CV990
Topic Author
Posts: 4224
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 3:49 am

AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:08 pm

Hi!

I've just finnished to make a reservation with American. First time I'm flying with them so I'm quite curious to see how they operate and also I want to check their fleet too!
I've notice that I'll be flying some airplanes that I'm sure AA is thinking about replacing them. From BOG to MIA I'll fly in the A300-600, a plane that I found out is in AA fleet since 1989. And also from DFW to FAT I'll be flying the MD83. I know that this type is getting some good years in AA service so my question will be - what AA will get to replace these two models? In my opinion and because it looks that AA is much relying on Boeing that the 787 could be a good replacement for the A300. In the case of the MD80 I think the 737-600 and 700 would fit perfectly, specially taking in mind that AA already uses the 737-800.
I'm looking forward to fly with them and see how they go!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
irelayer
Posts: 929
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:34 pm

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:15 pm

There are tons of threads on this. The replacement for the A300's will probably be a downsize...787's are a possibility but nothing else comes to mind for a direct 1-1 replacement. The replacement for the Mad Dogs will probably be either the 737NG or whatever Boeing comes up with next in that category. Regardless of when they replace them, AA has a gentleman's agreement to only buy Boeing's (unless it is commuter aircraft). The Mad Dogs will hang around for the while for sure due to the sheer number of them and AA's financial situation.

-IR
 
DeltaWings
Posts: 1234
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:06 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:26 pm

The only other plane in the size of the A300 is the 787-8/3. The A300s may also be replaced by some 777s along with the 787.
The 737-700 is of course the ideal replacement for the MDs
Homer: Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen.
 
MX757
Posts: 495
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:38 pm

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:27 pm

Quoting IRelayer (Reply 1):
The Mad Dogs will hang around for the while for sure due to the sheer number of them and AA's financial situation.

I agree, AA still has almost 300 MD-80's. And some of them at not that old. TWA was still purchasing them until 2000. They were the last MD-80 customer.
Is it broke...? Yeah I'll fix it.
 
mauriceb
Posts: 2150
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:50 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:48 pm

the MD-80's will be around for atleast 10 years... they have 300+ of them and so it would cost a lot to replace them all together at one time... so most likely is that the oldest will leave first , being replaced by a small number of 737-700/800 or whatever boeing comes with . think we might see the last MD-80 leave the fleet in about 15/17 years.....
 
CV990
Topic Author
Posts: 4224
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 3:49 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:02 pm

Hi!

AA is operating 300 MD80's???? I never realized that! Anyway if they indeed have new MD83 has the ones that came from TWA of course they will stay around for a good bunch of years. But if we talk about the Airbus A300 I think AA must be thinking seriously to start to replace them. Anyway thanks for your feedback! I guess I will have my day flying the A300 but the MD80 I'll have a few more years to try too!
regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
mauriceb
Posts: 2150
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:50 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:11 pm

woops sorry, i mean 200 plus....... they have about 240 i thought
 
User avatar
American 767
Posts: 3922
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 7:27 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:43 pm

Yes sure the ideal MD-80 replacement would be the B737-700, as stated American already operates the 800 and has a few more of those on order waiting to be delivered in one or two years from now, but as you certainly know American isn't in a very good shape financially to buy new aircraft, they are struggling to avoid having to file CH11 BK protection. However by the time American recovers from losses, Boeing will probably announce a NG737 replacement (probably the 797 that will have the same technology as the 787 and will replace both the 757 and the 737 2nd and 3rd generation) so American will likely opt for that one, unless they choose the 737-900X as 757 replacement. I think that either they go for the new airplane Boeing will announce or they order additional NG737's if delivery slots are not secured, in other worlds if they need additional aircraft and the delivery schedules for the new airplane are already filled for the short term future.

