legion242
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'We've Been Stiff-armed' By Southwest Pt II

Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:07 am

As requested by Goldenshield, a continuation for those with low-bandwidth.
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Boeing7E7
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RE: 'We've Been Stiff-armed' By Southwest Pt II

Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:55 am

I work LAX every single friggin' day.

So you provide Flow release times do you?

There are no ground stops.

Bull.

There is no flow.

That big projection screen of flow controlled flights available for viewing at SOCAL must just be for kicks then.


So you, some airport cronie at SAN knows what is going on at LAX, every moment of every day?

I worked at SAN for 10 years, all LAX regionals are flow controlled.

Bull. The only thing you know is what you see on paper as a yearly recap.

Really? So if that's the case, then LAX doesn't need to expand or reconfigure because there are no problems. Good. It'll save a bunch of money and I don't have to make trips out there anymore to work on the airspace or airfield modeling and how to make it more efficient.

Thanks man for letting me know about the non existance of flow control and ground stops at LAX, because I really hate making that trip once a month.

I see live data from ATCSCC

I see a guy with a computer and an FAA feed who is full of crap.

Can you provide a source for your info? Because if this is true, then it would be mentioned in things like the Command Center conference call that they hold every day with all airlines, and they would provide airlines with a list of wheels up times for each flight, which I have never seen at LAX.

A daily rip sheet and a meeting with SOCAL TRACON on a monthly basis. Flow is continuous at LAX for the regionals, there is no briefing. It's simply the way business is done on those routes. A daily conference call to issue all flow times in the system? Just stop, you're grasping at straws now.

[Edited 2005-10-05 19:18:12]
 
incitatus
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RE: 'We've Been Stiff-armed' By Southwest Pt II

Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:10 am

This Air Transport World article says that 72% of DFW's traffic is connecting. If a substantial amount of local traffic migrates to Dallas Love, there won't be enough local traffic to sustain DFW.

http://www.atwonline.com/magazine/article.html?articleID=1388
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1MillionFlyer
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RE: 'We've Been Stiff-armed' By Southwest Pt II

Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:16 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 2):
there won't be enough local traffic to sustain DFW.

Is there a study from a real soucre to back up this statement?
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Goldenshield
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RE: 'We've Been Stiff-armed' By Southwest Pt II

Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:23 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 1):
Sos you work at SOCAL control and provide Flow release times do you?

No. The ATCSCC gives flow times to the airlines. SOCAL approach does not. Also, flow times are not given unless flow is specified.

This is a flow message:

ATCSCC ADVZY 058 LAS/ZLA 10/05/2005 CDM GROUND DELAY PROGRAM
MESSAGE:
AIRPORT: LAS
DELAY ASSIGNMENT MODE: DAS
ADL TIME: 1621Z
ARRIVALS ESTIMATED FOR: 05/1800Z - 05/2359Z
PROGRAM RATE: 40/36/36/36/36/36
FLIGHTS INCLUDED: ALL CONTIGUOUS US DEPARTURES
SCOPE: ALL
CANADIAN AIRPORTS INCLUDED: NONE
DELAY ASSIGNMENT TABLE APPLIES TO: ZLA
MAXIMUM DELAY: 153
AVERAGE DELAY: 46.5
REASON: WEATHER, WIND/RWY CONST
REMARKS:

EFFECTIVE TIME:
051622 - 060059
SIGNATURE:
05/10/05 16:22

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 1):
Must be that big projection screen of flow controlled flights available for viewing at SOCAL.

No. Flow is only when capacity exceeds demand for conditions. If it the field is at 50 to 75% capacity all day long, then it doesn't need flow. Also, the first time listed by the ATCSCC is scheduled time. We can change that for timing issues unless there is flow.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 1):
It'll save a bunch of money and I don't have to make trips out there anymore

You'll save a lot on car insurance, too.  Wink

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 1):
Thanks man for letting me know about the non existance of flow control and ground stops

You must have selective comprehension disorder, or something. Do you just glaze over the posts and look for selective words?

Quote me:
"LAX does NOT have daily ground stops. LAX does NOT have daily flow."
". . . the last time I saw a groundstop at LAX, was two weeks ago for CAT I only."

