englandair
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BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:37 am

Hi all,

With the recent deregulation in India, British Airways are dramatically increasing their frequencies to the country, as well as opening a new route to Bangalore. In fact by next summer, BA will have almost doubled the number of weekly services to India and in preparation are spending around £1million (approx. $176000) on tailoring onboard services to attract a larger Indian clientele.

By the summer British Airways will serve:
- Bangalore- 5x weekly B777
- Delhi- 14x weekly B747/B777
- Chennai- 6x weekly B747
- Mumbai- 14x weekly B747/B777
- Kolkata- 3x weekly B777

So, my question is this: considering there are no extra aircraft joining the fleet (to my knowledge, at least!), how are BA able to add so many flights? Have frequencies on other non-Indian routes been cut back to allow for aircraft/ slots/ crews/ etc to operate the flights?

Many thanks for any thoughts or info!  Smile


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B742
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:50 am

Maybe more flights were added due to BA dropping Saudi Arabian routes?

Are BA the largest European airline in India now, or is it still LH?

Rob!  Smile
 
willyj
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:15 am

Quoting Englandair (Thread starter):
around £1million (approx. $176000)

I wish that were the case... obviously you forgot a 0 on the end of that!

BA has such a large fleet of longhaul aircraft that I'm sure they can tweak their schedules a little bit and find a few spare frames. Yes, I think it was mentioned earlier that the Saudi frames would be used for this expansion. Has BA discontinued any other Longhaul routes recently? For the winter they have a few less flights to the US, maybe that's where the planes are coming from?
 
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PA110
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possibl

Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:19 am

I was told by my sales rep that they are pulling the 747 from the NBO service and putting it on the India routes. NBO will be operated by 777. This is really going to hurt the tourism/safari business because of the huge reduction in the number of seats to the destination. I hope KQ has the resources to get its hands on more aircraft and go double-daily from LHR. The demand next summer will far exceed capacity.

[Edited 2005-10-07 22:19:40]
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LAXDESI
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:37 am

Quoting B742 (Reply 1):
Are BA the largest European airline in India now, or is it still LH?

Currently, it is LH with about 38 weekly flights, but that may change by next summer if BA comes through with the proposed additions. I believe LH has plans to add new locations and increase frequency to some existing locations.

[Edited 2005-10-07 22:41:01]
 
Pomnath
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Sat Oct 08, 2005 12:13 pm

It is obvious to most of us here in India that the travel business to the US will suffer co-terminus with the developments in the US economy. Obviously the aircraft for India are coming from those pulled off the US routes.
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Nimish
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Sat Oct 08, 2005 12:37 pm

Wow - that's a huge increase in their total services. Makes BD's 4x PW to BOM seem small/insignificant.

I think we'll see a reduction in fares during offseason - this kind of capacity is hard to sustain at the normal prices!
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zvezda
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:44 pm

Quoting Nimish (Reply 6):
I think we'll see a reduction in fares during offseason - this kind of capacity is hard to sustain at the normal prices!

The increase in capacity pursuant to the liberalized bilateral will surely result in fare reductions. Demand is steadily increasing, but the supply was increased in one big step. That can only result in a drop in prices in the short term. An OpenSkies treaty would result in low prices over the long term.
 
Pe@rson
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:48 pm

I wonder whether additional cities, like COK, HYD, ATQ and TRV, will ever be served by BA, BD, 9W or AI from LHR. (I realise AMD is served non-stop by AI.) I believe HYD's runway is on an insufficient length to fly non-stop to Europe, so it could possibly be routed LHR-AMD-HYD or whatever. What happened to BA's talks re. HYD? They were, at one stage, considering HYD.
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stealthpilot
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:06 am

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 8):
I believe HYD's runway is on an insufficient length to fly non-stop to Europe

The Runway at HYD can handle LH 340's, 777's and also 744's (AI?). Runway lenght is not the factor.

Quoting Englandair (Thread starter):
By the summer British Airways will serve:
- Bangalore- 5x weekly B777

By summer BLR will go daily. I beleive it is 5X presently

-Nikhil
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Pe@rson
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:31 am

Quoting Stealthpilot (Reply 9):
The Runway at HYD can handle LH 340's, 777's and also 744's (AI?). Runway lenght is not the factor.

Well, that is what A.net members said. But I should have known better: fact is far less frequently submitted than fiction. Anyway, I suspect HYD will be served at some stage, either with 763s or 772s. Would BA serve HYD non-stop?