MauriceB, the oldest MD-80 has already left the fleet and is unlikely to return to service with AA, the older 767-200's as well. If you look at pictures of AA 767-200's scrapped in the Southwestern desert you will probably see a few MD-80's scrapped as well. The oldest MD-80 is over 20 years old. But yes it is true that the youngest one is only 5 years old and is the last one to come out of the McDD assembly line, so you will likely see them until the end of next decade. I'm not sure upgrading the engines to meet Stage IV requirements would be an economical solution, because eventhough the engine may be much quieter and the fuel consumption may decrease, the airframe will increase in age and will more likely face metal fatigue. Whenver an aircraft reaches a certain number of cycles, it goes to retirement. Same kind of discussion as when a thread about NW DC-9's comes up regularly.

The A300-600 has, like you said, been around since 1989, the last one being delivered in 1993, but they are not yet due to be retired. Although American Airlines and Airbus are not "friends" anymore for two reasons, one is keepeing flying the aircraft bare metal and the other is flight 587, they(AA) are likely to keep operating their 34 A300's (they had 35 minus one that crashed) for several more years, I would say until eary next decade, on the East Coast and Latin America sectors. They will continue to be based in JFK and MIA. The A300 has a lot of cargo capacity so it suits best the airline to fly them out mostly out of MIA. I would certainly like to fly on one of those again. I expect the last A300 to leave the fleet in 2015 at the latest. As discussed in other replies above, there isn't a newer aircraft at Boeing that exactly matches the A300 capacity pax and/or cargo so replacing it with 787-3/8's and additional 777's would make sense, the 787 that AA could order will replace first the 767-200's and then the oldest 767-300ER's. Those date from the 80's.
My understanding is that the baseline version of the 787 will replace the A300 and the 767-200, and the long range version of the 787 will later on replace the 767-300ER but that's not for the near future.

Ben Soriano
Brussels Belgium
Ben Soriano
 
A388
Posts: 7157
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 8:47 pm

As the others have said: A300-600 will be 787 and MD80s will be 737NG. This has probably been discussed a lot too, but will Boeing be able to paint the 787 in bare metal (silver) colours as the 787 will be using a composite fuselage?

A388  Smile
 
Orion737
Posts: 3044
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:14 pm

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 9:02 pm

The A300-600 is a difficult aircraft to replace, as there isnt a direct replacement available with the same capacity and more important cargo capacity.

The A300-600R and A310 is a sized market neglected by Airbus and Boeing.
 
tavong
Posts: 688
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2001 1:59 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:12 pm

Quoting American 767 (Reply 7):
The A300-600 has, like you said, been around since 1989, the last one being delivered in 1993, but they are not yet due to be retired. Although American Airlines and Airbus are not "friends" anymore for two reasons, one is keepeing flying the aircraft bare metal and the other is flight 587,

Excuse my ignorance but can you explain me why keeping the plane flying bare metal is a problem for Airbus???

Gus
SKBO
Just put me on any modern airliner and i will be happy, give me more star alliance miles and i will be a lot more happy.
 
atrude777
Posts: 4258
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:19 pm

Quoting Tavong (Reply 10):

Excuse my ignorance but can you explain me why keeping the plane flying bare metal is a problem for Airbus???

Composite materials which is not bare metal, it had to be painted a light gray for awhile.

Quoting American 767 (Reply 7):
but as you certainly know American isn't in a very good shape financially to buy new aircraft, they are struggling to avoid having to file CH11 BK protection.

I wouldn't call it struggling. AA has nearly 2 or 3 Billion in cash reserves. FAR more then any airline has. If they wanted to, they could pay for planes right now. But they are simpling withholding at the moment.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
JAM747
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:17 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:38 pm

What did AA replace the older 767-200 with? I just read in Airways magazine that they retired some a few years back and some were scrapped.
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 7982
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 11:45 pm

In my humble opinion, I think AA may be looking at a long-life extension program for the MD8x fleet like what NW did with their DC-9 fleet.

We'll definitely see interior upgrades and possibly cockpit upgrades, and I wouldn't be surprised that AA maybe considering a re-engining program that replaces the original JT8D-217/219 engines with something like the PW6024 engine for lower fuel burn and compliance with future noise and exhaust emission regulations.

As for the A300B4-600R replacement, AA might be looking at the 787-9, but in a special lower-MTOW variant with about 5,500 to 6,000 nautical mile still-air range for use on Caribbean and some South American routes.
 
