cambrian
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Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Mon Oct 03, 2005 11:56 pm

I had an email from Swiss today. They are going to relaunch LX operated flights between LHR and GVA- on Saturdays only(!). It is "replacing" the Sion route which will not operate this winter, frequencies as follows:

Day From To Depart Arrive
Saturday London Heathrow Geneva 12.50 15.35
Saturday London Heathrow Geneva 18.10 20.50
Saturday Geneva London Heathrow 11.20 12.10
Saturday Geneva London Heathrow 16.35 17.25


This is not going to make much difference to regular travellers on this route. I can only assume that this is an interim measure until Swiss can acquire the slots to resume multiple daily frequencies on this important route.

Now that the BA codeshare is over, the lack of LX flights on this route leaves a massive hole in its network. Let's hope to see this route reinstated to its former frequency.
 
gkirk
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Mon Oct 03, 2005 11:58 pm

Quite possibly winter only ski charter flights?
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
RJ100
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:00 am

Maybe they just don't want to do ferry flights to/from Sion which is expensive. So they fly the passengers to GVA and bus them to SIR.

Regards,
RJ100
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cambrian
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:07 am

I interpreted the mail as LX getting its toe back in the water as far as GVA is concerned, and also a way of putting a positive spin on the end of the SIR flights. They never operated a twice-daily SIR service anyway, did they?
 
legacy135
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:01 am

So we see another Swiss destination disappearing on the route map for ever..... after LUG (remains with code share only) and BRN they wont fly to SIR either anymore. I thought this was a "National Airline" paid by tax money of all cantons. It shows now more and more to be a "Zürich Intl Air Lines" as BSL will disappear probably as well.
It's a shame for our national airline business, but hopefully a chance for some new operators.
 
cambrian
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:06 am

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 4):
So we see another Swiss destination disappearing on the route map for ever.

Yes, it is ironic, as only last week on the Swiss website, in the "Your Switzerland" section, I was reading about Sion, and it was described an important transport hub, with an international airport...
 
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PipoA380
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:09 am

From when? I am in London and flying home to GVA on Saturday! It's a pain in the @ss to go through ZRH...
It's not about AIRBUS. it's not about BOEING. It's all about the beauty of FLYING.
 
legacy135
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:43 am

Quoting PipoA380 (Reply 6):
From when? I am in London and flying home to GVA on Saturday! It's a pain in the @ss to go through ZRH...

That's what they made with our tax money to create "our" airline:

GVA and BSL are now mainly served by EasyJet and other foreign companies
LUG gets the local Darwin and from GVA FlyBaboo
BRN gets Darwin and LH
SIR gets....??? in the summer some AirGlaciers Charters and in winter probably FlyBE

But all over it the regional airports like LUG, BRN and SIR as the other national airports as GVA and BSL as their bigger regions are the big loosers in this game. Swiss Intl. is not only concentrating on one hub (which seems logic) they also cut all the feeder flights and the few direct routes from the other Swiss airports (what is not at all logic).
They probably think that by doing so clients will take their flights out of ZRH, but this conclusion is wrong. I only know the situation in BRN but can imagine it quite similar at all the other airports. BRN is at the moment highly interesting for other big carriers and the possibility to see companies as AF, BA or Austrian serving it in the near future are better than ever. I sincerely hope that all other Swiss airports get good services from foreign companies which back up the move away from our former national airline.
 
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PipoA380
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:54 am

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 7):

Unique Airport,
Unique Airline!

It's a pain to tranfer in ZRH. I had no choice, I reserved flights in July for Sept 11th GVA-LHR and Oct 8th LHR-GVA. Now they told me in GVA when checking in that my return flight has been changed. How great. Now it's LHR-ZRH ZRH-GVA. Oh well if it was ZRH-GVA on a Swissair B743, I woudn't have said no! But I had no choice.

BA broke their code share agreement with LX as they are joining Star Alliance. That from Sept. 16th on... Now what? Will Geneva get any flights from Heathrow?

When will these flights be started?
It's not about AIRBUS. it's not about BOEING. It's all about the beauty of FLYING.
 
legacy135
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:03 am

Quoting PipoA380 (Reply 8):
Unique Airport,
Unique Airline!

There are no better words to name it! I think it's big shame that a national airline is not even capable to link two cities as important as London and Geneva together. I think it's hard to find another city around that hosts as many international organizations as Geneva! I remember standing on the apron at GVA and looking at Swissair 747's and DC-10's flying out to the whole world....
Going trough ZRH you may have at least this big pleasure to ride this superfast-cabelcar called a train and all this for free Big grin

I think times for LX will become much harder, specially as they gave up such important airports as GVA and BSL. They are loosing big credibility from their local customers. I think you won't fly to London with them again either.

Take care and have a safe trip on ZRH Intl Air Lines  Wink

Cheers
Legacy135
 
RJ100
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:16 am

PipoA380: Sorry to hear that. Hopefully LX at least will pay for the massive airport taxes for your flights (probably something like 120 CHF)...


Legacy135:True. But I'm confident that even the smaller airports like LUG and BRN will have a positive future. Seems like Darwin is doing better and better. Good luck to all of them. And I'm sure that KLM, AF etc. are interested as well and they can offer worldwide connections.

I cannot wait to see the official SWISS announcement of the new twice weekly GVA-LHR service. It will be something like "SWISS again expands services to Geneva!!!" (completely forgetting that they have alone this year cut CDG, FCO, LIS with a total of 7 daily flights or so...).  Wink

Going back a few times daily on GVA-LHR is unlikely since

1)they have no slots
2)they dont have money to buy slots (and certainly not for such an unimportant city like GVA  Wink ) (This is ironic by the way...)
3)they will completely get smashed by BA and easy

RJ100
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HBIHLtoEZE
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:42 am

Quoting Cambrian (Thread starter):
There are no better words to name it! I think it's big shame that a national airline is not even capable to link two cities as important as London and Geneva together. I think it's hard to find another city around that hosts as many international organizations as Geneva!

