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PanAm_DC10
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Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:10 pm

According to a local media source TAP's intended order for 11 A330s is only an interim measure until they start taking delivery of 14 A350s in 2012 or 2013.

By Jeffrey T. Lewis
Oct. 11 (Bloomberg) -- TAP-Transportes Aereos Portugueses SA plans to finance the purchase of as many as 14 Airbus A350 planes by increasing its debt, Jornal de Negocios reported, without saying where it got the information.
The Lisbon-based airline's debt will rise to as much as 900 million euros ($1.1 billion) in 2012 or 2013 during the purchase program, the newspaper said.
Airbus will start to deliver A330 planes, which are already available, to TAP from 2006 through 2011, then will replace those planes with the A350 as they become available, according to Jornal.

(Jornal de Negocios 10-11 p.7)


That's an interesting twist to this thread which I ran a few weeks ago. Perhaps TAP are the 10 Undisclosed A350 orders that Airbus have. Wings & CV990 any more you can add from the local scene?

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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WINGS
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:41 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
According to a local media source TAP's intended order for 11 A330s is only an interim measure until they start taking delivery of 14 A350s in 2012 or 2013.

Hi PanAm, well Taps CEO Mr Fernando Pinto had made it clear from previous interviews that if Tap was to chose Airbus for their long haul fleet renewal plan they would receive the A330 as a interim measure until the A350 start to arrive.

The 14x A350 would seem a logical number for Taps current network and future expansion.

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):

That's an interesting twist to this thread which I ran a few weeks ago. Perhaps TAP are the 10 Undisclosed A350 orders that Airbus have. Wings & CV990 any more you can add from the local scene?

It very well could be an order for Tap Portugal. My major doubt being an order for 10X A330 and not 11x A330. It could very well be another carrier. I would be very pleased if the 10x Undisclosed order came from Aer Lingus, followed by an order from Tap. This would mean another major boost to the A350 program.

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Wings
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CV990
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:24 pm

Hi!

That's the confirmation of TAP CEO first said. TAP would buy has an interin measure the A330 and then it would evolute to the A350 or the 787! The Airbus was the winner so we'll have the A350. Also it he said that TAP would buy 14 airplanes too!
Good information PanAm_DC10!!!
regards
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boeingbus
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:37 pm

Ahhh... very refreshing to read. It brightened my morning here in an otherwise gray day in Boston.

Kudos for TP. Amazing capacity increase...
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kappel
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:51 pm

When will those A330 be arriving again? Are they leased? So they will only be flying the a330, for what, 5 years?
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anxebla
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:27 pm

What A-350 type? It will be A350-800 or A350-900??
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HEGAN
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:10 am

I would expect the A350-800, but maybe a combination of both of them will be the most probable.

It seems very logical: they lease now A330 for 5 years and in 2012 they start receiving their brand new A350s.

Agur,
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A360
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:15 am

^Some of them must be 350-900 to replace the 340-300's which have similar capacity.
 
CV990
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:32 am

Hi!

In the news regarding TAP new long-haul fleet I got the information that TAP would purchase the airplanes, it would not be a leasing agreement, so in my view TAP is going to get these 11 A330 leased from ILFC ( please don't forget that the TAP A310-300 were leased from ILFC.... and I think 3 years ago ILFC did an offer for TAP to replace their A310 for A330's... ) and at the same time they get slots for the A350 when they start to built them. A few weeks ago we tracked 5 possible A330-200's that TAP could get in a short notice but I don't know were are the other 6! If TAP get's the first in 2006 and the last in 2011, we must say that in 2012 the first A330's that arrive soon in 2006 will leave the fleet then. At this point what I know is that portuguese governemnt asked FULL DETAILS about this big file, I'm not really worried about it because I know that the government will accept it, so I think maximum the end of this we'll get all possible details about this operation.... but eventually we can have news earlier than that!
Regards
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anxebla
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:56 am

Quoting A360 (Reply 7):
must be 350-900 to replace the 340-300's which have similar capacity.

With a typical two-class configuration, the A359s will have 316 seats. What is the TAP A343 configuration? I assume less than 295 seats. IB has 249-260 seats for the A340-300
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boeingbus
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:31 am

I'll say it again - THIS is major expansion for TP... going from A310/343 to the A358/9. And many more planes!!!! Smart move if TP can market itself right outside of Portugal.

I'm hoping that the government seizes this opportunity and starts to think about the poor condition of LIS. A new airport needs reevaluated or expand Portela. LIS would be an excellent gateway for Europeans to go to Brazil and Africa... and the America's to Africa and Europe. But the infrastructure needs to be in place.
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A388
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:04 am

Interesting news and the way our insiders in Portugal say it, this order is pretty much a done deal? Going for the A350 would indeed be a logical step in TAP's case and leasing A330s would also be a nice way of getting used to the aircraft as the A350 will have commonality with the A330 (and the other Airbus as well). It just sounds a bit expensive to lease so many A330s for such a short period, will those A330s be secondhand aircraft from ILFC?