LMP737
Posts: 4800
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 11:53 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 13):
We'll definitely see interior upgrades and possibly cockpit upgrades, and I wouldn't be surprised that AA maybe considering a re-engining program that replaces the original JT8D-217/219 engines with something like the PW6024 engine for lower fuel burn and compliance with future noise and exhaust emission regulations.

If reengining of the MD-80's were to occur my money would be on the BR715. What suprises me is that a company like Aviation Partners has not come up with a winglet for the MD-80.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
luisca
Posts: 1530
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:37 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 11:54 pm

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 9):
The A300-600 is a difficult aircraft to replace, as there isnt a direct replacement available with the same capacity and more important cargo capacity.

The A300-600R and A310 is a sized market neglected by Airbus and Boeing.

Isnt the 787-9 a perfect A300 replacement in term of passenger and cargo capacity? And it even exceeds the A300 in range.

Also I understand that the main reason that AA has problems with Airbus is that they feel they got a crappy deal on those A300's and that they paid far more than they should have?
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
boeingbus
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 12:37 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:10 am

MD80 fleet will stick around for awhile.... At this point, AA is going to hold out for the new generation narrow bodies. I can AA being a launch customer for the new 737 or A320.

A300 replacement is more likely sooner rather than later. A300 is a great cargo freighter so I can see AA ditching those birds to UPS, FedEx or some Asian Cargo joint. 787 is a natural choice for AA. For one reason alone, Airbus doesn't have anything that stacks up to the 783 and 8. I think many here read too much into Flight 587. Yes, there was a major disagreement and lawsuites but at the end AA needs to get great pricing so there will always be a A vs B competition. At this point, Airbus can underprice a bit for the largest airlines in the world.

Just my 2 cents.

As far as your flight experience CV, the MD80 is a great bird. A300's interior are, how should I put it, old and almost falling apart. AA is not investing any money in the A300 fleet. You will also notice that AA and as with most legacy airlines in the states due to all the layoffs and such... the flight attendants are old hags. They look tired and don't always put the best foot forward. So don't expect great service just wrinkles and a frown. lol... You need to try JetBlue as it's an amazing experience and by far the best service. Plus, all new A320 and soon E190's.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5806
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:20 am

Quoting American 767 (Reply 7):
Yes sure the ideal MD-80 replacement would be the B737-700, as stated American already operates the 800 and has a few more of those on order waiting to be delivered in one or two years from now, but as you certainly know American isn't in a very good shape financially to buy new aircraft, they are struggling to avoid having to file CH11 BK protection.

Uh, AA is not "struggling to avoid having to file CH11."
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
LY4XELD
Posts: 659
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 5:14 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:54 am

Quoting JAM747 (Reply 12):
What did AA replace the older 767-200 with? I just read in Airways magazine that they retired some a few years back and some were scrapped.

Those aircraft have been in ROW for a long time and, to my knowledge, weren't replaced with anything. Sadly, tail numbers 301 and 302 are now history as they were cannibalized for parts and met their fate with a airplane eater.

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 16):
I can AA being a launch customer for the new 737 or A320.

I would bet my bank account that AA will not buy an A320. Maintenance programs that are currently in place would work much better with a Boeing aircraft and at less expense than introducing a new (compared to the A300) Airbus aircraft.
That's why we're here.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:14 am

Quoting CV990 (Reply 5):
But if we talk about the Airbus A300 I think AA must be thinking seriously to start to replace them.

Why? There is no replacement for them at this point, and they're cash cows.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 11):
Composite materials which is not bare metal, it had to be painted a light gray for awhile.

That's not entirely it... it also had to do with the type of aluminum used and Airbus didn't want to warrant the plane without paint.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 13):
As for the A300B4-600R replacement, AA might be looking at the 787-9, but in a special lower-MTOW variant with about 5,500 to 6,000 nautical mile still-air range for use on Caribbean and some South American routes.

what? Why? The 787-9 is much much bigger than the A300 and certainly much heavier. The 787-3 is the right size for this application, but is less capable and heavier.

