astuteman
Posts: 6341
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:11 pm

Another fascinating article in this week's FI.

French manufacturers have won a record share of 787 work.

Possibly most significant is Latecoere, (a major airbus Contractor) who will be Prime contractor for doors

Boeing view the use of such Airbus contractors as a guarantee of their capability.
Airbus view the Boeing contracts as an endorsement of its manufacturing skills.

Dowty supplying landing gear (so A380 has US landing gear, and 787 has French landing gear....fascinating, captain)

Thales providing electrical power conversion.
Michelin offering new "near zero growth" tyres for the programme.

Dassault Systems (also Airbus contractor) supplying product lifecycle software for 787 programme.
boaing said "no other aircraft manufacturer has developed an aircraft with such extensive use of this software.

Just think, one day Airbuses will be built in the USA, and Boeings will be built in France - what a wonderful world we A-netters live in.......

Enjoy
 
TaromA380
Posts: 275
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:35 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:54 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Thread starter):
one day Airbuses will be built in the USA, and Boeings will be built in France

That would resolve the strike problem: does Seattle goes on strike ? production moves on to Toulouse. Does the Toulousian workers threatening ? shift to Seattle for some time.  Big grin
 
User avatar
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:35 pm

Very sad news for NAV20 ...  Smile
 
cricket
Posts: 2068
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:23 pm

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:45 pm

All this goes to prove that aircraft manufacturing is not a localised industry anymore. For example, more than half the 787's avionics software is being done by HCL Technologies in India. Airbus (and suppliers) also outsource software work and other manufacturing processes. If B goes on strike, Europe will suffer too, same holds true for A in the sense that if A goes on strike, US firms will suffer too. The grotesque and misplaced sense of nationalism (in the guise of patriotism) shown by some members of this forum is disgusting - and news like this should make them eat their words - or maybe printouts of their words!
A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
 
boeingbus
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 12:37 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:47 pm

If Russia, India and China improve their aircraft manufacturing skills one day, maybe in 20 years you may see Airbus and Boeing merge. New players are more dynamic than the old... It's a matter of time where the East applies major pressure to the west.

It's globalization... you may not agree with this but its happening.  Smile
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
stall
Posts: 254
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:57 pm

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:50 pm

The 787 is doomed
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Just kidding  Smile
Flying is fun
 
georgiaame
Posts: 951
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:55 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:52 pm

If I am not mistaken, Airbus has an assembly plant of some sort here in Alabama. And I have heard said, Gallic honor not withstanding, the 380 is more American than French, and the 787 is less American than international. Go figure. Good reason for an A vs B war to be re-ignited on this web site.
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
fvtu134
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:11 pm

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:16 pm

Now what an interesting situation would be created if EADS and Thales were to merge, as has been suggested a few times. EADS would become a supplier for the 787.
I doubt Seattle would let that happen but hey... we can all have a laugh can we.
who decided that a Horizon should be HORIZONtal???
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:51 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Thread starter):
Another fascinating article in this week's FI.

French manufacturers have won a record share of 787 work.

Possibly most significant is Latecoere, (a major airbus Contractor) who will be Prime contractor for doors

Boeing view the use of such Airbus contractors as a guarantee of their capability.
Airbus view the Boeing contracts as an endorsement of its manufacturing skills.

Thales providing electrical power conversion.
Michelin offering new "near zero growth" tyres for the programme.

Dassault Systems (also Airbus contractor) supplying product lifecycle software for 787 programme.
boaing said "no other aircraft manufacturer has developed an aircraft with such extensive use of this software.

Just think, one day Airbuses will be built in the USA, and Boeings will be built in France - what a wonderful world we A-netters live in.......

Well, with Honda built in Ohio for the last several years, and Dodge being manufactured in Canada, is it any wonder?

However, one thing is certain: No military aircraft for the US will ever be built outside of the USA.
One Nation Under God
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:07 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 4):
If Russia, India and China improve their aircraft manufacturing skills one day, maybe in 20 years you may see Airbus and Boeing merge. New players are more dynamic than the old... It's a matter of time where the East applies major pressure to the west.

actually parts of the 787 is being developed in Russia... Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13762
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:47 am

It's all so the "buy national" arguments around the globe can be mitigated by B saying "well look how many jobs it would create if you bought the 787" methinks. I'm sure France makes great doors, but something tells me it's not the least expensive option, but the politically best one.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
slider
Posts: 6806
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:09 am

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 6):
Good reason for an A vs B war to be re-ignited on this web site.