While I absolutely agree that it was a shameful deed to sell the LHR slots to BA one should not forget that Swiss does link London with Geneva with four daily flights...ok, they are not from LHR, but LCY - if you are a biz traveller you probably have more advantages from there than to fly from Europe's biggest and notoriously unfriendly, chaotic airport...


Come on, if you bash LX you should also see that there is another side of the coin.
Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life.
 
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PipoA380
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:54 am

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 10):
PipoA380: Sorry to hear that. Hopefully LX at least will pay for the massive airport taxes for your flights (probably something like 120 CHF)...

I didn't pay anything more and would have refused to do so. They just changed my ticket, no charge except standing in line at the reservation desk for 10 minutes...

This code share was a mess:
I reserved the flight via the LX webpage. Arrived in GVA:

-Went to the Swiss counter, stood in line, they then told me to go to the BA counter.
-At BA counter, stood in line they told me to go to the Swiss reservation desk. Get my "e-ticket"
-Swiss reservation desk after standing in line gave me my "e ticket" that is like any normal ticket... I thought e meant electronic... not for Swiss! They annouced to me that my way back had been changed... told me to come back in 10 minutes
-Back to the BA counter, check-in and boarding pass.... finally!
-Back to the Swiss reservation desk get my new itinerary...

Operation time: 45 minutes to check in on 5 different counters! Thanks Swiss!

-
It's not about AIRBUS. it's not about BOEING. It's all about the beauty of FLYING.
 
legacy135
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:16 am

Quoting PipoA380 (Reply 12):
Operation time: 45 minutes to check in on 5 different counters! Thanks Swiss!

That's probably where their high cost structure results from, needing so much staff at the check in to handel one passenger Big grin

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 10):
Seems like Darwin is doing better and better

From what I got the week before, they are unfortunately flying in a hard competition on the LUG-GVA route with FlyBaboo. It seems that instead of cooperating they try to maneuver each other out of business. Which one of the two airlines is the motor for that I don't know, but they have low loads at ridiculously low yields on this segment.

What I know from BRN it starts to work now after some problems in the beginning. They always flew very reliable but with low loads. They adjust now the schedules and from the beginning on from the winter schedule they shall do LCY twice a day. The routing will be early morning LUG-BRN-LCY and back to BRN. In the evening it goes again BRN-LCY and back LCY-BRN-LUG.
For the winter period this flight will most probably be done by Skywork Airlines on an AMCI for Darwin, using SRK's Do328 HB-AES. So during the day the aircraft will be back at SRK's base in BRN. Darwin on the other side will use the capacity on it's SAAB 2000 on the LUG-ZRH run. What will unfortunately disappear now is the connection from BRN to FCO via LUG as the connections will not work anymore.

From spring 2006 on Darwin will get another SAAB 2000 and bring it back to the LUG-BRN-LCY route. This aircraft will as well rest in BRN over the day, but will be used on an intensive charter program for a local tour operator. They sold flights already for more than 2,7 mio. CHF

By the way, the former sales manager for BRN with Crossair is now with Darwin Big grin ............

................ and LX still wants to tell us that there was no market!

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 11):
Geneva with four daily flights...ok, they are not from LHR, but LCY

You are right, I did not think about this. But be thinking about they could have offered a seat on one of those runs to PipoA380 instead of this detour via ZRH.
 
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PipoA380
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:38 am

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 13):
offered a seat on one of those runs to PipoA380 instead of this detour via ZRH

I didn't ask if it was possible, I could've tried to negociate but I am here for work, and I work in Staines, 3 miles south of Heathrow Airport. With loads if luggage (for 1 month), I wanted to take a taxi from ant to the airport, that's why I chose LHR over LCY. I didn't want to take the bus, tube and then train with 30kg of luggage  Smile

But now I think about it, they said the flight changed, I did not let them any time to tell me anything, I told them I wanted it out of Heathrow, he said "of course". So... maybe there was a possibility.
It's not about AIRBUS. it's not about BOEING. It's all about the beauty of FLYING.
 
RJ100
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:02 am

Thanks for the informations!

I heard about the contract for Darwin from the tour operator. Well done. And the twice daily LCY flight will do better than the current midday flight- I am sure about that.

LUG-GVA is tough. I hope that one carrier is dropping the route in favour of the other. There are enough gaps left in Switzerland.

What do you think about a BRN-BRU service?

Cheers
none
 
legacy135
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:27 am

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 15):
What do you think about a BRN-BRU service?

BRN-BRU could be a lucrative route as there are frequently government employees using this flight as well. The problem on this flight is a little bit the lack of equipment. Crossair used to fly it with success for years, first with CPS Metro III then with their SF340's. As the plane disappeared the flight disappeared.... With an average load of 16 to 20 passengers a SAAB 2000 or similar is simply not profitable, even thought the yields were very good.

We had this unprofessional experience last year with German EAE starting BRU again with a Golden Air SF340 twice a day as also DUS twice daily. After six weeks only they were up to 16 pax average, then they cancelled from one day to the other as they could use the capacity in Germany. Such "Intermezzos" as also the one of Cirrus last winter with the DoJet on the BRN-THF and BRN-VIE are pure poison for the market. What you get to hear then from the customers is things like "Bern is unreliable..." It's not BRN, we unfortunately sometimes have to deal with very unprofessional operators. Intersky did BRN-THF and BRN-VIE quiet successful, but the flights were to long for the relatively slow Dash-8. They could use it more profitable on flights from FDH to destinations as Cologne, Prague, Venice etc as they could do 4 flights per plane/day versus the 3 flights/plane/day out of BRN. So they gave the flights over to Cirrus. Cirrus Started their runs on January 10th and cancelled on March 13th. In this period they had 41 (!!!) cancellations. The reasons: Copilot sick, APU unservicabel, Miss Captain does not know how to start APU etc. You can't imagine! Finally after they cancelled, the plane got right the day after a daily corporate shuttle between CIA and Coventry. What a coincidence!

You see, in BSL happened strange things the last two years, but in BRN also  Wink Anyhow, I think we are over the worst and it goes up again!

