scandinavian
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2000 2:19 am

Pictures Of New Finnair Business Class Seats.

Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:15 pm

I found some new pictures of the new Finnair C-class seats. The installations will begin in November this year and be completed in February 2006.

The seat pitch will increase from the presently 127 centimeters (50 inches) to 160 centimeters (63 inches).

You can find the pictures here:

http://www01.finnair.com/faye/photobank/index1.asp?images=inflight
"He was a wise man who invented beer"-Platon
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Pictures Of New Finnair Business Class Seats.

Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:32 pm

looks very nice - just a shame that they try to pass it off as a "lie flat" bed which is clearly a flatout lie ( dreadful pun I know ) - so far as I know there are only three airlines with actual flat beds in business class BA,VS and NZ .
( as always please feel free to add to the list if you are better informed than I am and know of other airlines with true flat beds)

Please note that I am not specifically criticising AY - they are only the latest in a long list of airlines who seem to have difficulty understanding the phrase "lie flat" - as a former travel agent I can recall having a heated argument with an SQ rep after one of my clients returned , very pissed off , from an AKL-SIN-LHR return trip specifically booked on SQ because their promotional material stated "lie flat" only to find that of course it was angled and that they kept being woken up as they slid down the slope . I was actually told by the rep that ' of course "lie flat" doesn't mean that the bed is flat - if it was flat we would call it a "true flat bed" ' - you can imagine the fun I had explaining that to my client !


Anyway as I say , it looks like a great product and hope to try it some day - but shame on AY for joining the list of airlines with misleading promotional info.
 
scandinavian
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2000 2:19 am

RE: Pictures Of New Finnair Business Class Seats.

Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:43 pm

I know what you are talking about. SAS will also install new seats later this year, and guess what? No real lie flat seats, but as you described "flatout lie". That's the trend today...
"He was a wise man who invented beer"-Platon
 
willyj
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:04 am

RE: Pictures Of New Finnair Business Class Seats.

Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:49 am

Kiwiandrew, South African Airways also has flat seats in business... in fact they were voted number one in the world by skytrax.

As far as lie-flat seats go, I think the wording is correct. The seat is flat (or very close to being 180 degrees) but is just at an angle. I've flown on several versions of these seats and while they are not truly flat beds, one is able to lie on their side or stomach quite comfortably. Yes, sliding can be a problem, but I find that if you don't fully extend the seat you don't slide as much - if at all. Most 3 class airlines don't want to offer a fully flat seat in Business when they offer one in First - British airways being the exception, but even then half of the seats face backwards.

Being a travel agent I think that it is your job to tell your clients what to expect onboard. Anyone can book a ticket online, but travel agents should provide a higher level of service and be able to warn their clients that lie-flat is not totally horizontal, etc. before the flight - especially when there are only a handful of truly flat business class seats in the world. Not judging you in any way, but I don't think the fault lies with the SQ rep in this particular case...
 
killjoy
Posts: 601
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 1999 6:00 am

RE: Pictures Of New Finnair Business Class Seats.

Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:54 am

I agree that deceptive advertising is appalling anywhere, but I'm not quite sure I see the problem here. "Flat" doesn't strictly mean against the ground, but against a surface. I see no reason to assume that a "lie flat" seat would be completely horizontal, especially in a cramped environment.

Of course, if the term "lie flat" has traditionally referred to bed-style seats, whoever first extended it to cover angled seats is indeed guilty of misleading the customer, but by now everyone seems to be using it, so its definition would've changed.

Edit: Damn, beaten by a few minutes  Smile .

[Edited 2005-10-03 17:56:25]
 
Trvlr
Posts: 4251
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:58 am

RE: Pictures Of New Finnair Business Class Seats.

Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:55 am

Shame the seats aren't horizontal. Still, the cabin update will provide more of an interesting option for oneworld flyers like myself who don't have that many choices in Europe.

Aaron G.
 
A360
Posts: 426
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:41 pm

RE: Pictures Of New Finnair Business Class Seats.

Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:20 am

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 1):
( as always please feel free to add to the list if you are better informed than I am and know of other airlines with true flat beds)

I think that the new IB business class seats are also true flat beds.
 
willyj
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:04 am

RE: Pictures Of New Finnair Business Class Seats.

Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:24 am

Quoting A360 (Reply 6):
I think that the new IB business class seats are also true flat beds.

No, Iberia's are also lie-flat.
 
Lp0815
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:16 pm

RE: Pictures Of New Finnair Business Class Seats.

Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:37 pm

There is a point in labeling these seats "lie-flat" seats in the sense that you actually stretch your body out fully.

Compare the position you sleep in to the one that you had to sleep in in the old cradle style seats:  zzz 

Cradle seats: your body lies in an angled position
Lie-flat: your body stretches out completely, yet the seat stretches out fully though still angled compared to the floor of the a/c.

