleed NW DRY. They own every airplane, now all are leased.

Wilson and Company were still sell stock in NW right up to filling Chap 11. The BK court, and the unions should go after every penny they took out.

If NW starts a another smaller airline, soon that smaller carrier will become the "NEW NWA" the old one will be gone. With No unions !!!

Just my .2
Just an MSPAVGEEK
 
bobnwa
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:08 pm

Quoting LUVRSW (Reply 3):
....and maybe sell Pinnacle

They sold Pinnacle a few years ago.
 
burnsie28
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:29 am

This was proposed in the last set of pay reductions, its basically just what NW wanted the first time.
 
LUVRSW
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:01 am

I guess I was thinking that the NW pilots would gladly fly CRJ's, AVRO's, for lower pay, as long as they keep their jobs...but I guess XJ/9e is even cheaper for NW? Side Note: Burnsie, what a load of crap the NCAA is trying to pull with the Sioux name/mascot.
 
skibum9
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:15 am

This is nothing really new. In fact, NW proposed this new subsidiary many months ago in negotiations with the pilots, and at the time called the new subsidiary NEWCO.
Tailwinds!!!
 
7e72004
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:12 am

Is it possible or would it be possible for NW to simply to "convert" to a LCC type of carrier and keep its international network much like the new US is doing? Frankly, i see NW running into problems with some of its fleet, especially the DC-9s.
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
meister808
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:34 am

You can definitely see this kind of development coming, since NW is pretty much trying real hard to run XJ into the ground and is shrinking 9E significantly. Of course, the interesting thing is that, even though neither own their own airplanes, XJ could almost see itself in a situation to acquire some, break off of NW, and have a fairly successful market in the upper midwest/upper plains, especially if it contracted with UA, CO, or someone else that has a weak presence up here.

Side note: Yes, it is a load of crap, a big one. Go Sioux.

-Meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
m404
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:14 am

I'll bet XJ will bid to replace all the NW groundworkers phased out at spoke stations as well as bid on any new aircraft flying. Couldn't hurt to try and (just from what I've seen) they would do a better job on the ground than Pinnacle which embarassingly enough was owned by NW.
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
bucky707
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:18 am

Quoting Web (Reply 2):
There will then be three "classes" of flying: regional (<70 seats), large regional (70-100 seats, and mainline (>100 seats); each class having its own seniority ranking, pay scale, etc

actually, this is only partially true. The "newco" to fly the 70-100 seat aircraft will initially be staffed by NW furloughed pilots who will have complete ability to flow up to mainline NW when the timie comes. I think the same will also apply to new hires at the "newco", they will be able to flow up to mainline NW when their time comes. However, there will be seperate pay scales, work rules, etc. More importantly they will be able to hire seperate flight attendants, mechanics, etc, all at a different scale than mainline.
 
ejmmsu
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:51 am

As opposed to NWA "screwing the employees", I look at this more as "keeping NWA solvent and profitable into the future". One big problem NWA had was the huge number of gas guzzling 100 seaters (DC-9's) being flown at mainline pay and benefits. Also, the Avro configured with 69 seats is not particulary viable economically. Replacing both the Avro's and DC9's with new 70-100 seat planes in a below-mainline pay scale is the only way NW can stay solvent.

Furloughed employees will have first dibs on positions in the new airline.


If staying profitable screws the employees, thats a shame. It would be more a shame if NWA went under and no one had a job.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
AwysBSB
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sun Oct 02, 2005 10:11 am

It doesn’t seems prudent NWA create a brand new carrier based at DTW or MSP, whereas this corporation needs to strengthen its services to destinations of the Southeast by it self, and not by code-shares.
NWA Corp had better if its new airline was based at MEM or TPA and served not only destinations of the Southeastern USA, but of Mexico and Caribbean too.
 
apodino
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sun Oct 02, 2005 10:29 am

This sounds all to similar to USAirways with Midatlantic for the EMB-170 flying. And we all know how that turned out.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sun Oct 02, 2005 10:33 am

I smell Embraer. Anybody else?
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
ejmmsu
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sun Oct 02, 2005 10:46 am

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 21):
I smell Embraer. Anybody else?

I sure as heck hope so. If NW goes with CRJ-700/900 , i'll never fly them again  Smile
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
northwestair
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:20 pm

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 18):
Furloughed employees will have first dibs on positions in the new airline.