Cheers
Legacy135
 
RJ100
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:46 am

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 16):
Anyhow, I think we are over the worst and it goes up again!

That's for sure. And flyBe has some seasonal flights to BRN as well!

I hope that they will move into the SIR market as well after SWISS abandons that place.

Regards,
RJ100
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legacy135
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 5:03 am

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 17):
That's for sure. And flyBe has some seasonal flights to BRN as well!

Did you see the full programm? On Saturdays they are talking now about 5 RJ100's (3 FlyBE, 2 Titan) 4 Q400 (all FlyBE) and one F70 of Malev. Not to bad, if you consider that this winter about 70% of the British tourists goint to the "Oberland" by plane will come trough BRN. I just have my thoughts about how they will handle it: Between 11:05 and 11:50 alone we shall see 2 RJ100 and 2 Q400 making up a potential of over 320 inward and 320 outward passengers. If you consider that there is on scanner, one baggage belt maybe 7 meters long...... let's hope the best! At least staff and management are very motivated to handel this challenge.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 17):
I hope that they will move into the SIR market as well after SWISS abandons that place

They did it already and I hope they come back this winter as well. I was in SIR lately and could spot quite some nice brandnew equipement. So I guess they are preparing  Wink
 
gerardo
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:20 am

What? They scrap Sion? And I hoped to see Montevideo-Sion-Wladiwostok finally running!

Get serious, folks!!
dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
 
cambrian
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:02 am

Forgot to mention- the email said that the new service would start at the beginning of the Winter timetable- end of October.
 
saab2000
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:47 am

I hope I get to go back to fly in Switzerland again. I still miss it there! I check all the CH-threads here. Good luck to all the operators there. I still have a lot of friends at SWISS and at Darwin (Really bad name for an airline).
smrtrthnu
 
runway23
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:54 am

Quoting Cambrian (Reply 20):
Forgot to mention- the email said that the new service would start at the beginning of the Winter timetable- end of October.

If that is the case it doesn't give much time to market the new service (even though such a service wouldn't get too much attention). 4 weeks seems quite short notice knowing that most airlines on regional flights need at least 6 weeks to let everyone know.
 
legacy135
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:58 am

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 21):
Darwin (Really bad name for an airline).

You are not alone with this  Wink
Somebody explained me lately, that his name was coming from an English Gentlemen named Charles Darwin, who defined the modern theory of evolution in the 19th century. So hopefully Darwin Airlines is going trough this evolution and will have lots of success!
By the way, if you'd like to fly again in "LS..." skies, there were several occasions lately Darwin was recruiting pilots. Obvioulsy payment isn't bad and living in the sunny Ticino is quite good as well Big grin

Good luck and blue skies
Legacy135
 
RJ100
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 5:10 pm

Quoting Gerardo (Reply 19):
What? They scrap Sion? And I hoped to see Montevideo-Sion-Wladiwostok finally running!

Get serious, folks!!

But you keep supporting ZRH-Tripolis flights with 30 pax aboard? Quite a strange statement...

Really strange too that Crossair operated these flights for years if it was so loss making.

But well, what the heck. flybe and BACX will be pleased with that announcement.

Cheers,
RJ100
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dens
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 5:44 pm

Very strange that Swiss stopped LHR-SIR... I flew this route 3 times and it was always full and it was always more than 500 Swiss Francs for the return flights. I think this is quite expensive.
I'm sure that Flybe will fill the gap.

Concerning GVA, when will Swiss codeshare with Aeroflot and Olympic? Athens and Moscow are the last route operated by Swiss from Geneva....
 
HBIHLtoEZE
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:16 pm

Quoting Cambrian (Thread starter):
Concerning GVA, when will Swiss codeshare with Aeroflot and Olympic? Athens and Moscow are the last route operated by Swiss from Geneva....

Hey guys, come on. Whatever Swiss does you think they are doing it wrong. It appears as if all of your comments were founded on personal experience and do not seem objective.

Swiss did not stop SIR: it is going to be replaced by GVA. (it probably makes more sense to fly a full a320 from GVA than a rj100 from SIR on a weekly basis - afterwards you don't have to reposition the aircraft)
They still fly to BCN and JFK from GVA (ATH and DME not the last stations left) and for all the stations left finally there is a strong partner stepping in, Lufthansa.

GVA is not left out, come on there are nine daily flights to ZRH and the connections are really not that bad.

If you find ZRH unattractive to connect, then maybe, your ambitions are a bit too difficult to satisfy...

Cheers
Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life.
 
RJ100
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:22 pm

But why even connecting in ZRH if you have LH, BA, SK, AF etc. etc. ?

There is the BIG mistake of LX!

And why flying LX to GVA if you have flybe to SIR?

It is not SWISS bashing but we see how it happens in reality. People want to fly from their destination but SWISS continues to believe everyone wants to connect through ZRH.

Maybe a bit more criticism is also necessary from our SWISS-lovers in this forum.

Cheers

RJ100
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HBIHLtoEZE
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:54 pm

RJ100, criticism is more than welcome, and believe me, I am the last who blindly takes everything that is done.

Quoting Cambrian (Thread starter):
But why even connecting in ZRH if you have LH, BA, SK, AF etc. etc. ?

well, because there are more connections (from GVA). And because those connections are meant as connections.

It is a fact that people want to fly directly. This is in my opinion the main reason for LCC's successes (next to their sometimes low fares of course).

On the one hand you want LX to stay in SIR, on the other hand it is not ok when they come back with at least one flight a week from GVA to LHR.
As far as I can see from a entrepreneurial point of view it does makes sense (as stated above).

Quoting Cambrian (Thread starter):
But why even connecting in ZRH if you have LH, BA, SK, AF etc. etc. ?

And just because I prefer LX over any other of these carriers
(have not flown SK though, but I just prefer LX over the other carriers (being aware that this is a subjective point of view)).

Do Flybe have slots from LHR to fly to SIR?

cheers
Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life.
 
RJ100
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:41 pm

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 28):
On the one hand you want LX to stay in SIR, on the other hand it is not ok when they come back with at least one flight a week from GVA to LHR.

