Boeing777/747
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Cubana Il-96. What Are Their Plans? New Livery?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:12 pm

How many Il-96s has Cubana, why did they choose for this type, will there be more to come and why don't they choose for an Airbus 340?

http://www.flugzeugbilder.de/a/37/72/1124723233.jpg

Saw this new idea at MAP:


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scbriml
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RE: Cubana Il-96. What Are Their Plans? New Livery?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:13 pm

They haven't been delivered to Cubana yet. I think the first is just about ready - it was in the static display at the MAKS air show in Moscow this August. However, since the grounding of Il-96s was only just lifted today, it will be a little while before the first one arrives in Havana.

The plane at MAKS was in standard Cubana colours.
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Boeing777/747
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RE: Cubana Il-96. What Are Their Plans? New Livery?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:49 am

How many Il-96s has Cubana ordered?
 
ContinentalFan
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RE: Cubana Il-96. What Are Their Plans? New Livery?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:00 am

Quoting Boeing777/747 (Thread starter):
why don't they choose for an Airbus 340?

Because of the US embargo, Cubana (like IranAir, etc.) can't buy western aircraft, because even Airbuses have enough US content for the embargo to apply. Even if most of the aircraft would be made in Europe, a system here, a part there, soon it adds up to the point where you couldn't have a working plane without US made (or at least sourced from US companies) components. Even IranAir's A330 order, powered by RR engines, couldn't be fulfilled.
 
miamix707
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RE: Cubana Il-96. What Are Their Plans? New Livery?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:13 pm

wow..! I thought I was seeing a BMi livery that a child copied in art class or something. That's just gross.
 
xaphan
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RE: Cubana Il-96. What Are Their Plans? New Livery?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:24 pm

All in the eye of the beholder... I think it is striking and very impressive.
 
LGW
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RE: Cubana Il-96. What Are Their Plans? New Livery?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:14 pm

Hi all,

Am I missing something?

"Because of the US embargo, Cubana (like IranAir, etc.) can't buy western aircraft, because even Airbuses have enough US content for the embargo to apply. Even if most of the aircraft would be made in Europe, a system here, a part there, soon it adds up to the point where you couldn't have a working plane without US made (or at least sourced from US companies) components. Even IranAir's A330 order, powered by RR engines, couldn't be fulfilled."

Iran Air currently operate:-

  • Boeing 727's,
  • Boeing 747-100,
  • Boeing 747- 200's,
  • Boeing 747SP's,
  • Airbus A300's,
  • Airbus A310's
  • Fokker 100's

    So how is is they can't buy western aircraft? Do you mean they can't buy new Western aircraft now or ever?

    Cheers

    Ben Pritchard
  •  
    TheSonntag
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    RE: Cubana Il-96. What Are Their Plans? New Livery?

    Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:23 pm

    Quoting LGW (Reply 6):

    Cubana also operated western aircraft, the magic word being "leasing"... They leased airplanes with French reg, something the US could not avoid. I don't know whether the F100 has enough US made parts in order to fall under the embargo, but the Airbus planes definetely have too many US parts. Thats why Airbus could not sell airplanes to Lybia before...
     
    sabenapilot
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    RE: Cubana Il-96. What Are Their Plans? New Livery?

    Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:44 pm

    Quoting LGW (Reply 6):
    You mean they can't buy new Western aircraft?

    Indeed, because of a US embargo, products (or components of products) made in the USA may no longer be exported to Iran, Cuba, etc...

    Needless to say there is an easy way around this embargo: a company from a country under US embargo sets up a European subsidiary -often with aid from the EU foreign trade office which wants to do business with that country- and this subsidiary then buys the product straight from the European manufacturer and sells or leases it on to the country under embargo.
    Obviously, the transfer company will immediately be blacklisted by the US, but since it was set up especially for this purpose they don't mind and the EU refuses to take steps against them because it does not recognize the unilateral US embargo...

    It happens almost on a daily basis, not only in aviation, but in all sectors of the economy.
     
    sabenapilot
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    RE: Cubana Il-96. What Are Their Plans? New Livery?

    Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:54 pm

    Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 7):
    Thats why Airbus could not sell airplanes to Lybia before...

    Not entirely correct.

    Airbus could not do business with Lybia, because that country was under UN sanctions. UN sactions need to be respected by all UN members and their companies, thus Airbus could not sell to Lybia.

