NAV20
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The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:32 pm

The British Government apparently wants to make straight repayable loans to Airbus from now on. The USA would probably have no objection to that, if the loans were at market interest rates:-

"The Government wants to structure any launch aid for the A350, the new plane being built by Airbus, the aerospace giant, as a straight loan and less like a subsidy.

"The move would be the first time that the Government has provided state aid in such a way. In the past, so-called "repayable launch investment" for the aerospace giant has been in the form of an interest-bearing loan that only had to be repaid if the aircraft was a sales success. The Government would also receive royalties on the sales of the aircraft.

"Earlier this year, Airbus asked the Government for £379m of support to help develop the 250-seat aircraft which will rival Boeing's 787, the US company's first new aircraft in a decade.

"A move to structure the aid as a straight loan would probably help to calm US concerns that Airbus is receiving unfair state subsidies. Last week, the US rebuffed an offer by Airbus' parent companies - EADS and BAE Systems - to delay using state support to build the A350 for more than a year. The US said it would continue with its case against Airbus subsidies at the World Trade Organisation."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/mai...t=/money/2005/10/09/ixcitytop.html
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Flying-Tiger
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:40 pm

Let the WTO rule... oh sorry, forgot - any negative outcome for the US won´t be accepted.
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scbriml
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:43 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):
The move would be the first time that the Government has provided state aid in such a way. In the past, so-called "repayable launch investment" for the aerospace giant has been in the form of an interest-bearing loan that only had to be repaid if the aircraft was a sales success.

That doesn't quite seem to be how the EU says the launch loans work:
http://europa.eu.int/rapid/pressRele...&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

Quote:
Airbus pays royalties to governments over the entire life of the aircraft programs. Interest and principal is repaid on deliveries, even before the programs break-even and irrespective of the sale price

So, which is it?
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NAV20
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:44 pm

Uncle Sam wouldn't mind loans at market rates. Looks like this is the 'compromise' to end the row.
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art
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:46 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):
The British Government apparently wants to make straight repayable loans to Airbus from now on.

Good. Make a loan that's a loan, rather than advancing funds on a non-loan basis while calling them a loan. Any chance of this ending the A v B funding fiasco?
 
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:01 pm

I'd think so, Art. In my experience the British Civil Service doesn't 'leak' things in such detail until they're pretty well settled. And Mandelson is dead keen to patch things up with the US.
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Maersk737
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:14 pm

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 1):
Let the WTO rule... oh sorry, forgot - any negative outcome for the US won´t be accepted.

Of course not.....USA is the only "Superpower" we have left...They can do whatever they want, and we can't do anything about it......

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NAV20
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:19 pm

What is wrong with straight loans, Maersk737? Seems a good solution to me?
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Maersk737
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:35 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 7):
What is wrong with straight loans, Maersk737? Seems a good solution to me?

There is nothing wrong with straight loans, I actually have some myself Big grin

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RichardPrice
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:39 pm

Quoting Art (Reply 4):
Make a loan that's a loan, rather than advancing funds on a non-loan basis while calling them a loan

So, what makes the current loans not loans? They have to be paid back, check, they have interest applied, check, theres a maximum repayment term, check. There seems to be a lot of confusion on this forum as to what Airbus actually gets, and this common one where Airbus dont have to repay the loans if not successful is something that has never had any evidence shown for it - as far as I can make out, Airbus start repaying the loans from the initial airframe delivered, and have to meet certain targets for percentage paid back. Certainly sounds like they have to pay the loans back regardless.
 
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:45 pm

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 1):
Let the WTO rule... oh sorry, forgot - any negative outcome for the US won´t be accepted.



Quoting Maersk737 (Reply 6):
Of course not.....USA is the only "Superpower" we have left...They can do whatever they want, and we can't do anything about it......

And the EU has never ever ignored a WTO ruling, please give me a BREAK
Do you forget that there are millions of people unemployed in latin america becouse the EU imposed an unfair tariff on Bananas to help their colonies??????????? Did you just suddenly forget that? The EU has continually ignored rulings that say the tarif is illegal, meanwhile in central and south america entire towns are unemployed becouse of this practice. Oh but I forgot, everything the EU does is by divine inspiration and must be followed by us ignorant brain washed Bush loving Americans.
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scbriml
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:47 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 9):
There seems to be a lot of confusion on this forum as to what Airbus actually gets, and this common one where Airbus dont have to repay the loans if not successful is something that has never had any evidence shown for it - as far as I can make out, Airbus start repaying the loans from the initial airframe delivered,

Bang on! As per post #2

That doesn't quite seem to be how the EU says the launch loans work:
http://europa.eu.int/rapid/pressRele...&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

Quote:
Airbus pays royalties to governments over the entire life of the aircraft programs. Interest and principal is repaid on deliveries, even before the programs break-even and irrespective of the sale price
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NAV20
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:52 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 9):
Certainly sounds like they have to pay the loans back regardless.

