RAMPRAT980
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Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:44 pm

I've researched this topic and didn't find it anywhere on Anet. Jet Blue is currently a domestic flying airline. The one international stop they have is in the Dominican Republic. Does anyone know if Jet Blue has any plans of flying to cities across the Atlantic or possibly to Mexico or other destinations in the Carribean. I know with their current fleet of planes, flying across the Atlantic is out of the question. But with all the legacy carriers focusing so much attention on their international routes would it be a wise move for them ?
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ikramerica
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:46 pm

Not without an order for planes that can do that, no.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
crogalski
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:46 pm

Jetblue wants to be kinda like WN, they told us during orientation that they don't have any plans for trans-atlantic flights.. not only that, the A320's don't have the range..

They applied for JFK-CUN..
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werdywerd
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:53 pm

No. But I bet we see Canada destinations popping up in the near future.
 
NASOCEANA
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:01 pm

I think that JetBlue will be the first LCC in the U.S. to fly across the Atlantic! With all the legacy carriers restructuring the routing and the development of the 787 and A350, its inevitable.

The profitability of International routing and the increases in range will require LCC to take a hard like at flying across the Atlantic, if they haven't already!

Just my opinion,
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propilotjw
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:18 pm

YES! We already fly across the atlantic!



Okay fine, it's just delivery flights... it's still across the pond though  Smile

In all honesty, I can see it happening one day... way down the road
 
HunUtazo
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:35 pm

They will have never become large enough to overcome what is yet to come soon, so very soon...
dude
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:54 pm

Quoting HunUtazo (Reply 6):



Quoting HunUtazo (Reply 6):
They will have never become large enough to overcome what is yet to come soon, so very soon...

huh?  Confused
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AeroWesty
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:58 pm

Quoting NASOCEANA (Reply 4):
I think that JetBlue will be the first LCC in the U.S. to fly across the Atlantic!

I thought that honor had gone to PeoplExpress.  Smile
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luv2fly
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:40 pm

B6 has applied for rights for CUN flights.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
NetworkDoc
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:47 pm

If it's going to be commercially viable long-term, go for it, JetBlue. Just don't make the same mistakes the early LCCs in the US (and Europe) committed, and move away from your original business concept trying to be a jack-of-all-trades. As is often the case in this wonderful industry of ours, someone gets greedy and has visions of grandeur, destroying a basically good concept, when fast growth ambitions overtake sensible development decisions.
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jfklganyc
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:52 pm

Neeleman was asked about this right in front of me at an informational session at Embry-Riddle a few years ago. His answer was a resounding no. Someone also asked about an A330, and again his answer was no.

With that said, B6 has veered off the original flight plan quite a bit:

1. Original plan was to go as far west as SLC . . . WOW! No California. Turns out they are the LARGEST carrier to California from NYC. And a large player in transcons from BOS and DC. Also have major ops in OAK and LGB.

2. No LaGuadia. Neeleman was pretty certain about this. Yet, five years later they are at LGA. If they could get more slots there, I'm sure they'd grow.

3. Single airplane fleet. Here come the 190s.

Who knows . . . I guess anything is possible, but if I was a betting man I'd say no.

PJ
 
cedarjet
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:56 pm

I'm amazed they don't do Toronto - WestJet do YYZ-LGA so cross-border LCCs aren't unheard of.

And I can easily imagine jetBlue crossing the pond - they have awesome domestic feed, including California, and JFK is the definitive jumping off point for Europe. All they need is half a dozen A330s, and it's hello! to Stansted, Stockholm, Munich, Athens and Madrid. And goodbye! to Delta.
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lightsaber
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 11:49 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
Not without an order for planes that can do that, no.

Summed up simply, B6 needs an aircraft *capable* of doing the trip before we start to speculate. IAE has done studies for a more efficient V2500 (new curved blade fan by RR, new high turbine by Pratt, new pre-diffuser into the combustor, other more minor tweaks). With that, a higher gross weight A320 could do trans Atlantic. Right now, the optional center fuel tank doesn't add range just because the engines have to burn too much fuel getting the added weight to altitude.

