hardiwv
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LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:50 am

The Director of Lufthansa Consulting, Rafael Von Heeremann, spent the day in Belo Horizonte International Airport - CNF to examine the possibility of LH to start operations on the route FRA-CNF.

He stated that the relocation of flights from PLU to CNF has boosted the position of CNF as a strategic airport in Brazil. According to his words, LH is expected to start flights to CNF already in 2005/6. [LH currently operates two daily FRA-GRU flights A346 and B747].

Rgs,
 
Avianca
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:54 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
He stated that the relocation of flights from PLU to CNF has boosted the position of CNF as a strategic airport in Brazil. According to his words, LH is expected to start flights to CNF already in 2005/6. [LH currently operates two daily FRA-GRU flights A346 and B747].

Hi Hardiwv,

sounds really intresting! questin do you have any information on how is the plnd frequenzi and what kind of aircraft they would use? I can imagine A340-300.

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
incitatus
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:34 am

I heard the same but I find it unlikely to pan out.
The runway at CNF is not long enough to take off to Europe with a full load. CNF is 2700 ft above sea level requiring more runway than at GIG.
Also would LH serve CNF but not GIG?
If LH does start service to CNF, FRA-GIG-CNF or FRA-SSA-CNF are more likely. I don't have info on LH's long haul aircraft, but for a 767-300ER doing CNF-FRA, the plane will carry very little if any freight with all seats taken. I'd be surprised if the A340 take off performance is any better.
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Brasuca
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:15 am

Hardi, Como vai??  Smile

well...
It's hard to believe CNF can be LH's alternative, because of proximity with GRU and GIG.

* This news comes simultaneously with VARIG's new flight to MUC. So, would LH run a three weekly to Brazil as well?!
* VARIG is not so strong in CNF to cope with onwards connections.
I've been told that Lufthansa flights to SCL are doing very bad. I myself experienced a very empty flight on their A346. It will be no surprise if they drop or reduce SCL service and send pax to SCL with VARIG instead (B772). Then, the A346 can be deployed to CNF!!!
* The only NE city, which have already had regular flight to FRA it's FOR, with VARIG. Hence FRA-FOR-CNF can be a possibility as well.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 2):
I'd be surprised if the A340 take off performance is any better.

You're right. A340-300 take off and climb rate are terrible!
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JoFMO
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:55 am

Not even TAP flies to Belo H. I would really wonder if LH begins CFN over all the potential new routes to China and India which look much more promising to me.

I hope that they will not kick SCL out. LH should bring back the onestop FRA-EZE-SCL.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:18 pm

Hello Hardi ! Welcome back !

I heard something about that on GRU, but i will come with some inside information from LH in Brazil:

Nowadays GRU operation is UNprofitable for LH. The A340-600 flight SCL-GRU-FRA (mainly the leg SCL-GRU) faces VERY low loads (yesterday the flight SCL-GRU arrive at GRU with o n l y 20 pax on board), the time of departure of both flight to FRA are not good, and LH is loosing Biz pax to RG flights (from GIG and GRU), which keeps ranked 1st and 2nd on profitability at RG network.
LH Brazil is trying to find a new base (the other alternative is going back to GIG) and probably LH could drop SCL (using RG code-share on RG8920 GRU-SCL as this flight could receive a leg GIG-GRU nowadays run as a domestic flight)
I expect they run CNF, but i have my doubts that CNF can fill a plane for a non stop flight as German investments on Minas Gerais are very low.
I can imagine LH trying to do the same as AF in Rio, a non stop flight allowing connections.

Hardi, LH is trying to see alternatives for the 3 flights (2 LH and 1 Swiss) from GRU. It`s excessive as per LH words. The comment is that, they loose thousands of US$ every day.

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Brasuca
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:24 pm

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 4):
Not even TAP flies to Belo H.

It's likely to be all strategy of propaganda and marketing. This news was released by the company owner of the airport. And they need to promote CNF as they are taking measures to make the airport profitable and to see Belo Horizonte's thumbs up. Population is fiercely against them for relocating flights from downtown airport to CNF.
But good incentives are granted to airlines to fly to CNF. Who knows LH will grab this one.

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 4):
LH should bring back the onestop FRA-EZE-SCL.

Can you give reasons why?
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JoFMO
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:31 pm

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 6):
Can you give reasons why?