If so, RichardPrice, Airbus will agree to the British proposal and the row will be over.

If, on the other hand, they go on arguing, it lends support to the view that launch aid has advantages that ordinary loans don't have.
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Maersk737
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:53 pm

Quoting Luisca (Reply 10):
And the EU has never ever ignored a WTO ruling, please give me a BREAK
Do you forget that there are millions of people unemployed in latin america becouse the EU imposed an unfair tariff on Bananas to help their colonies??????????? Did you just suddenly forget that? The EU has continually ignored rulings that say the tarif is illegal, meanwhile in central and south america entire towns are unemployed becouse of this practice. Oh but I forgot, everything the EU does is by divine inspiration and must be followed by us ignorant brain washed Bush loving Americans.

All that, does not change the fact that USA, can do whatever they want  Wink

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luisca
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:55 pm

Quoting Maersk737 (Reply 13):
All that, does not change the fact that USA, can do whatever they want

Now thats a smart reply, for a five year old  sarcastic 
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Maersk737
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:59 pm

Quoting Luisca (Reply 14):
Now thats a smart reply, for a five year old

You are attacking me....Why? I only stated that USA is a Superpower, and therefore sit right on the top of the world.

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RichardPrice
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:01 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 12):
If, on the other hand, they go on arguing, it lends support to the view that launch aid has advantages that ordinary loans don't have.

Well, based on recent activities, Airbus, EADS and the EU have done the opposite of arguing, what with forgoing launch aid for the A350 despite it being available, and now this alternative plan, while the US have done nothing but firm up their stance with each concession on the EU side. Anyone would think that the US wants to see an all out war in the WTO over this rather than actually resolve the situation.
 
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:12 pm

RP, the article says,
"A move to structure the aid as a straight loan would probably help to calm US concerns......."

I tend to read that as 'unattributable' Civil Service code for, '"We've run the idea past the Yanks and they've agreed to drop the WTO case if we do it this way......"

I believe Mandelson met with his US opposite number last week?
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art
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:17 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 9):
So, what makes the current loans not loans?

I believe it is well known that the Airbus launch aid "loans" are only repayable in full if the project concerned is a financial success. How that "success" is defined I know not. I do know that if I approached bankers for a loan to fund a project on the basis that the loan would not be repaid in full unless the project was a financial success, they would (a) start laughing (b) when they had stopped laughing, explain to me that I did not understand the nature of loans - capital is provided at an agreed rate of interest to be repaid by an agreed date. Unconditionally.

If I was not prepared to accept such an arrangement, they might suggest I approach a venture capital outfit or raise the money on the stock exchange or find some other way of raising capital where the lender is prepared to sign a contract saying some or all of the funds provided may not be repaid.
 
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:19 pm

What's wrong with taking a stand on an issue that you think is not fair (including the latest concessions that the EU/EADS/Airbus/Mandelson have offered)?

What is Mandelson afraid of? Let the issue get resolved through the WTO and be done with it.
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:25 pm

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 19):
What's wrong with taking a stand on an issue that you think is not fair

Which is why the EU has counter-filed against Boeing's tax breaks and partner subsidies.

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 19):
Let the issue get resolved through the WTO and be done with it.

I doubt it will get that far. My belief is that Boeing has more to fear from a WTO investigation and ruling than Airbus.
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:25 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 2):
Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):
The move would be the first time that the Government has provided state aid in such a way. In the past, so-called "repayable launch investment" for the aerospace giant has been in the form of an interest-bearing loan that only had to be repaid if the aircraft was a sales success.

That doesn't quite seem to be how the EU says the launch loans work:
http://europa.eu.int/rapid/pressRele...&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

Quote:
Airbus pays royalties to governments over the entire life of the aircraft programs. Interest and principal is repaid on deliveries, even before the programs break-even and irrespective of the sale price

So, which is it?

It's both! Airbus is paying over the life of the program, and is paying a given amount every time an aircraft is delivered (not every month, like our mortgages and car loans), but if the sum of those payments (principal plus interest) does not exceed the full amount of the loan when the "life" of the program ends, Airbus doesn't have to pay the difference! Thus, if the program is not a "sales success", the taxpayers eat the unpaid part of the loan! And of course it is in Airbus's interest to not repay the loan, so they negotiate to set the projected number of deliveries as high as possible, so the payment per delivery is as low as possible, and the chances of not paying the whole loan is as high as possible. My understanding is the official target for A380 is 1000 airframes, which is a very high number, IMHO. Also, if Airbus sells more than the sales target, they keep paying the taxpayers on each delivery, so if the sales go above target the taxpayers get a bonus. This is the case for the A320 program, each delivery results in a payment to the taxpayers even though the launch aid has already been paid. But this is not the case for any of the other programs (A319, A321, A318, A330-[23]00, A340-[23]00, A340-[56]00). I think A300/A10 launch aid is structured somewhat differently than the above, but I forget the details.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 3):
Uncle Sam wouldn't mind loans at market rates. Looks like this is the 'compromise' to end the row.