I have nothing against opening the service to GVA. But they think the current customers to SIR will use this flight which is a misconception. It works well for some time- until someone opens the route to SIR.

Same situation in BSL. They cut all their flights and people do have no choice than filling the flights in ZRH. But it only worked until the competitiors arrived. So in fact they have lost the whole BSL market. And then they have lost the BRN market. And the Lugano market. And they do everything to lose the Geneva market as well. A lot of foreign carriers serve Geneva, not only feeding their hubs. Why should someone fly via ZRH then? You prefer SWISS because it is SWISS but for the usual customer the price is important. So the GVA-ZRH flights (loads reach between almost empty flights to full flights) tend to attract low paying clients. It's not what an airline's target should be in this segment...

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 28):
And just because I prefer LX over any other of these carriers

Don't know about Geneva but here in BSL it is the opposite. Just followed a discussion between two US people recently: "We don't fly SWISS anymore, we fly Lufthansa and easyJet".

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 28):
Do Flybe have slots from LHR to fly to SIR?

I don't know. Is it a problem to get slots in SIR?

...and thanks for the serious discussion.

Regards,
RJ100
none
 
HBIHLtoEZE
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:22 pm

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 29):
A lot of foreign carriers serve Geneva, not only feeding their hubs

What I have always wondered is if indeed foreign carriers with a hub stepped in. I know that LCCs have grown massively and impressively in GVA - but have legacy carriers increased their flights since SR' s demise? The only true new airline and route I can think of at GVA is CO - but that's different.

I might be wrong but haven't LCCs covered what could be covered after the slow retreat from SR/ LX?

From outside (the ZRH area) it looks like that what happened in GVA is repeated more or less in BSL - EZS building a new stronghold and some other LCCs coming in as well. I believe that LCCs attract new passengers (but take away steadily passengers from legacy carriers as well) and I am convinced that they hurt hub carriers immensly.

So what I want to say is that in the longer term there will be two separate kind of airports : those being served by LCCs and hubs.

Swiss just can not compete with the LCCs as they are still a network carrier. It is impossible for a hub carrier to have the same low operating cost than a LCC, especially when they operate a regional fleet.

I know that we do not agree on that, but what was really axed was the regional routes - because those routes were the least competitive. Swiss can not compete against EZY with their Saabs.

How many legacy carriers have come to BSL so far with their own metal?

BA and LH from their main hubs - otherwise it's the domestic (and outsourced from the mainline) carriers - they have different operating costs...

It seems to me that LX is more and more copying SN Brussels way: keeping the Avros, getting rid of everything smaller - Swiss will have one of the strongest RJ85/100 fleets iof the world with 23 examples by 2006!

Would you favour an outsourced Swiss Regional ?

I have recently travelled to the US (on CO because Swiss' Student fares were too expensive - bad for me, bad good for the airline) and I talked to a couple of people who praised LX not only for their long haul services but also intra-European.

A couple of friends of mine (mostly students) were indeed pissed off when EZY left ZRH - now they realised they can fly Swiss to London for not that much more, rather than connecting to BSL and GVA. The all seem to be pleased.

It always depends on whom one is talking to.

But generally I'd say Swiss' image finally got a little better - mainly due to their brilliant service offered on board and on a seemingly more consistent management.

If you look at the aviation situation in Switzerland right now one realises that it is probably as good as hardly ever before - we do have the LCCs but also a national airline.
Switzerland is such a small country - so it really should not matter that much where the flights are from.

Easyjet Switzerland is as much a Swiss airline as Swiss - even though it does not operate to Switzerland's biggest airport, ZRH.

It is an hour's drive from ZRH to BSL and three hours to GVA...

Cheers

[Edited 2005-10-04 13:28:04]

PS

Quoting Cambrian (Thread starter):
...and thanks for the serious discussion.

...it is our political duty to be as neutral as possible, isn't it?   

[Edited 2005-10-04 13:30:57]

[Edited 2005-10-04 13:36:33]
Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life.
 
RJ100
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:39 pm

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 30):
What I have always wondered is if indeed foreign carriers with a hub stepped in. I know that LCCs have grown massively and impressively in GVA - but have legacy carriers increased their flights since SR' s demise? The only true new airline and route I can think of at GVA is CO - but that's different.

Malev, Iberia, Air Nostrum, SAS, KLM. I am sure the Geneva members can add some more...

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 30):
I believe that LCCs attract new passengers (but take away steadily passengers from legacy carriers as well) and I am convinced that they hurt hub carriers immensly.

True. Like I have said, LX lost the whole market in BSL. And now the LCCs even take away passengers from their operations in ZRH. Another reason why it was wrong to abandon the airport.

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 30):
So what I want to say is that in the longer term there will be two separate kind of airports : those being served by LCCs and hubs

And those who have LCCs plus connections to hubs plus some regional flights, such as BSL and GVA.

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 30):
Swiss just can not compete with the LCCs as they are still a network carrier. It is impossible for a hub carrier to have the same low operating cost than a LCC, especially when they operate a regional fleet.

They could compete. Exactly because they ARE a network carrier. Or because they can offer better flying times. Basel-Berlin-Basel offered 5 additional hours to a business man compared to easyJet. He was therefore ready to pay high prices. According to passenger statistics load factors on LX flights ex BSL did not drop after easy's start nor did the yields.

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 30):
How many legacy carriers have come to BSL so far with their own metal?

Enough for people that they don't need to travel to ZRH.

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 30):
BA and LH from their main hubs - otherwise it's the domestic (and outsourced from the mainline) carriers - they have different operating costs...

You seem to forget that SWISS once had these operating costs...

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 30):
Would you favour an outsourced Swiss Regional ?

No, but I always supported the idea to outsource the longhaul fleet.


Regards,
RJ100
none
 
HBIHLtoEZE
Posts: 247
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:50 pm

RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:16 pm

RJ100:

So why do you think the routes out of BSL are axed? Just because SWISS does not understand airline management and is willing to show Zurich arrogance?

What I asked before: How many mainline flights (LH, BA with their own metal) not subcontractors like Cityline and Austrian Arrows came to BSL? Same for GVA? Are they the same company as their parent one?