That was my idea when I sent my e-mail to Steenland. Just tell us that we will be paid this x amount of $ per hour and you can take it or leave it.
I don't care who you fly just as long as you fly
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:29 pm

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 22):
I sure as heck hope so. If NW goes with CRJ-700/900 , i'll never fly them again

The biggest thing Bombardier has to offer is the CRJ-900, which can somewhat comfortably seat 90 passengers. Embraer on the short end has the 170 which can comfortably seat 70, all the way up to the 195 which can seat 118 (according to Embraer's website). 118...suitable replacement for (oh not this again...) WHEN WILL NW REPLACE THE DC-9? (yes, I went there). If NW was really going to make a completely new airline, would it not be smart to begin phasing out the 9ers in favor of the Embraer family? Because they aren't using mainline, NW could (and probably would) use a lower payscale, such that the costs of leasing the aircraft would be somewhat absorbed in the lower payscale.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
FlyGuyDTW
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:53 pm

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 18):
Furloughed employees will have first dibs on positions in the new airline.

Well I am a recently furloughed AGAIN flight attendant for NW and it has been said we will not have first dibs on those jobs. The Scab Flight Attendants hired to replace us in the Mechanic strike have been told they have first dibs on the jobs so we are screwed.

Northwest honestly needs a management change that can pursue better business plans which include employee relations because I don't see anything but stabbing in the back going on here. Recall a flight attnedant in late Aug from 4 years of furlough and they uproot their lives to do what they love and move back and then one month later told they are getting furloughed again after just giving it all up again. Northwest has no remorse.
 
LUVRSW
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:02 pm

Quoting FlyGuyDTW (Reply 25):
Recall a flight attnedant in late Aug from 4 years of furlough and they uproot their lives to do what they love and move back and then one month later told they are getting furloughed again after just giving it all up again. Northwest has no remorse.

Sorry to hear that Fly Guy...that really does suck.
 
Braniff727
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:06 am

Quoting FlyGuyDTW (Reply 25):
The Scab Flight Attendants hired to replace us in the Mechanic strike have been told they have first dibs on the jobs so we are screwed.

Well if the PFAA got its poop together, the would work with ALPA and the IAM to secure a contract to ensure their members are hired by "newco" with rights to roll up back into NWA when the need arises to hire.

If this agreement was in place, NWA would almost never have to hire again, only at the "newco" level. I know that there are a ton of flight attendants that would have rather worked at "newco" than be furloughed again.
Climbing
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:20 am

Quoting Sunking737 (Reply 4):
Just another way for the RED TAILED SHARK to take another bite out of the employees pay.

Well that is correct in saying "Red Tailed Shark" since a Red tailed shark is technically a type of catfish, which is a bottom feeder. Northwest has seemed to do a lot of bottom feeding lately
 
nwafflyer
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:26 am

I've heard also that NW wants to take all employees out of non-Hub or Focus City operations, and fill all those slots with 3rd party personnel
 
bobnwa
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:58 am

Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 29):
I've heard also that NW wants to take all employees out of non-Hub or Focus City operations, and fill all those slots with 3rd party personnel

Where have you heard that, other than a rumor on this board?
 
m404
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:25 am

Bobnwa

Go to IAM district 143 website and read "company Openers"

First Page First Para

Amend Article "C to expressly recognize the Company's right to subcontract work for economic reasons

Next line

Amend to add para d .of A 35 side letter (right to subcontract new stations with 6 or less NW jet flight) to apply to existing stations

Amend to eliminate RJ85 layoff protection agreement

Amend to expand four-hour rule to include all gateway, A, B, and C stations.

Amend to delete percent part-time rule and allow split shifts.

Amend to delete side letter requiring one full time ESE in any station where part-time ESEs are employed.

Read all section D ref hours worked ands scheduling

On Company proposal dated Sept 26 inc. with letter from VP Labor Relations to Robert DePace Pres./Dir. Gen Chair IAM Dist 143

IAM job Security/LPP/scope Provisions

Amend to delete in their entirety Job Security Covenants contained in the following Letters of Agreement
COFPS, ESSC, Plant Protection, Flight Simulator Techs.

Labor Protective Provision

Amend to delete Sections 1,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11 and 12 of the following LPPs Letters of Agreement
COPFS, ESSC, Plant Protection, Simulator Techs.


Qoute from Mr, DePace in Pioneer Press article.

"They're looking at maybe farming out all our work outside the hubs"

In IAM Labor Target dated 9/26/05 in letter from VP Labor Relations

Under Restructuring / Outsourcing / Automation

ESE at spokes and gateways
CSE at spokes
Cargo/Food Dock
Global Reservations integration (outsourcing?)
Stock clerk outsourcing

Plus all the statements on the press about elimination of Ground workers at Spoke stations seems to make it pretty clear what NWs intentions are. What can be salvaged under an end of November deadline after 3 years of negotiations is dubious at best.
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
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coronado
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:59 am

How about if the pilots and flight attendandts propose a hybrid pay scale in exchange for NWA picking up a bunch of E170-195 --the lower fuel burn is a major plus and may allow nwa to survive as they focus on serving their smaller population heartland markets. Offer to work a few more hours per month so that the increased productivity makes sense to the bean counters. Beats being without a job.
The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
 
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ODwyerPW
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Mon Oct 03, 2005 11:10 am

yeah,
but does anybody know what NorthWest will replace it's DC-9's with?

ok,
that was just a joke. couldn't pass up the opportunity to flog the deceased equine.
learning never stops.
 
