cloudyapple
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Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:16 am

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ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:25 am

That livery is ultra retro on a 773ER. I kinda like it.
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boeingbus
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:27 am

a classic livery.... looks great!
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whitehatter
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:31 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 2):
a classic livery.... looks great!

My Indian friend (not a plane enthusiast) commented to me that it is very traditionalist and what an Indian would expect a plane to look like.

Apparently they don't go much for Eurowhite or odd schemes in India.
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WINGS
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:45 am

Congratulation to both Jet Airways and Boeing.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
That livery is ultra retro on a 773ER. I kinda like it.

I second that. Its always good to something diferent in the skies.

Regards,
Wings
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jacobin777
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:05 am

does that mean it will be the end for now for their -200LR order? shame considering that Boeing painted 9W's tail on their 777-200LR around the world tour. Sad

(9W's is on the last one on the left side)


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747400F
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:06 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 3):
Apparently they don't go much for Eurowhite or odd schemes in India

so how do you explain Kingfisher and Air INdia Express? They are rather "odd" - at least compared to Jet
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WestWing
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:09 am

I have probably been under a rock for the last three months. Sorry.
Wasn't the order mix supposed to have been six -200LRs and four -300ERs ?
When did that change ?

(Edited for clarity)

[Edited 2005-10-04 20:18:22]
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NYC777
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:16 am

Quoting WestWing (Reply 7):



Quoting WestWing (Reply 7):
I have probably been under a rock for the last three months but wasn't the order mix supposed to have been six 200LRs and four 300ERs ? Was there a change ?

You got it. I think 9W changed their minds between the time they announced the order and the time they signed the final contract. That's 9Ws perogative I suppose. Nonetheless it's still excellent news for both Boeing and 9W! I don't discount the possibility of them buying the 772LR later on.
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N60659
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:28 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 8):
I don't discount the possibility of them buying the 772LR later on.

I agree. They did specify 10 options as part of the original LoI. I suspect the current purchase is to satisfy immediate capacity.

-N60659
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WestWing
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:33 am

But can 9W operate unrestricted BOM to North America non-stops with -300ERs ?
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N328KF
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:38 am

777-300ER routes to North America

[Edited 2005-10-04 20:39:58]
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jacobin777
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:48 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 11):
777-300ER routes to North America

sure about LAX? it seems as if its stretching the -300ER to its limits!
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karan69
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:53 am

Quoting 747400F (Reply 6):
so how do you explain Kingfisher and Air INdia Express? They are rather "odd" - at least compared to Jet

I cant explain AIX but as for KingFisher, their logo is the same as on their famous beer bottles.

Coming to the topic, the 777-300ER seems the best bet nowadays and the timing of a 2007 arrival could'nt be perfect especially since the lease on the SA 343 should be ending around that time and as mentioned by 9W the 77W would immediately replace them on the BOM/DEL-LHR terminators and are going to be used for USA expansions.

What USA destinitions we shall be seeing in about two years.

BOM-JFK
BOM-LHR-SFO
DEL-LHR-IAD
BOM-LHR-LAX
BOM-LHR-ORD

*Assuming they hub at LHR

Also can the 77W make BOM-JFK profitabally without any range and payload issues, non-stop.

Ofcourse the 332 are reserved for secondary Indian markets and to service EU and S.E. Asian destinations.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 5):
does that mean it will be the end for now for their -200LR order? shame considering that Boeing painted 9W's tail on their 777-200LR around the world tour.

Really sad indeed, but then good for AI in a way as they will be able to perform routes like IAH/SFO non-stop from their BOM/DEL hubs.
 
N62NA
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:53 am

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 13):
What USA destinitions we shall be seeing in about two years.

BOM-JFK

Well, they were supposed to start BOM-BRU-EWR service this past June, but something happened to mess things up, unfortunately.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:56 am

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 13):
Really sad indeed, but then good for AI in a way as they will be able to perform routes like IAH/SFO non-stop from their BOM/DEL hubs.

true, as long as some come to SFO with it, I won't complain..but I would have enjoyed seeing some 9W's grace the 28's @SFO....
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N60659
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:13 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 14):
Well, they were supposed to start BOM-BRU-EWR service this past June, but something happened to mess things up, unfortunately.