As I've said before, I'm dubious of the value of the 787-3, but have no doubt it will be AA's choice to replace the A300 and the only plane on the market to really do it,

Quoting Luisca (Reply 15):
Isnt the 787-9 a perfect A300 replacement in term of passenger and cargo capacity?

The 787-9 is much too large and capable.

N
 
ckfred
Posts: 4694
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:16 am

I asked a friend of mine who is a pilot with AA what he thought would happen to the MD-80 fleet. He feels that there is some chance that down the road, AA will replace the oldest 40 to 60 MD-80s with 737NGs, either the -700 or the -800 series.

The rest of the fleet could undergo enough upgrades (engines, avionics, etc.) that it would last until Boeing rolls out the replacement for the 737NG, based on 787 technology.

IRelayer:

For agreeing to the Boeing/McD merger, the EU required Boeing to drop the contract language that made it the exclusive aircraft supplier for AA, CO, and DL. But AA still is obligated to buy about 625 aircraft over a 20-year period, starting in either 1998 or 1999. I think AA has taken delivery of around 200 aircraft, so AA still has 13 or 14 years to buy another 425 aircraft.
 
commavia
Posts: 9626
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:21 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 19):
Why? There is no replacement for them at this point, and they're cash cows.

Quite simply, they are pieces of junk.

The planes have an atrocious maintenance record, they are the most unreliable aircraft in the fleet, and they cost millions in inventories, labor, and out-of-schedule time as a result. In addition, the planes are completely non-standard with the rest of the fleet at this point and are a very small fleet to justify all the costs for. The only reasons why the A300s are still flying are -- as you say -- that they make tons of money (because of the cargo capacity only, not because of their reliability or superior economics, I assure you) and because to this point there was not a suitable replacement that AA could afford.

Well, all that is changing. AA is desperately trying to simplify its fleet and get rid of small fleet types that no longer justify the expense of their operations. The A300 is the definition of this type of fleet. A suitable replacement will soon be available, as the 787-3 in a 2-class layout will be a perfect A300 replacement in both passenger and freight capabilities, and thus I fully expect that AA will probably order them at some point in the next few years.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:54 am

I don't understand why American has trouble with this fleet of planes. The A300 tops the reliability list pretty much everywhere else, just not at AA.

N
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8538
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:47 am

>> I don't understand why American has trouble with this fleet of planes. The A300 tops the reliability list pretty much everywhere else, just not at AA.

Disregarding the "reliability" claim, the pressing factor of AA's A300 fleet is the fact that they are leased aircraft. If I remember correctly, the first set of leases are due to expire in 2009?

If AA does not extend the leases, then the dimished economics of dimished scale might hasten the departure of the remaining owned aircraft.
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 10997
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:58 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 19):
The 787-3 is the right size for this application, but is less capable and heavier.

?? How do you know that? Boeing is looking at a 3500nm range for the B-787-300, but no firm decision has been made on range, or cargo carrying capability. BTW, according to Airbus, the A-300-600R has a range of 4150nm. The B-787-300 might well be the last of the current Dreamliners to certify. So Boeing has a lot of time to adjust the numbers. It will have the same fuselarge as the B-787-800, but a much shorter wing. That's pretty much all we know now.

Also, how do you know the B-787-300 is heavier than the A-300-600R?

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 19):
Why? There is no replacement for them at this point, and they're cash cows.

They may or may not be cash cows, but AA thinks of the A-300-600R as maintenance whores.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 23):
Disregarding the "reliability" claim, the pressing factor of AA's A300 fleet is the fact that they are leased aircraft. If I remember correctly, the first set of leases are due to expire in 2009?

If AA does not extend the leases, then the dimished economics of dimished scale might hasten the departure of the remaining owned aircraft.

That's the bottom line. Thanks DfwRevolution.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 10:02 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 24):
Boeing is looking at a 3500nm range for the B-787-300, but no firm decision has been made on range, or cargo carrying capability.