Yeah, God knows it's been about, oh, 5 minutes, since the last A vs B thread and flame fest.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6341
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:06 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
but something tells me it's not the least expensive option

Interesting - which do you think is the least expensive?

The article indicates that a lot of the decisions were based on expertise......
 
stirling
Posts: 3897
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:00 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:18 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 8):
Well, with Honda built in Ohio for the last several years, and Dodge being manufactured in Canada, is it any wonder?

And Austria don't forget.....Dogde Minivans, Jeeps, and Right-Hand Drive Chrysler 300s for the UK market.

And your pretty Pontiac might have been made in Australia..

Localisation is a word with no meaning anymore.
Delete this User
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:28 am

Does this mean the die hard AvB people will have to have arguments with themselves now?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
MD95
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:27 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:45 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 8):
However, one thing is certain: No military aircraft for the US will ever be built outside of the USA.

Don't be so sure anymore. We are designing part of the JSF in Italy and a lot of foreigners are working here in LM Fort Worth.
dario
 
User avatar
glideslope
Posts: 1423
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 8:06 pm

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:52 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 4):
If Russia, India and China improve their aircraft manufacturing skills one day, maybe in 20 years you may see Airbus and Boeing merge. New players are more dynamic than the old... It's a matter of time where the East applies major pressure to the west.

A thought that has been repeated in my mind more and more...........
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9606
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:55 am

Quoting Astuteman (Thread starter):
Boeing view the use of such Airbus contractors as a guarantee of their capability.
Airbus view the Boeing contracts as an endorsement of its manufacturing skills.

I'm not quite sure what you mean there, but often times A and B along with the other B, E and L will go to whomever is best and cheapest at what they do. For example the company I work for pretty much makes every single APU found on any jet today simply because we are the best at what we do. I work on B's big project now, but do a lot of work with N-G's stuff and my job in the future could shift towards A. It all depends on what stage everyone is in development. Airplanes are a truly global business. If a French company is the best at making doors and can do it at a reasonable price, then of course everyone will go to them. There are a lot of parts on airplanes where there isn't any competition. One company has a good design and holds a monopoly on that part. This is a prime example of that. And with transportation as easy as it is nowadays, it should stay that way.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
GDB
Posts: 12653
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Tue Oct 04, 2005 5:03 am

'No miliitary aircraft for the US will ever be built outside of the USA.'

Er, where do you start with this?

Off the top of my head, Sherpa C-23, G-222, Caribou, That training/calibration version of the then BAe-125, T-3, if you include the Coast Guard; HH-65A Dauphin, That USCG version of the Falcon, CN-235.
These are not licenced built, they were imported.

OK, so no fast military jets?
Not quite, before the MDD/BAe AV-8B Harrier, the original AV-8A's were built by Hawkers at Kingston, UK.
Over 100 of them.
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:10 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 4):
If Russia, India and China improve their aircraft manufacturing skills one day, maybe in 20 years you may see Airbus and Boeing merge. New players are more dynamic than the old... It's a matter of time where the East applies major pressure to the west.

and that's probably exactly what will happen. Why will the Chinese and Russian aviation industries buy expensive A or B when their lower cost base aircraft facilities can do it at a fraction of the budget?

It's the Wal-Mart effect. You can't ignore their abilities to build or manufacture at such low cost. If China in particular decides to sink some of that $750 billion in US currency they hold into buying in expertise then they could easily outgun Airbus and Boeing together. Russian engine technology is where they could score big. Russian engines are starting to look like seriously good products again.

A Tu-204 built and financed by China could be an interesting product, or the smaller Tu-334 for regional work. And never say never...it could happen
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2517
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:13 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 8):
However, one thing is certain: No military aircraft for the US will ever be built outside of the USA.

