KarlB737
Topic Author
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Delta May Use Court To Impose Pilot Cuts

Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:32 am

Courtesy: The Associated Press

Delta May Use Court To Impose Pilot Cuts

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/051006/delta_bankruptcy.html?.v=1
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Delta May Use Court To Impose Pilot Cuts

Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:07 am

I don't see a showdown in the courts with the Delta pilots.

Delta pilots are reluctant to give up more money, but they have historically hung in there with the company.

The pilot group has already agreed to one round of conessions, but oil was at $45 a barrel then.

I think that, when faced with the economic realities of todays environment, the pilot group will agree to more concessions. They were VERY slow in responding to the original call for cuts, but everything has changed.

They have to if we are to survive this bankruptcy.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
lowrider
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RE: Delta May Use Court To Impose Pilot Cuts

Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:33 am

Change "may" to "will". Why wouldn't they? They would have the pilots work for free if they could get away with it.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 1):
They have to if we are to survive this bankruptcy.

Interesting statement. People are always willing to have others give up pay for the good of the company.
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B744F
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RE: Delta May Use Court To Impose Pilot Cuts

Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:35 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 1):
They have to if we are to survive this bankruptcy.

Please do me a favor and find out the executive pay of all the wonderful people who ran the company into the ground in the first place. Then you can talk about how "they" have to give up more and more.
 
dl757md
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RE: Delta May Use Court To Impose Pilot Cuts

Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:48 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 3):
Please do me a favor and find out the executive pay of all the wonderful people who ran the company into the ground in the first place. Then you can talk about how "they" have to give up more and more.

It's a well known fact inside the company that in 2004, 80 of the top 100 highest paid Delta employees including all management where pilots with about 20 of them grossing over $500,000 for the year.

DL757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Delta May Use Court To Impose Pilot Cuts

Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:08 am

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 4):
It's a well known fact inside the company that in 2004, 80 of the top 100 highest paid Delta employees including all management where pilots with about 20 of them grossing over $500,000 for the year.

Well known fact?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I've never heard this before.

Can you name some names?
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
B744F
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RE: Delta May Use Court To Impose Pilot Cuts

Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:20 am

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 4):
It's a well known fact inside the company that in 2004, 80 of the top 100 highest paid Delta employees including all management where pilots with about 20 of them grossing over $500,000 for the year.

The pilots made more than management and the executives???
 
bucky707
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RE: Delta May Use Court To Impose Pilot Cuts

Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:21 am

why is anyone surprised at this article? I don't even think its newsworthy. The threat to impose pay cuts is there the minute you file for bankruptcy, do we really need an article to tell us that?
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: Delta May Use Court To Impose Pilot Cuts

Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:23 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 3):
Please do me a favor and find out the executive pay of all the wonderful people who ran the company into the ground in the first place

Do yourself a favor by checking prior SEC filings which (by law) list all forms of executive compensation, the amounts, dates, and lists by executive. All the EVP's should be listed, i.e. CEO, CFO, COO, etc.
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
N839MH
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RE: Delta May Use Court To Impose Pilot Cuts

Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:25 am

B747f....you should learn not to live too much in the past because that may kill any future Delta may have. I have yet to see any of the Delta pilots who retired with their huge retirement check get off the airplane complaining. Some have even bragged to ACS agents how they didn't get near what some of the senior pilots received.

Where's John Malone? I am sure he is a bit upset because he no longer has control like he used to. This one guy attributed a huge role in todays Bankruptcy of Delta Air Lines.
Solodude!
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Delta May Use Court To Impose Pilot Cuts

Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:42 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 6):
The pilots made more than management

Yes they do.

Quoting B744F (Reply 6):
and the executives

No they don't.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
lowrider
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RE: Delta May Use Court To Impose Pilot Cuts

Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:44 am

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 4):
It's a well known fact inside the company that in 2004, 80 of the top 100 highest paid Delta employees including all management where pilots with about 20 of them grossing over $500,000 for the year.

Gotta wave the BS flag on this one. Even under the pre-concession pay rates, this would be almost impossible. Unless you have some inside track that allows you to do every trip at premium pay and max out your block hours every month, that figure is almost impossible. The only guys I have ever met who do that well at any company are the ones trading stocks or running some other business on the side.

Even if you are right and the 40 most senior pilots make 500k a year, that is 20 million in payroll over 12 months. A large figure to be sure, but not nearly enough to make or break the company by itself. How much has been has been lost due to the brilliant decision to sell the fuel hedges?
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skibum9
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RE: Delta May Use Court To Impose Pilot Cuts

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:06 am

Hey guys, if you are really curious about how much the pilots make, go to www.airlinepilotpay.com. You will see that the DL guys are making more than most of their peers at the other majors, but even so, I can't see how one would earn $500k per year.
Tailwinds!!!
 
panamair
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RE: Delta May Use Court To Impose Pilot Cuts

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:47 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 11):
How much has been has been lost due to the brilliant decision to sell the fuel hedges?

As usual, hindsight is 20/20 and easy to blame all past ills on MANAGEMENT. Hedges expire and at some point, DL would not have had enough of a decent credit rating or enough cash to get more.

