by188b
Posts: 549
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 10:46 am

Changes To Uk Fifth Freedom Rights

Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:21 pm

BRITAIN is to open up on what is traditionally known in airline terms as “fifth freedoms”. In other words, overseas airlines, subject to approval in each case, will be able to pick up and drop off passengers en-route in the UK. This will be of particular value for regional airports, an example being American Airlines’ new Newcastle service from New York, which could be extended to a continental point, the airline able to sell the mainland Europe – Newcastle sector on its own merits. For practical purposes it will not make that much difference, as EU member airlines have this right in any event, and the North Atlantic carriers such as Air India and Kuwait have flown to New York from Heathrow for years. Where there might be real interest is from airlines such as Qatar, Emirates, Qantas and Singapore who might want to establish flights in North America via say Birmingham. Traffic rights in Canada and the US would have to be permitted. The British government says the new ruling is consistent with the UK's general approach towards liberalising its bilateral air services agreements. But each application will have to be approved! http://www.dft.gov.uk top

Source: ABTN travel news http://www.abtn.co.uk/

So does this mean that airlines such as EK will intoduce new sevices such as DXB-GLA-JFK or DXB-MAN-YYZ for example?

[Edited 2005-10-05 15:21:50]
next flights : BD LHR-TXL J, FR SXF-STN Y, SN BRU-LHR Y, MA LHR-BUD Y, BA BUD-LHR J, BA LCY-SNN-JFK J, BA JFK-LHR J, BA
 
BigOrange
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RE: Changes To Uk Fifth Freedom Rights

Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:35 pm

But let a US Airline try for 5th freedom rights from the UK to Europe and see how quickly they get rejected!

This is the major issue with the Bermuda II agreement for the last 20 or so years!
 
JoFMO
Posts: 1840
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:55 am

RE: Changes To Uk Fifth Freedom Rights

Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:17 am

Why should Germany give any US carrier traffic rights between Britain and Germany as long as no german carrier gets rights between Pennsylvania and Texas?

Does this new roule also include LHR?
 
tpaewr
Posts: 396
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RE: Changes To Uk Fifth Freedom Rights

Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:32 am

Perhaps since since Texas and Pennsylvania don't hold seats at the U.N. nor have their own armies and navies. In fact unlike the U.K. and Germany , Texas and Pennsylvania use the same currency.
 
whitehatter
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Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: Changes To Uk Fifth Freedom Rights

Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:39 am

Quoting Tpaewr (Reply 3):
Perhaps since since Texas and Pennsylvania don't hold seats at the U.N. nor have their own armies and navies. In fact unlike the U.K. and Germany , Texas and Pennsylvania use the same currency.

Schengen. Go look it up.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
JoFMO
Posts: 1840
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:55 am

RE: Changes To Uk Fifth Freedom Rights

Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:02 am

Europe has a singel aviation market as has the USA. Nobody should get 5th freedom rights inside the EU who doesn't give our carriers the rights in their aviation market.

Simple as that.
 
stirling
Posts: 3897
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:00 am

RE: Changes To Uk Fifth Freedom Rights

Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:06 am

Schengen or no Schengen,
The members of the European Union are sovereign nations.

When The US entered Iraq; the US States did not have a choice to abstain from sending troops. All states were, and still are required to join in the effort.
Conversely,
Spain, Netherlands, Poland, Italy, UK, etc chose to join the coalition.
Germany, France chose not to.
That is their right as independent nations.

The US Civil War of the 19th Century set the precedent for the years and decades to follow in how the US system of government would operate.

France and the Netherlands refusal to ratify the constitution is a present-day parallel to this evolution process churning within the EU....thankfully it has a been a bloodless row, unlike our most painful experience at "Keeping the Union together" (By the way, it wasn't about Slavery)

As yet, the EU does not function as one central body.

The EU and USA are two completely different political models.
The EU is not the "United States of Europe"....while this may be the ultimate goal, it is not the way things are today.
Until such time, comparing the United Kingdom and Germany to Pennsylvania and Texas is like comparing apples and dog turds.

So for now, Fifth-Freedom flights from the US have no legal right for landing within the borders of the nation. Beyond those borders is another story, but for now, until the EU system evolves further, the way it is, is the way it is.
Delete this User
 
whitehatter
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RE: Changes To Uk Fifth Freedom Rights

Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:11 am

Quoting BigOrange (Reply 1):
But let a US Airline try for 5th freedom rights from the UK to Europe and see how quickly they get rejected!

Nope, try again.

Bermuda Two is the deal which covers operations into and out of LHR.

PK is one airline which has fifth freedom rights from a UK airport to the USA and Pakistan. US airlines operating into airports other than LHR could easily apply for rights and get them. Just as some south american airlines can offer tickets within the EU, and Singapore Airlines can offer tickets for ZRH-MAN twice a week.

If AA applied for rights on its Gatwick operations or up at MAN then they would not be restrained. Same with DL or US, or any other operator doing services which do not use LHR.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
JoFMO
Posts: 1840
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:55 am

RE: Changes To Uk Fifth Freedom Rights

Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:26 am

Are we talking about aviation or foreign policies?

In terms of aviation the EU and the USA are of the same kind. Both are single aviation markets. The market regulation is fully equal. You might say that some countries in Europe still have border contrals, but that doesn't change the layout of the market.

