targowski
Posts: 123
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AF Alize Econ Class. Comperable To WT+, VS PE?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:18 am

i noticed that on certain flights on AF CIO (caribbean indian ocean) flights from ORY, there is alize econ which is apparently a premium econ product. 2 questions: how does this compare to BA WT+ and VS PE? and why is this product only on CIO flights? it seems both BA and VS have had success with premium economy products. why not AF? plenty of people would seemingly be willing to pay a few hundred more to fly in a little bit more comfort on NYC-CDG, SFO-CDG and LAX-CDG just to name a few, especially when enchanced J class fares, flat beds, less J class seats, higher CASM on those seats add to a bigger fare difference between Y and J tickets.

i'm a big fan of the marketablity of near business or premium econ products in general and can't figure out why AF limits this. any thoughts?
 
jouy31
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RE: AF Alize Econ Class. Comperable To WT+, VS PE?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:57 pm

mmm ... The Alizé class is very close to standard Tempo class,while Tempo class on the Caribbean Indian Ocean network looks more like a slightly downgraded coach product.
 
TR
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RE: AF Alize Econ Class. Comperable To WT+, VS PE?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:31 pm

Alizé offer significantly more legroom (my guess 34-35") compared to 31" in Tempo. Having tried the product twice (two round trips), I've noticed that normally only four of the six seats per row is used thus offering 2+2 seating instead of 3+3. We were also offered pre-takeoff juice and a sight improved meal service. Tempo on the CIO routes seems to be slightly downgraded compared to other intercontinental routes. This is probably due to the fact that the CIO flights could be seen as scheduled charter flights to France's (previous) overseas territories.
 
FlySSC
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RE: AF Alize Econ Class. Comperable To WT+, VS PE?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:29 pm

Quoting TR (Reply 2):
I've noticed that normally only four of the six seats per row is used thus offering 2+2 seating instead of 3+3.

 no  That's the "Business" class, on the European network only.

Actually, the seats in S ("Alizée Class") are the same than in Y or M.
The pitch is a little higher at the upper deck of the B743.
In the B744, the pitch is 32" in "M" and 34"/35" in "S" at the upper deck.

"S" Class is closer to the regular "Y" Class on the rest of the long Haul network : Champagne, Apéritif, choice of wine, choice of two main hot course, comfort kit, Magazines, etc....

"M" Class (Tempo Vacance) on the C.I.O network is more a downgraded coach product as Jouy31 said : No comfort kit, No Champagne, no "Aperitif", hot main meal but no choice, Wine on the tray, no Brandy/Cognac/Armagnac with the Coffee, etc ...
 
TR
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RE: AF Alize Econ Class. Comperable To WT+, VS PE?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:51 pm

FlySSC: Then it has been a coincidence that we were seated 2+2
 
FlySSC
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RE: AF Alize Econ Class. Comperable To WT+, VS PE?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:08 pm

Quoting TR (Reply 4):
Then it has been a coincidence that we were seated 2+2

Not really .... When the Class is not full, they try to leave an empty seat between the PAX to give more room... But this happens very rarely, believe me !.
Were you at the upper deck of a B743 ?
 
TR
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RE: AF Alize Econ Class. Comperable To WT+, VS PE?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:46 pm

FlySSC: Three times on the upper deck of a 742SUD and once in 'zone B' on the lower deck of a 742. From my memory there was more space on the upper deck. I guess we were lucky to be seated alone then. Anyway a comfortable ride on all flights.

[Edited 2005-10-04 14:50:13]
 
TGV
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RE: AF Alize Econ Class. Comperable To WT+, VS PE?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:21 am

Quoting Targowski (Thread starter):
i'm a big fan of the marketablity of near business or premium econ products in general and can't figure out why AF limits this. any thoughts?

Why, during the refurbishing of the AF cabins (NEV concept) did they not introduce an Eco+ cabin, which seems successful with other airlines?
Especially since the travel policy of many firms (mine at least!) is now Eco only, for all flights.  Sad

When I fly to Asia for leisure (longer than 12 hours flights), paying myself, or I can get what I consider as an acceptable business fare on AF (~2000 euros, bought in advance), or I fly EVA air with their EcoDeluxe class (which is a real Eco+ product with 38' pitch, far better seats and 8 abreast in a 744  Smile), even if this implies a longer trip time.