Or... Airbus could do a new wing tip treatment on the A320. This would have even more benefit as *all* aircraft have their lift/drag ratio get worse at high weights. Since the A320 has less range with the center tank than with it, I would guess that for this airframe the center tank takes the wing loading into a regime with extremely poor aerodynamics (asuuming near full pax load). The why's and what's would be pure speculation on my part. But that's part of the fun of a.net!  bigthumbsup 

In my opinion, a new B737NNG or A320NG that could do trans Atlantic with ~150 pax would absolutely rock the market. If B6 had an aircraft to cross the Atlantic, they would be doing it.

Quoting HunUtazo (Reply 6):
They will have never become large enough to overcome what is yet to come soon, so very soon...

 rotfl  Ah, the doomsayers. It wouldn't be a.net without them.

Lightsaber
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ikramerica
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 11:52 pm

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 9):
B6 has applied for rights for CUN flights.

Yeah? If you are flying over the Atlantic to get to CUN, you aint coming from the USofA!
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 11:54 pm

Cross-atlantic or international traffic in general requires higher fixed costs than allowed in the LCC structure. Very few city pairs can sustain pure point-2-point operations ... example NYC-LON ... and thats why you see several companies trying it already. However, for true international operations, a hub-spoke system is far more likely which would mean significant new costs (ex: setup of interline baggage, permission to operate, etc.).

-A.
Live, and let live.
 
John
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:20 am

US Airways is NOW the only "full service" LCC flying across the pond...  Wink
 
ckfred
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:01 am

A friend of mine who flies for AA has asked WN pilots who ride in the jump seat about flying to Canada and Mexico. There are a number of reasons why WN won't do it, but costs of setting up operations in foreign countries and exchange rates are the two big ones.

Since B6 has their fares priced so low, any significant fluctuations in exchange rates could be a problem. Also, the cost of doing business in Europe is very expensive, particularly jet fuel and hotel rooms for crews. Even the per diems that crews are paid would be a lot higher.

I don't have the exact figures, but the per diems that AA crews get for Tokyo layovers are significantly higher than what domestic crews receive.
 
SonOfACaptain
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:15 am

Quoting NASOCEANA (Reply 4):
I think that JetBlue will be the first LCC in the
U.S. to fly across the Atlantic!

You are one airline too late.  wink 


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N1120A
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:20 am

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Thread starter):
Does anyone know if Jet Blue has any plans of flying to cities across the Atlantic or possibly to Mexico or other destinations in the Carribean.

Mexico is already a go, with B6 applying for CUN. The Atlantic isn't in the future

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 8):
Quoting NASOCEANA (Reply 4):
I think that JetBlue will be the first LCC in the U.S. to fly across the Atlantic!

I thought that honor had gone to PeoplExpress.

It did. Very good Westy

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 11):
1. Original plan was to go as far west as SLC . . . WOW! No California. Turns out they are the LARGEST carrier to California from NYC. And a large player in transcons from BOS and DC. Also have major ops in OAK and LGB.

I really can't see that considering how soon after start up they were in ONT, then LGB and OAK

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 9):
B6 has applied for rights for CUN flights.

Yeah? If you are flying over the Atlantic to get to CUN, you aint coming from the USofA!

The original post asked about BOTH the Atlantic and Mexico

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 17):
Since B6 has their fares priced so low

B6 does not price their fares that low actually, and also don't have the same fare structure of WN which allows for choice in fare rules. Sure, you can get a good deal, but you will just as often pay more (like with LCCs everywhere). B6 already has international stations and is planning more.

*7000

[Edited 2005-10-07 00:25:06]
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AeroWesty
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:36 am

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 18):
You are one airline too late.

Right, but your pix are of the wrong airline.  Wink
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jetblueatjfk
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:48 am

Yea so far B6 has SDQ and NAS and hopefully soon CUN. After that hopefully a little more Mexico destinations if the get is (Puerto Vallarta?) then hopefully Canada. But I think B6 will be going after Mexico and Caribbean before Canada.

For Trans-Atlantic, not now and not for a while. David Neeleman repeatedly says no. There was an article about a month ago and it they asked him, and well you guessed it, No.

 airplane jetBlueAtJFK airplane 
 
supa7E7
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:32 am

Quoting JetBlueAtJFK (Reply 21):
Yea so far B6 has SDQ and NAS and hopefully soon CUN. After that hopefully a little more Mexico destinations if the get is (Puerto Vallarta?) then hopefully Canada. But I think B6 will be going after Mexico and Caribbean before Canada.

