NYC777
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Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:52 am

Sounds like we're getting ever so close to launch!

http://today.reuters.com/business/ne...NESSPRO-BA-TRANSPORT-BOEING-DC.XML
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
Glom
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:58 am

Sounds like an upstage attempt and a poor one. Their upstage of the A380 first flight with the NW and AC orders was more effective.
 
NYC777
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:01 am

Upstage what? They haven't announced anything nor did they say they are going to do so in any specific time frame. The coment about the 747ADV launch was in response to a question about it.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 7

Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:13 am

>> NCY777 >> Upstage what? They haven't announced anything nor did they say they are going to do so in any specific time frame

The A350 launch, I suppose.


>> Gloom >> Their upstage of the A380 first flight with the NW and AC orders was more effective.

It is also expected that Boeing will announce a sizeable number of 787 orders in the next week or so. It's possible that QF could announce their order soon, which could be a decisive order for both programs.

If Boeing won QF and a few other customers, that would constitute an effective upstage attempt, in my opinion.
 
Glom
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:28 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 3):
If Boeing won QF and a few other customers, that would constitute an effective upstage attempt, in my opinion.

Agreed. If they actually launched the 747ADV with a big customer that would be the ultimate upstage. I am rooting for its launch BTW.
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:12 am

How many committments do Boeing need to launch this type? A series of orders each 5 to 10 frames from credit worthy airlines should be as good as a big order from one carrier.
 
MKEdude
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:31 am

Boeing has been promising something on the 747ADV for some time. It seems as though we have been on the cusp of a major announcement for more than a year now, I for one have fallen into the wait and see camp.

On the other hand many carriers that ordered the 380 are royally pissed at the delays. Could it be possible that Boeing may have poached a few orders from Airbus?
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline." Frank Zappa
 
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ER757
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:46 am

While I really hope they go through with it (I'm a HUGE 747 fan), I'm really tired of the "decision coming soon" announcements from Boeing. Next thing I want to read from them is "747ADV launched." Until then, spare us the hype.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:08 am

Quoting MKEdude (Reply 6):
Boeing has been promising something on the 747ADV for some time. It seems as though we have been on the cusp of a major announcement for more than a year now,



Quoting MKEdude (Reply 6):
I'm really tired of the "decision coming soon" announcements from Boeing. Next thing I want to read from them is "747ADV launched." Until then, spare us the hype.

Boeing has been trying to get the B-747-NG right ever since the failed B-747-500/600 screw-ups. They followed that with the Sonic Crusier, which they also flopped on.

They finally found their stride with the B-7N7/787, which really wasn't in development for to long (when compared to the A-3XX/380 in development for more than 10 years). Now they have only really been working on the B-747-ADV for about 18 months now. I believe it will launch by the end of 2005, but even if it takes another 12 months to work out the engineering details with what the airline customers wants, I can wait for that.


Quoting MKEdude (Reply 6):
On the other hand many carriers that ordered the 380 are royally pissed at the delays. Could it be possible that Boeing may have poached a few orders from Airbus?

I haven't heard that. What will most likely happen is the B-747-ADV will effect future sales of the A-380. Weather that effect is positive or negitive for the Whale, I don't know.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:27 am

No, I doubt they poached anything. Most airlines who ordered the A380 need it as is. The one that ordered huge numbers are is no position to buy 747Adv as well, considering all the other aircraft coming on line for them and their competitors.

Those 140+ A380 orders are solid. It's follow-on orders that are going to be hard fought with the 747Adv.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:42 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 8):
They finally found their stride with the B-7N7/787

The 7N7 is the 757. You mean 7E7.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
positiverate
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:27 pm

Quoting ER757 (Reply 7):
While I really hope they go through with it (I'm a HUGE 747 fan), I'm really tired of the "decision coming soon" announcements from Boeing.

Amen! I do think, however, that rather than concentrate on reengineering the 747, Boeing ought to get into the 70-110 seat market.
 
iwok
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:29 pm

Quoting ER757 (Reply 7):
Next thing I want to read from them is "747ADV launched." Until then, spare us the hype.

In the words of Monty Python..


LEFT HEAD: At least ours was better visually.
DENNIS: Well, at least ours was committed. It wasn't just a string of
pussy jokes.
OLD MAN: Get on with it.
TIM THE ENCHANTER: Yes, get on with it!
ARMY OF KNIGHTS: Yes, get on with it!
DINGO: Oh, I am enjoying this scene.
GOD: Get on with it!


GET ON WITH IT!