Because it is a shame that an airline like LH doesn't fly nonstop to EZE anymore. Just simply as that.
 
Brasuca
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:11 pm

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 7):
Because it is a shame that an airline like LH doesn't fly nonstop to EZE anymore. Just simply as that.

Yes, so simple to be practical!

Airlines are no longer interested in dots in the map or pride, but profitability. If SCL is unprofitable for LH, it will be dropped, unfortunately. And we can highly excpet Lufthansa will whether reduce or drop Santiago de Chile next year. Wait and see.

- Firstly, Lufthansa keeps high loads in their EZE flights. Adding a stop-over in GRU did not hurt their yields.
- Secondly, SCL will remain as a destination with a intermediate stop-over, be it in GRU or EZE. No difference for those who fly it.
- Thirdly, Star Alliance is more important for LH than you imagine and RG-LH need each other down here. Strengthening flights to Star Hubs is one target.

So, what's your point? LH should fly to unprofitable destinations because they shall maintain pride of being Lufthansa?
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JoFMO
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:21 pm

@Brasuca:

Don't over-interprete me. I just wish that LH can keep their destination SCL and that EZE comes back as nonstop. There are strong ties between Argentine and Germany and it was their longest nonstop route. So I wish that they can keep it.
AF seems to be much more succesfull in EZE and SCL. They fly daily CDG-EZE-SCL and will reintroduce 3 weekly nonstops to SCL for the northern winter season again.
IB is another question in this context, but LH should try to make possible what AF can do to every market where each one doesn't have a special advantage like to the former colonies etc.
 
Brasuca
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:47 pm

JoFMO,
It's ok. So it's just a wish. I too wish EZE and SCL had their own non-stop flight, but it's not feasible. As LipeGIG mentioned, that in October 3, LH's load in SCL-GRU was only 8% (yes, eight per cent!). So it's very unlikely they will continue flying to SCL.

Warte geduldig, changes will be made in Lufthansa and SWISS's routes to Brazil - Chile - Argentina, though I believe LH FRA-GRU-EZE will go on.
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RCS763AV
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:27 pm

LH will first start destinations such as XMN, LIM or BOG rather then going to Belo Horizonte. Pure propaganda fro the aiport owners that is.
 
A342
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:40 pm

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 3):
A340-300 take off and climb rate are terrible!

Actually only the climb is a bit slow, but for takeoff, have a look at the pics of my posts in the following disscussion : Min Runway Take Off Lengths For A330,A340,777,787 (by EI321 Sep 3 2005 in Tech Ops)
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
incitatus
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:21 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 11):
LH will first start destinations such as XMN, LIM or BOG rather then going to Belo Horizonte. Pure propaganda fro the aiport owners that is.

Adding a short leg to CNF like GRU-CNF is a lot cheaper than flying FRA-BOG.

The mid-size towns in South and SE Brazil (Belo, Curitiba, Porto Alegre) have reasonably large middle classes and diversified economy that may sustain limited international service. NE towns (Salvador, Recife, Fortaleza) have smaller middle classes and less diversified economy but can sustain international service due to tourism.

If FRA-GRU-SCL is getting only 20 pax on the SCL leg, FRA-GRU-CNF will do a lot better.
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Rafabozzolla
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:19 am

Hi,

I myself am from BHZ and I don´t see the point of a CNF-GRU-FRA flight, why not take RG instead and change planes in GRU, and not only to FRA but anywhere else in Europe where RG flies.

About the non-stop... hummm don´t know if it would work. As mentioned RG´s presence is very mild at CNF, the only usable connections would be BSB, VIX, and SSA, but I am not even sure if the schedules allow for that.

Anyway, unlikely but great if it happened.
 
incitatus
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:01 am

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 14):
I myself am from BHZ and I don´t see the point of a CNF-GRU-FRA flight, why not take RG instead and change planes in GRU, and not only to FRA but anywhere else in Europe where RG flies.

I've sided with the "I believe when I see it" too. But GRU-CNF lacks adequate capacity and a lot of the international connecting traffic spills over to CGH. Also, while RG and LH are partners, LH would not hesitate to make a move to take away traffic from RG.
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hardiwv
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:41 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 15):
But GRU-CNF lacks adequate capacity and a lot of the international connecting traffic spills over to CGH. Also, while RG and LH are partners, LH would not hesitate to make a move to take away traffic from RG.