Also, I suspect that DEL will go twice-daily at some stage.
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Spike
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:49 am

Seeing as India buys very little (look at the airport you land in), I don't see what all the fuss is over? India routes are easy to fill in either direction from most major cities - expect more curry on BA with their GBP1m (not a lot though is it). BAs pricing to india will seperate the men from the boys. Which airline is more likely to be Oneworld in India? I'd go with Jet Airways for their lack of Asian routes and established India slots.

Apart from that, I'd give the whole place a very wide berth until the government invests in its society. Indian airports, companies, infrastructure, banks and media are a joke.

jmhpov


Spike.
 
CHI787ORD
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:59 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 4):
. I believe LH has plans to add new locations and increase frequency to some existing locations.

ATQ and AMD I believe.
 
karan69
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:35 am

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 8):
believe HYD's runway is on an insufficient length to fly non-stop to Europe,



Quoting Stealthpilot (Reply 9):
The Runway at HYD can handle LH 340's, 777's and also 744's (AI?). Runway lenght is not the factor

KLM also operates 3x weekly MD-11 services.
SQ 777s
LH 340s

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 10):
Also, I suspect that DEL will go twice-daily at some stage.

Plans are already in place to make them double daily by end of next year
 
Nimish
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:43 am

Quoting Spike (Reply 11):
Seeing as India buys very little (look at the airport you land in), I don't see what all the fuss is over

What is this all about?
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AlanUK
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:07 am

Quoting Englandair (Thread starter):
Have frequencies on other non-Indian routes been cut back to allow for aircraft/ slots/ crews/ etc to operate the flights?

There's also the fact that BA is currently transferring 4 more short haul 767s to the WorldWide fleet, possibly to make some 777s available for other routes.

Regards
 
Pomnath
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:47 am

Quoting Spike (Reply 11):
Apart from that, I'd give the whole place a very wide berth until the government invests in its society. Indian airports, companies, infrastructure, banks and media are a joke.

Hunh? Most everybody in the world is knocking at the door to be let in. Could you please be specific in what aspects of India you find a joke? And what has this got to do with aviation?
Sea to Sky, Racists should Die!!
 
vv701
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:35 pm

Quoting Englandair (Thread starter):
how are BA able to add so many flights?

When are the 763s on lease to Qantas due to be returned?
 
englandair
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:35 pm

Thanks a lot for your replies

Does anyone know what the 'new' B767s will be used for? Maybe replacing B777 on some routes so the T7 can be used to India?


Thanks  Smile
 
himmat01
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:47 pm

Quoting Stealthpilot (Reply 9):
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 8):
I believe HYD's runway is on an insufficient length to fly non-stop to Europe

The Runway at HYD can handle LH 340's, 777's and also 744's (AI?). Runway lenght is not the factor.

The rwy length is a factor. A fully loaded B747-400 cannot land on the main ILS rwy if there is a tailwind.
An airplane might disappoint any pilot but it'll never surprise a good one.
 
Pe@rson
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:13 pm

Didn't BA say, sometime ago, that it wanted to operate to both BLR and HYD using 763 machines? I think it considered a one-stop service to HYD. I might be wrong, but I vagely remember that it did.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
mrniji
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:18 pm

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 20):
think it considered a one-stop service to HYD.

With stop where? Maybe in the Gulf and explore 5th freedom (does BA have 5th freedom in the context of the new bilat from the Gulf? AFAIK yes)..

It will be interesting to see how the liberalization of bilats will lead to the exploiration of "new remote" markets by the carriers.. I see a lot of potential for AI in this field (due to lesser costs and perfect price-based competition)
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
Pe@rson
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:30 pm

I am quite sure - but could still be wrong - that BA said it was considering flying via BLR. But that'd be a little silly.

Do you think COK or TRV or both will ever be served from LON perhaps twice- or thrice-weekly?
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
mrniji
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:36 pm

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 22):
that BA said it was considering flying via BLR. But that'd be a little silly.

That would indeed be silly. They would never get 7th (?) Freedom.. would be a traditional AI milk run  Silly

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 22):
Do you think COK or TRV or both will ever be served from LON perhaps twice- or thrice-weekly?

I do think they will.. the Keralites do have a market, and building on 6th freedom (and scrapping the silly Transit visa) could make BA a strong player.

One thing which is noteworthy with the LCC competition: Point-to-point strategies are again receiving a new momentum.
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
monkeyboi
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:29 pm

The new India plans look like this:

From October 2005:

- Move from daily to double daily flights to BOM
- Begin serving BLR 5 times per week
- Increase MAA frequency from 2 per week to 6 per week.


