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alberchico
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Ryanair Accident Question......

Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:56 am

http://www.aaiu.ie/AAIUviewitem.asp?id=6946&lang=ENG&loc=1652

According to the report the First Officer had only 700 total while operating the aircraft. To me being assigned to the 737 with that few hours is a little strange. Is this common practice in Europe? Isn't it unsafe having a relatively inexperienced FO handling such a large aircraft?
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mika
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:51 am

I did not know about that incident..but i don't know if it is as much about the FO being inexperienced as it is about how poor judgement they showed not to inspect the AC properly when they landed. Flying at 270kts with flaps partially extended and gear down sounds very extreme to me, and landing at a speed of 180 knots is surely not normal. I'm just glad that they didn't run out of Runway..if the weatherconditions were worse god know how this would have ended.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:00 am

Makes all our adventures on Microsoft FS look pro by comparison - "sure it's OK to fly the last five miles of the approach at 100 feet!" "Sure it's OK to be doing 270 knots on final!"
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Pihero
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:14 am

Never mind the F/O's lightish experience. What counts, as the report rightly stresses is the quality of training, especially CRM.
And on this aspect, the captain is the culprit. His attittude was verging on the outright criminal by not reporting the flight incidents and the busting of most of the airplane's limits. Those return passengers were lucky the 737 is such a sturdy plane.
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Orion737
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:46 am

Whenever i see a Ryanair plane depart, I often wonder if their is some poor, brain dead stewardess sat in the toilet in order to squeeze in another passenger.

That incident remains my favourite Ryanair incident and the most incredible but true story!
 
mhodgson
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:48 am

Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
According to the report the First Officer had only 700 total while operating the aircraft. To me being assigned to the 737 with that few hours is a little strange. Is this common practice in Europe? Isn't it unsafe having a relatively inexperienced FO handling such a large aircraft?

Nope - several airlines take on aviation graduates from schools such as Oxford aviation training and Cabair with frozen ATPLs. The quality of training at the establishments is second-to-none, and even airlines like BA and BD take on the graduates.
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shamrocka330
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:18 am

I see alot of Ryanair aircraft come and go at Dublin Airport each time I go there... I'm not saying that Ryanair pilots are dangerous, for from it, I just feel that when you compare Ryanair aircraft to the other aircraft that are landing, taking off and taxiing, they appear to be more aggressive.

Is this because of the pressure that is placed upon the pilots to keep to the schedule? Most extreme landings I've seen involve Ryanair aircraft, the fastest aircraft I've seen taxiing are Ryanair, pilots actually don't hide the fact they are pissed off when asked to hold in a queue or on one occasion when asked to complete a go around - heard on ATC radio.

Do the pilots still get bonus payments for early arrivals etc?
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alberchico
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Thu Oct 06, 2005 9:25 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 3):
What counts, as the report rightly stresses is the quality of training, especially CRM.

That's not going to entirely help. Any pilot with only a few hundred hours in a heavy commercial aircraft will be afraid to question the actions of his more senior experienced captain. Not to mention Ryanair's management is despised by pilots all over Europe because of their fear and intimidation tactics
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ACDC8
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Thu Oct 06, 2005 9:37 am

Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
According to the report the First Officer had only 700 total while operating the aircraft. To me being assigned to the 737 with that few hours is a little strange. Is this common practice in Europe? Isn't it unsafe having a relatively inexperienced FO handling such a large aircraft?

That's normal in Europe and other countries. The training in Germany as example for your CPL and IFR ratings requires 300 hours of groundschool and several written exams. The flight training requirments are quite similar to those in the US or Canada.

The fact that one can fly a B737 or A320 with just a few hundred hours of training shocks many North Americans because they have this misbelief that the more hours one has the better of a pilot one is. It's more the quality and not quantity that matters.
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alberchico
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Thu Oct 06, 2005 9:39 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 8):
It's more the quality and not quantity that matters.

So you're saying training in Europe is better than over here ?
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alberchico
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Thu Oct 06, 2005 9:53 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 8):
That's normal in Europe and other countries. The training in Germany as example for your CPL and IFR ratings requires 300 hours of groundschool and several written exams. The flight training requirments are quite similar to those in the US or Canada.

I have heard that because most european countries are smaller and thus have less domestic flights a pilots theoretically can advance to international routes and bigger aircraft faster then here. Also consider the effect of high speed trains on Europe's short haul network. Is this true?
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ACDC8
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Thu Oct 06, 2005 9:53 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 9):
So you're saying training in Europe is better than over here ?