Agree with this statement. Also, LH will have to react to AF/KL ever-increasing presence in the Brazilian market. Maybe a flight FRA-GIG-CNF could be initiated by LH.

There are rumours AF is investigating other markets in Brazil, and REC was mentioned as a possible future new destination after GRU is consolidated to 3 daily AF/KL flights (i.e. end-2006).

Also, LH will have to factor in RG new flight GRU-MUC. I dont expect LH just to watch and see without any reaction.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 11):
LH will first start destinations such as XMN, LIM or BOG rather then going to Belo Horizonte. Pure propaganda fro the aiport owners that is.

What I mentioned above was a statement by the head of LH Consultancy and was no propaganda.

Rgs,
 
Brasuca
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:37 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 12):
Actually only the climb is a bit slow, but for takeoff, have a look at the pics of my posts in the following disscussion

Thanks for the info

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 13):
The mid-size towns in South and SE Brazil (Belo, Curitiba, Porto Alegre) have reasonably large middle classes and diversified economy that may sustain limited international service.

In addition, one intercontinental flight from CNF would be a big propaganda by itself inside Belo Horizonte, thus very promising. Belo Horizonte is the third largest Brazilian city, after all.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
What I mentioned above was a statement by the head of LH Consultancy and was no propaganda.

And this statement itself is used as propaganda from INFRAERO, to make CNF image look better.
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Neo
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:27 am

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 17):
Belo Horizonte is the third largest Brazilian city, after all.

Which does not necessarily means is the 3rd largest airport/gateway in Brazil.

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 17):
And this statement itself is used as propaganda from INFRAERO, to make CNF image look better.

I agree. Used as pure propaganda for CNF!!!

I don't LH will step in CNF anytime soon with its on aircraft, specially with a nonstop service. There are just too many other better options out there.

Rgs,

Neo
 
Avianca
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:46 am

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 10):
Warte geduldig, changes will be made in Lufthansa and SWISS's routes to Brazil - Chile - Argentina, though I believe LH FRA-GRU-EZE will go on.

well I do not belive that LH will drop SCL as served destination, as SCL is a very traditional route for LH, even if they have problems in the moment.

I can imagine that they will re-schedule the EZE and SCL flights from GRU to give the Swiss pax arriving from ZRH Hub the oportunity to transfer on the flights. So Swiss would be back in EZE and SCL ( I am not sure if they ever did served SCL).

Who knows maybe they are also planing a additional flight from MUC to GRU to feeder the EZE and SCL flights.

I think LH has currently problems on the germany-chile market because carriers from north-america (AA,DL,AC) are in the moment very agressive on that market.

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
Brasuca
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:54 am

Quoting Neo (Reply 18):
Which does not necessarily means is the 3rd largest airport/gateway in Brazil.

Right! It is far from ranking as the third gateway or most important airport in Brazil, but CNF isn't performing the needs of Belo Horizonte either nowadays, be it big or not.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 19):
I think LH has currently problems on the germany-chile market because carriers from north-america (AA,DL,AC) are in the moment very agressive on that market.

Are AA, DL and AC currently offering flights from Germany to Chile via North America or are you having serious troubles with Geography?
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Avianca
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:00 am

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 20):
Are AA, DL and AC currently offering flights from Germany to Chile via North America or are you having serious troubles with Geography?

no I have no problems with my Geography... of course they are offering fares via there north american hubs or did you thought via the antarctic?
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
legacy135
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:06 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 13):
Adding a short leg to CNF like GRU-CNF is a lot cheaper than flying FRA-BOG

Yep....but adding the hope CCS-BOG isn't that bad either  Wink

Quoting Avianca (Reply 19):
So Swiss would be back in EZE and SCL ( I am not sure if they ever did served SCL).

Swissair did SCL for many years as they also did EZE, GIG and for a time also CCS. I'am not sure if Swiss Intl Air Lines ever went down to EZE and over to SCL. They did GIG but dropped it as well. It's amazing, all flights over the South Atlantic are consequently sold out, also in the more expensive classes and they dropped all those flights.

I could see a certain logic in a Germany - GRU - CNF flight. Greater São Paulo hosts the major part of Brazils industry. In Belo Horizonte is lots of industry as well. For companies it's simpler to recruite specialised professionals in BH than in many other places of the country as many graduate in Minas. Close to the airport, Lagoa Santa and arround setteled many international companies lately.
On the other hand a flight Germany - SSA - CNF wouldn't make that much sense for me: Salvador and the state of Bahia is a lovely tourist region, but not that kind of business people may travel for to BH. So it asks more for a flight to SSA done by LH subsidary Condor, as from Spain we don't see IB there either but AirEurope.
 