From March 2006:

- Move from daily to double daily on DEL
- Increase BLR from 5 x weekly to daily
- Increase MAA from 6 x weekly to daily


This will be achieved by the dropping or some LH routes, such as Saudi (and also rumoured Luanda).

Also the long-haul fleet has grown by 4 aircraft through the transferring of 4 767-300's from short-haul to long-haul. These 767's will be reconfigured with Club Sleeper seats and World Traveller Plus (No First). These aircraft will begin to replace the 777's on some 'thin' US and african routes and the 777's transferred to the india routes.

An 'Indian Routes Focus Group' has also been set up within BA. Their job is to look at every aspect of the customer journey; from booking, the airport experience, inflight service & catering, arrivals and transfers, as well as improvements to the Executive Club.

Sales and Marketing are gearing up for major advertising campaigns in the UK, India and North America. The message of these campaigns will focus on the world of opportunity BA is opening up to India through increased services, a global network and an enhanced product offering.

There will be an 'Indian Route Focus roadshow' in the crew report centre at LHR to allow the cabin crew to gain knowledge and ask questions about Indian culture and Indian passengers expectations.

The reason for all the 'India Focus Group' etc etc:
"Our Inflight customer satisfaction levels on all indian routes are consistently 10% lower than then BA longhaul network average. This covers both UK and non-UK passengers and would indicate that our customers perceive that the service on these routes is lower than on others".

Changes to the Onboard Product:

- An investment of GBP1 million in a package of enhancement to the onboard product on indian routes.

World Traveller and World Traveller Plus: (From Oct 05)
- New menus ex India
- On MAA,CCU,BLR the removal of the second 'hot baguette service' and the re-instatement of a second hot meal.
- Cold snacks for mid flight

FIRST/Club World (From Apr 06)
- Working with the renowned chef Vineet Bhatia (the first Michelin starred Indian chef in europe) the development of a new Indian style cuisine and eating experience.
 
Pe@rson
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:39 pm

BA’s second-daily service from LHR to DEL is in Amadeus.net now.

The additional service, #257, will be operated by the 772. It’ll depart LHR at 1700 and arrive into DEL at 0605. It’ll depart DEL, as #256, at 0820 and arrive into LHR at 1315.

The existing service, #143 and #142, will remain operated by the 744.

Amadeus currently has LHR-MAA at 6-times-weekly even in June, although this could obviously change at any point.

BLR is still at 5-times-weekly even in June, but, again, could easily change
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jaysit
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:46 pm

Quoting Spike (Reply 11):
Apart from that, I'd give the whole place a very wide berth until the government invests in its society. Indian airports, companies, infrastructure, banks and media are a joke.

Indian companies a joke?
What dense bubble are you living in?
Foreign investment in India is growing by double digits, and foreign investment by Indian companies in overseas markets is increasing even faster. The biggest competitors in the US pharmaceutical market today are Indian pharma companies. And who do you think is the world's second largest exporter of software after the US? India.

Btw, even with BA's double daily into Bom, I can't get a seat on BA into Bom in December. Flights are all sold out.

Quoting Spike (Reply 11):
Seeing as India buys very little (look at the airport you land in),

WTF are you talking about?
Its only the fastest growing economy in the world (having grown at 8.5%) the past quarter.
The wretched state of India's airports have precious little to do with Indian consumerism.
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Pe@rson
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:51 pm

BA have some very good fares to India at the moment, including £399 return all-in to both BOM and MAA.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Pe@rson
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:57 pm

While I realise that the demand between the UK and India and vice-versa is huge, I wonder how many people connect, from other British destinations, mainland Europe, North America, or wherever, onto BA's India flights. Does anyone know?
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
monkeyboi
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:01 am

I don't know Pea@rson, but I DO know that BA was fed up with the amount of passengers flying to India/Pakistan/Bangladesh with EK/QR etc via the gulf.
 
Pomnath
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Wed Oct 12, 2005 4:53 pm

Quoting Monkeyboi (Reply 29):
but I DO know that BA was fed up with the amount of passengers flying to India/Pakistan/Bangladesh with EK/QR etc via the gulf.

BA (and for that matter, VS) will be even more fed up with the numbers that start moving on 9W and the newly resurgent AI, especially on the non-LHR services.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 25):
BA’s second-daily service from LHR to DEL is in Amadeus.net now. The additional service, #257, will be operated by the 772. It’ll depart LHR at 1700 and arrive into DEL at 0605. It’ll depart DEL, as #256, at 0820 and arrive into LHR at 1315.

This slot is neither here nor there for both DEL and LON passengers. But yes, it does manage to give decent onward connections.