There is that pesky lawsuit they have with Jet Airways Inc. which has prevented them from getting USDoT approval to operate to the US. It appears that the resolution to this problem is not too far away and they may start the BOM-BRU-EWR route from late October:

http://www.rediff.com/money/2005/sep/29jet.htm

-N60659
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COEWR787
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:58 am

Quoting N60659 (Reply 16):
It appears that the resolution to this problem is not too far away and they may start the BOM-BRU-EWR route from late October:

They are already listed among the airlines that use Terminal B at Newark Airport on all public signage.

/J
 
N1120A
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:26 pm

Quoting WestWing (Reply 7):
Wasn't the order mix supposed to have been six -200LRs and four -300ERs ?
When did that change ?

When the 77W got range upgrades

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 12):
oting N328KF (Reply 11):
777-300ER routes to North America


sure about LAX? it seems as if its stretching the -300ER to its limits!

It is more than 400nm less than the max range, so it should work

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 13):
Also can the 77W make BOM-JFK profitabally without any range and payload issues, non-stop.

Most likely
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Pomnath
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:34 pm

Non-stop for the sake of going non-stop seems to be losing favour lately. Especially with the Indian market.

A mid-way stopover is not just perceived as "of value" by many who comprise the traffic on this route, but also essential from the health and sanitation point of view.

Moreover, even with city-pairs between India and North America like BOM-xyz and DEL-abc, a large number of passengers would end up going beyond.

The thinking with at least one airline here in India is to try to run "multiple scissors" in and out of one-stop points in Europe and the Far East. BA and LH have been doing it for decades.

And with the increased advent in larger numbers of the high-spend Indian tourist, expect way-point stopover counties and their airports to pitch for Indian stopver business in a big way. Brussels is just the first, seems Seoul is working hard at it too.
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miamix707
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:37 pm

Those will be the best looking 777-300s out there if Jet Airways doesn't change their elegant livery.
 
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zeke
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:48 pm

Well done, its’ been a battle for them to prove that they are not funded by terrorists to the US government to get access.
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N1120A
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:03 pm

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 19):
but also essential from the health and sanitation point of view.

What are you talking about? There are longer flights than these already and they have no such issue
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sammyk
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:51 pm

Quoting 747400F (Reply 6):
so how do you explain Kingfisher and Air INdia Express? They are rather "odd" - at least compared to Jet

What the Indian consumer expects and what an airline paints on its planes are two different things. Not all will bow to the the consumers expectations of livery. Nothing wrong with trying to change that expectation.
 
Pomnath
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:12 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 22):
N1120A From France, joined Dec 2003, 6947 posts, RR: 70
Reply 22, posted Wed Oct 5 2005 08:03:15 UTC+2 and read 148 times:


Quoting Pomnath (Reply 19):
but also essential from the health and sanitation point of view.

What are you talking about? There are longer flights than these already and they have no such issue

+++

I know there are longer flights, and I have been on a few, as I am sure have you and many others too. I don't want to do a TPE-LAX or HKG-LAX again, would rather go via ICN or NRT, when originating from DEL or BOM, for example.

In most cases such flights (trans-Pacific, for example) are operated because mid-point stoppages of tourist interest don't exist. In the few where they do exist, the one-stop options have not folded up (Toronto - Delhi, Singapore - Los Angeles, for example) in fact they do better.

Research and validation on effects of ultra-long range flights is still a young subject, but there is enough on the topic to generate a healthy debate on whether such flights are good for crew as well as passenger health or not.

Especially for passengers travelling economy in cramped conditions. And that is what fills up the plane, not the First/Business or Crew beds.

And let us not even start talking about what the interiors of an aircraft running full on ANY route in the world feel and smell like after a 12 hour flight. Leave alone 16-18. One baby with a bad stomach is enough.
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N1120A
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:33 pm

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 24):
In most cases such flights (trans-Pacific, for example) are operated because mid-point stoppages of tourist interest don't exist. In the few where they do exist, the one-stop options have not folded up (Toronto - Delhi, Singapore - Los Angeles, for example) in fact they do better.

Um, you would be hard pressed to prove to me (or to Qantas) that LAX-HNL-SYD has ever done better that LAX-SYD non-stop (or other variations there of). You would also be hard pressed to prove to me that there is little tourist or business (particularly cargo) interest in Honolulu. This is also true of the 12 hour flights on FRA-LAX as opposed to the 14 hour flights with stops of FRA-JFK-LAX. SIN-LAX and SIN-EWR have underperformed for two reasons. First, SIN, though it is strong economically, is nowhere near the level or Tokyo. Second, the current aircraft in service have to take massive weight restrictions and are configured to such low density that, even with high yields, the flights cannot be as profitable as the significantly larger and/or higher density aircraft that can operate the stopping routes. Non-stop flights always have better economic potential that stopping flights. It is just a matter of being able to fill a plane to its designed density (or higher), and to fly it within its design range envelope.