    However, in the case of Cuba, this country simply is the victim of unilateral US sanctions which are NOT recognised by the EU and so Airbus is free to do business with this country. Only problem being that many parts of Airbusses are made in the US and thus fall under the US embargo, notably avionics, engines etc..., but like I've explained, there is an easy way around this and Airbus is very willing to cooperate in this.

    Needless to say there must be very strong political backing from the EU for companies busting the US embargo so the USA does not dare to retaliate against them.

    [Edited 2005-10-05 11:57:18]
     
    ContinentalFan
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    RE: Cubana Il-96. What Are Their Plans? New Livery?

    Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:12 pm

    Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 8):
    Needless to say there is an easy way around this embargo: a company from a country under US embargo sets up a European subsidiary -often with aid from the EU foreign trade office which wants to do business with that country- and this subsidiary then buys the product straight from the European manufacturer and sells or leases it on to the country under embargo.

    Actually, US law will reach this subsidiary too. While you could theoretically set up a third company that buys from Airbus, then resells to an embargoed country, if that company is controlled or has any significant ties to a US company, US law will reach it too. There have actually been cases of this happening that I can cite if you wish. Even if it was a subsidiary of a non-US company, the US can reach the parent company; in fact, it would go after any part of the sourcing chain it can reach. Few companies want that kind of risk exposure, and like you said there would ahve to be European government backing for it to even have a chance of succeeding. Many non-US governments and companies have long complained about the long reach of US law in these and other matters (such as the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act).

    Even if you managed the sale, then the problem would be parts and maintenance.

    Quoting LGW (Reply 6):
    So how is is they can't buy western aircraft? Do you mean they can't buy new Western aircraft now or ever?

    The Boeings were all bought before the 1979 Revolution, the others bought second hand. IranAir would love to modernize their fleet, as cool as the 747-100 and 747SP are, they are ancient, but can't because of the sanctions.
     
    sabenapilot
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    RE: Cubana Il-96. What Are Their Plans? New Livery?

    Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:00 pm

    Quoting ContinentalFan (Reply 10):
    US law will reach this subsidiary too. While you could theoretically set up a third company that buys from Airbus, then resells to an embargoed country, if that company is controlled or has any significant ties to a US company, US law will reach it too. There have actually been cases of this happening that I can cite if you wish. Even if it was a subsidiary of a non-US company, the US can reach the parent company; in fact, it would go after any part of the sourcing chain it can reach.


    I think you are overestimating the strenght of US influence in Europe there. It will certainly be correct small nations will bow for the US pressure, but the EU is most likely the only bloc in the world which is able to say "f... off" to the US without being sanctioned.

    The EU has always been perfectly clear it does NOT recognize the US embargo and will defend its multinationals willing to do business with Cuba, thus challenging and busting the US embargo publicly on numerous occasions.

    Certainly the US justice would go after the third party company, but since that will not have ties with the US, all it can do is blacklist it. The US could in theory try to go after the parent company then (which will most certainly have ties in the US) but will refrain from doing so, knowing it is would create a serious political problem with the EU if the third company has been set up especially by the embargoed country and the EU foreign trade office.

    For instance, just as an illustration of how wide spread it is in Europe, have a look who runs hotels in Cuba: Iberostar, Riu, Sofitel etc...
    http://www.sofitel.com
    http://www.iberostar.com
    http://www.riu.com
    They are all hapiliy doing business with Cuba and the USA at the same time!!!

    [Edited 2005-10-05 15:09:19]
     
    Boeing777/747
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    RE: Cubana Il-96. What Are Their Plans? New Livery?

    Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:14 am

    How many Il-96s will Cubana going to operate?
     
    georgiabill
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    RE: Cubana Il-96. What Are Their Plans? New Livery?

    Thu Oct 06, 2005 11:53 am

    Good evening! I believe the initial order was for two, this may have been increased. The embargo in my humble opinion is a joke. The United States government has had dealings with many communist governments including China today! The United States blew an opportunity to work with Castro as they chose to side with a mafia controled government. Corrupt sides with Corrupt! Well done Washington you can talk with every other evil empire including North Korea, but you cannot sit down with a small country a mere 90 miles from the keys. Hello Washington wake up allow US companies and others do business in Cuba. You maybe pleasantly surprisied you may find Havana alot more friendlier than Pyongjang
     
    miamix707
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    RE: Cubana Il-96. What Are Their Plans? New Livery?

    Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:13 pm

    Quoting Xaphan (Reply 5):
    All in the eye of the beholder... I think it is striking and very impressive.

    I just hope they never adopt that s**t euro charter look. Those red engines and the "cubana" font look ridiculous but your right, some people like ugly things.

    Cubana still had a DC-8 until the 1980s if i'm not mistaken, but I'm guessing they coudln't keep it flying due to the difficulty of obtaining parts as the result of the embargo.

    Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 11):
    The EU has always been perfectly clear it does NOT recognize the US embargo and will defend its multinationals willing to do business with Cuba, thus challenging and busting the US embargo publicly on numerous occasions.

    I also dislike how the US gov.thinks othe countries should adopt the same laws for even stupid things such as the so called "musical digital piracy" etc and should be punished for not doing the right things (except those who have oil of course). On the other hand, the Europeans don't mind dealing with rogue governments and individuals such as Fidel Castro. Heck the Europeans in general would deal with the devil himself as long as they got some benefit out of the deal so, they're no better.

    Quoting Georgiabill (Reply 13):
    alot more friendlier than Pyongjang

    ..or Iraq, but well that's another story
     
    Boeing777/747
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    RE: Cubana Il-96. What Are Their Plans? New Livery?

    Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:51 pm

    Georgiabill, thank you for the Il-96 order answer. Some countries have a very hypocritical foreign policy.
     
    vincewy
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    RE: Cubana Il-96. What Are Their Plans? New Livery?

    Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:30 am

    What are the chances that other airlines (besides SU, 7B, E3, 3G, CU) would order IL-96? I would like to see more variations of liveries. IR, W5, EP (can't believe the name of this carrier) perhaps?
     
    Boeing777/747
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    RE: Cubana Il-96. What Are Their Plans? New Livery?

    Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:50 pm


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    b6sea
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    RE: Cubana Il-96. What Are Their Plans? New Livery?

    Sat Oct 08, 2005 11:36 pm

    Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 11):
    For instance, just as an illustration of how wide spread it is in Europe, have a look who runs hotels in Cuba: Iberostar, Riu, Sofitel etc...

    That's different, these companies aren't american companies and are free to do as they wish, AC flies to Cuba, and they aren't taking major flack from the US, because they aren't an American company and they have the legal right to do what they please.

    Quoting Georgiabill (Reply 13):
    The United States government has had dealings with many communist governments including China today

    Yes, but in reality China probably wasn't the best example... I mean honestly? What kind of communism are they practicing... the capitalist kind? But China never got nukes from Russia and pointed them at all our major cities now did they?

    Quoting Georgiabill (Reply 13):
    Well done Washington you can talk with every other evil empire including North Korea, but you cannot sit down with a small country a mere 90 miles from the keys. Hello Washington wake up allow US companies and others do business in Cuba. You maybe pleasantly surprisied you may find Havana alot more friendlier than Pyongjang

    The problem with Cuba is that we don't like Fidel for many reasons including but not limited to the whole nuke thing that people seem to forget about, the fact that he disposed of our puppet leader there, which wouldn't go over too well as you can imagine, and he routinely calls us "the great satin" or something of the like, which you don't see the Chinese doing, at least in public. And I believe the whole N. Korea thing is more a matter of, we dont want nukes hurled at the US or Japan because that could severly injure the world economy as a whole, who's the biggest player in that economy? -The US

    Where would Cubana fly the IL-96s when they get them? Canada? Europe?, I hate that rendering for a livery, like someone said earlier, it looks very eurochartery.
     
    Boeing777/747
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    RE: Cubana Il-96. What Are Their Plans? New Livery?

    Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:27 am


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    kappel
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    RE: Cubana Il-96. What Are Their Plans? New Livery?

    Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:26 am

    Quoting B6sea (Reply 18):
    Yes, but in reality China probably wasn't the best example... I mean honestly? What kind of communism are they practicing... the capitalist kind?

    Maybe now, but not when Nixon first went to China. IMHO if you really want to depose Castro, lift the sanctions, that takes a lot of wind out of his sails, and the people may be less inclined to follow him. I also think that the US is waiting till his death (by natural causes, they failed too many times to cause it otherwise), then move in on Cuba (not with milatary power, but bypolitical means)
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