Avianca
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:13 am

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 22):
Yep....but adding the hope CCS-BOG isn't that bad either

oh yes they could upgrade to a B747-400 daily... and go FRA-CCS-BOG-CCS-FRA. They did the routing for years.

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 22):
I'am not sure if Swiss Intl Air Lines ever went down to EZE and over to SC

yes Swiss went down to EZE but not to SCL as per my information. I think they quit the EZE leg 1 or 2 years ago. I can remember because I had often cargo from Fra via ZRH to EZE.

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 22):
So it asks more for a flight to SSA done by LH subsidary Condor

isnt Condor not already operating the route, or will start the flight in November? At least I have seen often very good fares for 250Euo FRA-SSA-FRA including Taxes...

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
Brasuca
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:15 am

.
If Lufthansa decides reducing SCL to 3~4x weekly, then they shall add CNF instead, 3~4x weekly to test the market. It's quite simple and with no major changes.


However, if LH wants to increase capacity to both Brazil and EZE, then a totally new configuration shall take place.


Reasons why Lufthansa may fly to Belo Horizonte:

  • As a result of flights arrangement, because of bad performance in SCL.
  • If SCL is axed, then layover in CNF is way cheaper than in GRU.
  • To increase capacity to Brazil, as VARIG announced their third flight to Germany.
  • CNF is a totally new market: the third largest Brazilian city and with no intercontinental flight, plus with an industrial park surrounding the airport, which can help with Cargo.
  • CNF airport shall subsidize a considerable amount of operating cost of an international airline, by lower taxation.
  • São Paulo (and relatively Rio de Janeiro) is (are) already well served by RG-LH and new cities shall be planned.
  • Last year, when Lufthansa announced changes in their flights to GRU, EZE, GIG and SCL routes, they mentioned one deadline at the end of this year to decide if the flights will continue or not like this. And now, at the end of the year, Lufthansa “coincidentally” visits CNF airport.


Reasons why Lufthansa might not fly to Belo Horizonte:

  • The closeness to GRU and GIG may not be one feasible option and ranks as one big hindrance in CNF for all airlines.
  • Very poor onwards connections from CNF, if they do rely on O&D at CNF.
  • With no flights arrengement, it's totally untenable to fly non-stop (they haven't stated anything whether it will be non-stop or not).
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Avianca
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:18 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 23):
isnt Condor not already operating the route, or will start the flight in November

they will start the 3th of November...

regards
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
hardiwv
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:21 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 19):
So Swiss would be back in EZE and SCL ( I am not sure if they ever did served SCL).

I dont think LX will ever land in SCL and or EZE again. The only remaining LX destination in Latin America is GRU, operated 5 x week A343.

Quoting Neo (Reply 18):
Which does not necessarily means is the 3rd largest airport/gateway in Brazil.

Indeed, but with the relocation CNF is quickly becoming a major aiport in Brazil again. If you combine PLU + CNF traffic it would rank as Brazil's 6th major airport after CGH, GRU, BSB, GIG, and SSA. CNF is expected to be Brazil's 5th airport in 2006. As mentioned above, Belo Horizonte is Brazil's third biggest city and metropolitan area.

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 22):
Yep....but adding the hope CCS-BOG isn't that bad either

Not so sure. In Brazil LH has the support an synergies of Star partnet RG.

I do expect news from LH regarding the Brazilian market considering AF/KL recent movements. AF is extremely successful in Brazil both in GRU and GIG, and is currently looking into the possibility of a third destination (REC is the front runner). I would not rule out CNF as a future LH destination.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 5):
Nowadays GRU operation is UNprofitable for LH.

GRU is profitable, however, the legs EZE and SCL are extremely unprofitable and operating with very low loads. The flights to/from GRU are always full in all classes, but the plane operates with low loads on the GRU-SCL and GRU-EZE legs. Maybe LH should leave SCL and EZE for RG to operate and simply terminate the two daily flights in GRU.