Therefore I am not willing to give any rights to countries don't give us the same rights.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Changes To Uk Fifth Freedom Rights

Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:44 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 4):

Schengen. Go look it up.

sorry WhiteHatter - the UK is not actually in Schengen - however I do agree that since the EU is in theory a single market rights between the UK and the rest of the EU are really cabotage rather than 5th freedom- and as you said no EU carrier is going to get cabotage rights within the US - so why should US carriers get them within the EU
 
rdwootty
Posts: 689
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:28 am

RE: Changes To Uk Fifth Freedom Rights

Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:53 am

I am excited at the prospect of more services from BHX as the airlines can link with a european sector to and from BHX giving a midday outward and afternoon return..
Lets see>
CO Houston-Birmingham-Aberdeen
AA Dallas-Birmingham-Copenhagen
DL Atlanta-Birmingham-Munich
EK Dubai-Birmingham-Chicago
SK Oslo-Birmingham-Boston
NW MSP(cant spell minneapolis)-Birmingham-Vienna
and lost more

What a great opportunity for us all to increase travel opportunities
 
mainMAN
Posts: 1636
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:55 am

RE: Changes To Uk Fifth Freedom Rights

Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:57 am

Quoting BY188B (Thread starter):
So does this mean that airlines such as EK will intoduce new sevices such as DXB-GLA-JFK or DXB-MAN-YYZ for example?

(Politics aside).......potentially they could, yes. The Manchester Airport Group's head of government and industry affairs, Jonathan Bailey, said that this wouldn't necessarily open the floodgates to more services, but that they were expecting 'several' new services. He used Air China MAN-ARN-PEK as an example of this.

It was also reported in the Travel Trade Gazette that Malaysian had initially wanted to operate their JFK services through MAN, but opted for ARN instead, prior to this change of policy.

What I'd specifically like to see happening is, for example, a joint year-round LH/AC/BD (!) service between DUS-MAN-YYZ. There must be loads of possibilities like this.
 
EK156
Posts: 646
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RE: Changes To Uk Fifth Freedom Rights

Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:27 am

Quoting BY188B (Thread starter):
So does this mean that airlines such as EK will intoduce new sevices such as DXB-GLA-JFK or DXB-MAN-YYZ for example?

I think if this law passes, EK will jump at the opportunity. They might get LGW as well, but I don't think they would get LHR. But they would definitely go for BHX, MAN and GLA. This would make UK a regional hub like SIN for EK. Imagine the prospects!!!

Also QR would jump at the opportunity as well as EY = Etihad who are already getting 5th Freedom on their new route from Abu Dhabi to Toronto via Brussels!!!
 
gkirk
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Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Changes To Uk Fifth Freedom Rights

Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:45 am

CO could use this to fly IAH-MAN-ABZ using a 767-200ER and fill all the front end from ABZ  Wink
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
mainMAN
Posts: 1636
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:55 am

RE: Changes To Uk Fifth Freedom Rights

Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:47 am

Quoting Rdwootty (Reply 10):
NW MSP(cant spell minneapolis)-Birmingham-Vienna

Correct!!

I really think that the BHX could support more services to North America....Chicago especially. Look at how CO have tapped into the demand from BHX, and how fast they've grown. And EK too.

bmi obviously don't agree with me, but if they had wanted to make some money and gain loads of credibility, they could have started BHX-ORD and BHX-MCO before someone else invariably will. (I think I might have said this before once or twice)

Quoting EK156 (Reply 12):
Also QR would jump at the opportunity as well as EY = Etihad who are already getting 5th Freedom on their new route from Abu Dhabi to Toronto via Brussels!!!

It all sounds good to me.....EK from MAN to LAX....?!
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13760
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Changes To Uk Fifth Freedom Rights

Thu Oct 06, 2005 9:01 am

So, are all the gung ho germans clamoring to let BA fly HAMBURG-MUNICH? Are the french ready for EK PARIS-NICE?

That's just Texas to Pennsylvania, right?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
NetworkDoc
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:28 am

RE: Changes To Uk Fifth Freedom Rights

Thu Oct 06, 2005 9:08 am

Whatever your political stance on this, fifth freedom flights have overall *not* been found to be that greatly competitively effective. Please see the source below for scientific evidence (I cannot provide a link as this journal is subscription-only, but if you have an Athens logon, you can probably access it):

Mathieu Weber and John Dinwoodie (2000) Fifth freedoms and airline alliances. The role of fifth freedom traffic in an understanding of airline alliances, Journal of Air Transport Management, Volume 6, Issue 1 , Pages 51-60.

Therefore, I am not getting too excited about all this for now. The real test will come once (if!) the EU and the US manage to negotiate the much talked about Common Transatlantic Aviation Area. (Looking at this thread, I can't wait for the thread on the CTAA if agreed/ in negotiation!  fight  )
Flown: AB/BA/BD/BI/CX/DI/DL/KE/KL/LH/LT/LX/MH/NW/OZ/PR/QF/SN/SQ/TW/UA/VS/5J.
 
Gemuser
Posts: 4301
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: Changes To Uk Fifth Freedom Rights

Thu Oct 06, 2005 11:19 am

Quoting BigOrange (Reply 1):
But let a US Airline try for 5th freedom rights from the UK to Europe and see how quickly they get rejected!

This is the major issue with the Bermuda II agreement for the last 20 or so years!

Crap! BII give very extensive fifth freedom right to US carriers from the UK and UK carriers from the US. For years PA & TW operated between the UK & European cities and BA operated transPacific services from LAX, SFO & HNL.

LHR access is the BII sticking point! I doubt this change will effect US carriers much.

Quoting BY188B (Thread starter):
Where there might be real interest is from airlines such as Qatar, Emirates, Qantas and Singapore who might want to establish flights in North America via say Birmingham

QF and maybe SQ have had these rights for years. QF have had full 5th freedom rights across the Atlantic since the 1950s


Gemuser
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