CV990, Where will TAP get those possible 5 A330s? I discussed the availability of the A330 on the secondhand market just a few days ago and said it is impossible to get secondhand A330s as these aircraft are still relatively young with a high demand for them. Especially in the Middle East airlines like EK, QR and Etihad would be glad to get there hands on more A330s before taking delivery of their own aircraft, right? Are those three A330-200s in CGN still available? Those are the only available A330s I can think of. Which other airlines operate A330s of which the lease terms expire soon? Turkish Airlines was also rumoured to be leasing secondhand A330s but it appears they will start receiving their new A330s this month right? Are there also ex-Sabena A330s idle at this moment?

Back to the topic, the 14 A350s TAP will probably order indeed seems like a big expansion in TAP's case but I agree that it is the right number for TAP's fleet and route network, taking expansion into account that is. Which ultra long range routes can TAP operate with the A350? It would be a pity not to use the maximum range of the A350. Is TAP looking at Asian expansion? Maybe BKK or HKG? I would suspect the Asian market isn't that big to support direct flights yearround? Maybe expansion to the U.S. like LAX/SFO?

In any way, like I've said in the past I enjoyed flying TAP they are a very good airline in my opinion. Good luck to TAP, one of the best airlines I've flown with!!  cheerful 

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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:42 pm

Hi!

When we did a brain storming about were TAP would get at least 5 A330-200's we considered the 3 that are stored at CGN and also 2 more that are at this moment at LH but will leave during 2006! Now, I really don't have any idea were the other 6 will come and I can also consider that TAP might get ALL new machines!
Regarding the 14 new A350's, of course TAP is thinking about expanding their routes but the market TAP will chase I think will be South America, specially Brazil. Now that Varig is getting weaker and weaker ( there are rumours that Varig will drop LIS from November on!!!! ) TAP can get a much stronger position in the market, even if TAM in considering LIS in the future! Another emerging market will be Africa, of course, mainly ex: portuguese colonies and I think some of the routes could be upgraded like Cape Verde Islands were TAP operates with A321 and they can use the A350!
The future TAP strategy will also be shapped by Alliance, I don't think TAP will come back to Asia after such a frustrated attempt in late 90's when TAP flew to Macao via BRU and BKK, that was a very much political move! West Coast of USA too, it's too crowed with lots of flights from Europe and portuguese people can really make good connections via FRA, ZRH, LHR and Paris. TAP infact had a flight to LAX during 1989 but that was - like we say - donne to the give the chance of TAP employees to go to Disneyland!!! They used the L1011-500 and it was dropped just a few months after!
regards
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JoFMO
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:53 pm

Quoting CV990 (Reply 12):
can really make good connections via FRA, ZRH, LHR and Paris

I would say they are a little bit off the way from Portugal to North America.

I think TAP should begin a daily flight to any star alliance hub like IAD, PHL, YYZ or ORD.
EWR offers too less connection opportunities to feed TAP in LIS effectively.
 
CV990
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:06 pm

Hi JoFMO!

Well you might be right, but actually that's what's happens mostly. I for example the 5 times I flew to North America, 3 times I was via LHR, 1 time via ZRH and 1 time via MAD! Next year I'll be flying to USA and guess what..... via LHR again!!! The issue here is the fact that from all those big european airports you have a bunch of direct flights to almost all big US/Canada airports. From LIS you can make only EWR and normally from that point in USA you have to find a flight to any US/Canada city you go!
I sincerely don't think TAP will add any other US/Canada big city in the future.... but if TAP would think about it, the only ones I would come up would be BOS or YYZ, but TAP already operated those places and it was losing money so!
Regards
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:47 pm

Quoting CV990 (Reply 14):
but if TAP would think about it, the only ones I would come up would be BOS or YYZ, but TAP already operated those places and it was losing money so!

I believe TP will do either of the 2 things:

1) Add another US destination - either ORD or IAD, since United has a huge presence at those hubs.

2) Move operations from EWR to IAD.

I believe EWR is great airport as it serves the local Portuguese community in the Northeast but it has no strong Star Alliance partners. So I'm leaning to the idea that TP will serve both EWR (local) and ORD(connecting).

I believe United is intrigued with TP for its African and European destinations. It's a win-win situation but unfortunate EWR does not help UA much, if at all.

Edit... meant EWR and EWK... oops... Thanks A340...

[Edited 2005-10-12 17:01:11]
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:51 pm

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 15):
EWK

Perhaps you mean EWR ?
EWK is a smal airport in Kansas.
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:52 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 11):
Where will TAP get those possible 5 A330s?

Check this link. It's very detailed.....
RE: Report: TAP Chooses Airbus For Renewal (by PhotoLPPT Sep 16 2005 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting CV990 (Reply 12):
TAP infact had a flight to LAX during 1989

Wasn't it to San Francisco...?