Rgs,
 
Avianca
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:25 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 26):
I dont think LX will ever land in SCL and or EZE again. The only remaining LX destination in Latin America is GRU, operated 5 x week A343.

as mentioned of course not direclty with Swiss airplanes... the passengers could connect on the LH flights from GRU to EZE and SCL.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 26):
GRU is profitable, however, the legs EZE and SCL are extremely unprofitable and operating with very low loads.

SCL could be but not EZE, EZE is always very good booked from FRA. Mostly full.

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
hardiwv
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:36 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 27):
EZE is always very good booked from FRA. Mostly full.

Most of the flight is now occupied with pax to GRU. EZE gets no more than 40% load.

Rgs,
 
Avianca
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:41 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 28):
Most of the flight is now occupied with pax to GRU. EZE gets no more than 40% load.

look the booking classes FRA-EZE

____________________________

Lufthansa German
Flight: 502
Departs
Frankfurt Am Main (FRA)
November 1
9:40 pm Arrives
Buenos Aires (EZE)
November 2 (Next day)
9:10 am Notes
Cabin class: F2 A0 C9 D2 Z0 Y2 B0 M0 H0 Q0 V0 W0 S0
Meal:
Distance: 7125 mi
Stops: 1
Flight Time: 15:30

Lufthansa German
Flight: 502
Departs
Frankfurt Am Main (FRA)
November 2
9:40 pm Arrives
Buenos Aires (EZE)
November 3 (Next day)
9:10 am Notes
Cabin class: F9 A9 C9 D4 Z2 Y3 B0 M0 H0 Q0 V0 W0 S0
Meal:
Distance: 7125 mi
Stops: 1
Flight Time: 15:30


Lufthansa German
Flight: 502
Departs
Frankfurt Am Main (FRA)
November 3
9:40 pm Arrives
Buenos Aires (EZE)
November 4 (Next day)
9:10 am Notes
Cabin class: F0 A0 C0 D0 Z0 Y5 B0 M0 H0 Q0 V0 W0 S0
Meal:
Distance: 7125 mi
Stops: 1
Flight Time: 15:30
Boeing 747Boeing 747
_______________________

what say the loads are more than good!

regards
Avianca

[Edited 2005-10-05 23:45:15]
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
hardiwv
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:59 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 29):
what say the loads are more than good!

Avianca, the above loads are mainly for GRU because EZE is sold on the GRU route. LH system sells EZE and GRU together. EZE, in excellent days, gets no more than 40% loads. If you look, most pax with leave the aircraft in GRU and normally only about 20% load continues to EZE.

Try to look in the sytem, for the same dates, the same LH flight, GRU-EZE: and you will note that the flight is wide open!

Rgs,
 
Avianca
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:03 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 30):
Try to look in the sytem, for the same dates, the same LH flight

yes you are correct

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 30):
EZE, in excellent days, gets no more than 40% loads

well I would say 40% loads is reall good, they could run the EZE flight without a problem nonstop with an A340-300 and get it full.

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
s.p.a.s.
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:30 am

Avianca,

Swiss never flew to SCL. The SCL-GRU-SCL was dropped during the Swissair times. I used to work for the company (SWR) back then and loads were nice (40% SCL - 60% GRU onwards ZRH) and lots of cargo.

Regarding LH and CNF I don't see it happening as a direct flight, but it could work as CNF-GIG-FRA with A340s. Please note that Belo Horizonte has some German colony there and at least one big German company (V&M Do Brasil, subsidiary of V&M Tubes, partly owned by Mannesmannröhren-Werke), not to mention Fiat and IIRC a big medicine lab close to Belo Horizonte, so some high yeld traffic might be waiting for a direct link with Europe.

Cheers

Salz
"ad astra per aspera"
 
incitatus
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:11 am

Quoting Neo (Reply 18):
I agree. Used as pure propaganda for CNF!!!

I don't usually go after people's language skills, but please, propaganda in English is very different from propaganda in Portuguese. Propaganda has a very negative connotation! I believe the "propaganda" users here mean "advertisement" or "self-promotion".

If LH is able to attract a considerable share of CNF-Europe, they may be able to sustain service. Besides Mannesmann, several European businessess have close ties to the mining industry around Belo Horizonte. Also Minas Gerais is a big exporter of illegal immigrants.  Smile
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Avianca
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:16 am

Also LH could make a good amount of money regarding Cargo. The rates from Germany(europe) - CNF are very high over € 2,50 + Surcharges per kg, compared to GRU € 1,00 - 1,50 + Surcharges it is the double. The eastbound flight rates should be under $1,00 + Surcharges but also this would help to make some yield on the flights.