What would life be without such certainties? Would you rate this the same certainty as Donald Rumsfeld not cross-dressing?
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
User avatar
glideslope
Posts: 1423
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 8:06 pm

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:31 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 20):
What would life be without such certainties? Would you rate this the same certainty as Donald Rumsfeld not cross-dressing?

I'd rate it the same as John Roberts Cross-Dressing.  Smile
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
Wiggidy
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:06 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:24 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 18):
OK, so no fast military jets?
Not quite, before the MDD/BAe AV-8B Harrier, the original AV-8A's were built by Hawkers at Kingston, UK.
Over 100 of them.

Damn you beat me to it  Smile. Also add the AS-350B for US border patrol. The USAF also had some B-57 Canberras, british designed not sure if they were a direct import or liscensed. Im sure theres a few more too.
-Wes
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:40 am

Some people would be surprised when they would know how many people in the USA are working for Airbus, and how many people in Europe are working for Boeing!

Arguments like:

1. "Boeing is the best because I am American and I have to support our economy"

and

2. Airbus is the best because I am European and I have to support our economy"

would be (ACTUALLY ARE) completely useless, moronic, and stupid!

Airbus created jobs in the USA, Boeing created jobs in Europe....

... so I can really not understand why these utterly childish - and posted by armchair CEOs - A vs. B discussions come up every second day. Furthermore I can't understand those who are participating in an A vs. B discussion and make additionally an Europe vs. USA thread about it.

I can't believe that some people are so obsessed to trash either all what is European, or all what is American.

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5810
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:45 am

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 23):
Some people would be surprised when they would know how many people in the USA are working for Airbus, and how many people in Europe are working for Boeing!

What you really mean to say is that, from one model to another, Airbus may choose supplier A, B, C, for a given part, and Boeing may choose from the same supplier pool for a similar part on their airliners. From one model to the other, that supplier (and its corresponding nationality) may vary. So in essence, Airbus and Boeing are using the same suppliers variously.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:48 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 8):
However, one thing is certain: No military aircraft for the US will ever be built outside of the USA.

Like the new Marine One? Sure, it will undergo final integration here. But it is designed and fabricated abroad.

N
 
Trolley Dolley
Posts: 548
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2000 1:57 pm

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:51 am

Ha ha ha! I read in in an Australian aviation magazine that a US congressman has pushed through a law that will require the "place of manufacture" to be placed on view to pax. They said (tongue in cheek) that the 787 might have to say something like, US designed, British powered and (thanks to the composite fuselage manufacture techniques) cooked in Japan.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13762
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:17 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 12):
Interesting - which do you think is the least expensive?

Probably something from South America or Asia, assuming they could supply the item on spec. Considering airworthy doors are made all over the world for all types of planes, who knows? I don't think France is any more or less advanced in that field, but the labor there is expensive, just like it is in Seattle and Long Beach.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
bhmbaglock
Posts: 2489
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:51 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:19 pm

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 6):
If I am not mistaken, Airbus has an assembly plant of some sort here in Alabama.

Not yet - maybe never, technically EADS not Airbus not that there is much difference. It will be built if they get the USAF tanker project. They are however moving forward with an engineering center in Mobile regardless. EADS does currently have a small facility in place for Coast Guard helicopter support.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 8):
Well, with Honda built in Ohio for the last several years,

Several decades in Ohio, several years in Alabama. They now have about a dozen NA assembly/engine factories.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13762
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:22 pm

And Toyota and BMW and Mercedes and Nissan all build cars and/or trucks in the US, from sea to shining sea.

VW used to in Pennsylvania, but no longer (ended with the rabbit). They build many US market cars in Mexico, though.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:31 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 17):
For example the company I work for pretty much makes every single APU found on any jet today simply because we are the best at what we do.

Which means you work for Honeywell, in which case I agree with you, or you work for Hamilton Sunstrand ex Solar in which case I do not agree with you, or you work for P&W Canada in which case all you've got is one pretty big one....which makes it more or less irrelevant in the big picture...

But seeing as you're in Rockford I'd choose door B.

How'm I doin?
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
GPHOTO
Posts: 799
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 11:44 pm

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:12 pm

Quoting Wiggidy (Reply 22):
The USAF also had some B-57 Canberras, british designed not sure if they were a direct import or liscensed.