Quoting Monkeyboi (Reply 24):
An 'Indian Routes Focus Group' has also been set up within BA. Their job is to look at every aspect of the customer journey; from booking, the airport experience, inflight service & catering, arrivals and transfers, as well as improvements to the Executive Club.

Sales and Marketing are gearing up for major advertising campaigns in the UK, India and North America. The message of these campaigns will focus on the world of opportunity BA is opening up to India through increased services, a global network and an enhanced product offering.

There will be an 'Indian Route Focus roadshow' in the crew report centre at LHR to allow the cabin crew to gain knowledge and ask questions about Indian culture and Indian passengers expectations.

The reason for all the 'India Focus Group' etc etc:
"Our Inflight customer satisfaction levels on all indian routes are consistently 10% lower than then BA longhaul network average. This covers both UK and non-UK passengers and would indicate that our customers perceive that the service on these routes is lower than on others".

And about time too. Privatisation of domestic airlines in India has set service level expectations at a por-customer level. This is not unreasonable to expect. Condescending and patronising attitudes (at best) and absolute outright racism (at worst), of the sort that VS are known for and BA sometimes make the cut, are simply not acceptable to people on the India routes anymore.

Nobody is asking for the moon, but if this is a route where people will ask for water all the time, well place litre bottles in their seat pockets. If this is a route where people will ask for hot meals, well either arrange them or inform passengers before booking that hot meals are not on.

Likewise, snide jokes on toilet habits and "curry smells" are not acceptable even in jest anymore, since we know how Britsh football tourists wreck planes and what they smell of, which apparently is fine by the same airline cabin crew?

But most of all, what is not acceptable to me as an Indian paying for a ticket is a dismissive attitude by airline staff at the airport counter. We are intelligent enough to know who is from the airport or from the State/Country, and who is from the airline. When things reach a level at LHR where the Customs & Immigration and Airport Security staff seem to have been sensitised about the way they need to treat people, then airline security and counter staff have no reason or right to be downright rude.

And therein lies the key. If BA wants to clean up its act, then they simply need to stop calling the next passenger with the crook of their finger, to start with.
Sea to Sky, Racists should Die!!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:01 pm

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 30):
Privatisation of domestic airlines in India has set service level expectations at a por-customer level

Very true.Can't wait for the International Flying rule of 5yrs to be dropped to 3yrs.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Pe@rson
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:10 pm

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 30):
This slot is neither here nor there for both DEL and LON passengers.

I would choose the new flights times every time if it was the same price: it is far more convenient.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Pomnath
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:21 pm

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 32):
Quoting Pomnath (Reply 30):
This slot is neither here nor there for both DEL and LON passengers.

I would choose the new flights times every time if it was the same price: it is far more convenient.

As pure Delhi or London passengers, the convenience of a late night departure LHR and a morning arrival DEL is crown only by a comfortable afternoon departure from an almost empty DEL to an early evening arrival LHR.

This 5pm departure LHR and 8am departure DEL, oh well.
Sea to Sky, Racists should Die!!
 
Pe@rson
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:23 pm

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 33):
This 5pm departure LHR and 8am departure DEL

... is very nice indeed.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Nimish
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:35 pm

Quoting Monkeyboi (Reply 24):
as well as improvements to the Executive Club.

Much needed to get a lot of Indian fliers on BA - currently I can't earn a single mile on BA if I fly any of their economy fares, and there's no sense in paying for a higher fare, when I can fly LH/AI/Gulf and earn full miles at discounted fares.

Quoting Monkeyboi (Reply 24):
New menus ex India
- On MAA,CCU,BLR the removal of the second 'hot baguette service' and the re-instatement of a second hot meal.
- Cold snacks for mid flight

And contrast this with BMI - charging for alcohol, and for snacks. Really, they might as well stop the BOM flight altogether, rather than struggle to increase the frequency to daily, and then bitch to all about the low yields on this route!
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schipholjfk
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:03 am

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 5):
It is obvious to most of us here in India that the travel business to the US will suffer co-terminus with the developments in the US economy. Obviously the aircraft for India are coming from those pulled off the US routes.

WHAT????? Exactly what is the problem with US Economy? Still less than 5% unemployment and another month of growth inspite of Hurricanes, etc.
The fun of flying... love it !!!
 
mrniji
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RE: BA Doubling Flights To India- How's It Possible

Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:39 pm

Quoting Schipholjfk (Reply 36):
Still less than 5% unemployment

Unemployment figures are inadequate alone for the interpretation of the economy if they are not followed by other figures
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)