Both have their advantages and disadvantages. I do find the training in Canada (I can't say anything about US, but I'm sure it's quite similar) is very good, depending on the school one attends and which instructors one gets. However, the training in Germany (as an example) is much more in depth, which can also have it's downside such as spending 2 hours on learning the circutry of your headphones just in case they stop working inflight (I'm not kidding you on that one either).

Don't forget that once out of flight school and you are picked up by an airline, you still receive more training on specific aircraft, CRM training and etc. I personaly don't see why one needs 1000 hours plus to be allowed to fly a 737 type aircraft, 300 is more then enough. I'd rather have someone sitting beside someone with experience, to learn more, then have him go out by himself in a bush plane or as a flight instructor teaching his bad habits on to others just to build their hours and not necessarily experience. It's all on how one views things I guess.

Just a side note, an instructor once told me that your commercial licence is your licence to learn, and a professional pilot never stops learning.
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alberchico
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Thu Oct 06, 2005 9:59 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 11):
Just a side note, an instructor once told me that your commercial licence is your licence to learn, and a professional pilot never stops learning.

Very True. I guess because of the rapid growth of airlines and the pilot shortage they have no choice. Now I know the LCC's do this like EasyJet or Ryanair, but do the majors like Lufthansa or British Airways employ pilots just finished from their ab-initio programs or do they require experience?
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ACDC8
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:00 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 10):
I have heard that because most european countries are smaller and thus have less domestic flights a pilots theoretically can advance to international routes and bigger aircraft faster then here. Also consider the effect of high speed trains on Europe's short haul network. Is this true?

I can't say if it's true or not. But let's use LH as an example. When one completes the initial training in Arizona, you move on to Bremen and receive more advanced training. After completion of that, you'll usually be assigned an aircraft type (737 or 320) and train for that and the whole process takes only about 2 years and the average graduate is under the age of 25. As far as domestic routes go, don't forget that flights within the EU are pretty well domestic (i.e.: Germany to Spain). I think that the reason why one in Europe can advance more quickly is because of the many short sectors one files. I've heard that in Asia it can take an F/O up to 10 years to move up to Captain because most flights are not under 3 hours of duration.
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zeke
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:12 am

Not that uncommon in Asia either, cadets start flying 777's with SQ at 200 hours.
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ACDC8
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:16 am

I just wanted to also say that if one does consider flight training in Europe, it can get very frustrating at times with all the bureaucracy and regulations.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
Gofly
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:39 am

Back to the incident,

I believe the Captain was having marital problems at the time, and was severely depressed. He probably shouldn't have been working in his state, but it's too late to be saying that now. Now whatever may have happened at FR in the past, this was the Captain's error.

There is a good thread on PPRuNe, I'd post the link if I was allowed, but it is easy enough to find.

Imagine if it had happened at BD, I'd hate the landings to be bumpy for your Granny Orion.  Wink Big grin

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Orion737
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:48 am

My granny wouldnt be seen dead on Ryanair!
 
Gofly
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:51 am

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 17):
My granny wouldnt be seen dead on Ryanair!

I suspected as much. But you didn't really read the statement.  Wink

-Gofly  Smile
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Orion737
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:54 am

Leave me granny alone everyone. She is a formidable woman, not exactly a battleaxe but a bit of a matriarch. I reckon some of you guys would be scared of her, if she were to get in one of her strops Big grin
 
mhodgson
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:26 am

I'm sure she can be placated by a cup of tea - keep a Thermos handy at all times  Silly
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Gofly
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:31 am

Quoting Mhodgson (Reply 20):
I'm sure she can be placated by a cup of tea - keep a Thermos handy at all times

+ A biscuit gets you bonus points..... Big grin

-Gofly
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sevenair
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:09 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 9):
So you're saying training in Europe is better than over here ?

Remember, our JAR first officers may not have that many hours, but they have ATPLs which are more comprehensive and in depth than any training that a US pilot goes through for a 'new hire'. And, also, the FO would have been supervised by a captain. SO comparing a similar low hour JAR pilot to an FAA pilot, I know which plane Id rather be a pax on!
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:12 am

It never ceases to amaze me how so-called 'knowledgeable' people herein think they are far superior, knowledge-wise, than the actual aviation experts. Funny, that.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
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alberchico
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:18 am

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 23):
It never ceases to amaze me how so-called 'knowledgeable' people herein think they are far superior, knowledge-wise, than the actual aviation experts. Funny, that.