AMR made a profit in Q2 this year and they are hardly hedged either. Gee, what's one of the big differences between AMR and DL? Could it be that AMR got concessions much earlier than DL? Malone's statement back then was "We didn't give back because we thought DL was in much better shape back then (after 9/11)" - well, it doesn't really take a genius to figure out that there was no way DL could sustain those "United+1" pay scales when both AA and UA were already chopping pilot pay by 30% in 2002, does it?
 
B744F
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RE: Delta May Use Court To Impose Pilot Cuts

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:52 am

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 8):
Do yourself a favor by checking prior SEC filings which (by law) list all forms of executive compensation, the amounts, dates, and lists by executive. All the EVP's should be listed, i.e. CEO, CFO, COO, etc.

If you really think they have to specify the exact compensation "by law" then you need to learn the accounting tricks still legal.

Quoting N839mh (Reply 9):
you should learn not to live too much in the past because that may kill any future Delta may have.

I'm not living in any past. I'm talking about paying executives and management much less for doing a horrible job.

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 4):
pilots with about 20 of them grossing over $500,000 for the year.

What complete nonsense
 
lowrider
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RE: Delta May Use Court To Impose Pilot Cuts

Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:02 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 13):
Could it be that AMR got concessions much earlier than DL?

AMR also asked first. You can't get 'em until you ask for 'em.

Quoting Panamair (Reply 13):
well, it doesn't really take a genius to figure out that there was no way DL could sustain those "United+1" pay scales when both AA and UA were already chopping pilot pay by 30% in 2002, does it?

No, but how much intelligence has been needed over the past 2 to 3 years to predict that oil prices would go up? All you have to do is look at certain other, rapidly growing economies to know that there will be an increased demand for oil. Then look at the amount of exploration and drilling to see how much the supply will increase. Further, how much has been paid out in retention and bonuses? Who was the genius that though up Simplifares? Let's see, we are losing money, so we will drop prices and make it up on volume with no increase in capacity? Brilliant idea. While your at it, increase flying in ATL because that airspace is way too far from saturation. And yes, hedges do run out, eventually. Do you see anyone else in a hurry to get rid of them? Hedges are an asset, sort of like a wholly owned regional. As I have said before, selling assets to cover operating expenses is burning the furniture to keep the house warm.
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rainbird
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RE: Delta May Use Court To Impose Pilot Cuts

Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:33 am

I for one am with the mind-set that what we need to do know is turn a profit. Delta has been good to me for 18 years providing me with industry leading benefits and pay. No, I did not agree with every step along the way, but overall I am happy with my employer. We can no longer receive those industry leading packages now and I accept it. Yields are in a steady decline down in the last 15 years and I realize that pay and benefit cuts need to be made. Let the employees that are driven by pay, retire or leave. The ones left behind will be dedicated and driven. Our asset is that, with the exception of the pilots union, we are flexible workforce that does not have a 3rd party interjecting their views on what has happened. Lets move forward and get the company profitable.
 
commavia
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RE: Delta May Use Court To Impose Pilot Cuts

Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:51 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 15):
No, but how much intelligence has been needed over the past 2 to 3 years to predict that oil prices would go up? All you have to do is look at certain other, rapidly growing economies to know that there will be an increased demand for oil. Then look at the amount of exploration and drilling to see how much the supply will increase.



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 11):
How much has been has been lost due to the brilliant decision to sell the fuel hedges?

As Panamair said, hindsight is 20/20. It is extremely easy for you, Lowrider, to say now, after two wars, Iran, Saudi Arabian attacks, et al, that they should have thought twice before selling their fuel hedges.

However -- business is all about taking risks, and you simply cannot possibly understand the **facts** that the CEOs of these companies were looking at post-9/11. Their balance sheets were in tatters, they were facing load factors approaching the half-full mark, and they were losing millions per hour.

Faced with these decisions, these CEOs all made the decision -- and took the **risk** -- that they could sell their hedges to buff up their balance sheet, hoping that the market would recover within a year (as everyone thought it would) and they would live to fight another day and buy back their hedge positions when there balance sheets stabalized again.

They all rolled that dice, and they all lost. Now, some lost a lot less -- American's and Continental's management has been able to keep holding on, even without any substantial hedge positions, and actually turn marginal profits. They have substantially restructured their business models and as such have been able to fight another day. The managements of Delta, Northwest, United and USAirways have not done as well in their performance.
 
lowrider
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RE: Delta May Use Court To Impose Pilot Cuts

Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:46 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 17):
As Panamair said, hindsight is 20/20. It is extremely easy for you, Lowrider, to say now, after two wars, Iran, Saudi Arabian attacks, et al, that they should have thought twice before selling their fuel hedges.

I knew it was a bad idea as soon as I found out about it. You hang on to valuable assets like that at all costs. I would have been better to give other expenses, rather than sacrifice a strategic advantage.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 17):
However -- business is all about taking risks, and you simply cannot possibly understand the **facts** that the CEOs

If your profile is accurate, you presume an awful lot in this statement

Quoting Commavia (Reply 17):
Faced with these decisions, these CEOs all made the decision -- and took the **risk** -- that they could sell their hedges to buff up their balance sheet, hoping that the market would recover within a year (as everyone thought it would) and they would live to fight another day and buy back their hedge positions when there balance sheets stabalized again.