What I meant: yo can not compete against EZY with a Saab 2000 with the overall operating cost SWISS have.

You might if you had your own regional airline (but you would have to pay ridiculous salaries to your employees- the golden age of regional flying are gone and were replaced by LCCs) this is why LH is stepping in in BSL with Cityline, Air Dolomiti, Contactair, Eurowings...


Cheers

[Edited 2005-10-04 14:18:44]
Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life.
 
ZRH
Posts: 4371
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 1999 11:32 pm

RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:34 pm

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 32):
So why do you think the routes out of BSL are axed? Just because SWISS does not understand airline management and is willing to show Zurich arrogance?

What I asked before: How many mainline flights (LH, BA with their own metal) not subcontractors like Cityline and Austrian Arrows came to BSL? Same for GVA? Are they the same company as their parent one?


What I meant: yo can not compete against EZY with a Saab 2000 with the overall operating cost SWISS have.

You might if you had your own regional airline (but you would have to pay ridiculous salaries to your employees- the golden age of regional flying are gone and were replaced by LCCs) this is why LH is stepping in in BSL with Cityline, Air Dolomiti, Contactair, Eurowings...

I have to second that. Network carriers won't be able in the future to compete LCCs with their own metal on routes between non-hub airports. They have to concentrate on feeding their network hubs and leave the other routes to sub contract airlines and others. I see this coming more and more for all legacy airlines. The system will be: regional airlines with regional hubs, LCCs with point to point connections and network carriers with the feeding of their long-haul network. There is economically no other solution at the moment.
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:56 pm

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 32):
So why do you think the routes out of BSL are axed? Just because SWISS does not understand airline management and is willing to show Zurich arrogance?

Because they are in the misbelief that if you drop routes ex BSL and GVA that these passengers simply fly from ZRH.

Look, Swissair has done the same many years ago. During the regulated markets Swissair served some destinations ex Zurich, but did not serve Basel. Since the markets were regulated, noone got traffic rights to serve Basel so what choice people had? They needed to fly from ZRH.
Can you believe that the Basel chamber of commerce, the politicians and the local companies in Basel needed to fight for years until Swissair "allowed" a direct Basel-London flight? And then what happened? They offered a flight in the middle of the afternoon (bad times for customers) just to drop it due to low load factors a few months later!

SWISS like Swissair in the last years of its life suffers from a overcapacity in ZRH. They can solve the situation in the longhaul part simply because they sell cheap tickets all over Europe and fill up the planes but they have problems to fill their European flights in ZRH. So it is clear that they do not like a flight from BSL, although the flights do fine.

So the same happens again, SWISS drops routes from BSL and GVA and thinks people will fly from Zurich. But today the situation is different! Today, almost every carrier is allowed to fly to BSL and GVA and they will take care of these markets.
You should remember that SWISS almost had a monopoly in BSL when they started. The airport management even rejected to negociate with low fares airlines! So it is really strange if they argue that they can not compete with the LCCs in BSL. They are the reason why LCCs came to BSL (and GVA)!

And now: With attracting LCCs due to their weak product they have made a further own goal because the LCCs in BSL do also attract people from SWISS' homemarket Zurich. So in the end they lose not only BSL and GVA but get trouble in ZRH too.

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 32):
What I asked before: How many mainline flights (LH, BA with their own metal) not subcontractors like Cityline and Austrian Arrows came to BSL? Same for GVA? Are they the same company as their parent one?

Maybe not many mainline carriers that offer regional flights. But both airports (BSL and GVA) today offer a route network that allows every passenger to stay far away from ZRH and SWISS.
They really had a good customer base in Basel but dropped it. And even the high yield business people switched from SWISS to easyJet. Last week for instance Novartis opened a new reservation system. easyJet gets priority for all bookings. It is very easy since every single employee can book directly from his computer...
BTW, airlines that opened routes to BSL are for instance Cimber Air, Air France, Twin Jet, Air Algérie, JAT, Lufthansa, BA, OS, Iberia/Air Nostrum, Aigle Azur, Air Transat etc.

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 32):
What I meant: yo can not compete against EZY with a Saab 2000 with the overall operating cost SWISS have.

They definitely cannot with the cost base they have today. But they had a much lower cost base when they started...

Regards,
RJ100
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SWISSER
Posts: 1568
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:31 am

RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:16 pm

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 31):
Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 30):
Would you favour an outsourced Swiss Regional ?

No, but I always supported the idea to outsource the longhaul fleet.

Really?

I think with that statement you again said your biggest pain in the ass Thomas!

SWISS in no CROSSAIR anymore!

Look what happened to the remains of SABENA,
now we can get to all small places with our "CROSSAIR" in Belgium (SN Brussels way to loooong name Airlines), but getting to Tokyo on our national carrier? even New York? That's a big example of a cripple national carrier, even if they make money thet don't have the balls to take risks.
even Johannesburg...

[Edited 2005-10-04 15:18:37]
What time is top of descent?
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:25 pm

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 35):
I think with that statement you again said your biggest pain in the ass Thomas!

I actually was serious about that since we would have clear results on the performance then.

We had enough discussions about Swissair-Crossair etc. and I do not participate in a stupid Crossair-Swissair whatever war again.


Regards,
RJ100
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HBIHLtoEZE
Posts: 247
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:50 pm

RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:36 pm

Hey RJ100,

what I think is exaggerated is your aversion against ZRH.

What happened before the age of deregulation is not so important anymore. And now it is certainly not repeated.

ZRH and its surrounding areas (spreading up to BSL) is Switzerland's most populated and economically successful area. So it is probably clear and logical to select ZRH as a hub.
That certainly does nor speak against flights from BSL.
But as stated before it is not the 1990s anymore, something like Eurocross does not work any longer.

Other carriers other than LCCs in BSL have the advantage they they can connect to their hub (in the case of OS and LH).

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 34):
So the same happens again, SWISS drops routes from BSL and GVA and thinks people will fly from Zurich.