Considering how poorly many airlines in the U.S are doing today I have to question what the hell are those '' experts'' doing? Not to mention all those accidents we've been having recently ......  scratchchin 
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Pe@rson
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:21 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 24):
Considering how poorly many airlines in the U.S are doing today I have to question what the hell are those '' experts'' doing? Not to mention all those accidents we've been having recently ......

And, needless to say, you, as a complete ameteur, know better. Right.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
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alberchico
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:26 am

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 25):
And, needless to say, you, as a complete ameteur, know better. Right

Well if the professionals can't manage it right that says a lot !!!
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Pe@rson
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:28 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 26):
Well if the professionals can't manage it right that says a lot !!!

How nonsensical! Are you knowledgeable enough to make an informed decision? I think not. I can imagine you picking up a tax textbook on the first day of a course and arguing with a tax professor that you know right and he does not. Sure, you're entitled to your opinion, but if it's merely based on fresh air then...
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
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alberchico
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:37 am

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 27):
Sure, you're entitled to your opinion, but if it's merely based on fresh air then

1)it is a fact that SOME low time co-pilots feel intimidated to question the actions of their senior captains

2) It is true that Ryanair treats their pilots like crap and will fire them for any infraction.

why else didn't the co-pilot grab the contols and execute a go- around ?

BTW when did I ever say I was a safety expert ?
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Pe@rson
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:44 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 28):
BTW when did I ever say I was a safety expert ?

So if you're now admitting that you aren't knowledgeable, then that disproves all the 'facts' you have just stated, namely:

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 28):
1)it is a fact that SOME low time co-pilots feel intimidated to question the actions of their senior captains

2) It is true that Ryanair treats their pilots like crap and will fire them for any infraction.

Indeed, with reference to your second submission, I will have you know that Ryanair treats its pilots very well: it realises their importance. Some argue that other employees, i.e. not the pilots, are treated inadequately.
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Gofly
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:46 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 28):
why else didn't the co-pilot grab the controls and execute a go- around ?

Because the Captain is in command of the aircraft at all times, and what he says is final. Two pilots fighting for the controls could have been a lot worse than what did happen.........

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 28):
It is true that Ryanair treats their pilots like crap and will fire them for any infraction.

Depends how much you believe the rumours, based on that basis, I've heard that Jet2 are worse.

-Gofly  Smile
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alberchico
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:55 am

Quoting Gofly (Reply 30):
Because the Captain is in command of the aircraft at all times, and what he says is final. Two pilots fighting for the controls could have been a lot worse than what did happen.........

Yes I remember in the sixties a lot of accidents happend because the co-pilot sat there and did not work up the courage to question the captain.

Quoting Gofly (Reply 30):
Depends how much you believe the rumours, based on that basis, I've heard that Jet2 are worse.

There are a lot of disgruntled pilots that will attest to the poor management at Ryanair
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Pe@rson
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:57 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 31):
Yes I remember in the sixties a lot of accidents happend because the co-pilot sat there and did not work up the courage to question the captain.

Yet you are 21-25? Hmm.

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 31):
There are a lot of disgruntled pilots that will attest to the poor management at Ryanair

And your proof is what precisely?
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Gofly
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:57 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 31):
Yes I remember in the sixties a lot of accidents happend because the co-pilot sat there and did not work up the courage to question the captain.

I'm not debating the fact the the co-pilot should have voiced his concerns, who knows maybe he did. But with the Captain in the state he was in, and doing what he was doing, if might not have made any difference.  Smile

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alberchico
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:03 am

True.

Do you think this was an isolated case or a complete failure of the Cockpit Resource Management concept?
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Gofly
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:18 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 34):
Do you think this was an isolated case or a complete failure of the Cockpit Resource Management concept?

I'd say probably an isolated case. His superiors probably weren't aware of his personal problems, and therefore had no reasons for concern. But I'm not really in a position to make judgements. Any views?

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TheSonntag
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:20 am

Will this have consequences upon the pilot? I think its great that he reported his mistake.
 
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alberchico
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:30 am

if you read the report the captain did not report the hard landing to maintenance imiadetely...
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prebennorholm
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:48 am

Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
According to the report the First Officer had only 700 total while operating the aircraft. To me being assigned to the 737 with that few hours is a little strange. Is this common practice in Europe? Isn't it unsafe having a relatively inexperienced FO handling such a large aircraft?

The failing pilot was a 4,000 hours Australian pilot.

The report indicates that the FO fully lived up to his CRM training. It can be questioned whether the FO should have taken over command. But one minut before touch down is hardly a good time to start a fight in the cockpit.