For Trans-Atlantic, not now and not for a while. David Neeleman repeatedly says no. There was an article about a month ago and it they asked him, and well you guessed it, No.

JetBlue possibly made a big mistake to avoid Trans-Atlantic, whether they admit it to themselves or not.

A fleet of say 8 A332s could support 6 destinations year-round. MAN, NCE, BCN, VIE... If legacy airlines are anything to go by, JetBlue sacrifices meaty profits by avoiding transatlantic cities from the classic European gateway, JFK. Neeleman missed the boat. He should still order A332s and get going. An A332 with all ultra-premium Y (210 of them, say) would be a compelling product for Joe/Jane Passenger.
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Tornado82
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:47 am

What about fleet utilization? An aircraft can't really feasibly do more than one Transatlantic round trip per 24hour period. If B6 needed A330's, etc, they'd lose their utilization on that fleet type. An LCC-type fare (yeah I know, B6 ain't THAT cheap, but they're not hauling first class pax either), and if they run it in an A320with no significant freight to support it either, isn't going to bring in enough revenue to cover crew costs abroad, fuel costs, and plane lease rates.
 
HunUtazo
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:14 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 13):
Ah, the doomsayers. It wouldn't be a.net without them.

'02-2006' ".........the beginning of the end."
dude
 
BDABOY
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:32 am

There is a persistent rumour here in Bermuda that B6 wil be starting service JFK-BDA within a year.
 
SPREE34
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:35 am

Quoting HunUtazo (Reply 24):
Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 13):Ah, the doomsayers. It wouldn't be a.net without them.
'02-2006' ".........the beginning of the end."

Light, he's another one of those teen (see profile) mouths that will draw fire until booted. Probably hasn't discovered women yet, or even worse, hasn't discovered you don't always need one.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
Tornado82
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:03 am

Quoting HunUtazo (Reply 24):

'02-2006' ".........the beginning of the end."

And what end might that be? Got some proof, or at least something more than a vague threat that in this country is probably enough to draw Patriot Act suspicions?
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:19 am

Quoting NASOCEANA (Reply 4):
think that JetBlue will be the first LCC in the U.S. to fly across the Atlantic!

What about Peoplexpress? Didn't they go to LGW with 747-200s?
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:25 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 28):
What about Peoplexpress? Didn't they go to LGW with 747-200s?

See Reply #8
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gt1
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:51 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 12):
And I can easily imagine jetBlue crossing the pond - they have awesome domestic feed, including California, and JFK is the definitive jumping off point for Europe. All they need is half a dozen A330s, and it's hello! to Stansted, Stockholm, Munich, Athens and Madrid. And goodbye! to Delta.

Cedarjet, I couldn't agree more. 2 years ago I predicted this very thing would happen within 5 years, Mr. Neeleman has 3 left to prove me right. I think A332/A333/A358 flying trans-atlantic via JFK with their quality service and reasonable fares, fits their business plan like a hand to a glove. And they will hurt the legacy carriers bad.......again.
 
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hotelbravo
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:54 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
Yeah? If you are flying over the Atlantic to get to CUN, you aint coming from the USofA!

Actually, the better part of a direct BOS-CUN routing is over the Atlantic, off the East coast of the US...  old 
 
HunUtazo
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:11 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 27):
And what end might that be?

...a merger.
dude
 
Tornado82
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:18 pm

Quoting HunUtazo (Reply 32):

...a merger.

Not that I'm buying too deeply into this... but with an airline that... well... let's just say they haven't had sex?
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:40 pm

"I really can't see that considering how soon after start up they were in ONT, then LGB and OAK"

Before you say u cant see that, check your facts! "New Air" was never supposed to go past SLC.
 
Islandboy
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:58 pm

Quoting Hotelbravo (Reply 31):
Actually, the better part of a direct BOS-CUN routing is over the Atlantic, off the East coast of the US

Really, considering where CUN is...I would have thought they would not hug the coast and burn more fuel unless traffic dictates otherwise.
Looks like the fresh wind has gone stale
 
Tornado82
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:00 pm

Quoting Islandboy (Reply 35):

Really, considering where CUN is...I would have thought they would not hug the coast and burn more fuel unless traffic dictates otherwise.