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 24):
And let us not even start talking about what the interiors of an aircraft running full on ANY route in the world feel and smell like after a 12 hour flight.

I have flown plenty of 12+ hour eastbounds on Europe-LAX, with the aircraft full to the brim and still smelling fine. Beyond this, aircraft have been plying this sort of route for more than 30 years since the introduction of the 747 (especially since thre 747-200B) with little ill effect. This includes 14-15 hours non-stops on LAX-SYD since the advent of the 747SP. Yes, questions do exist as to exposure of flight crews and ultra-frequent fliers on extreme polar routes, though studies have been inconclusive. Still, North Pacific and North Atlantic routes, including 1 stop routings through ANC have never been shown to be harmful to one's health.
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cricket
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:41 pm

I really don't understand how people like 9W's retro livery - I think Jet's aircraft look rather boring. Then again, I end up seeing them a lot more often than the people who happen to like the livery. And as for the 77W, there is a rumour that AI might also change its order over completely to the 77W and skip the LR, but maybe a Boeing insider might know better.
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ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:52 pm

I like it on the 773 because it is a livery you'd expect on an old 747 or DC-10 or 707, so seeing it on a new plane like the 773 is "cool" while it is very boring on the 737s they fly.

That's why I like it.

Sort of like seeing the retro AA livery on the 757. I have a model of that one.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/326183/M/

Love to see a retro AA livery on a 788. That would rock. Anyone who does fake liveries want to give that one a try, hint hint, wink wink...  Smile
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bhxdtw
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:10 pm

Why does everything have to route via LHR ? or FRA ?
I thought 9W had plans for BHX !!.. Couldnt they use BHX as a jumping off point to the americas instead of LHR or FRA or BRU for instance.
AI does it with YYZ via BHX.
 
whitehatter
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:14 pm

Quoting 747400F (Reply 6):
so how do you explain Kingfisher and Air INdia Express?

I don't explain it because I'm not Indian.

He said to me that Indians have certain tastes, which is one reason why Air India's livery is the way it is and the proposed new livery didn't get taken up.

Personally I don't see anything wrong with Jet's scheme. It is traditional and maybe dated looking in Western terms, but if it is more to the taste of 9W's target market in India then fine.

Presumably they know what their customers like.
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cornish
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:29 pm

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 29):
He said to me that Indians have certain tastes, which is one reason why Air India's livery is the way it is and the proposed new livery didn't get taken up.

I reember Air India's new livery from the early 90s I think.. Much more modern looking, they painted a couple of Airbus's and 747s in it I seem to recall - but Indian customer reaction was so adverse that AI reverted back to the old traditional scheme that it continues with today.

Interesting as i thought no non-enthusiast would ever choose an airline by the colour scheme it was flying....
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DAYflyer
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:33 pm

Great news for both, but I too am confused over the 200LR issue. Is taht now a dead order, supplanted by this one?
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WestWing
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:37 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
When the 77W got range upgrades

But Boeing had announced the 7880nm -300ER long before 9Ws announcement of six -200LRs.
So I still think something else changed at 9W.

Don't get me wrong. I think it is good that 9W is getting ten -300ERs (instead of a mix of -200LR/-300ER). Makes it easier for maint, equipment swaps, allows greater pax payload etc.

Hopefully the -300ER can make the full-payload year-round non-stops between ( BOM, BLR ) and ( LAX, SFO/SJC, ORD, IAD/BWI, JFK/EWR), taking into account all the factors like winds/jetstream, ETOPS etc.

I don't include DEL because DEL is within range.

[Edited 2005-10-05 19:40:03]
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N328KF
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:46 am

Quoting WestWing (Reply 32):
Don't get me wrong. I think it is good that 9W is getting ten -300ERs (instead of a mix of -200LR/-300ER). Makes it easier for maint, equipment swaps, allows greater pax payload etc.

Equipment swaps, I can understand. The maintenance issue doesn't make sense, since there is very high commonality between the two.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:28 pm


Looks good in the 9W Livery.
I wonder why not B772LRs.
What type Engines on the B773ERs.
regds
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N328KF
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:42 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 34):
What type Engines on the B773ERs.

GEAE GE90-115B1s rated at 115Klbf.
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N1120A
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:49 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 35):
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 34):
What type Engines on the B773ERs.