They're not toying with these things anymore. They've published the numbers.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 24):
Also, how do you know the B-787-300 is heavier than the A-300-600R?

Because I read the Boeing documentation on it? It has an OEW of around 101t. The A300-600R's is about 90. 11 tons is a fair amount.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 24):
The B-787-300 might well be the last of the current Dreamliners to certify.

No it won't. JAL and ANA both ordered the plane. The -9 has received no orders.

N
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 10:07 am

Quoting IRelayer (Reply 1):
AA has a gentleman's agreement to only buy Boeing's (unless it is commuter aircraft)

Does this hurt American when they go to the table with Boeing.

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 6):


woops sorry, i mean 200 plus....... they have about 240 i thought

Right the first time. 361 aircraft.

AAndrew
 
commavia
Posts: 9626
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 10:22 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 26):
Does this hurt American when they go to the table with Boeing.

Not really, as Boeing knows that it is getting a great deal, too. A single customer -- in need of hundreds of new planes over the next 10-20 years -- giving Boeing billions worth of aircraft orders is not exactly the short end of the stick for Boeing. While some contend that AA hurts itself by promising its business to Boeing, I think both parties view this rather as a mutual benefit to both.
 
777STL
Posts: 2770
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:22 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 10:38 am

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 11):
I wouldn't call it struggling. AA has nearly 2 or 3 Billion in cash reserves. FAR more then any airline has. If they wanted to, they could pay for planes right now. But they are simpling withholding at the moment.

Uh, well, they're not healthy either. NW had 1.7 billion in cash reserves when they entered bankruptcy, if you account for the size difference between NW and AA, that's roughly equal to the 3 billion AA has on hand.

And if oil prices keep rising, 3 billion is going to be a trivial amount in the grand scheme of things. DL lost 5.2 billion in 2004 alone. So figure for an airline the size of AA, with higher fuel costs, that could only be the difference of 6 months or so.
PHX based
 
cloudy
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 11:08 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 25):
They're not toying with these things anymore. They've published the numbers.

However, these numbers are not contractual commitments. They published "numbers" on the sonic cruiser as well. They have committed to a couple airlines that they would indeed build a short range version of the 787, but that's about it. The exact numbers have not been fixed yet. They could add more range or cargo capability. The only thing they could not change, from what I've heard, is the fuselage length. A lot depends on what the Japanese want, since that is the main market for the short range bird.

Also, someone said that there would be a shorter wing but the same fuselage. From what I've read in AWST and here, what will happen is that the fuselage for the short range version will be virtually the same but will be less heavy and less strong than that of the long range version. This is in addition to the wing changes. This gives a lower empty weight, at the expense of having a lower maximum takeoff weight. The lower empty weight means better fuel efficiency since you are carrying less airplane around. The lower maximum takeoff weight is because the aircraft does not have the structural strength to carry as much fuel as the heavier version.

It is easier to do the above with composites with aluminum for some reason, or so I have heard. If this is so, a composite 737 replacement could have a long range and short range version as well.
 
N62NA
Posts: 3984
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 11:33 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 16):
You will also notice that AA and as with most legacy airlines in the states due to all the layoffs and such... the flight attendants are old hags. They look tired and don't always put the best foot forward. So don't expect great service just wrinkles and a frown.

Can't let this one go without saying something.

OK, that's your opinion and you are entitled to it, but my experience has been always a positive one with regards to the AA flight attendants. While I'm no road warrior, I do fly with AA on average 12 to 15 times a year, mostly domestic runs out of MIA, but also have been on AA to LHR.
 
kanebear
Posts: 852
Joined: Tue May 28, 2002 12:06 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:42 pm

Old hags? You sure you aren't getting UA and AA mixed up? How often do you fly American? I have only ever seen ONE FA at AA who I'd consider close to qualifying for "elderly". That was on DFW-LGW in F. Having flown the route numerous times since (also in F), I've not run across any surly grammies. As for UA... not sure about the rest of 'em but Iris retired quite a while ago.  Smile
 
Whataboutme
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:21 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:45 pm

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 16):
the flight attendants are old hags. They look tired and don't always put the best foot forward. So don't expect great service just wrinkles and a frown. lol... You need to try JetBlue as it's an amazing experience and by far the best service.

You are a complete idiot.. AA might have some old flight attendants and they got to where they are from their hard work and all the wage concession they gave up. I have stated it before in another thread " Flight Attendants are their for your safety", not to feed your lasy a$$. AA doesn't need someone like you flying them, so stay with JetBlue. AA won't shed a tear cause you aren't sitting in one of their seat. AA has their loyal customers.
Peace Out
 
Aviation
Posts: 1110
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 9:28 pm

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:48 pm

Two more graceful birds fall from the sky  Sad


Thanks,
Aaron J Nicoli
Signed, Aaron Nicoli - Trans World Airlines Collector
 
B4REAL
Posts: 2557
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 5:53 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:49 pm

I'd think 737-7/800 or whatever the next concept 737 offers would be the most logical fit for the MD-8x a/c. For the A300 I'd love to see the 767-400 in AA colors - but there are too many reasons why that would never happen: limited cargo, obscure model, questionable 767 future, better off with a 777 in that space. But, it would really be cool the 764 for AA. So, before I get reamed for making the 764 suggestion, it's more of a crack-pipe fantasy of mine.
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
skymileman
Posts: 577
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2001 2:32 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:24 pm

As mentioned above, will the 787 be able to be made to look bare metal? That would be too bad if it could not.
 
commavia
Posts: 9626
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:32 pm

Quoting Skymileman (Reply 35):
As mentioned above, will the 787 be able to be made to look bare metal?

This is an oft-repeated question mark about AA and the 787. The 787 is almost all composite, and thus would not have the bare metal signature of AA. However, I have no doubt that if AA were to the plane, it would be able to paint the plane a highly metallic silver color and still recognize huge fuel economy savings over the A300s.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:34 pm

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 31):
Old hags? You sure you aren't getting UA and AA mixed up? How often do you fly American? I have only ever seen ONE FA at AA who I'd consider close to qualifying for "elderly". That was on DFW-LGW in F. Having flown the route numerous times since (also in F), I've not run across any surly grammies. As for UA... not sure about the rest of 'em but Iris retired quite a while ago. Smile



Quoting Whataboutme (Reply 32):

You are a complete idiot.. AA might have some old flight attendants and they got to where they are from their hard work and all the wage concession they gave up. I have stated it before in another thread " Flight Attendants are their for your safety", not to feed your lasy a$$



Quoting Whataboutme (Reply 32):
AA doesn't need someone like you flying them, so stay with JetBlue. AA won't shed a tear cause you aren't sitting in one of their seat. AA has their loyal customers.

well..considering I'm an AA Executive Platinum member .....AA could use my hard-earned money...........and yes, most of the AA f/a's do tend to be of the "older type".......they get the job done, but I do see many reading their mags in the back and not helping their pax too much.....on the other hand, I see many of the foreign carrier f/a's to be much better.........and with EK a few years ago, much, much hotter. biggrin 
"Up the Irons!"
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:55 pm

Aren't the 738 and MD-80 relatively the same in terms of capacity? If so, why would they replace the MD-80 with a lower-capacity -723, especially if they already have the -823?
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:27 pm

Quoting Skymileman (Reply 35):
As mentioned above, will the 787 be able to be made to look bare metal? That would be too bad if it could not.

It wouldn't be possible, no. The 787 will be black when unpainted.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 36):
However, I have no doubt that if AA were to the plane, it would be able to paint the plane a highly metallic silver color and still recognize huge fuel economy savings over the A300s.

We just don't know if that is going to be true. The plane is 11 tons heavier and is targeting fuel savings vs. the also much heaver A330.

We're going to have to see. Maybe Widebodyphotog can provide us a magic chart that compares the 763A, AB6, and 783.

N
 
777STL
Posts: 2770
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:22 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:14 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 37):
and with EK a few years ago, much, much hotter.

That's all the fun of flying international, seeing all the hot foreign F/As!

I did two international sectors and three domestics sectors on QF a couple months ago. Not one unattractive or elderly FA, I was pleased....
PHX based
 
SKA380
Posts: 141
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:46 pm

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:49 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 40):

Why on earth are we suddenly comparing this to the A330?
 
Whataboutme
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:21 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 11:55 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 37):
well..considering I'm an AA Executive Platinum member .....AA could use my hard-earned money

In all reality they don't..

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 37):
yes, most of the AA f/a's do tend to be of the "older type".......they get the job done, but I do see many reading their mags in the back and not helping their pax too much.

I want you to remember this statement when you get to be and I quote "OLDER TYPE", when you are at you desk reading your AARP news letter and not paying attention to you clients.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 37):
on the other hand, I see many of the foreign carrier f/a's to be much better.........and with EK a few years ago, much, much hotter.

You sound like a sexist pig.
 
boeingbus
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 12:37 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:42 am

Quoting Whataboutme (Reply 32):
I have stated it before in another thread " Flight Attendants are their for your safety", not to feed your lasy a$$.

Should I feel safe then with a geriatic FA team? Look, I am not trying to discriminate because of age, be mean spirited or turn this into a joke. But this is no different then seeing a fat cop stuffing donuts in his mouth. That guy is never going to chase after a criminal. But this is not my point to the post. I just find it interesting the older the FA the more aggravating the flight is. I prefer a younger more dynamic FA's. - thats all.

Quoting Whataboutme (Reply 32):
AA won't shed a tear cause you aren't sitting in one of their seat. AA has their loyal customers.

Bingo, You hit it right on the button of why legacy carriers are losing passangers and money. Compare this to other countries accross the globe where the legacy carriers of the respected country don't discount as much to compete w/ LCC because their customers don't mind paying for better service.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 37):
and yes, most of the AA f/a's do tend to be of the "older type"

Thanks, I wasn't just dreaming of wrinkles.

Cheers!
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:59 am

Quoting SKA380 (Reply 41):
Why on earth are we suddenly comparing this to the A330?

Um, because that's what the 787 is designed to compete against and the numbers being published about fuel savings are mostly in reference to the A330.

N
 
commavia
Posts: 9626
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:10 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 43):
Compare this to other countries accross the globe where the legacy carriers of the respected country don't discount as much to compete w/ LCC because their customers don't mind paying for better service.

You just hit the nail on the head!

That may be true in other countries, but not in the U.S. In the U.S., air travel -- for the vast majority of people -- is now essentially one step above Greyhound. Air travel is such a commodity and the levels of service across many different competitors in a given market are not that enormously different. As such, most customers now differentiate between competitors based on price and price alone. In a consumer market where the behavior dictates that customers pretty much care only about price, price and price (and also usually punctuality and safety), that is what customers are going to get -- a product focused much more on the price point than the service level.
 
phollingsworth
Posts: 635
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:05 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:16 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 39):
We just don't know if that is going to be true. The plane is 11 tons heavier and is targeting fuel savings vs. the also much heaver A330.

We're going to have to see. Maybe Widebodyphotog can provide us a magic chart that compares the 763A, AB6, and 783.

Welcome to the world of propulsion systems. Due to the noise and fuel burn requirements that ICAO, EU, Boeing, Airbus, etc. have set the engines on the 787/350 are about 2 tons per engine heavier when compared to the A330 engines. When you add in the pylon and wing structure build up this comes to around 3 tons per engine. The difference is even greater when comparing against the A300 and B767.

An interesting side note is that the design metrics for the B787-3 seem to be tailored to Japanese and Asian airlines more so than towards US carriers. The larger vertical stab is the epitome of this as it was specifically asked for by the Japanese. I would not be surprised to see Boeing offer a 787-8 with winglets instead of swept-tips for the likes of AA, and DL (provided they survive). DL for instance could not use the 787-8 as it stands now to replace their 767-300/ER/400s as the wingspan is too large for the domestic gates at ATL. There are only a few gates that are not on Concourse E that can handle the 787-8. The 787-3 fits in most of the ATL gates but does not have the range for a number of 767-300ER/400 missions that DL flies, i.e. Hawaii.

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 38):
Aren't the 738 and MD-80 relatively the same in terms of capacity? If so, why would they replace the MD-80 with a lower-capacity -723, especially if they already have the -823?

The 738 is a 722 replacement aircraft, the MD-81/2/3/8 are smaller McD did not true match size capacity of the 722 until the MD-90 (which actually is a little smaller). However, you are correct in noticing that the 73G is actually smaller than most of the MD-80s, it is roughly the same size as the MD-87. The 737 that is sized against the MD-80 was the 734. The other problem the the 737NGs have when compared to the MD-80s is that they have a significantly larger and heavier wing. This eats them alive on shorter trips, one of the reasons why the 735 is often preferable to the 736 or 318.

A quick size comparison (rough, mission performance differs greatly)

737-100 – DC9-10/20
737-200 – 737-500 – 737-600 – DC9-30 – 717 – A318
737-300 – 737-700 – DC9-50 – MD-87 – A319
737-400 – MD-81/2/3/8
727-200 – 737-800 – MD-90 – A320
737-900/ER – A321
 
AA767400
Posts: 1889
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:42 am

Quoting B4real (Reply 34):
For the A300 I'd love to see the 767-400 in AA colors - but there are too many reasons why that would never happen: limited cargo, obscure model, questionable 767 future, better off with a 777 in that space. But, it would really be cool the 764 for AA. So, before I get reamed for making the 764 suggestion, it's more of a crack-pipe fantasy of mine.

Don't worry, You are not the only one with that crack-pipe fantasy. Check out my name.  Smile

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 37):
but I do see many reading their mags in the back and not helping their pax too much..

Helping passengers do what? Turn on their reading light? Or help with their personal problems?  confused 

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 43):
Bingo, You hit it right on the button of why legacy carriers are losing passangers and money. Compare this to other countries accross the globe where the legacy carriers of the respected country don't discount as much to compete w/ LCC because their customers don't mind paying for better service.

Bingo! Welcome to America! This is not just a legacy problem, but a problem in all sectors across the Untied States. People in this country want a free ride, and don't want to work hard for the money. Don't blame it on the airlines, blame it on the American society. The only solution to this problem is to hire a all third world group of employees, and even then as soon as they start to feel the selfish,lazy, and depressed culture that we live in here it will all go back to the way it was. No one takes pride in what they do in this country, Far and few do.

Back to the original thread....I Believe the 300's lease was up around 2006-2007? Can someone confirm their lease expiration date.
"The low fares airline."
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18091
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:03 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 45):
In a consumer market where the behavior dictates that customers pretty much care only about price,

No one has yet shown me that the consumer is "demanding" this - beyond the generalization that people always want something cheaper.

It may be that the consumers are simply taking advantage of what they are given - really cheap fares.

It seems to have been the intention of the legacy carriers, since the downturn began, to maintain as much as possible of their previous market share, and the only way to maintain that market share is to lower prices.

This ignores the fact that there has been a massive increase in capacity since the downturn began, and that to expect to maintain market share in the face of the successful newcomers is (a) difficult and (b) costly.

Delta seemed to take the view, pre-bankruptcy, that if they flew to almost everywhere almost all the time they wouldn't go bankrupt. Now that they are bankrupt, it seems a bit late to be cutting capacity and frequency.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if one legacy should say "screw market share - we're going for profit, first and foremost."

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
flashmeister
Posts: 2671
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 4:32 am

RE: AA Replacement For The MD80's And A300-600.

Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:29 am

According to AMR's 2004 Annual Report (off their website, in the Investor Relations section), the upcoming lease expirations for MD80 and A300 are:

2005: 10 MD-80s
2006: None
2007: 1 MD-80
2008: 12 MD-80s and 3 A300s
2009: 6 MD-80s and 3 A300s
2010+: 181 MD-80s and 18 A300s

Also of note:
- 15 757s have leases expiring in 2007.
- In 2008, a total of 29 aircraft come up for renewal, including MD-80, A300, 752, 762ER, and 763ER.

Who is online