Granted: Lie-Flat is misleading as the common pax would expect his seat to be a bed parallel to the floor.
But compare the seats to the older ones; then the differentiation and the reason for the "lie-flat" label becomes clear.  idea 
Time waits for nobody
 
andz
Posts: 7628
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:49 pm

RE: Pictures Of New Finnair Business Class Seats.

Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:00 pm

The issue here is not if a seat is "lie flat" but "lie level". The seats are flat in that there is no bend or angle in the seat, but they are not level as SAA's are.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Pictures Of New Finnair Business Class Seats.

Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:55 pm

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 4):
I agree that deceptive advertising is appalling anywhere, but I'm not quite sure I see the problem here. "Flat" doesn't strictly mean against the ground, but against a surface. I see no reason to assume that a "lie flat" seat would be completely horizontal, especially in a cramped environment.

so by your definition a hill is "flat" so long as the gradient is straight - I certainly wouldn't want to go for a bike ride with you then  Wink

seriously though the question I think is not what A-netters expectations of "lie-flat" is - after all we are generally better informed than the average member of the travelling public , but what the ordinary consumers expectations are - trust me , having been a travel agent in an English speaking country the vast majority of the English speaking public take "lie-flat" to mean "horizontal" and of course they tend to blame the travel agent rather than the airline when that expectation is not met - if you dont believe me I challenge you to find 10 non-aviation people , preferably with English as a mother tongue , and ask them what they would expect when an airline claims to provide a lie-flat bed in business class
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13807
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Pictures Of New Finnair Business Class Seats.

Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:31 pm

Quoting Lp0815 (Reply 8):
Cradle seats: your body lies in an angled position

Not really. Very few airlines have/had cradle seats. BA had them. A cradle seat is like a recliner chair in that it RAISES the thigh while it reclines the back, creating a cradle that you naturally rest into. Since you are not fighting gravity with your clothes or your feet, you can relax your body. It is one of the most comfortable sleeping positions known, but few airlines had them.

You can't just add a footrest and a reclining back to a seat and have it be a cradle. You must also add a tilt...

For example: The CO 757 BF seat cradles a bit, the 767 does not at all, and the 777 seat does but only to a very mild back angle (not enough for sleep for most people), then it de-cradles by dropping the thigh lower and raising the butt, and attempts to slope-flat at 170 degrees, which isn't really comfortable.

Most C and old F products had a reclining back and a foot rest, but no tilt. But if the seat surface remains level, it is NOT a cradle. And you experience sliding just like a slope-flat, as gravity is not nullified by a foot rest. Slope-flat only makes this worse by tilting your pelvis the wrong direction...

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 10):
so by your definition a hill is "flat" so long as the gradient is straight - I certainly wouldn't want to go for a bike ride with you then

exactly. I hear that they've found a way to fit 1000 lie flat seats in the new A380. They just installed a lot of vertical surfaces and straps, and if you stand against them and strap yourself in, voila, you are "lying flat" baby!

I hate the slope flat concept, as I don't enjoy wedgies and my feet get sore supporting my body weight for hours.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
killjoy
Posts: 601
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 1999 6:00 am

RE: Pictures Of New Finnair Business Class Seats.

Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:09 pm

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 10):
so by your definition a hill is "flat" so long as the gradient is straight - I certainly wouldn't want to go for a bike ride with you then

Well, a hill is a protrusion in itself, so calling it flat would make no sense. But a lie flat seat *is* flat.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 11):
exactly. I hear that they've found a way to fit 1000 lie flat seats in the new A380. They just installed a lot of vertical surfaces and straps, and if you stand against them and strap yourself in, voila, you are "lying flat" baby!

You'd still be standing against a flat surface, though, so the problematic word would be "lie", not "flat".

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 10):
trust me , having been a travel agent in an English speaking country the vast majority of the English speaking public take "lie-flat" to mean "horizontal"

I can't argue with that. If people keep misunderstanding it, maybe it should be changed. I still wouldn't blame any single airline, however, since they'll need to call it the same thing everyone else does, or people will be even more confused.
 
zeekiel
Posts: 398
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:59 am

RE: Pictures Of New Finnair Business Class Seats.

Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:36 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 11):
It is one of the most comfortable sleeping positions known, but few airlines had them.

Apart from sleeping in the horizontal position which is very comfortable or natural, the cradle or Z configuration of sleeping is bloody brilliant. I find that more comfortable than letting the bed into a "angled flat". Usually I will try and find a seat setting or manhandle the seat into a near cradle setting.

I think CX has a cradle setting on their J seats. Although I'm not entirely sure I got it right when the F/A was explaining it to me.