There is a HUGE reduction in premium seats on AF NEV planes serving "leisure" destinations. For example the 744 "Lignes internationales" (not the CIO version) are changed from 13P / 58J / 321 Y to 40J / 393Y.
So the ratio Premium seats/Eco seats is down from 22% to 10%  Sad (I don't consider the Alizee class as an Eco+ product, as seats are the same than in eco, the only difference is the slightly increased pitch, but nothing in width  crowded  ).

This will imply less "affordable" business fares, and less operational upgrades for frequent flyers, two elements that will impact my choice of airlines when flying.
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
 
FlySSC
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RE: AF Alize Econ Class. Comperable To WT+, VS PE?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:17 am

Quoting TR (Reply 6):
Three times on the upper deck of a 742SUD and once in 'zone B' on the lower deck of a 742

The B742 used on the C.I.O network were equipped with 27 "Alizée Class" seats at the upper deck.
The Zone B" were sold as "Alizée" on certain destinations like MRU or sometimes as "M" Tempo Vacances on others like RUN ...

On the B743, the "Alizée" class is only upstairs.
 
Sabena332
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RE: AF Alize Econ Class. Comperable To WT+, VS PE?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:22 am

A little bit off-topic, but does anyone know what the "Le Club" class was?

I remember that I saw it in an old AF timetable (early or mid 1990's). Was it the old name for L'Espace Première or was it a third class in the planes which operated flights in the C.I.O network?

"Le Club" sounds actually very cool, too bad that AF got rid of the name.  Sad

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
jouy31
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RE: AF Alize Econ Class. Comperable To WT+, VS PE?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:41 am

Unless I am mistaken, Le Club referred to what is now L'Espace Affaires.
 
FlySSC
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RE: AF Alize Econ Class. Comperable To WT+, VS PE?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:58 am

"Première Classe" became "L'Espace 180" ... and is now "L'Espace Première".

"Le Club" was the Business Class, then became "L'Espace 127" ... and is now "L'Espace Affaire".

But "Le Club" remained the name of the Business Class on the C.I.O only until the late 90's ... as the inflight service was still different from the "normal" Business class of the rest of the network.

[Edited 2005-10-04 19:01:16]
 
Sabena332
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RE: AF Alize Econ Class. Comperable To WT+, VS PE?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:19 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 11):
"Première Classe" became "L'Espace 180" ... and is now "L'Espace Première".

"Le Club" was the Business Class, then became "L'Espace 127" ... and is now "L'Espace Affaire".

But "Le Club" remained the name of the Business Class on the C.I.O only until the late 90's ... as the inflight service was still different from the "normal" Business class of the rest of the network.

Thanks for this information, I was always wondering about the "Le Club" class.

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
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Francoflier
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RE: AF Alize Econ Class. Comperable To WT+, VS PE?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:38 am

I flew on the 'Alize' class recently on a trip from the french Antilles to Paris and back.

On the B743 that fly between the Metropole and CIO destination, Alize consist of the whole upper deck.

Uppon getting in there, I saw decently pitched seat, with PTVs, and as usual the fairly good AF service. What it is, really, is a coach seat as the one you'd find on major airlines economy class on flights to EU, Asia or N. America. Which was a good surprise, given the age of the aircraft.

So why should you pay extra for a coach seat that you would find on other flights? Well, I went downstairs during the flight and realized.
AF's B743 are configured like cattle transports, and seeing the coach seats of the main cabin was like travelling back in time a few years: leg crunching pitch, no PTV's and the like...
Those will carry 507 pax, not bad for a 747!

Coach on the CIO flights with AF is hell, I'd definitely pay that extra fare to get a decent coach seat in alize on those 8 hours flights.
Alize is no different from a standard coach seat on the more 'prestigious' destinations...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.