These were built by Martin, who also developed their own variations. Not sure if some of the early ones were built in the UK, or shipped over as a kit of parts though. Anyone?

Best regards,

Jim
Erm, is this thing on?
 
astuteman
Posts: 6341
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:59 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 27):
Probably something from South America or Asia, assuming they could supply the item on spec. Considering airworthy doors are made all over the world for all types of planes, who knows? I don't think France is any more or less advanced in that field, but the labor there is expensive, just like it is in Seattle and Long Beach.

I think that's a pretty fair comment, Ikramerica. As I say, the article indicated that Boeing saw a preferred expertise.
Like you, I suspect it's the sort of expertise that many more developing countries are rapidly acquiring......

Quoting Astuteman (Thread starter):
so A380 has US landing gear, and 787 has French landing gear....fascinating, captain)

Erratum - another article in the FI talks about Goodrich, and their involvement in France, and Airbus. In fact Goodrich assemble the A380 landing gear actually on the Blagnac site at Toulouse, so A380 landing gear is not quite as American as I initially thought (most of the components probaly are, though....)
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13366
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:20 pm

Quoting FVTu134 (Reply 7):
I doubt Seattle would let that happen but hey...

Why not? Boeing already builds the wing-tip fences for the A380.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
GDB
Posts: 12653
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:51 am

I think all US B-57 production was local, they might have got the odd UK one though, for evaluation if nothing else.
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:58 am

Quoting GPHOTO (Reply 31):
These were built by Martin, who also developed their own variations. Not sure if some of the early ones were built in the UK, or shipped over as a kit of parts though. Anyone

Don't forget the AV8B Harrier and the T-45....British designs all.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:13 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 29):
nd Toyota and BMW and Mercedes and Nissan all build cars and/or trucks in the US, from sea to shining sea.

VW used to in Pennsylvania, but no longer (ended with the rabbit). They build many US market cars in Mexico, though.

Raises the question....with the success of such things, what does that do to the argument that the US labor force is overpriced/noncompetitive?

And if the answer is "it's cost competitive and efficient when properly managed" then you gotta ask "OK, who screwed up?" and "Why doesn't Dell understand this?"

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 32):
Erratum - another article in the FI talks about Goodrich, and their involvement in France, and Airbus. In fact Goodrich assemble the A380 landing gear actually on the Blagnac site at Toulouse, so A380 landing gear is not quite as American as I initially thought (most of the components probaly are, though....)

Goodrich acquired what was Cleveland Pneumatics a few years ago....they have an interesting website that shows their manufacturing facilities....my guess is that the sign on the box would say "Born in Cleveland-dressed in France"

http://www.lgd.goodrich.com/products/

When I worked for Delavan (now the Turbine Fuel Technologies division) they'd landed the fuel manifolding for the Trent 900....and were very pleased about it. They're a first class design and manufacturing house.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
astuteman
Posts: 6341
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:25 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 35):
Don't forget the AV8B Harrier and the T-45....British designs all.

Ah, the Harrier - an absolute classic. Another masterpiece that's taken 40+ years to be superceded (by JSF, I presume..)
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9606
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:54 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 30):
How'm I doin?

Pretty good. But I stupidly typed APU when I meant RAT (Ram Air Turbine). Hamilton Sundstrand does make APUs for many jets (somewhere around 25-50% market share for currently built jets), but if you look up the product list, HS RATs are very commonly used and are on most jets out there (more so than Honeywell at least).
http://www.hamiltonsundstrand.com/hs.../1,4490,CLI1_DIV22_ETI2938,00.html

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 36):
Raises the question....with the success of such things, what does that do to the argument that the US labor force is overpriced/noncompetitive?

If the US government creates an import tarrifs high enough, then everything sold in the United States would be manufactured here, which doesn't say anything about US labor force competitiveness. Tarrifs are a major reason those cars are made in the United States. Do any of these foreign manufacturers export their products from the United States?
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
terryb99
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 3:35 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:21 am

Quoting Astuteman (Thread starter):
Dowty supplying landing gear (so A380 has US landing gear, and 787 has French landing gear....fascinating, captain)

Or more acurate, the 380 has a North American landing gear, as most work will be done in the Toronto area.
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:50 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 38):
If the US government creates an import tarrifs high enough, then everything sold in the United States would be manufactured here, which doesn't say anything about US labor force competitiveness. Tarrifs are a major reason those cars are made in the United States. Do any of these foreign manufacturers export their products from the United States?