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
LipeGIG
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:05 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 26):
GRU is profitable, however, the legs EZE and SCL are extremely unprofitable and operating with very low loads. The flights to/from GRU are always full in all classes, but the plane operates with low loads on the GRU-SCL and GRU-EZE legs. Maybe LH should leave SCL and EZE for RG to operate and simply terminate the two daily flights in GRU.

Agree that GRU-FRA is profitable, but loads on GRU-SCL (13 pax today!) and GRU-EZE (72 pax), corrupts profits on FRA-GRU leg. I imagine that LH could use RG/Star Aliance code-share on GRU-SCL, sending the plane to CNF or other markets. You're right about the two daily, better to terminate at GRU.

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 24):
Reasons why Lufthansa may fly to Belo Horizonte:

LH is looking for a lot of European Corporates in CNF area: Vallourec/Mannesmann AG, Arcelor, Fiat, TNT Logistics, Sipcam, ESAB, FL Brasil,Comau Brazil, Paracatu River, and Iveco.
and also others controlled by foreign capital like BHP Billiton, CBCC, Black & Decker, Cenibra. Also CNF keeps a strong brazilian controlled industry like Usiminas/Cosipa Group, Martins and others. Minas is 13% of Brazilian GDP.
LH could allow pax from CNF to connect on FRA to MXP, CDG, LHR, MAD and even LIS.

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 24):
Reasons why Lufthansa might not fly to Belo Horizonte:

The closeness to GRU and GIG may not be one feasible option and ranks as one big hindrance in CNF for all airlines.

.

Concerning to be closer to GIG and GRU, it's a problem but imagine you as a pax on CNF. Would you do a CNF-GRU-MXP or a CNF-FRA-MXP ?
CNF sends about 220 pax per day to GRU plus about 200 from PLU (RG keeps PLU-GRU service)

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
LipeGIG
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:17 am

Quoting S.P.A.S. (Reply 32):
Regarding LH and CNF I don't see it happening as a direct flight, but it could work as CNF-GIG-FRA with A340s. Please note that Belo Horizonte has some German colony there and at least one big German company (V&M Do Brasil, subsidiary of V&M Tubes, partly owned by Mannesmannröhren-Werke), not to mention Fiat and IIRC a big medicine lab close to Belo Horizonte, so some high yeld traffic might be waiting for a direct link with Europe.

Don't forget Arcelor.
I agree with a CNF-GIG-FRA flight as LH keeps a very strong base of customers at Rio, the RG flight GIG-FRA all the days face overbooking. RG will run 3 times GRU-MUC and LH could run a 4 times FRA-GRU-CNF and 3 times FRA-GIG-CNF. It will keep the GRU capacity, create CNF market and improve GIG operations.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 26):
I do expect news from LH regarding the Brazilian market considering AF/KL recent movements. AF is extremely successful in Brazil both in GRU and GIG, and is currently looking into the possibility of a third destination (REC is the front runner). I would not rule out CNF as a future LH destination.

Hardi, i believe AF is waiting for the Gol agreement (some info on Brazilian newspaper O ESTADO DE SAO PAULO says that Delta expect to start the code-share in up to 30 days) to decide where to fly a new flight. It could improve GRU, or even create a new flight to GIG (where the 744 is always full) as connections will be provided to/from Rio.
A charter company called Star Airlines will run a weekly REC-CDG flight and imagine to run a regular twice weekly service to REC from CDG on 2006.

Regards
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
PPVRA
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:30 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 26):
I do expect news from LH regarding the Brazilian market considering AF/KL recent movements. AF is extremely successful in Brazil both in GRU and GIG, and is currently looking into the possibility of a third destination (REC is the front runner). I would not rule out CNF as a future LH destination.

Very good point. With Varig in the current financial conditions, Star has a very shaky leg in South America. AF is the only other european carrier that poses significant risk to LH in this market because of AF's CDG hub. Not even IB or BA poses the same threat. LH could see what they have now shrink enourmously if RG shuts down.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 33):
Quoting Neo (Reply 18):
I agree. Used as pure propaganda for CNF!!!

I don't usually go after people's language skills, but please, propaganda in English is very different from propaganda in Portuguese. Propaganda has a very negative connotation! I believe the "propaganda" users here mean "advertisement" or "self-promotion".