SWISS, according to my knowledge, and as far as I can see it, tries hard to find its way to profitability. So no wonder do they concentrate on their hub. I do not agree that they drop routes and then expect people to fly from ZRH. They react to the changes in the market.


I am fully aware of the fact that lots and lots of things should have been made better at the beginning with Swiss.
After some bloody mistakes under the previous managament (like selling slots at Deathrow for example) they finally do a promising job.

The decisions are not against BSL or GVA and in favour of ZRH, but in favour of SWISS.

Look, I do not believe that they axe flights from BSL and GVA to get more people to ZRH, they just no longer want to operate routes that have to compete with LCCs or do not work any longer. They need to make money, the times of political decisions is over, the economical reality counts again.

Today I think, and ZRH seems to agree, there are only two ways to make money in the pax aviation business: by a network or by LCCs.

I do not agree that SWISS sell too cheap tickets. And their planes are not that empty.

Just to go back to the Swissair comparison. Do you remember the time before the grim reapers of Bruggisser and the like?

SR under Löpfe had about the same size long haul as LX has it now - and it worked (in the beginning of the 1990s, aviation has however significantly grown since then).

I agree that the European network is especially challenged as passengers are drawn to the cheapest prices - so they will go to where one can fly cheapest from.

I predict that it is only a matter of time until LCCs take over many routes of legacy carriers (like the Helvetic - Swiss rumours) - hub and spoke will work as follows: LCCs feed the regional market, long haul continues as usual.

I think we are in the middle of a complete change of the whole industry and I do not think SWISS plays badly - they are more alert than ever to understand the signs of time correctly.

Cheers

[Edited 2005-10-04 15:39:32]
Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life.
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:22 pm

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 37):
what I think is exaggerated is your aversion against ZRH.

I have no aversion against Zurich at all. That's the problem of many of you. Criticising SWISS and Swiss aviation politics is =criticising Zurich and Switzerland.
Swiss aviation was once a big part of my life (Swissair included). It does not mean that I blindly agree with everything that happens today. And yes- I do not agree on the SWISS business model. And it is my right to express my opinion. If you guys cannot accept other opinions then you should stay away from this discussion. It's as simple as that.

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 37):
What happened before the age of deregulation is not so important anymore. And now it is certainly not repeated.

It is important. Because it is shocking that in the SWISS board there are still people representing this same ideology (we dont serve BSL, they need to come to ZRH).

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 37):
ZRH and its surrounding areas (spreading up to BSL) is Switzerland's most populated and economically successful area.

Switzerland in fact is ONE city. And huge cities can also have multiple airports.  

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 37):
But as stated before it is not the 1990s anymore, something like Eurocross does not work any longer.

Well that's a bit a too easy way. In the end we don't know. Just one thing: I know that the EuroCross was profitable (I know that most do not believe it but anyway...). And please remember that the Basel region (politics, companies) paid huge sums to SWISS (something like 150 millions CHF) when they started. You could operate an EuroCross for years with that money (even if loss making).

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 37):
Other carriers other than LCCs in BSL have the advantage they they can connect to their hub (in the case of OS and LH).

That's very strange. I was on one of the last LX flights BSL-Vienna-Basel and the flights were packed--> route dropped. I was flying to Manchester on them, flight packed, route dropped, flew with them to London, flights packed, route dropped, used to fly to Amsterdam, Florence, Berlin, Hamburg and Birmingham. Every time the flights had good load factors and cost a fortune.

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 37):
SWISS, according to my knowledge, and as far as I can see it, tries hard to find its way to profitability. So no wonder do they concentrate on their hub. I do not agree that they drop routes and then expect people to fly from ZRH. They react to the changes in the market.

Hopefully, otherwise LH will close them down.

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 37):
Today I think, and ZRH seems to agree, there are only two ways to make money in the pax aviation business: by a network or by LCCs.

Well, then LX should present some big profits with its network then. But they dont. They had nearly 5 years to set up a good product in BSL (i.e. trying to set up a LCC) but they did not. They simply closed down everything and threw their employees out. And now they complain about the LCCs.

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 37):
I do not agree that SWISS sell too cheap tickets. And their planes are not that empty.

That's why I proposed to outsource the longhaul part. So that we can have a final result on that. But I immediately got bashed for that in one of the answers above.

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 37):
Just to go back to the Swissair comparison. Do you remember the time before the grim reapers of Bruggisser and the like?

SR under Löpfe had about the same size long haul as LX has it now - and it worked (in the beginning of the 1990s, aviation has however significantly grown since then).

And I thought that we cannot go back in history  

BTW, there is noone hoping more that SWISS survives than me. Because if LH decides to reduce LX to a minimum then the airport in ZRH will be in serious trouble, especially if struggling Helvetic needs to fold too. And then who needs to pay? The whole of Switzerland of course.


Regards,
RJ100

[Edited 2005-10-04 16:23:24]
none
 
ZRH
Posts: 4371
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:36 pm

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 38):
It is important. Because it is shocking that in the SWISS board there are still people representing this same ideology (we dont serve BSL, they need to come to ZRH).

You think it is an ideology? If it was, these people would have to be dismissed without period of notice (fristlose Kündigung). I really don't think that there is any ideology behind it. They only have to make economic decisions. I am sure that LH would not accept any political ideology.
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:40 pm

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 39):
They only have to make economic decisions

If they would do so then there would not much remain in ZRH believe me. Or do you really think that the losses in the SWISS company are due to the few lousy Saabs they operate?

You bashed me in a recent post when I mentioned some informations from the LH network planners. And you will not believe me now either but I can tell you: It is time to wake up! LH will not accept further losses. And it is simply embarrassing to still put the blame on the regional part!

Cheers,
RJ100

[Edited 2005-10-04 16:41:40]
none
 
HBIHLtoEZE
Posts: 247
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:50 pm

RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:16 am

Hey RJ100,

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 40):
And it is simply embarrassing to still put the blame on the regional part!

As you said now with LH in power the times of the political decisions are over.

I just can not follow you when insisting on the regional part.

It is not the 1990s anymore when the regional airline meetings proudly offered record by record.