Far's I know they do....export some Honda vehicles to Japan...so I've heard...

The import duty the US imposes is 2.5 per cent ad valorem on imported automobiles...On a $10,000 Kia that would be $250....certainly significant but not determinative of the outcome.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
glacote
Posts: 357
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 1:44 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:04 pm

Quoting FVTu134 (Reply 7):
EADS would become a supplier for the 787.
I doubt Seattle would let that happen but hey... we can all have a laugh can we.

I believe the winglets mounted on A340 are manufactured by a sub-branch of Boeing.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 33):
Why not? Boeing already builds the wing-tip fences for the A380.

Yet another example.
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:24 pm

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:04 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 36):
Raises the question....with the success of such things, what does that do to the argument that the US labor force is overpriced/noncompetitive?

Perhaps because the foreign automakers a) don't have a huge legacy of retired workers generous pensions and retirement benefits to pay for b) don't have unionized shops c) and have set up shop in some of the lower cost areas of the country so their workers don't need to be paid as much.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
bhmbaglock
Posts: 2489
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:51 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:02 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 38):
Do any of these foreign manufacturers export their products from the United States?

All Mercedes M Class and R Class production is in Tuscaloosa, AL. Before the plant expanded there was some M Class production in Austria but this ended years ago.

Total auto exports from AL were over $2B in 2003 but I think this may have dropped off a bit due to the German economy.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5810
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:33 pm

Quoting Glacote (Reply 41):
I believe the winglets mounted on A340 are manufactured by a sub-branch of Boeing.

Is this true? Would this be DH/Boeing Australia, or some other division, perhaps?
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
eha
Posts: 209
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:35 pm

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:32 am

Quoting Glacote (Reply 41):
believe the winglets mounted on A340 are manufactured by a sub-branch of Boeing.

I thought they were built by HdH(Hawker De Havilland) and delivered to Airbus UK-Broughton (at least for the -500, -600 models)....

E.
 
robsawatsky
Posts: 477
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:07 am

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:16 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 38):
Tarrifs are a major reason those cars are made in the United States. Do any of these foreign manufacturers export their products from the United States?

There are several reasons, but generally not existing tariffs:

1. Politics (i.e. way to avoid import tariffs being increased)

2. Low-cost labour, particularly in southern US states (non-union plants, combined with tax incentives, etc) Japan is certainly not low-cost labour anymore and neither is Europe.

3. A lot of the foreign-branded models are unique North American designs or heavily modified North American market specific versions that make little sense to manufacture overseas (Europe or Japan, Korea is still a bit of a different story but even Korean manufacturers are transplanting to NA).

I find it interesting that some Americans think it somehow a recent phenomenon that US branded autos and major parts are made in Canada when it has been happening for decades. Perhaps the more recent increase in Mexican assembled vehicles has raised awareness and/or protectionist attitudes.

I though the French 787 contribution might spawn more hostile reaction that it has given "Freedom Fries" and the like over the Iraq situation. But, maybe people are actually realizing that the truth and history behind such "patriotism" minded outbursts is rather more complex (and deceptive, double-speak, etc) than originally perceived.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6341
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: French Win Record Share Of 787 Programme

Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:22 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 42):
a) don't have a huge legacy of retired workers generous pensions and retirement benefits to pay for b) don't have unionized shops

My greatest experience of US manufacturing costs is from working with General Dynamics Electric Boat in Conneticut on the US nuclear subs.
At the risk of incurring a libel case, one of their facilities is incredibly expensive (far more so than its equivalent in the UK - the Barrow shipyard), but the other is newer, and an order of magnitude more efficient than the first (comparable to Barrow).

Your 2 points just about sum up the difference.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: An767, AVENSAB727, babastud, Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], blockski, Boof02671, CM767, Gemuser, Hamlet69, ltbewr, malcolmtucker, mattDC5R, MrBuzzcut, n515cr, PSU.DTW.SCE, raedgar, rafox, withak and 365 guests