I know what you are saying, but what's the real difference anyways? Big grin

Quoting S.P.A.S. (Reply 32):

Long time no see, welcome back!  Smile

Cheers
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
incitatus
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:52 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 35):
LH could allow pax from CNF to connect on FRA to MXP, CDG, LHR, MAD and even LIS.



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 35):
Concerning to be closer to GIG and GRU, it's a problem but imagine you as a pax on CNF. Would you do a CNF-GRU-MXP or a CNF-FRA-MXP ?

It's not only those run-of-the-mill RG destinations such as MXP and CDG. CNF-FRA can open up 1-stops to even China and Japan, which is something AA won't be able to do with the upcoming CNF-MIA.

I'm still hoping someone will shed light on the max take off weight of an A340 at CNF which is 9800 ft long 2700 ft above sea level.
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hardiwv
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:52 pm

Quoting Avianca (Reply 31):
well I would say 40% loads is reall good

Only on excellent days. Average loads to EZE is only 20% and in most days even less. However, I do agree that LH could operate FRA-EZE A343 nonstop (maybe one of the legs could be daylight to minimize costs). I also dont think SCL will survive (instead LH could continue one of the two GRU flights to CNF and the other to GIG).

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 38):
CNF-FRA can open up 1-stops to even China and Japan, which is something AA won't be able to do with the upcoming CNF-MIA.

Correct. CNF is a promissing airport now that PLU flights were relocated.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 36):
AF is waiting for the Gol agreement to decide where to fly a new flight. It could improve GRU, or even create a new flight to GIG (where the 744 is always full) as connections will be provided to/from Rio.

AF has already improved GRU (3 extra A324 weekly); GRU will get two daily AF flights in 2006.

As for GIG, indeed, I flew AMS-CDG-GIG business return and the flight was FULL in ALL classes (AF flight to GIG is FULL ALL year-around). Business class ticket must be booked at least one week in advance and well in advance for Fridays. GIG is a big money-maker for AF. It is impressive how AF has carved out a market niche in GIG. A second daily flight to GIG by AF may no be feasible, as it could easily corrupt yields on this very profitable flight considering there is almost no competition (only RG, TP and IB nonstop). I think AF would go for another destination such as REC or SSA instead of increasing GIG service.

Rgs,
 
LipeGIG
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:00 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 39):
As for GIG, indeed, I flew AMS-CDG-GIG business return and the flight was FULL in ALL classes (AF flight to GIG is FULL ALL year-around). Business class ticket must be booked at least one week in advance and well in advance for Fridays. GIG is a big money-maker for AF. It is impressive how AF has carved out a market niche in GIG. A second daily flight to GIG by AF may no be feasible, as it could easily corrupt yields on this very profitable flight considering there is almost no competition (only RG, TP and IB nonstop). I think AF would go for another destination such as REC or SSA instead of increasing GIG service.

Hardi, i will wait for your NEV trip report !  Smile

Concerning to AF, makes no sense the efforts they are expending to start the code-share agreement with Gol at GIG. With a full flight as you realize (and lets remember its low season!) and plus a big number of connecting flights, demand will grow probably 40%. I can't believe they start the code share and after open a new route from a city where they need to quite start from zero. Loads could be hurt in the begining ( in fact they face this problem nowadays at GRU, where they offer connections, trying to sell C and Y tickets for the second flight with Low prices ), but they could keep with the market. AF brand in Rio is very strong.
Remember that they improve the route with a 23% increase in seats offered and the market took this improvement in only 20 days in a very quick response! Almost 90 seats to a single market, imagine adding CNF, VIX, SSA, BSB, GYN, CPQ and even CGH. Numbers are all the days higher than 420 pax.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 39):
Only on excellent days. Average loads to EZE is only 20% and in most days even less. However, I do agree that LH could operate FRA-EZE A343 nonstop (maybe one of the legs could be daylight to minimize costs). I also dont think SCL will survive (instead LH could continue one of the two GRU flights to CNF and the other to GIG).

Agree 100%.

Abraços,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
hardiwv
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:29 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 40):
Hardi, i will wait for your NEV trip report !