Well, it was a non-standard landing, but hardly a dangerous one. And the report does not question the FO's behavior.

BTW, the FO had 400 hours on the type, so he had started out as 737 FO at 300 hours.

As an absolute non-expert I have often wondered that so much emphersize is put exactly on hours. What experience does a pilot gain from watching a fuel gauge for ten hours over the same ocean? I would assume that he gets a hundred times more experience from half an hour in the simulator.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
diesel1
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:54 am

I'd recommend that some of you read the incident report before you carry on posting.... at least then we wouldn't have a misleading thread title - there was no Ryanair accident... though there was certainly an incident.
Furthermore... this quote is untrue

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 37):
hard landing

Read the report and find out the landing was 'relatively smooth'
This along with some of the other stuff perpetuated only proves that the thread originator is working to their own agenda imho....
I don't like signatures...
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:57 am

Quoting Diesel1 (Reply 39):
This along with some of the other stuff perpetuated only proves that the thread originator is working to their own agenda imho....

Amen. This happens frequently around here, me thinks.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:22 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 12):

Very True. I guess because of the rapid growth of airlines and the pilot shortage they have no choice. Now I know the LCC's do this like EasyJet or Ryanair, but do the majors like Lufthansa or British Airways employ pilots just finished from their ab-initio programs or do they require experience?

AFAIK, LH prefers pilots from it´s own school in Bremen, Germany. They first do six months ground school in Bremen, before going to their branch in Phoenix, AZ for another six months. There they start their practical training on Beech Bonanzas, followed by multiengine and IFR on Beech Barons. Once they have this experience they´ll graduate to Piper Cheyennes for turbine experience. All training from the beginning on is done based on airline procedures, e.g. even the basic student has to meet a flight plan with exact departure and arrival times. The basic training is being done in Arizona due to the often bad weather in Europe and the lower population density (less people to complain about student pilots practising take-offs and landings in the desert than in overpopulated Europe). Then they will return to Bremen to practise their knowledge in an European airspace enviroment for another year, flying Piper Cheyennes all over Europe in all kinds of weather. After two years they´ll graduate with an ATPL. If they get hired by LH, they will do their type rating course plus crew coordination training on either the B737 or the A320 and after a period of line training (mainly observing operations in real airline operations).

Jan
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Pihero
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:44 am

People,
Aviation has changed a lot in the past twenty years and it's time we did away with a few misconceptions :
1/- EXPERIENCE.
It was very important when aircraft systems were not that safe, when check-lists were not that well developped, when accrued time in the air meant that a given pilot had survived a lot of situations and that kind of "experience" made him safer.
Nowadays, with near-flawless systems and systematic redundancy, a pilot is far less likely to find himself in an unknown (second meaning : untrained for ) situation where some degree of old airmanship is required. One may not like this state of affairs, but it's the truth. The emphasis is :training, adherence to procedures (SOPs) and CRM, which is both part of the licence requirements and the continuous re-quals. It is now shown in the simulator where two of the four annual sessions are a LOFT scenario, during which the most important aspect is made of crew coordination and adherence to the manual.
I know that in most major european airlines, the cadet schemes bring 23 year old pilots with 300 hours in a revenue flight cockpit.

2/- PILOT PROFILE
Forget Hollywood and John Wayne, the 2005 pilot is a youngster selected for her/his balance, ability for team work, intellectual discipline with a good degree of assertive behaviour and a University graduate (or the equivalent engineering qualification).
The selection process weeds out very much the rest.(Sorry to say, that disqualifies pretty much the majority of the AvsB posters on Anet.  Wink )

To come back to the subject of this thread, the captain displayed some major CRM flaws :The gradient of authority was far too steep on his side, he failed to share his action objective, he disregarded the F/O's call-outs and warnings, and displayed even after the flight a complete disregard for others' opinion and safety concerns.
How much "badder" can anyone get ?
I, for one , do not think he was on his normal behaviour, so I just question the wisdom of his flying in the psychological quagmire his mind was on on that day.

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 38):
Well, it was a non-standard landing, but hardly a dangerous one.

That is not my opinion
Contrail designer
 
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alberchico
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RE: Ryanair Accident Question......

Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:18 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 42):
The gradient of authority was far too steep on his side, he failed to share his action objective, he disregarded the F/O's call-outs and warnings, and displayed even after the flight a complete disregard for others' opinion and safety concerns.
How much "badder" can anyone get ?

Does an incident like this affect his job chances in the future ?
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