Regarding the routes to US, I'd say TAP should fly to an airport with better connections rather than EWR. I think JFK was dropped because it was cheaper and EWR is an important hub for Continental. It's true that from France, UK, Germany etc. there's a lot of options to the US, but what about Spain? How many flights are there from Madrid and Barcelona and to which cities.
The key issue is to have attractive fares to 2 or 3 big US airports. You can attract people from north of Spain (Galiza) or even Barcelona to flights to US starting from Lis, again if the airfares are competitive.

It's just a thought, but I think TAP has to have in mind the spanish market. The other day I was flying to LHR and there were some spanish passengers coming from Madrid via Lis to LHR... Not sure if it was due to the price or availability.
 
JoFMO
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:09 am

Quoting TAP1972 (Reply 17):
You can attract people from north of Spain (Galiza) or even Barcelona to flights to US starting from Lis, again if the airfares are competitive

But so far TAP only serves BCN and MAD from LIS.
 
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:18 am

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 18):
But so far TAP only serves BCN and MAD from LIS.

There are many people from Galiza that uses Oporto airport instead of La Coruña and its' not far to get to Oporto because you can go on a highway from here to La Coruña.

Oporto airport has been promoted in Galiza as an option and can serve cities like Vigo, Pontevedra, Santiago Compostela and even Coruña.
 
CV990
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:38 am

Hi TAP1972!

Noop, it was LAX! That's why in Portugal a lot of enthusiasts said that TAP was offering a direct flight to TAP employees to visit Disneyland because the ocupation was so poor!!!
regards
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:09 am

So, are we sure then that the 10 undisclosed A350s are for TAP?

I'm hoping so, because there were rumours that they might be for Aer Lingus. I think it's a fine aircraft and I'm sure that it'll serve TP very well.

What's the position in relation to the A340s; are two of the 340s still leaving, to join the Armee de l'air?
 
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:11 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 21):
What's the position in relation to the A340s; are two of the 340s still leaving, to join the Armee de l'air?

They were never planned to leave. The 4 A340 are to stay. TAP will perform the maintenance of 2 A340's of French Air Force.
 
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:15 am

Quoting TAP1972 (Reply 22):
Quoting Kaitak (Reply 21):
What's the position in relation to the A340s; are two of the 340s still leaving, to join the Armee de l'air?

They were never planned to leave. The 4 A340 are to stay. TAP will perform the maintenance of 2 A340's of French Air Force.

The initial news reports were wrong. TAP will indeed do the maintenance on the the two ex-OS A340 that are sold to the French Air Force.
 
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:33 pm

Hi Wings & CV990 thanks very much for the update. I would have responded sooner though I've been travelling. Interesting times indeed for TAP. It will be good to finally see the official announcement which I expect soon. I'm curious as to how it'll all be structured as other carriers considering the A350 may structure their orders in a similar manner.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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persotvik
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:00 pm

According to Airliner World TAP will order new airplanes ( A350 or B787 ) to replace their ageing A310's and A340's.

The undisclosed order might be AY too. Their marketing manager in Norway says that their MD11's will be flying beyond 2010. They will increase the fleet to 10 MD11. An order for new longhaulaircrafts can be expected in 2007/2008.
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WINGS
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:37 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 24):
TAP. It will be good to finally see the official announcement which I expect soon

Well that would be good news. I have my fingures crossed.

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 24):
I'm curious as to how it'll all be structured as other carriers considering the A350 may structure their orders in a similar manner.

Yes indeed. We should expect to see further A330 orders until the A350 starts to arrive. The A330 is still an excellent product with some years ahead of it.

Quoting Persotvik (Reply 25):
The undisclosed order might be AY too. Their marketing manager in Norway says that their MD11's will be flying beyond 2010. They will increase the fleet to 10 MD11. An order for new longhaulaircrafts can be expected in 2007/2008.

It could possibly be. Is Finnair state owned?

Regards,
Wings
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N754PR
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:40 am

Good day for the A350. TAP does need a bigger international fleet.
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andaman
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:58 am

The state owns 58% (if remember right) of Finnair.

Plans for 10 Md-11s? They seem to have big plans for Asia. In that case their hub HEL has to grow a lot too.
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WINGS
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:07 am

Quoting Andaman (Reply 28):
The state owns 58% (if remember right) of Finnair.

Thanks for that Andaman, In that case Finland are the major share holders of Finnair. For this very reason they will require both board and government approval for the order.

It could very well be Finnair.

Regards,
Wings
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boysteve
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:31 am

In a previous thread there was a discussion about the 10 x A350 UFO order on airbuses website. TAP was a contender, as was EI. If TAP are about to order 14 of these aircraft then it increases the chance that the phantom order is for EI.
 
anxebla
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RE: Report: TAP Portugal To Sign For 14 A350s

Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:25 am

Quoting TAP1972 (Reply 17):
How many flights are there from Madrid and Barcelona and to which cities.

From MAD there are flights non-stop to MIA dailyx2 (IB & AA), JFK (IB & DL), EWR (CO), PHL (US), ORD (IB), ATL (DL) DL flights from BCN are seasonal and sometimes there are chater flights to the States from AGP
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