I got so disapointed with AF NEV that I lost I my motivation for a trip report...I can only tell you one thing: I will do my best to avoid AF in the future. [I arrived on Sunday morning in AMS and my luggage is still missing in Paris due to AF luggage handling strike]. This is only part of the horrible AF service...KLM is much better.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 40):
Concerning to AF, makes no sense the efforts they are expending to start the code-share agreement with Gol at GIG. With a full flight as you realize (and lets remember its low season!) and plus a big number of connecting flights, demand will grow probably 40%

You are right. AF in GIG is a typical case o success story. It is completely amazing how AF has managed to become so strong in GIG. They must be doing loads of money there...

You are right, maybe even before GRU gets two daily AF flight, we could see GIG expanded to additional 3 flights in the same fashion of GRU. If AF sign an agreement with GOL, which dominates T1, demand on AF's GIG flight would increase even further therefore requesting expansion in capacity.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 40):
, imagine adding CNF, VIX, SSA, BSB, GYN, CPQ and even CGH. Numbers are all the days higher than 420 pax.

Indeed, there is still a lot of potential for AF to expand in GIG. Btw, the first indications are that DL ATL-GIG are also showing strong bookings and yields, although it is too early for any conclusion.

Rgs,
 
LipeGIG
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:19 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 41):
I got so disapointed with AF NEV that I lost I my motivation for a trip report...I can only tell you one thing: I will do my best to avoid AF in the future. [I arrived on Sunday morning in AMS and my luggage is still missing in Paris due to AF luggage handling strike]. This is only part of the horrible AF service...KLM is much better.

Wow... now i'm concerned with my World Cup Trip!

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 41):
Indeed, there is still a lot of potential for AF to expand in GIG. Btw, the first indications are that DL ATL-GIG are also showing strong bookings and yields, although it is too early for any conclusion.

Loads are about 50 to 60% during week days, 85 to 100% on fridays and saturdays and about 70% on sundays. DL is very happy with high season loads: For many days on january, there are no space on Biz class.
Also, the number of Premiun seats sold by DL increased in more than 60% and DL fares for Biz in Brazil-ATL are VERY high (about USD 7,000).

Rgds
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
TP727
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:10 am

I strongly doubt there is a market for a nonstop CNF-FRA flight, maybe if it´s just once or twice a week. A few airlines have tried to fly long distance out of CNF in a short past (AA was the most persistent airline), but any of them faced success.
I don´t think the runway would be a problem for the majority of acft out there. Maybe for a fully loaded 747, or a A345/6 it would be a bit short, for all the rest i think it would be just fine.
An airline flying to CNF has to also considered the pax that are connecting to other cities, which is a very poor scenario in that airport, as stated above.
Not sure if RG still does, but one of their flights to FRA started at CNF (it was CNF-GRU-FRA) with a 777. Once i took that flight, and for my surprise (RG's website showed the 777 and plane doing it) the plane that made it that day was a 737-500. At the time i asked the F/A and the answer i got was that in most days they were using smaller planes due to very low loads. That for sure would piss off a pax who was on his way to FRA and paid biz class tickets.
In my case i only paid for Y, but i would refuse to board that plane if i had paid for the biz seat.
If i had to bet on a european route, nonstop, out of CNF, i would put my money on LIS, with a plane not greater than a 767-300, and only biz and econ. class available.
A flight out of Governador Valadares to the US should work for a while, just until the city went all empty. Just a joke, don´t mean to hurt anyone´s feelings.
Anyway, just expressing my thoughts.
Nice landings for every one.
TP727
 
hardiwv
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:20 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 42):
Wow... now i'm concerned with my World Cup Trip!

Indeed, you should. AF is horrible...the treatment they give to top-tier pax in GIG is well below average. AF's GIG ground staff has to learn good manners. That's what you get when an airline runs a oligopoly (i.e. routes from/to GIG dont have much competition).

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 42):
Loads are about 50 to 60% during week days, 85 to 100% on fridays and saturdays and about 70% on sundays. DL is very happy with high season loads

Tks for the info, altought the real test will come in the low season 2006.

Quoting TP727 (Reply 43):
I don´t think the runway would be a problem for the majority of acft out there

Correct. Runaway wont be a problem in CNF for the LH's A334/6.
 
A342
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RE: LH Considers FRA-CNF Nonstop Flight

Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:23 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 44):
Correct. Runaway wont be a problem in CNF for the LH's A334/6.

I agree, 3000 meters is certainly enough.
Exceptions confirm the rule.