Notice that I did not say that no such things existed. Quit mincing others' words.
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incitatus
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RE: 'We've Been Stiff-armed' By Southwest Pt II

Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:27 am

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 3):
Is there a study from a real source to back up this statement?

No. Is there a study to back up the statement that opening up Love Field won't have a negative impact on DFW? No.

Are there large airports that do not rely on local traffic? No.
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OPNLguy
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RE: 'We've Been Stiff-armed' By Southwest Pt II

Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:29 am

I'm going to have to agree with my dispatcher bretheren here, as LAX doesn't see groundstops or ground delay programs published very often. When they do occur, it's usually for CAT-I aircraft only (when the fog gets thick). Maybe once or twice a year, enough thunderstorms will fire off east of LAX that block the finals to 24L/24R/25L/25R, and they'll stop things until they can get arrival flows established over PMD and IPL.

Now, all that said, that doesn't mean that some flights into LAX from other Socal (and ZOA/ZAB) airports don't get flow control times, or ESP delays. I suspect we have a terminology problem here, as some pilots don't make any distinctions--to them a delay is a delay, irrespective of what type it was. I had a pilot the other day taking a big departure delay, and he's telling me the airport is groundstopped. It wasn't, as flights destined to that airport were still launching from their departure points. He used the term inappropriately, as it applied to -him- i.e. he was stopped (on the ground) and couldn't depart when he wanted to. I speak with dispatchers at other airlines on a regular basis, and it's the same at their airlines as well.

From this dispatcher's point-of-view, the airports with the most frequent groundstops and published GDPs are ORD, ATL, LGA, EWR, PHL, JFK, SFO, BOS and DFW. LAX sure isn't one of them.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: 'We've Been Stiff-armed' By Southwest Pt II

Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:37 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 4):
No. The ATCSCC gives flow times to the airlines. SOCAL approach does not. Also, flow times are not given unless flow is specified.

Sure... Tell that to Eagle and Skywest.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 4):
No. Flow is only when capacity exceeds demand for conditions. If it the field is at 50 to 75% capacity all day long, then it doesn't need flow. Also, the first time listed by the ATCSCC is scheduled time. We can change that for timing issues unless there is flow.

No. Flow is used daily to separate and control regional flights into and out of the LA basin and release times are managed, issued and flights monitored at TRACON. Major system flows are managed by ATCSCC, not the regional issue.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 6):
I suspect we have a terminology problem here, as some pilots don't make any distinctions--to them a delay is a delay, irrespective of what type it was. I had a pilot the other day taking a big departure delay, and he's telling me the airport is groundstopped.


TRACON calls it flow and groundstops so if there's a terminology issue, it's there's. It's more likely the regional flow and groundstops are manageed independently to give priority to mainline operations and hold regionals. While the condition would not exist for mainline, a regional is faced with the condition. All the report shows is how many flights were held, time of stop and how long and it's daily.

[Edited 2005-10-05 19:46:31]
 
Goldenshield
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RE: 'We've Been Stiff-armed' By Southwest Pt II

Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:50 am

Obviously, my flow is not your flow.

The only regional flight that is affected is ONT due to the overhead flow (your definition) into LAX. However, it is rare that flow (my definition) into LAX occurs.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 7):
Tell that to Eagle and Skywest.

They would agree with me.

Now that you mention it, those flow delays you see are from the majors pulling rank and swapping out the regionals' good times, and substituting theirs.

[Edited 2005-10-05 19:53:39]
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Boeing7E7
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RE: 'We've Been Stiff-armed' By Southwest Pt II

Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:01 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 8):
The only regional flight that is affected is ONT due to the overhead flow (your definition) into LAX. However, it is rare that flow (my definition) into LAX occurs.

Nope, all flights to and from LAX from the listed cities are affected daily, have required release times and a wheels up that cannot be missed or it's return to gate, unless you're lucky and take a 10 minute hit during an off-peak time. And if you're late you can't get a quick turn in either. Release times are not given to delayed inbound aircraft for a departure either until the aircraft has landed. That is what the LA Basin refers to as "Flow Control":

Bakersfield
Carlsbad
Fresno
Imperial
Monterey
Ontario
Orange County
Oxnard
Palm Springs
San Diego
San Luis Obispo
Santa Barbara
Santa Maria
Yuma
 
Goldenshield
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RE: 'We've Been Stiff-armed' By Southwest Pt II

Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:18 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 9):
Nope, all flights to and from LAX from the listed cities are affected daily, have required release times and a wheels up that cannot be missed or it's return to gate

They don't. How do I know? ATC's job is to accomdate everyone. They can't say, "Well, you had to wait for that passenger, so you're not taking off."