-iwok
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Sat Oct 08, 2005 12:01 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 11):
Amen! I do think, however, that rather than concentrate on reengineering the 747, Boeing ought to get into the 70-110 seat market.

my guess is that you'll never see boeing in that market. both A and B seem to have surrendered that segment of the market to bombardier, embraer, etc.
 
sparkingwave
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:38 am

Quoting ER757 (Reply 7):
I'm really tired of the "decision coming soon" announcements from Boeing.

No offense, but why should Boeing (or anyone else) care what a few A.netters think about its plans to launch (or not yet launch) a new aircraft?

It's definitely your right to be tired of Boeing non-announcements and you can fully exercise that right, but wouldn't it be easier not to have the expectation of Boeing in the first place?

SparkingWave
Flights to the moon and all major space stations. At Pan Am, the sky is no longer the limit!
 
twincommander
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:12 am

Quoting Iwok (Reply 12):

indeed sir  Smile
 
dhefty
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:17 am

No matter what Boeing decides on the B747Adv, I can't see them selling a lot of the passenger version, but of course it would be somewhat of a drag on A380 sales for select customers. The B777-300ER is the way to go. Quads are going to become a rare species in the passenger market.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:25 am

Quoting ER757 (Reply 7):
While I really hope they go through with it (I'm a HUGE 747 fan), I'm really tired of the "decision coming soon" announcements from Boeing. Next thing I want to read from them is "747ADV launched." Until then, spare us the hype.

I agree! Sorry, but the airlines must be tired of this too.

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 16):
The B777-300ER is the way to go. Quads are going to become a rare species in the passenger market.

Have you become ConcordeBoy's padawan?  duck  I agree, but there are certain markets with the A380 and B747adv will make sense. Most of the 747adv will probably be freighters IF this project ever leaves the ground.

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 11):

Amen! I do think, however, that rather than concentrate on reengineering the 747, Boeing ought to get into the 70-110 seat market.

I would ague the 737NNG market is more critical. However, I do not expect a 787 derived airframe until the 787 has proven itself.


Lightsaber
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Ken777
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:32 am

A chunk of future 747 Adv sales will depend on how the 380 turns out, both in terms of economic (and reliable) operations and in terms of the loads they get over time. Airlines are going to get some solid experience and are then going to decide if they made the right decision. For god or bad that happens with a lot of major purchases.

Personally I think that the 747 Adv hits a good size slot and will be a desirable plane for many airlines - just like the 380. I hope it does as I really enjoy flying the upper deck.
 
zvezda
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:35 am

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 16):
No matter what Boeing decides on the B747Adv, I can't see them selling a lot of the passenger version, but of course it would be somewhat of a drag on A380 sales for select customers. The B777-300ER is the way to go. Quads are going to become a rare species in the passenger market.

I agree that quads will become rare in the passenger market, but not quite that fast. Boeing could easily sell 200 passenger versions of the B747Adv.
 
Wiggidy
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:36 am

Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 14):
No offense, but why should Boeing (or anyone else) care what a few A.netters think about its plans to launch (or not yet launch) a new aircraft?

Unfortunately for B its not just A.nutters. At the Paris Air Show many people were dissapointed with the indecision on Boeings behalf. Remember alot of folks expected them to launch it at the show to trump the A380 spectacle. A lot of Americans I spoke to at the show were hoping for it and were dissapointed, and that was 4 months ago
-Wes
 
klkla
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:42 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 8):
They followed that with the Sonic Crusier, which they also flopped on.

I don't think I would agree with that statement. The 787 is a result of the research and developement that was done for the Sonic Cruiser.
 
dhefty
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:42 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 19):
Boeing could easily sell 200 passenger versions of the B747Adv.

If Boeing sells 200 of those gas-guzzlers, they'll be dancing in the streets of Everett!
 
zvezda
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:47 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 19):
Boeing could easily sell 200 passenger versions of the B747Adv.



Quoting Dhefty (Reply 22):
If Boeing sells 200 of those gas-guzzlers, they'll be dancing in the streets of Everett!

What makes you think of the B747Adv as a gas-guzzler?
 
Glom
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:16 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 23):
What makes you think of the B747Adv as a gas-guzzler?

They guzzle lots of unburnt air for the bypass flow on those super-efficient engines.
 
dhefty
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:23 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 23):
What makes you think of the B747Adv as a gas-guzzler?

Compared to the B777-300ER, which has only slightly less capability.
 
sparkingwave
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:33 am

Quoting Wiggidy (Reply 20):
At the Paris Air Show many people were dissapointed with the indecision on Boeings behalf.

Well, an air show is just that, a show. And when it comes to airplanes, it's substance over showmanship.

SparkingWave
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:54 am

>> Compared to the B777-300ER, which has only slightly less capability.