This is an absurd and naive strategy. If you are burning cash, throwing more cash on the fire will not solve the problem. Pinning your hopes on the wishful thinking that next year will be better is a stupid idea. You need to assume that next year will be worse, so you will be prepared no matter what. Do you really think Santa Claus is going to bring you a successful next year because you were good this year? The difference between the airlines which are in bankruptcy and those that are not is whether the leadership addressed the symptoms or the disease.

What made anyone think next year would be better. Personally, I think a significant recovery will not occur until late 07 or early 08. This assumes no more major terrorist attacks, major wars, or other similar issues. I figured this out at home, using Google.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 17):
They all rolled that dice, and they all lost

They rolled the dice, got thier bonuses, and left town. Those that remain are the ones that lost.
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FlyPNS1
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RE: Delta May Use Court To Impose Pilot Cuts

Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:55 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 17):
Faced with these decisions, these CEOs all made the decision -- and took the **risk** -- that they could sell their hedges to buff up their balance sheet,

Selling the fuel hedges did little to "buff up" the balance sheet at DL. When DL sold their last fuel hedges, they sold them for a whopping $83 million dollars. That's chump change.
 
commavia
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RE: Delta May Use Court To Impose Pilot Cuts

Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:58 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 18):
I would have been better to give other expenses, rather than sacrifice a strategic advantage.

What expenses, exactly, would have been better to cut, exactly, that weren't ultimately cut?

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 18):
If your profile is accurate, you presume an awful lot in this statement

If by "presume an awful lot," you mean that I am presuming that you were not a CEO of a major airline after September 11, than I suppose you are right -- I do presume a lot. Seeing as you weren't a CEO of a major airline after September 11 (at least as far as I know), I think it is simply unfair for you to say which decisions were the right ones and the wrong ones, given that you don't know what numbers they were looking at and what data they had access to, and given the fact that you have the benefit of almost four years of hindsight with which to evaluate their decisions.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 18):
If you are burning cash, throwing more cash on the fire will not solve the problem. Pinning your hopes on the wishful thinking that next year will be better is a stupid idea.

Their decision was not about "throwing more cash on the fire." They all made the decision that preserving their liquid cash -- especially with the initial feeling that another major shock may have been coming soon -- and then trying to fight another day was the right way to go. I suppose, looking back, that this was the right decision to make for American and Continental, as the two of them have managed to stay solvent, whereas airlines like Delta, Northwest and United made the wrong decision, as they are bankrupt.
 
lowrider
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RE: Delta May Use Court To Impose Pilot Cuts

Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:42 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 20):
What expenses, exactly, would have been better to cut, exactly, that weren't ultimately cut?

Well lets see, there were executive bonuses, a few VP positions we can live without, the interiors on the MD aircraft, bringing on Republic and the E170s, the 737-200 fleet(wouldn't that take care of some of the overcapacity? not to mention getting rid of an inefficient fleet), the commuter assistence programs in ATL, donations to the gay pride event in ATL, the MD90 fleet(an orphan fleet, easily replaceable by the 737-800), two seperate wholly owned regionals each with thier own dispatch, management, training dept, etc, just to name a few. Delta is a top heavy company, flush with fat. They need to remeber they are in the business of moving people and things with airplanes and shed anything that does not directly contribute to that purpose.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 20):
If by "presume an awful lot," you mean that I am presuming that you were not a CEO of a major airline after September 11, than I suppose you are right -- I do presume a lot

I suppose having run and sold a successful business prior to starting my aviation career does not qualify me to comment on management decisions at all, does it?

Quoting Commavia (Reply 20):
Their decision was not about "throwing more cash on the fire." They all made the decision that preserving their liquid cash

Doesn't look like it to me. When Leo took over at Delta, there was something close to 10 billion in cash. He had no problem burning through it. The sale of hedges was not about preserving cash. Using the hedges would have done that. The sale was about trying to pour a little back into a very leaky bucket.

Once again, selling hedges and playing musical chairs with personnel is simply addressing the symptoms. Addressing revenue and expenses is treating the disease.
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folov
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RE: Delta May Use Court To Impose Pilot Cuts

Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:16 pm

About this.

What if pilot (and other staff) would fly(work) for 2weeks or 1month for free. I have seen various company do SO to reduce cost fast. And pay up some bills (;

See what happens. This pay will be more put aside for better days or credited to better days , then the employees get an extra paycheck when the company is financially stable over a certain period so it does not make a hole in the budget.

I know that some of us live check per check or SO, and it will take some sacrifice but it better that be out of a job. There will also be a term, that if the company goes out of bushiness, it will need to pay that month to everyone.
 
lowrider
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RE: Delta May Use Court To Impose Pilot Cuts

Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:03 pm

Quoting FOLOV (Reply 22):
.

That has worked at other companies, Cathay Pacific during the SARS outbreak comes to mind. I don't think it would work at Delta because I do not think a suffucient level of trust exists between management and front line.
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