The only airport that has a mandatory on-time departure time both ways is IYK.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 9):
And if you're late you can't get a quick turn in either.

Not true. It happens all of the time.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 9):
Release times are not given to delayed inbound aircraft for a departure either until the aircraft has landed.

If an aircraft is late, we dispatchers intentionally delay the aircraft in the ATC system when we file the flight.
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Boeing7E7
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RE: 'We've Been Stiff-armed' By Southwest Pt II

Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:24 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 10):
They don't. How do I know? ATC's job is to accomdate everyone. They can't say, "Well, you had to wait for that passenger, so you're not taking off."

I'm rather confident that if you asked this of a gate or ops agents, at any of the mentioned cities, they'd tell you how frequently they have misconnecting passengers, returned flights that missed their "flow" time with pissed off pax, or cancelled flights because of this "flow".
 
Goldenshield
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RE: 'We've Been Stiff-armed' By Southwest Pt II

Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:33 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 11):
I'm rather confident that if you asked this of a gate or ops agents, at any of the mentioned cities, they'd tell you how frequently they have misconnecting passengers, returned flights that missed their "flow" time with pissed off pax, or cancelled flights because of this "flow".

Hmm. Let me think of the last time a delayed flight has failed to takeoff and returned to the gate on a flight inbound to LAX—other than maintainance items. My answer: Never.
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N1120A
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RE: 'We've Been Stiff-armed' By Southwest Pt II

Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:02 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 1):
There are no ground stops.

Bull.

Groundstops at LAX are most definately not daily or even often

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 6):
Maybe once or twice a year, enough thunderstorms will fire off east of LAX that block the finals to 24L/24R/25L/25R, and they'll stop things until they can get arrival flows established over PMD and IPL.

And then they shift to the 6s and 7s and are back to normal

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 7):
Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 4):
No. The ATCSCC gives flow times to the airlines. SOCAL approach does not. Also, flow times are not given unless flow is specified.

Sure... Tell that to Eagle and Skywest.

Um, he is a dispatcher at Skywest

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 11):
Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 10):
They don't. How do I know? ATC's job is to accomdate everyone. They can't say, "Well, you had to wait for that passenger, so you're not taking off."

I'm rather confident that if you asked this of a gate or ops agents, at any of the mentioned cities, they'd tell you how frequently they have misconnecting passengers, returned flights that missed their "flow" time with pissed off pax, or cancelled flights because of this "flow".

It is his job to cancel the flights, so he probably knows better than both you and the gate agents.
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OPNLguy
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RE: 'We've Been Stiff-armed' By Southwest Pt II

Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:13 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 6):
Maybe once or twice a year, enough thunderstorms will fire off east of LAX that block the finals to 24L/24R/25L/25R, and they'll stop things until they can get arrival flows established over PMD and IPL.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
And then they shift to the 6s and 7s and are back to normal

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. The last time it happened, they stayed on a west flow, as the surface winds dictated it.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: 'We've Been Stiff-armed' By Southwest Pt II

Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:44 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
Um, he is a dispatcher at Skywest

Really? Then he should know better and cut the bullshit.

[Edited 2005-10-05 23:48:56]
 
N1120A
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RE: 'We've Been Stiff-armed' By Southwest Pt II

Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:51 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 15):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
Um, he is a dispatcher at Skywest

Really? Then he should know better.

He does, that is the point
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Boeing7E7
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RE: 'We've Been Stiff-armed' By Southwest Pt II

Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:48 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
He does, that is the point

Feel free to browse the 3-5 day a year problem, April was a particularly slow month (Not) with volume accounting for 63% of the problem, volume cost LAX 15,216 minutes or 254 hours of delay:

http://www.transtats.bts.gov/OT_Delay/OT_DelayCause1.asp?pn=1

[Edited 2005-10-06 01:06:01]
 
apodino
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RE: 'We've Been Stiff-armed' By Southwest Pt II

Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:23 am

Lets see, I clicked on both sky west and los angeles. Here is the numbers that it spat out.