GEAE GE90-115B1s rated at 115Klbf.

That is the only engine available
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miamix707
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:25 pm

Quoting Cricket (Reply 26):
I really don't understand how people like 9W's retro livery - I think Jet's aircraft look rather boring. Then again, I end up seeing them a lot more often than the people who happen to like the livery

I haven't seen a Kingfisher airplane yet and I can tell you that boring livery would look pretty lame on a 777-300.

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 29):
Personally I don't see anything wrong with Jet's scheme. It is traditional and maybe dated looking in Western terms, but if it is more to the taste of 9W's target market in India then fine.

Presumably they know what their customers like.

It seems to me, they didnt get brainwashed by a young marketing geek who said "oh that looks outdated".. as if that could be definited anyways. Props to 9Ws management for not changing the elegant look of their fleet.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 30):
reember Air India's new livery from the early 90s I think.. Much more modern looking

I remember it, it was a white plane with a red stripe on the tail..oh wow that's so modern! Many new cars out there today look modern. and their designs look like crap. It's no secret we reached the peak of creativity a while ago.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:37 am

Quoting COEWR787 (Reply 17):
They are already listed among the airlines that use Terminal B at Newark Airport on all public signage.

= This does not mean much. 9W signs have been in place since end June @ EWR.

-A.
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blrBird
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Sat Oct 08, 2005 9:33 am

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 37):
I haven't seen a Kingfisher airplane yet and I can tell you that boring livery would look pretty lame on a 777-300.

Here you go a Kingfisher 380
http://www.airbus.com/store/photolibrary/AIRCRAFT/CUSTOMER/A380/att00004670/media_object_image_lowres_A380-800-Kingfisher-03_MB_large.jpg
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miamix707
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:52 pm

that looks quite ok on the A380 since the red part seems too thick, so does the gold stripe making it look nicer. Let's see a real pic from the side, on a twinjet.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andreas Heilmann


pretty dang boring
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Sat Oct 08, 2005 2:42 pm

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 40):
pretty dang boring

Not when its parked on the Tarmec at BOM. Its Not  Smile
regds
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Pomnath
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:46 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
Yes, questions do exist as to exposure of flight crews and ultra-frequent fliers on extreme polar routes, though studies have been inconclusive

I have just received relevant parts of the findings of an ICAO seminar "Asia-Pacific ICAO, `Aviation Medicine and Personnel Licensing’.

It covers a variety of issues emanating out of long-haul flights, crew fatigue, personnel licencing for new-age issues on long-haul airplanes (viz: if you were a passenger, what would you really need, a doctor, para-medic or steward?)

More than anything else, it had a section on "unlawful interferences" and the added risks therein on long-haul flights. This includes some episodes of paranoid or schizo behaviur from otherwise un-impacted people, both crew and passenger.

So me, I'm going to stick with my one-hop one-stop preferably one-overnight halt flights from India to America.

Thank you, Jet Airways.
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stirling
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:22 pm

Quoting WestWing (Reply 10):
But can 9W operate unrestricted BOM to North America non-stops with -300ERs ?



Quoting N328KF (Reply 11):
777-300ER routes to North America

And here's another way of looking at them.

Routes To India Polar View

Which will all become possible due to new rules allowing more use of Russian airspace on the way to/from India

US DOT Press Release

Highlight:
United States, Russia Agree on Expanded Air Services


U.S. passenger and cargo carriers will be able to fly more routes to popular Asian destinations thanks to new airspace rights agreed to yesterday between the United States and Russia. The new agreement significantly increases the rights of U.S. carriers to fly over Russian airspace on flights between the United States and Asia, including via cross-polar routes.

U.S. cargo carriers will benefit from improved routings and expanded service opportunities on routes to their cargo hubs in Asia. And, for the first time, the agreement allows U.S. cargo and passenger carriers to transit Russian airspace on non-stop flights between the United States and India. U.S. carriers also will have expanded opportunities to use Russia’s cross-polar overflight routes on non-stop services to China.
Delete this User
 
trvyyz
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:34 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 34):

Looks good in the 9W Livery.

Did anyone notice that the grey belly is misssing, that's why this 9W scheme is looking much better. Time to paint the belly white.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Boeing Confirms 10x773 For Jet

Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:43 pm

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 42):
I have just received relevant parts of the findings of an ICAO seminar "Asia-Pacific ICAO, `Aviation Medicine and Personnel Licensing’

Any Link.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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