The AY uniforms look great as well and so do those Finnish girls.  Smile

Cheers

Zeekiel
Bring back the New Zealand Air Combat Force
 
FinnWings
Posts: 633
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 6:03 am

RE: Pictures Of New Finnair Business Class Seats.

Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:31 am

I tested the new AY seats yesterday and those were extremely comfortable. Lie-flat or not, but I would say it is definitely easier to sleep on those seats than my couch, even it is pure "lie-flat" indeed...  faint 

Best Regards,
FinnWings
 
A360
Posts: 426
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:41 pm

RE: Pictures Of New Finnair Business Class Seats.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:38 am

Quoting Willyj (Reply 7):
No, Iberia's are also lie-flat.

Allow me to disagree on that. Iberia's new Business plus (new business class) seats are flat and horizontal.

Just check www.iberia.com.
Choose English in language (next to coutry) ---> Travel with us -->Seats --> Get to know new Iberia Business Plus ---> Your personal space -->More Space...then check the resting position.... Isn't that horizontal?!
 
willyj
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:04 am

RE: Pictures Of New Finnair Business Class Seats.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:49 am

Quoting A360 (Reply 15):
Allow me to disagree on that. Iberia's new Business plus (new business class) seats are flat and horizontal.

Just check www.iberia.com.
Choose English in language (next to coutry) ---> Travel with us -->Seats --> Get to know new Iberia Business Plus ---> Your personal space -->More Space...then check the resting position.... Isn't that horizontal?!

I stand corrected. I thought they were at an angle but I'm glad to see they are not! For some reason Iberia looks more snug than the SAA seats. The space between rows doesn't look like they could be totally flat, but the diagram looks like it is, and flatseats.com confirms they are flat bed style seats. Also, Royal Jordanian has flat bed seats.
 
willyj
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:04 am

RE: Pictures Of New Finnair Business Class Seats.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:07 am

Actually, no. In the diagram it says that the space between seats is 152 centimeters - 60 inches. It also says the bed is 190 centimeters long (about 75 inches). Therefore the seat just can't be completely flat. It must be angled to be able to make space for the extra 15 inches of bed, right?
 
nijltje
Posts: 231
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 5:26 pm

RE: Pictures Of New Finnair Business Class Seats.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:49 am

The Finnair truck with the business seats was in Zaventem city(BRU) a few weeks ago... anyone from Belgium entered it?
 
User avatar
Flying Belgian
Posts: 1908
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 12:45 am

RE: Pictures Of New Finnair Business Class Seats.

Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:26 am

The new AY long-haul product looks rather attractive.

I've seen pics of them in their Chinese speaking inflight magazine. Really nice one !

GO AY MD-11s !!!
FB.
Life is great at 41.000 feet...
 
A360
Posts: 426
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:41 pm

RE: Pictures Of New Finnair Business Class Seats.

Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:43 am

Quoting Willyj (Reply 17):
Actually, no. In the diagram it says that the space between seats is 152 centimeters - 60 inches. It also says the bed is 190 centimeters long (about 75 inches). Therefore the seat just can't be completely flat. It must be angled to be able to make space for the extra 15 inches of bed, right?

You have to remember that when in bed position, the bed have it's bottom part(where the feet lies) under the front seat upper part(where the head lies).
So the bed is bigger than the space between seats.  Wink
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Pictures Of New Finnair Business Class Seats.

Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:47 am

Quoting A360 (Reply 20):
Quoting Willyj (Reply 17):
Actually, no. In the diagram it says that the space between seats is 152 centimeters - 60 inches. It also says the bed is 190 centimeters long (about 75 inches). Therefore the seat just can't be completely flat. It must be angled to be able to make space for the extra 15 inches of bed, right?

You have to remember that when in bed position, the bed have it's bottom part(where the feet lies) under the front seat upper part(where the head lies).
So the bed is bigger than the space between seats.

So you are saying that the feet are lower than the head - in other words its NOT flat .
 
willyj
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:04 am

RE: Pictures Of New Finnair Business Class Seats.

Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:51 am

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 21):
So you are saying that the feet are lower than the head - in other words its NOT flat .

Thank you for that. Has anyone actually flown on the new seats? judging from the numbers Iberia provides, the bed is lie-flat, but judging from the diagrams, etc the bed is full flat. Personally I tend to believe the actual numbers...
 
A360
Posts: 426
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:41 pm

RE: Pictures Of New Finnair Business Class Seats.

Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:53 am

^You're right on that!  Wink

We need someone that has already seen the new iberia business class in here!!
 
User avatar
Vasu
Posts: 2952
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RE: Pictures Of New Finnair Business Class Seats.

Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:13 am

Very interesting... do many other airlines have these "corporate photo galleries" on their websites?

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