FlyGuyDTW
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:57 pm

Quoting M404 (Reply 5):
They want to start another carrier to replace the Mesaba AVROs with new 2nd gen RJs of 70-100 seats and make sure they are not flown by mainline crews. This would insure that they did not use mainline gates and ground handlers. This would also allow them to get rid of any mainline personnel that might be at some stations they went into. They want mainline pilots to forgo the scope clause upwards. Probably to 100 or above only. The pilots likely have until the end of November to decide to honor that or have their contract abrogated by the BK judge which they have already reportedly readied the paperwork.

The IAM personnel were given the same kind of deal. Sign off all scope, job security, part time, classification, and full rights to subcontract all IAM jobs. Or else.

Seems they also want to change the job scope of the flight attendants so that they don't fly on the planes with 100 seats or less. They are wanting to outsource all positions to regionals for smaller wages and no benefits.
 
FlyGuyDTW
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:04 pm

Also NW wants to give all of the flight attendant positions on all Pacific routes including all of them to and from the US to Foreign Nationals and cut the number of mainline flight attendants by over 5,000. Yet another company going to Asia for cheaper labor.
 
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Plan

Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:26 am

NW has to do major changes to improve efficiency, but I'm not sure "another airline" is really the right long term fix.

Here is what I see as NW's issues (all related to CASM):
1. Daily block hours (turn times, etc.)
2. Crew utilization. Ok, where are the electronic forms so that pilots can go home after their shift? If pilots can fly 10% more hours while working the same workday, they probably would be willing to go forward with an 8% pay cut. Also, pilots, f/a's, etc. would have to do "light cleaning," etc.
3. Fuel consumption. NW just will not have a competitive CASM without getting fuel costs down. Then again, viva el DC-9!  bigthumbsup 
4. Point to point. While NW is strong at their hubs, they have to accept that passengers prefer to save time by going non-stop. Hopefully new aircraft will allow more "hub bypass."
5. Cut back on the CRJ's. They're the potato chips of the airline industry; everyone had too many and now its time to trim down a bit. There are markets appropriate for RJ's, but not in the quantity NW (and others) own them in. They're just not there on CASM, customer preference (comfort), etc.

NW has many strengths, so I hope to see them survive. I just see it as a better long term move to have the 70 to 100 operated by mainline at negotiated lower rates and with *major* work rule changes that allow more efficient utilization of the aircraft. Thus a pilot at NW would come in from the RJ's and then fly on a 70 seater for a few years. Shortly the pilot would move up to a 100 seater, then the A319, etc.

Some people on this board might be surprised I'm making this suggestion. Here's why: if you leave nothing on the table, no one will do business with you next time.

Quoting Web (Reply 2):
I think this would work well. By doing it, NW eliminates disputes over who flies the (hopefully) soon-to-come 70-100 seaters.

This is a valid point.

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 21):
I smell Embraer. Anybody else?

I hope! One of these days I need to take a trip just to try one out. Alas, with the majority of the Ejets being focused on the "other coast," it might be a year or two from now.

Quoting Coronado (Reply 32):
How about if the pilots and flight attendandts propose a hybrid pay scale in exchange for NWA picking up a bunch of E170-195 --the lower fuel burn is a major plus and may allow nwa to survive as they focus on serving their smaller population heartland markets. Offer to work a few more hours per month so that the increased productivity makes sense to the bean counters. Beats being without a job.

Perhaps a more concise way of stating what I was discussing. Well said.

Quoting LUVRSW (Reply 36):
http://www.amtonline.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=1854



Quote:
In past filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission, MAIR Holdings has warned that a Northwest bankruptcy could push Mesaba into bankruptcy, too.

ouch. But that is how the cookie crumbles.  Sad

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:34 am

Quoting Sunking737 (Reply 4):
Just another way for the RED TAILED SHARK to take another bite out of the employees pay.

It's the only way the evil "Red Tailed Shark" will be able to make new 100 seaters profitable. The pilot pay and seniority levels are simply too high to pay mainline to fly them.
 
m404
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RE: Northwest Wants A New Airline For Smaller Planes

Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:33 am

It's the only way the evil "Red Tailed Shark" will be able to make new 100 seaters profitable. The pilot pay and seniority levels are simply too high to pay mainline to fly them.

Are you saying this would be true irregardless of what ALPA had in mind for negotiations? At the very least I might be able to agree that this might be even more favorable to NWA who has doubled the amount wanted in "concessions"
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding