aa777flyer
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UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:25 am

I was talking with a friend of mine who is a member of senior management for United at IAD. He told me that once UA exits bankruptcy they will place a large order for new Airbus/Boeing aircraft. He said that UA will likely be the launch customer for the 747-Advanced. UA will also order more A320 family to replace 757/737 aircraft as well as 787 to replace the 767 fleet.
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DeltaWings
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:34 am

Quoting Aa777flyer (Thread starter):
He said that UA will likely be the launch customer for the 747-Advanced.

By the time they exit Ch 11 another airline could have grabbed it first. They may be in longer then they think. Plus other airlines are interested in it and may order it pretty soon once they get the go-ahead. (CX, JA, QF, Cargolux etc.)
Homer: Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen.
 
sfuk
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:42 am

From what I read in they're restructuring report they'll be obtaining quite a few A320's for United USA

Stu
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:45 am

If true that would be a nice mix. Boeing widebodies and Airbus narrows.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
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American 767
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:45 am

I don't see how the A320 family could replace the 757. The A321 can't be compared to a 757 because it has less range and doesn't have engine as powerful as those of the 757, it isn't a direct competitor or replacement for the 757. Yes additional A319's and A320's could replace the remaining 737-300's and 500's but not 757's. And the A318 is the perfect 737-500 replacement. Isn't the A318 offered with PW engines? United has a long time relationship with Pratt & Whitney. The 787 will replace the 767 and 757 fleet. Your friend problaby meant to say that additional A32X and the 787 will replace the 737 fleet and 757/767 fleet respectively.
About the 747ADV, United will probably order it to replace the remaining 20 or so 747-400's on transpacific routes. United will introduce it on transpacific routes where ETOPS restrictions don't come into play, long haul routes such as LAX-SYD, LAX-NRT, SFO-NRT and SFO-HKG. That is the only reason I see why United would choose the 747ADV over the 777LR. Besides that, United seems to be happy with the 777 aircraft.
So the future mainline fleet would look like this in the long run:
A319/320(and maybe A321 and/or A318's)
B747ADV
B777
B787

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hoya
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:05 am

I believe UA still has a number of A320/319s still on order with Airbus. I don't know till when those deliveries have been deferred, but I remember reading somewhere some time ago that these deliveries are supposed to restart sometime in 2006. While UA may be changed that date, I wouldn't be surprised to see UA start accepting new A320-series aircraft not too soon after it exits bankruptcy.

As regards to the 747Adv, maybe that's why Boeing is taking so long on announcing a passenger launch customer. When UA cancelled its last 777 order with Boeing, I believe one of the terms of the deal was that UA had a credit($) with Boeing to use towards future orders. I wouldn't be surprised to see Boeing orders after bankruptcy due to that.

IF UA orders the 787, I'm wondering what engines they would choose since PWs aren't offered. But it would be in their interest to order soon to reserve delivery slots, as they are filling up very quickly.
Hoya Saxa!!
 
Kahala777
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:10 am

Quoting Aa777flyer (Thread starter):
UA will also order more A320 family to replace 757/737

The 757 has become a disappearing aircraft in the United Airlines fleet. Witihin a few years, expect the 757 to be dedicated only to Hawaii, JFK, and IAD Trans-Cons.

Quoting American 767 (Reply 4):
Yes additional A319's and A320's could replace the remaining 737-300's and 500's but not 757's

The 757's are not needed in United Airlines new plan. The 757 will have a muted role and will come into play only for JFK, IAD Trans-Cons. And some Hawaiian routes.

Quoting American 767 (Reply 4):
About the 747ADV, United will probably order it to replace the remaining 20 or so 747-400's on transpacific routes

They will not be ordering the aircraft on a 1 for 1 basis. The 747ADV, will come into play for new routes that United Airlines is planning to service in the future. Examples include: IAD-HKG, ORD-SYD, SFO-DEL.

Quoting American 767 (Reply 4):
United seems to be happy with the 777 aircraft

They are very happy with the 777, they are not happy with the capacity. For that reason alone, you will not see UA operating the 777 on high demand routes such as ORD-HKG, SFO-HKG, and LAX-SYD.

KAHALA777
 
mauriceb
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:16 am

He told me that once UA exits bankruptcy they will place a large order for new Airbus/Boeing aircraft


so we can expect an order in about 10 years?
 
Trolley Dolley
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:44 am

While I'll only believe this when it happens, the fleet decision makes sense.

Firstly, if the 757 and 767 are going, the A321 would be a good replacement for some of the 757 routes. It offers commonality with the bulk of the short haul fleet, a huge bonus in the planning and operations. The range is more than adequate for covering North America from all it's hubs. (Except East Coast- Hawaii, but the 757 can't fly that either)

True, as American 767 points out, the 757 has more range and powerful engines, but the 757 is a larger aircraft, about 20 tons heavier. I don't know if this makes it a "better" plane or merely different.

The 787 would be a great adition for the 767 and heavier 757 routes and makes perfect sense.

The strategy would make sense in simplfy the fleet to the A320 family, the 787, 777 and 747Adv. 4 types to cover all the possible mission profiles in the UA ops.
 
A350
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:48 am

I don't see why ordering new planes should be a top priority of UA after exiting chapter 11. They have a very modern fleet with A32x and T7s as workhorses, also the rest isn't in an urgent need for replacement. Wasn't it one reason for their bankruptcy that they have ordered to many new a/c? I think they can live long years without receiving new metal.

A350
 
galapagapop
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:51 am

So UA has yet to make a Quarterly profit in 4 years, added more than 3 Billion in debt and now thinks they can plave a large order for brand spankin new aircraft? I think UA should work on making what they have profitable. (CO has their 733 and 735 fleets profitable). Then once they get a couple profitable quarters behind them then order.
 
Reggaebird
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:51 am

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 10):
I think UA should work on making what they have profitable. (CO has their 733 and 735 fleets profitable). Then once they get a couple profitable quarters behind them then order.

As reported in the link below, United has been reporting "operating profits" for some time now. However, those operating profits have been obscured by the reorganizational expenses that the company is dealing with.

http://www.wittetravel.com/articles/breaking_travel_news/000324.html
 
ikramerica
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:00 am

Quoting Aa777flyer (Thread starter):
I was talking with a friend of mine who is a member of senior management for United at IAD. He told me that once UA exits bankruptcy they will place a large order for new Airbus/Boeing aircraft. He said that UA will likely be the launch customer for the 747-Advanced. UA will also order more A320 family to replace 757/737 aircraft as well as 787 to replace the 767 fleet.

This is exactly what they should do. The A320 has been good for them and should be used to replace all the 737s and some aging 757s. The 757s will remain only on specialized routes that need them.

The 787 will replace the 767 AND 757 for the routes that the A320 won't cut it.

And as a 744 airline who needs planes of that size but not of the size of the A380, the 747Adv is a no-brainer. I fully expect them to be the North American launch customer for the aircraft. UA will not order any more 777s. They have enough as it is.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
commavia
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:04 am

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 6):
The 757 has become a disappearing aircraft in the United Airlines fleet. Witihin a few years, expect the 757 to be dedicated only to Hawaii, JFK, and IAD Trans-Cons.

How has the 757 been a "disappointment" to United? They fly those planes very intensively, all over, all across their network, through every one of their hubs.

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 6):
The 757's are not needed in United Airlines new plan. The 757 will have a muted role and will come into play only for JFK, IAD Trans-Cons. And some Hawaiian routes.

What new plan are you talking about that doesn't involve 757s? Without them, how does United plan on flying to Hawaii, flying the p.s. transcons, flying from Denver to high-capacity east coast markets, etc.?
 
FA4UA
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:26 am

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 6):
The 757 has become a disappearing aircraft in the United Airlines fleet. Witihin a few years, expect the 757 to be dedicated only to Hawaii, JFK, and IAD Trans-Cons.

How do you think this airplane is "Disappearing"?

Pre-ch11 98 airframes

today 98 airframes and higher utilization by about 2 hrs a day!

FA4UA
The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
 
7e72004
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:28 am

WOuldn't it be easier and more economical to stay with one "brand" of aircraft...either Boeing or Airbus?
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:30 am

So the launch for the 747ADV will be UA, NZ for 8 or 10 plus one or more others. For those of you who question NZ do a search and you will see that an insider essentially confirmed that it was on the docket if launched.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:38 am

>> WOuldn't it be easier and more economical to stay with one "brand" of aircraft...either Boeing or Airbus?

No, there has never been a solid case for an all-Boeing or all-Airbus fleet.

For one thing, UA has such a huge fleet of Boeing widebodies that it would take billions to convert to Airbus widebodies. UA also has so many A320 and A319 that they could never just drop them for the 737NG. The most sensible thing to do is just bid each Airbus or Boeing aircraft in each category, and select the one best suited for that job.

>> So the launch for the 747ADV will be UA, NZ for 8 or 10 plus one or more others.

UA isn't going to launch the 747-Adv. It isn't even within the realm of consideration.

WN would launch the A350 first.  Wink
 
wdleiser
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:58 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 17):

While I pretty much agree with you, I think it is wrong to say it is out of the question. Last time I check UAL makes money on Longhauls, so a long haul order would seem like a good business plan to make more money in my opinion.
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:11 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 17):
UA isn't going to launch the 747-Adv. It isn't even within the realm of consideration.

Would appreciate your reasons why they would not unless their -400's are still quite young, I haven't checked but I thought they have some of the older ones.
 
gigneil
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:13 am

They were still taking 747-400s in 1999 and 2000.

N
 
hoya
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 10:07 am

At least 12 UA 744s were delivered in or before 1992. They're oldest was delivered in June of 1989. This means that when the 747Adv first takes to the skies, UA's oldest 744 will be almost 20 years old. Sounds to me like a good time to start replacing them. UA must be thinking about replacing them with something in the next few years if they're smart.
Hoya Saxa!!
 
Kahala777
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 11:19 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 13):
How has the 757 been a "disappointment" to United?

United Airlines has not been disappointed with the 757. That was never stated, by myself or any other person on this forum. The correct statement, I must remind you, was that the 757 is disappearing from the United Airlines fleet with the advent of more and more A320's.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 13):
They fly those planes very intensively, all over, all across their network, through every one of their hubs.

Yes, indeed they do fly those planes intensively. You also must admit that the utilization rate is up for some of the United Airlines 757 program, but overall more planes are sitting idle. A good example would be the Premium Service 757-200's that operate JFK-SFO, JFK-LAX. Those planes do not share the same utilization times as other 757's operating routes such as DEN-LAX, LAX-IAD, IAD-SFO, SFO-HNL, and so forth. Certain routes that were at one time flown by a 757 such as LAS-ORD, PHX-ORD, DEN-RNO, DEN-COS, TPA-ORD, MIA-SFO, MCO-LAX, BOS-SFO, are discontinued or are no longer being operated with such large equipment.

Quoting FA4UA (Reply 14):
How do you think this airplane is "Disappearing"?

Please refer to the above stated facts.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 13):
Denver to high-capacity east coast markets

High-Capacity East Coast Markets? Are you talking about High-Yield such as DCA, LGA, and BOS? Are you talking about High-Density such as MCO, IAD, and TPA. The only "high capacity" market from Denver to the East Coast is Washington IAD, and that is with a 744, 772, or 763. Please specify.

KAHALA777
 
galapagapop
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:25 pm

Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 11):

As reported in the link below, United has been reporting "operating profits" for some time now. However, those operating profits have been obscured by the reorganizational expenses that the company is dealing with.

Operational profits don't do anything when you still are constantly losing money overall.
 
gigneil
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:57 pm

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 22):
The correct statement, I must remind you, was that the 757 is disappearing from the United Airlines fleet with the advent of more and more A320's.

They have the same number now they always have.

N
 
N79969
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:17 pm

Who is going to finance all of these new airplanes? Bankruptcy is bizarre.
 
united
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:23 pm

I really think replacing the 757s would be stupid at this point. They are not old; only 15 years at the oldest and still have 5 to 10 years ahead of them. A great thing to do with the 757s and 763s would be to upgrade the systems (especially on the 57s) so they can fly transatlantic and follow in CO's footsteps and add more IAD-(GLA, LYS, HAM, ARN, FBU, DUB/SNN) as well as utilizing the 763s which are still efficient to use for European routes that are of size but not LHR/FRA/CDG such as MUC, DUS, AMS, MAN, BRU, MXP, FCO, PRG, WAW). It would expand the nonstops offered across the pond by star alliance as well as increased revenue through nonstops with little competition (mainly CO).

The 777s do have low capacity (12+49+197), but that should not be a problem. It is better to have to little capacity than too much. UA's magic with the 777 is that the B model (which most are, I believe) can comfortably fly most America-Asia/Europe flights adding new city pairs. UA can then do similar things like CO at EWR but at SFO/ORD with Asia (ie. SFO-NGO, KIX, ORD-PEK, PVG, KIX, HNL). The same is true when using 763s instead of 777s as UA did to ORD-CDG. This keeps yields at a premium rather than chasing after low fares. 747s can be used where needed (NRT, HKG, FRA, LHR, SYD, etc...) and still make money. As long as UA plays their aces, then they can really succeed in the near future!

bottom line: the 757s, 763s still have quite a bit of efficient life left in them and should be utilized according to their strengths. Replacing 757s with A320s on domestic flights like DEN-EWR or BOS-ORD is alright because you could either A. improve frequency by using more smaller planes, or B. lower capacity and increase yield whch is also very important, as stated above.

chris
The opinions expressed here are mine and not necessarily those of Delta Air Lines.
 
Airlinerfreak
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:26 pm

This has to be the stupidest thing they could do, as it could set them right back in bankruptcy. They should make sure they have some insurance....extra cash ontop of what they will be using to purchase the aircraft....not smart in my opinion.
 
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zeke
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:01 pm

Quoting UniTED (Reply 26):
UA's magic with the 777 is that the B model (which most are, I believe) can comfortably fly most America-Asia/Europe flights adding new city pairs. UA can then do similar things like CO at EWR but at SFO/ORD with Asia (ie. SFO-NGO, KIX, ORD-PEK, PVG, KIX, HNL). The same is true when using 763s instead of 777s as UA did to ORD-CDG.

If they are so magic, why have they leased some of their 777's out to Air India and Varig ?
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
iwok
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:15 pm

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 7):
so we can expect an order in about 10 years?

Ha.. Good one.  Wink Looks like UA's strategy of staying in Chapter 11 throughout the downturn will eventually pay dividends in the form of a new fleet and reduced labor costs; passing the buck onto the taxpayers is a time honored strategy to make up for poor business plans.  Smile

iwok
 
Co757
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:30 pm

Quoting Aa777flyer (Thread starter):
I was talking with a friend of mine who is a member of senior management for United

And he's Your Friend? Senior Management is What Screwed them Up in the 1st Place.

Quoting Aa777flyer (Thread starter):
He told me that once UA exits bankruptcy they will place a large order for new Airbus/Boeing aircraft. He said that UA will likely be the launch customer for the 747-Advanced. UA will also order more A320 family to replace 757/737 aircraft as well as 787 to replace the 767 fleet.

And you believe what management tells you. Your a Bright one. When and IF they emerge, they are stupid to Make a large order for new Planes, United will Be at the Courthouse in 12 months, Mark my words.
 
Co757
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:32 pm

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 7):
He told me that once UA exits bankruptcy they will place a large order for new Airbus/Boeing aircraft


so we can expect an order in about 10 years?

You nailed that one on the Head  Cool
 
hoya
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:14 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 28):
why have they leased some of their 777's out to Air India and Varig ?

UA did not lease out those 777s. They were returned to the lessors during Ch. 11 due to high least rates, and the lessors have subsequently leased them out to other airlines. UA wanted to keep them, but couldn't renegotiate lower lease rates and let them go.

Quoting Co757 (Reply 30):
When and IF they emerge, they are stupid to Make a large order for new Planes, United will Be at the Courthouse in 12 months, Mark my words.

UA will emerge in a few months. They already have exit financing. They actually had banks competing to provide them loans (possible sign of confidence in their plan?). Fact is UA drastically reduced its costs, and if they feel that they are in a position to order new aircraft, then they might as well. Sometimes ordering new aircraft may actually save money, as they are more efficient, and lease rates might be comparable, if not better, than on current aircraft. UA will need new aircraft in the next few years. I doubt there will be any narrow body orders as they are expecting A320/319 deliveries from a previous order, but I wouldn't be surprised if any widebodies are ordered, especially as they expand internationally and their aircraft don't get any younger.
Hoya Saxa!!
 
baw716
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:10 pm

In my plan of reorganization for United, www.groups.msn.com/UnitedTheVision,
I stated one of the major tasks that United has to undertake is to reduce of aircraft types in their fleet. It would appear they are doing that. If they are replacing the 737s and 757s with the A320, taking the 787 to replace the 767 and staying with the 772ER and get the 747ADV, then they would have four aircraft types. I firmly believe that going in the direction of the 747ADV is the wrong choice for UAL, they need to go smaller, go with the 777LR. If they need capacity, then get the -300ER.

Some of you have said that getting rid of the 757 is a bad idea. Actually, is is not a bad idea: Not for United. Remember, the object of the exercise is PROFITABILITY. The A320 is more efficient per seat mile across a much wider range of missions than the 757. The 757 is only efficient on long missions (over 3-4 hours). The A320 can be efficient down to about an hour before its costs start going up significantly. In addition, it has the range to go transcon. OK, you carry fewer passengers, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. As long as those carriers are being carried at a fare which can reasonable and at a unit cost which the carrier can operate at PROFITABLY, then the aircraft choice becomes more clear. Bigger does not mean more profitable on long range routes.

I took a fair amount of criticism over eliminating the 747 in favor of the 777LR. This decision is based on two factors: 1) Filling the aircraft to capacity and 2) Flexibility. The first point is obvious. However, with a 777LR, you would have the possibility to operate a second flight to that destination at a different time, which would have more appeal to the business customer base. As the 777LR would be much more comfortable from a passenger perspective than the 747 would ever be, and since the aircraft has the capacity to carry so much freight, in those markets in which two aircraft could be justified to make a market more profitable, having more aircraft dedicated might make sense.

With a partner like the 787, that carries 200 passengers roughly 8000mi, you could expand into new routes with smaller aircraft, which would free up the larger 777s for the more heavily used and more profitable trunk routes. The 747 in this scenario is an aircraft that would be rendered redundant.
One COULD make an argument that there is a large enough market to justify a 747, but not two 777s; however, the question to be analyzed is are the operating costs of the 747 low enough to justify keeping them, or can two aircraft types, say a combination of a 787 and a 777 be used in such a case to make up the difference?

In United's case, I concluded that it could remain much more flexible if it remained with a smaller sized aircraft fleet, even if that meant in the short run giving up some market share. Again, it requires moving away from the market share model and commodity pricing that will make United successful.

At least, on the face of it, at least they are making some good decisions. At least an all A320 domestic fleet is a good start.

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
Ivo
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:22 pm

Airbus orders:

A319: Ordered: 78; del: 55; in operation: 55; still to be deliverd: 23.

A320: Ordered: 117; del: 98; in operation (incl Ted): 97; to be del: 19.

source: Airbus delivery sheet at there website.

Ivo
 
zvezda
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:50 pm

Quoting Hoya (Reply 32):
I doubt there will be any narrow body orders as they are expecting A320/319 deliveries from a previous order

My understanding is that UA does not currently have delivery slots for the 42 A319/A320 on deferred order. UA might place an additional order as part of a deal to get good delivery slots for the deferred aircraft. Replacing all the B737s is almost certainly a higher priority than replacing any B767s.
 
UA772IAD
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:35 pm

Quoting American 767 (Reply 4):
I don't see how the A320 family could replace the 757. The A321 can't be compared to a 757 because it has less range and doesn't have engine as powerful as those of the 757, it isn't a direct competitor or replacement for the 757.

That isn't an applicable argument with United Airlines. The A320 has become the workhorse for UA domestic. It can fly across the US fine, and since it carries less PAX, they can additional flights, thus making it more convienent for the customer, to have a choice. To bad it sucks flying A320 from IAD-SFO. The only UA routes the 320 cannot fly is the Hawaii flights, and more than likely, UA will find another alternative (777, 787, 767).

Quoting Trolley Dolley (Reply 8):
Except East Coast- Hawaii, but the 757 can't fly that either)

United does not fly from the East Coast to Hawaii. There are flights from DEN and ORD, served by 767s and 777s (based on the season, I believe).

Quoting A350 (Reply 9):
also the rest isn't in an urgent need for replacement

Most of the 757s were built between 1989-1993. Since they were for a while the UA workhorse, they show signs of heavy usage. Like UAs 747s and 737s, these planes are heavily used, are plagued with minor mechanical problems (the 744 in particular) and are becoming expensive to maintain, especially as their technology becomes obsolete (even though their technically not that old).

Quoting UniTED (Reply 26):
A great thing to do with the 757s and 763s would be to upgrade the systems (especially on the 57s) so they can fly transatlantic and follow in CO's footsteps and add more IAD-(GLA, LYS, HAM, ARN, FBU, DUB/SNN)

I think that's a natural phenomenon. Very few airlines, especially stateside have pulled this method off sucessfully. Even fewer can do it with a 757 (is CO the only one?) Pre 9/11 UA was dropping destinations that weren't profitable (MXP, DUS, DEL, etc.) These were routes that even the foreign international airlines were having trouble with. UA would have to operate these trips out of IAD (a very good International hub- UA's 3rd busiest), but Washington doesn't have the sheer diverse population and tourist draw that NYC has. It wouldn't work, and it would defeat the purpose of Star Alliance.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 12):
And as a 744 airline who needs planes of that size but not of the size of the A380, the 747Adv is a no-brainer. I fully expect them to be the North American launch customer for the aircraft. UA will not order any more 777s. They have enough as it is.

I agree and disagree. I don't think their done with the 777, but it might be a while before they purchase more.

The bottom line is, that phazing out these aircrafts is a good idea. All three of thes aircrafts (37, 47, 57) are former workhorses. That's why they appear to be so worn out. By the time the orders are filled, many of these older planes will be on their last legs. The high maintenence costs will hurt UA, and its safer to just start fresh.
 
flightopsguy
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 10:19 pm

Many of UA's 757's are already etops. They fly 'em to HNL.

Experienced maintenance controllers will tell you that the airbus family has a lower dispatch reliability than similar narrowbody Boeing products when you run them into the ground with high utilization.

UA's future fleet will depend largely on lease rates available at the time.
I think you will see more and more E jets domestically except to pacing business destinations.

A320's are fine transcon when a carrier has purchased the right combo of takeoff and landing weights and fuel capacity.
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jacobin777
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Sun Oct 09, 2005 11:00 pm

Quoting Baw716 (Reply 33):
One COULD make an argument that there is a large enough market to justify a 747, but not two 777s; however, the question to be analyzed is are the operating costs of the 747 low enough to justify keeping them, or can two aircraft types, say a combination of a 787 and a 777 be used in such a case to make up the difference?

Baw716, I think that UA have enough of a fleet and enough routes (with more to come) to warrant keeping the 747s. Their 747 route is quite extensive, and the one place they seem to be expanding nicely is internationaly, and I would think that the new international routes would warrant the 777/787, but some other routes (especially the mature ones) might warrant the 747 or the 747ADV.
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FriendlySkies
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:09 am

While I highly doubt any of this is true, I can see long term that happenening...however, I don't see the 757s going anywhere. As already posted, they still have the same number they started with going into Chap 11, and they fly the hell out of 'em. The only thing that's going to replace the 757 at UA is a new 757 at this point.
 
ikramerica
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:39 am

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 36):
I agree and disagree. I don't think their done with the 777, but it might be a while before they purchase more.

That's what i meant.

If we are talking priorities, the A320 787 and 747Adv are higher priorities than adding more 777s. The 787 will take over for the 767, some 757 routes like hawaii (from anywhere in the US...), and certain 777 routes that didn't have high loads. That's a default way of "adding" 777s, since more would become available to routes they are suited for. And then the 747Adv replaces the 744 and adds some capacity (for pax and/or cargo) while it's reducing costs. Not a bad trade there!

The problem with the 772LR for UA is they don't need them too much, and they are as expensive as a 744 and probably as much as a 747Adv , or close to it. They can get 3 787s and an A320 for the price of 2 772LRs...
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zeke
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:44 am

Quoting Hoya (Reply 32):
UA did not lease out those 777s. They were returned to the lessors during Ch. 11 due to high least rates, and the lessors have subsequently leased them out to other airlines. UA wanted to keep them, but couldn't renegotiate lower lease rates and let them go.

Saw something recently that suggested that UA still has its name as the principle leassor. Possibly sub leasing them ? Any idea who the lease company is ?

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 40):
And then the 747Adv replaces the 744 and adds some capacity (for pax and/or cargo) while it's reducing costs. Not a bad trade there!

Thought the 744Adv was going to have the GEnx, be a while before a 744Adv would be around.
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Boeing Nut
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:20 am

I'd figure because of capacity reasons, that the 773ER would be a better choice for UA than the 747ADV.  twocents 
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
ebj1248650
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:50 am

Quoting American 767 (Reply 4):
I don't see how the A320 family could replace the 757. The A321 can't be compared to a 757 because it has less range and doesn't have engine as powerful as those of the 757, it isn't a direct competitor or replacement for the 757.

It may be that the 757 has more passenger capacity than United needs. I suspect that if United really wanted a 757 replacement they would look at the 737-900. Just a guess on my part.
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gigneil
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:04 am

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 43):
I suspect that if United really wanted a 757 replacement they would look at the 737-900.

Perhaps you can explain why they'd do that, when their standard narrowbody is now the A320?

N
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:33 am

To add onto reply 42....
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HunUtazo
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:07 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 44):
Perhaps you can explain why they'd do that, when their standard narrowbody is now the A320?


b doesn't like them?
c doesn't have them?
p implementation?
d all of above?

[Edited 2005-10-10 01:11:54]
dude
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:17 am

Quoting HunUtazo (Reply 46):
b doesn't like them?
c doesn't have them?
p implementation?
d all of above?

What?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:21 am

>>
b doesn't like them?
c doesn't have them?
p implementation?
d all of above?



I second: huh?
 
stirling
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RE: UA Will Order Airbus/Boeing

Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:51 am

Quoting Baw716 (Reply 33):
Some of you have said that getting rid of the 757 is a bad idea



Quoting Baw716 (Reply 33):
The 757 is only efficient on long missions (over 3-4 hours).

The major differences between the 321 and 757 can be summed up in one generalized statement.

"The 757 flys 15 more pax, 1000nm farther, 10knots slower, with 20,000 tons to spare."

I am wondering if UA should not steal a page from the CO playbook here...seems to be working...
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