Today's regional flights are performed by LCCs. Show me one regional airline that performed well recently (or was established recently). Darwin and Baboo are still in the reds...Styrian Spirit might be an exception, but they benefit from their codeshares.

One example that is just too often forgotten:
SN Brussels got rid of their turbo props...and Belgium now whines about not having more long haul flights, but nobody misses the props: FR is too close at Beavais.

Look, while it is absolutely ok to feel wistful for what has happened at BSL it is now time to see ahead.

If SWISS still does wrong then LH, the new owner, knows how te react.

If the BSL routes are demanded well (as you state) Lufthansa Cityline will take them over - their operating costs are significantly lower than Swiss'.


Cheers
Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life.
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:39 am

Yes I believe that you can succesfully operate regional flights. But I dont want to discuss that here.

Funny thing is that never ever someone thinks about the longhaul flights. The SWISS longhaul network is loss making, otherwise SWISS would not be loss making. So if the smaller planes are loss making you shut them down but if the longhaul flights are loss making then you keep them? Come on...

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 41):
I just can not follow you when insisting on the regional part.

Well I know traffic figures out of BSL and have an idea about how much people pay for the tickets. And on some routes it is really hard to believe that LX cannot make a profit.
But it is not about regional or not. Like I have said. SWISS had 5 years to offer an adequate product in BSL. They did not even try.

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 41):
Today's regional flights are performed by LCCs. Show me one regional airline that performed well recently (or was established recently).

Carpatair, Moldavian, DauAir, OLT, EAE, Cimber Air, Air Alps just to name a few.

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 41):
it is now time to see ahead.

Oh don't get me wrong. All Swiss airports apart from ZRH are already in the future and are "safe". And I am in the future as well as a passionate easyJet supporter.

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 41):
If SWISS still does wrong then LH, the new owner, knows how te react.

That's for sure. But maybe you even realise that LH is simply not interested in direct flights out of Zurich. What if they will announce massive cuts with the reason "that there is no market and that everything is loss making". Then you are in the same situation that GVA and BSL were recently. I hope you remember my statement then and do not complain.

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 41):
If the BSL routes are demanded well (as you state) Lufthansa Cityline will take them over

It shows more and more that LH is mainly interested in their hubs FRA and MUC.
Unfortunately I fear that you will realise that sooner or later. But please guys- do not complain then.

Good luck!

RJ100
none
 
HBIHLtoEZE
Posts: 247
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:42 am

Ok, thank you for your points, RJ100,

I really appreciate your (strong) opinion,

I however do not think LH is going to reduce SWISS' long haul routes ex ZRH drastically (one clear indicator is that they "invited" AC to fly to India via ZRH - ZRH is to become the fourth Star hub in the German speaking area, next to VIE, FRA and MUC).


If you like EZS everything is fine for BSL, isn't?

Cheers
Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life.
 
legacy135
Posts: 966
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 11:06 pm

RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:32 am

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 26):
Swiss did not stop SIR: it is going to be replaced by GVA.

....and they didn't stop any flights at all, they just replaced them with flights to ZRH  Wink

Come on please, this can't be serious! One big mistake the LX routeplanners did and still are doing, is thinking that they can conduct the passengers behavior. I do agree, that it is nothing than logic to concentrate on one hub. But there is still a need for selected direct routes and even moe important, they need to feed this hub. They aren't doing any of these expect from some GVA-ZRH flights!

Do you really think that those passengers wanting to fly to SIR take now the LX flight to GVA? That's what they thought about all those passengers from BRN, BSL and LUG as well! If they won't get a LX flight to SIR, they will either go for the FlyBE option or have the choice from a wide varite of British companies. This is nothing than a fact. And this is what happend on most of their routes, as passengers are walking away.

It's obvious that we can see everybody blaming LX for what they do. Unfortunately they did a lot of mistakes, much more than necessary.

1.They announced to beacome an absolute premium airline. We still wait for that and many customers are frustrated and disappointed.

2. They started dropping all their regional feeders. Who brings the passengers to ZRH then?

3. Then they decided to become a LCC in economy and a Premium in business. Fact is, nobody gets a LCC by lowering prices and selling food. You will just make your short haul operations a "cash burner" exactly what they did. A LCC is a LCC because they have a very slim and cheap structure, everything different than LX!

4. Then they re-invented the free meal for everybody, now change in strategy again!

I still don't know if they are sure what they really want. Fact is, they lost a lot of credibility for various reasons, incl. their fights with the unions.

Most of the Swiss cantons payed to create the airline. Fact is, the only one getting now the services and with that also the direct economical benefit as jobs etc, is the canton of Zürich.

I supported the project very much for a long time. I start to think now that it was a failure and that LH as the new owner and the Cantons directly getting the profit - in first row for sure Zürich - should reimburse all the other cantons for the tax money they paid in that project.

****** Please forgive me for any misspelling, as the spell check is down again******
 
HBIHLtoEZE
Posts: 247
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:10 am

Legacy135:

I absolutely agree with you that Swiss' launch was very badly managed and that it took time to find a suitable strategy.

In my opinion they are finally on track and their new management certainly does not deserve to be bashed just because they are Swiss' management.

As far as I can observe, just about every new decision by Swiss is bad from the very beginning - just because it is made. Give them a fair chance and judge in an entrepreneurial sense.


Look, they are a good airline and their employees are doing a fantastic job. Just in their sake, think positive!


Just in their sake, think positive!

I know it is a Swiss habit to grumble and to whinge about pretty much everything that is not immaculate.

I am often abroad and every time I get back to Switzerland, I am getting aware of all the whining going on - and our national airline is just the stereotype of how the Swiss like to whine. It has become the premium whine about target rather than our airline.

Look, if it weren't for any comments in the newspapers or whining Swiss guys I would not have noticed hardly anything unpleasant or bad about the airline at all.
Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life.
 
cambrian
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2003 1:45 am

RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:51 am

Sorry to intrude here, guys. Just a few thoughts:

The idea that LX is "replacing" Sion flights with a flight to GVA is simply ludicrous- airline marketing spin at its very worst. It is obvious that they are cancelling SIR and reinstating GVA on a limited basis, as a prelude to resuming multiple frequency, daily Heathrow services in the future.