88.57 percent of flights were on time. Thats pretty damn good if you ask me.
6.93 percent of the flights were delayed due to Skywest issues.
.57 percent of flights were late due to weather.

and the big one that seems to be the topic of controversy.

.61 percent, or 6 out of every thousand flights, were late due to national aviation system delays.

And that was in August. In April which is the month you were cited, Skywest flights were on time at LAX a whopping 93 percent of the time. 93 percent. No airport in my opinion that issues a daily Ground Delay program or Ground Stop would ever have this type of on time performance. And where did I get these numbers. From your own link.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: 'We've Been Stiff-armed' By Southwest Pt II

Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:23 am

Ah, bean counters make me laugh. They look at a blanket figure, and say that it's the ultimate cause.

So April was at 63%. This blanket figure is based on the actual arrival count vs. the acceptance rate for the airport. In this case, flow due to low ceilings, visibility, or both. This does NOT make the airport inefficient.
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apodino
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RE: 'We've Been Stiff-armed' By Southwest Pt II

Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:36 am

I looked at the numbers a little more closely, and it sounds to me like the 63 percent number is spin. Yes 63 percent of NATIONAL AIRSPACE SYSTEM delays at LAX were volume. However that still only accounts for 40 percent of all Delays experienced at LAX. And in the month of April, only 14 percent of all flights into LAX across the board were delayed. Put it another way. Only 5 out of every 100 flights into LAX is delayed due to volume.
 
apodino
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RE: 'We've Been Stiff-armed' By Southwest Pt II

Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:42 am

One more thing. Of course volume is going to be a larger percentage of the delays in LAX than any other airport. Simple reason, weather is rarely an issue in Southern CA, which means there are very few weather delays. If you look at any other big airport (ie BOS, ORD, DFW) weather is by far the biggest reason for the delays, and the volume percentage is going to be less.

Though some of the numbers are accurate, I do see some real spin here which distorts any legit analysis on this issue.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: 'We've Been Stiff-armed' By Southwest Pt II

Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:48 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 19):
Ah, bean counters make me laugh. They look at a blanket figure, and say that it's the ultimate cause.

I'm sure the bean counters at Skywest appreciated the single month $75,000-$100,000 tab in increased operational costs because of it.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 20):
Yes 63 percent of NATIONAL AIRSPACE SYSTEM delays at LAX were volume.

The tables indicate volume handling based on the airport. And 63% is the percentage of accumulated delay time of the 100% delay time for the airport.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 20):
Only 5 out of every 100 flights into LAX is delayed due to volume.

Volume delays should not exceed 2% of the operations.

[Edited 2005-10-06 01:55:35]
 
apodino
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RE: 'We've Been Stiff-armed' By Southwest Pt II

Thu Oct 06, 2005 11:02 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 22):
The tables indicate volume handling based on the airport. And 63% is the percentage of accumulated delay time of the 100% delay time for the airport.

I know that. Its based on the airport. But the group is national airspace related. Subgroups of that are weather, traffic, runway closures, equipment, etc. Basically items out of the Airlines control. But its not 63 percent of the delays for the whole airport, its 63 percent of the delays in that subgroup, which doesn't include severe weather, delays the airline is resonsible for, as well as aircraft late arrivals, which one presumes is only on outbound flights.

And I just looked at the numbers again for LAX. As I said, only 5.47 percent of all flights in LAX in April were delayed due to any of the aforementioned reasons. Of that number, 63 percent of that, or about 3 out of 100 flights are delayed due to volume. I know its still not below 2 percent, but in most of the other months, the figure is below the 2 percent since weather, not volume, was the primary delay culprit.

The one airport in the country where we have too many volume delays, is IAD. Looking back in recent months, nearly half of all the delays in the airspace group I have been describing have been volume. One of two things needs to happen in IAD to remedy this problem and I think both may happen.

A fourth runway needs to be built, and I believe is in the process of design and related items.

Independence Air, who is largely responsible for this by breaking away from united and starting their own RJ carrier, which nearly doubled RJ traffic instantly creating a gridlock, needs to fold. I hate to say that, but they are a large part of the problem, in addition to all the GA traffic at the airport that belongs at DCA, but isn't due to bureaucracy and fear in DC.

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