Is B6 overwater equipped or do they have to remain within the 30 (I think? Correct me if wrong) miles of shore like WN does/did.
 
oneskyjet
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:48 pm

My first post on A.net though I've been a browser for years. I found this question particularly interesting and thought I'd add a few thoughts.

From a network structure standpoint, capturing some of the Trans Atlantic market makes a lot of sense for JetBlue. They can create a significant amount of connectivity at JFK that would allow them to fill larger Airbus or Boeing aircraft to some decent sized European markets like LON, PAR, AMS, FRA, MAD, BRU, ROM. As they introduce the Embraer regional jets to smaller US cities from JFK, the potential "hubbing" power of JFK will get even stronger. Also and probably even more important, JetBlue has a strong enough market presence in New York City alone to capture a decent share of the local market in higher yielding nonstop markets.

As others have already pointed out, the A320 simply doesn't have the range to operate economically across the North Atlantic. Given their relationship with Airbus, the A330 is probably a likely candidate as well as an appropriately sized one (at 300 seats or so).

Adding a new fleet type does add overhead in the form of training, crew scheduling, equipment, spares etc but these are more than offset by the operating benefit have having the right size aircraft. In addition, once the fleet size gets to 10+ aircraft, I would suspect these overhead costs become less relevant.

The Transatlantic market is highly seasonal both in yield as well as load. Route profitability across the Atlantic is great in the summer, more marginal in the shoulder months, and disastrous in January and February. All carriers flying the market suffer these seasonal swings. Only a few have the yield premium and/or cost structure to be profitable on an annual basis.

Potentially, JetBlue could offset some seasonal demand swings by seasonally shifting Transatlantic equipment to Florida and Caribbean routes. In choosing the right plane to do the Atlantic, JetBlue would probably want to choose a plane that works well in these routes as well.

Unfortunately for low cost airlines in general and for Jet Blue specifically, their cost advantage relative to "legacy" carriers decreases with distance flown. As a result, JetBlue will need to produce yield premiums as well as lower costs in order to effectively compete. The "drop the fares" and grow the market strategy won't work as well in this case as it has in the U.S domestic market.

Relative to most of the U.S. based incumbents (AA, DL directly at JFK, CO at EWR, US indirectly in PHL), JetBlue is well positioned. A serious JetBlue move into the Atlantic could well precipitate big reductions Delta's JFK operation. In any event, JetBlue's relative market strength in New York and attractive brand identity will push weaker players to reduce capacity. As this occurs, JetBlue could easily emerge as a formidable Transatlantic competitor.

In the current environment, when even JetBlue's viability is challenged, I'd be surprised if they'd make such an expensive commitment. Longer term, it seems to me that the Transatlantic market is too good an opportunity for jetBlue to forego.
 
Mir
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:40 pm

Quoting OneSkyJet (Reply 37):
My first post on A.net

That's got to be the best first post I've ever seen. Welcome to A.Net!!

Quoting OneSkyJet (Reply 37):
In choosing the right plane to do the Atlantic, JetBlue would probably want to choose a plane that works well in these routes as well.

Somehow I don't see the 330 as a good plane for the NYC-Florida market. Perhaps a 757 or 767 would do the trick, but that would in all probability mean that JetBlue would have to abandon the all-new plane philosophy, which I think is one of their strongest points (along with the DirecTV, which wouldn't work on an international flight either).

Perhaps the 787 could do the job well enough. It would probably be in service by the time B6 starts transatlantic services, if they decide to.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
SJU767
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:33 pm

Quoting JetBlueAtJFK (Reply 21):
Yea so far B6 has SDQ

They stop flying to SDQ. However they fly to STI
 
ltbewr
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RE: Will Jet Blue Ever Fly Across The Atlantic?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:02 pm

I would doubt it. Intercontinental services to the EC may also be subject to considerable limitations due to various treaties. It would require a 3rd aircraft type. Jet Blue had already expanded into the Carribbean and Mexico. With their moderate cost structure, good yeilds, limited compeition (AA mostly) from the NYC/JFK base, they can make good money and profits there, so why to intercontinental? I could see them expanding into a few cities in Canada (Toronto, Montreal with their RJ's) as well as into some South American and Central American Countries.