Have you made such a comparison yourself?  eyebrow 

The 747-Adv has 20% more fuel capacity than the 773ER, but it also has about 25% more seats. With improvements in aerodynamics, propulsion, and materials, the Adv will be a very economical aircraft.
 
Johnny
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:59 am

they hope to have...that is really funny.
no idea why,but boeing seems to have problems to start new 747-versions since decades now...  Smile

i think the main problem of the 747ADV is not the layout with four engines,it is the cabin-layout in comparison to the 787/777 and 380 as well.

by comparing the cabin width of all mentioned aircraft you will see one big problem:

a airline which operates the 747ADV along the 380 cannot put a 10 seat abreast in economy in the boeing with the same level of comfort as on the airbus.the cabin with is not wide enough!

you can easily put 8 seats into a 787, 9 seat in a 777 and as well 10 seats in a 380,but not in a 747 in the future ( if you want to have the same level of confort on your entire longhaul-fleet)

my personal opinion: cancel the 747ADV and develop a 777-400ER with a further stretch of around 5 meters,put some of the lavs and galley in the cargo compartment (like on the 346) and you will have a great 747-replacement with comparable comfort and economics!!!
 
art
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:17 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 28):
my personal opinion: cancel the 747ADV and develop a 777-400ER with a further stretch of around 5 meters,put some of the lavs and galley in the cargo compartment (like on the 346) and you will have a great 747-replacement with comparable comfort and economics!!!

Indeed. Would it not be cheaper to develop, and have higher sales than a pax 747ADV? I ask because I have no idea.
 
JAM747
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:47 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 28):
my personal opinion: cancel the 747ADV and develop a 777-400ER with a further stretch of around 5 meters,put some of the lavs and galley in the cargo compartment (like on the 346) and you will have a great 747-replacement with comparable comfort and economics!!!

Is Boeing still considering a 777-400? I have heard about it before but is the idea completely shelved? If it is being considered maybe that is one reason for the long wait for a definate launch for the 747-ADV.
 
zvezda
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:59 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 28):
my personal opinion: cancel the 747ADV and develop a 777-400ER with a further stretch of around 5 meters,put some of the lavs and galley in the cargo compartment (like on the 346) and you will have a great 747-replacement with comparable comfort and economics!!!

Boeing has spent a lot of time studying both a B777-400X and the B747Adv. There are many advantages and disadvantages that have been covered here in previous threads.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:03 am

>> Is Boeing still considering a 777-400?

To my knowledge, Boeing only completed a techincal study to see if a 773ER stretch was possible. They concluded that it was, in fact, possible. I do not know (and do not believe) the concept was ever marketed to customers or requested by customers.

>> If it is being considered maybe that is one reason for the long wait for a definate launch for the 747-ADV.

I don't think there is any aspect of a 777-400 at play.

Boeing is waiting for at least two credible launch customers before offically launching the program. Boeing has one (Cargolux) who have committed significantly to the program. There are several outstanding RFP for large aircraft (CX in particular) that are expected to be announced in December.

This would be a likely time for Boeing to get customer #2 and proceed to industrial launch.

>> Indeed. Would it not be cheaper to develop, and have higher sales than a pax 747ADV?

You can't stretch the 777-300ER and have anything competitive with the 747-Adv. It wouldn't be economical either.

(1) Stretching the 773ER would reduce range/payload. The 773ER is at the base of "standard" longhaul aircraft, so a further redesign of the 777LR would be necessary. This would push the 777 right up to its wing loading, structural loading, and engine power limits.

(2) Any 773ER stretch would just barely match 744 seating capacity, and would do nothing for customers desiring an aircraft larger than the 744 but smaller than the A388.

(3) The 747-Adv will be able to reach "standard" longhaul specs with minimal redesign from the 744ER. Most of the design and technical aspects of the 747-Adv have already been studied under previous 747 concepts, i.e 744XQLR, 747X.

(4) The 747-Adv has more potential as a freighter than a double-stretch of the 777-F.

Like I said, it's possible to build a 774, but not necessarily the best option.
 
astuteman
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RE: Boeing Hopes To "have Something Soon" On New 747

Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:08 am

Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 14):
It's definitely your right to be tired of Boeing non-announcements and you can fully exercise that right, but wouldn't it be easier not to have the expectation of Boeing in the first place?



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 32):
Boeing is waiting for at least two credible launch customers before offically launching the program. Boeing has one (Cargolux) who have committed significantly to the program. There are several outstanding RFP for large aircraft (CX in particular) that are expected to be announced in December.

I'm certain that back in April Boeing clearly stated that there were some key airlines making large aircraft decisions at the END OF THE YEAR, and no launch would be announced before then (as DFW quite rightly points out). People shouldn't be surprised that no launch has yet been made.
Patience................

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