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 44):
1.They announced to beacome an absolute premium airline. We still wait for that and many customers are frustrated and disappointed

Well, as a UK citizen, I can tell you that IMHO, Swiss is about as premium as you can get these days! I go out of my way to fly LX in Europe, preferring to connect in ZRH or GVA. GVA offers less connections these days (!), but they are still serving ATH, where I travel to a lot from London.

The service on Swiss is far better than BA in Business class- the cabins are nicer and the LX crew do a fantastic job of making me feel welcome each time I fly. For me. this says it all:



Swiss actually lives up to this in its service standards! Whenever I connect to other Swiss flights in GVA or ZRH, there are lots of other Brits doing the same thing.

Ok, so Swiss dabbled with Buy on Board in Y, but they were sensible enough to admit that it was a mistake and abandon it, instead of doggedly sticking to a bad idea.

Swiss is still innovating. For example, their A320 cabin redesign is very impressive, and they are being copied by the likes of BA who are looking for ways to improve their highly mediocre Club Europe product.

As for LX only serving the canton of ZRH, that cannot be true, as there are many other cantons within a short drive of ZRH. I think that the idea that LX is not interested in Suisse Romande is perhaps more accurate. We have the same problem in the UK where BA has not developed international flights from our regions, and does not even serve Wales at all. I think that LX made a mistake in retreating from GVA and BSL, and they have effectively handed a lucrative market to EZS. I only pray that LX will not abandon the GVA-ATH route.

Swiss catering is also excellent. Name another airline that serves a 3 course meal, course by course, on an intra-European flight? If there is one, then I will fly with them also.

Of course, I have never flown Swiss in Y, so I would be interested to hear how they are.

I think that people in Switzerland are lucky to have such a quality flag carrier. Even though LX was born in difficult circumstances, it is one of the best airlines in the world. This is reflected in the number of awards that it has won in its short life.

But going back to the original topic, I hope to see LX back on the GVA-LHR route daily, soon.
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:20 pm

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 44):
This is nothing than a fact. And this is what happend on most of their routes, as passengers are walking away.

I need to second that. And to give you an example: My dad is currently in the air from FRA to BSL on Lufthansa (originating in EWR). He is a frequent business class traveller. In the past he used Crossair on shorthaul flights and used Swissair for the longhaul part. Later on he used SWISS on shorthaul and on longhaul. But more and more he got forced to connect in ZRH on shorthaul flights too because they were simply abandoning all routes. So what is my dad doing today? He switched to Lufthansa because they offer good connections out of BSL to everywhere in the world. And many people did so. Have you ever wondered why Lufthansa is currently operating 737s on the BSL route while just a few years earlier they have flown the route with a Dash? Because they gained customers- SWISS customers.

What I want to say is that SWISS did not only lose the shorthaul pax in BSL, they have also lost the longhaul pax who kept flying LX due to their frequent flyer programme.

Regards,
RJ100
none
 
legacy135
Posts: 966
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 11:06 pm

RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:02 pm

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 45):
Give them a fair chance and judge in an entrepreneurial sense.

I absolutey do agree with you that we shouldn't bash them, before they could show what they are able for. As politics was involved from the beginning on, it resulted as well as a very difficult mission they went for.
I for my side gave them extremely credit and felt very proud to see "Swiss International Air Lines" taking off after the Swissair bankrupcy. Unfortunately I've seen so many things now happening which are not at all "common sense" that I really start to wonder if they know where they want to go. What they did to the regions by abandonning basically all is a scandal itself. You can go real far with such restructuring. But then, plaese at least link the regions with ZRH if there is no way that leads around ZRH! But they are not, they think we go there to board which is not the case. The entire country paid for this airline, so the entire country should get it's services as well.

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 45):
Look, if it weren't for any comments in the newspapers or whining Swiss guys I would not have noticed hardly anything unpleasant or bad about the airline at all.

Agree absolutely, it is very Swiss to only mention to bad part, nobody is talking about the success.

Quoting Cambrian (Reply 46):
I think that people in Switzerland are lucky to have such a quality flag carrier.

I am feeling real good, reading such nice comments of somebody from another country. The thing is, LX promissed us to make up an airline that was as good and better than "good old" Swissair was. Unfortunatley they are not complying in all aspects with this standart. On one side many other airlines improved their premium products as well, on the other, if you remain with a good memory of someone passed away, the one stepping in it's track will have a hard time. Unfortunately they did not achieve in all aspects, so critics came over them.
But something real Swiss is to bash ourselves all the time. We are doing hard to realize our own successes and always think others were better. Switzerland should be a little more self confident, we might love then our own airline more as well  Wink..........we still complain being the most expensive ones in Europe.......just thinking about the average price of a good cup of coffee in Europe I start to love the Swiss bargain Big grin

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 47):
What I want to say is that SWISS did not only lose the shorthaul pax in BSL, they have also lost the longhaul pax who kept flying LX due to their frequent flyer programme.

Agree 100% what your Dad does, we do when we go to recurrent training or have a positioning as well. First choice is LH, as out of BRN we get via MUC to about everywhere. Second choice is BSL as from there we go by LH's 737, as you correctly say, trough FRA to the world and at BSL have a parking that has moderate prices. Then..................................................................................................................................................................after a while ..................................ZRH, where you won't make it within 60 minutes from the car to the check in and the midfield dock and by coming back, you need the "Platinium Credit Card" to settle the bill of the car park Big grin

GVA is a good option as well, but we basically get all out of BSL we find in GVA and it's closer.

 worried .....I remember sadly those glory days having up to 5 SAAB's between BRN and BSL, making it the port to the world......
 
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RE: Swiss To Link Heathrow And Geneva Again

Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:46 pm

Come on Swiss guys!

Always when there is a topic concerning Switzerland we can read the same post. Please, stop it!!!

It is an aviation forum not a political one, so please no Röestigraben, no "Zurich is more important thant Basle..."

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