Ok, I guess its my day to play "evil American". If it's "market rates", why does the UK govt have to be involved at all? Isn't the definition of "market rates" no government involvement? If there is some sort of "special" government assistance, is this available to other UK businesses, or just ones named BAe?
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:37 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 21):
If there is some sort of "special" government assistance, is this available to other UK businesses

Not arguing, Revelation, we're not far apart. But yes, there is 'machinery' for the British Government to lend out money to business to create or maintain employment. As far as I know the Airbus factories in the UK are in 'Development Areas' (euphemism for areas that haven't got enough development  Smile) and therefore they (like any other businesses in those locations) could qualify for direct government loans.
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flyAUA
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:52 am

No obviously it's not the end of Launch Aid. If the US were to make life hard for Airbus, then they will suffer as well since they are still getting more help than Airbus does. See article I found last week:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4319764.stm
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Halibut
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:16 am

Quoting Maersk737 (Reply 6):
Of course not.....USA is the only "Superpower" we have left...They can do whatever they want, and we can't do anything about it......

I am very pro-US/Bush . But would not want my government to have that attitude !

Halibut
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trex8
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:30 am

Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):
The USA would probably have no objection to that, if the loans were at market interest rates:-

AWST had an article in the last year where someone calculated that if Airbus had to pay "market " interest rates on the loans they had gotten under the 92 agreement, the cost would add up to the incredibly stupendous amount of maybe several tens of thousands $ for every Airbus plane delivered.
Its chicken feed when the cheapest plane they sell is about 50million list price! Just a basis point or two difference in interest rates for the airline would account for that price differential. Making Airbus pay "market " rates won't help Boeing an iota in and of itself!
EU govts letting Airbus off with the "no pay unless succesful" clause isn't much help to Airbus really either since the reality is they have been succesful enough in all their programs so far that all the EU govts are laughing to the bank to deposit those checks from Airbus.Will this continue on all programs in the future, perhaps not , but their track record is pretty good.

[Edited 2005-10-13 03:31:31]
 
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:37 am

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 23):
See article I found last week:

FlyAUA, point is, the British expressing their preference for straight loans is very recent. And the story came out on the date (10th. October) when the EU Trade Commissioner, Mandelson, was due to meet with his US counterpart, Portman.

"EU trade Commissioner Peter Mandelson will tomorrow seek to diffuse the escalating trade row with the US over the Airbus A350 aircraft at meetings with his American counterpart. The two will meet in Switzerland to thrash out a framework for agreement at World Trade Organisation talks in December.

"Mandelson phoned Portman on Friday to reiterate his preference for a negotiated solution, and will reinforce this in talks this week."


http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,6903,1587823,00.html

So it looks as if the EU, as of this week, is offering to convert launch aid into straight loans if that will end the row with the US Government, and allow negotiations to continue on bigger issues like the Doha trade round.
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Toulouse
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:28 pm

Totally off topic, but...

Quoting Halibut (Reply 24):
But would not want my government to have that attitude !

But unfortunately my friend, in the eye's of the entire world, that's just the attitude they have...
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astuteman
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:29 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 3):
Uncle Sam wouldn't mind loans at market rates. Looks like this is the 'compromise' to end the row.

Bring it on - I honestly can't see why A need preferential condition loans anyway.

Moody's has just uprated their credit rating to A1.

Also, if you look at the last 4 years (i.e. the development of the A380..), in fact their ONLY borrowing in the period was the $3Bn government loans, plus E1Bn of bonds issued at 4.75%. NOTHING ELSE.
All of the rest was paid for from cashflow (honestly!!!).

I still can't help thinking that A is still being used as a pawn to put some pressure on Uncle Sam. Hopefully a move like this would stop the nonsense.
 
flyAUA
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:44 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 31):
I still can't help thinking that A is still being used as a pawn to put some pressure on Uncle Sam. Hopefully a move like this would stop the nonsense.

All in good time...  Wink

This whole thing is just a childish cry for help and a cheap attempt to stop somebody from continuing to be successful. Obviously (and thankfully) that is not going to happen, given the circumstances.
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Halibut
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:52 pm

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 30):
But unfortunately my friend, in the eye's of the entire world, that's just the attitude they have...

I beg to differ ,
If that were true , then the US would have nuked france a long time ago & any other small defenceless country it did not see eye to eye with . France & many other countries do things out of self interest at times too . There are over 2 dozen countries involved in the war on Terror .

Halibut

[Edited 2005-10-13 14:14:17]
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NAV20
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:53 pm

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 33):
This whole thing is just a childish cry for help

Even I find that a bit harsh, FlyAUA. Surely you can't really call Airbus asking for launch aid a 'cry for help'?
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Shenzhen
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:12 pm

Quoting Halibut (Reply 34):
I beg to differ ,
If that were true , then the US would have nuked france a long time ago & any other small defenceless country it did not see eye to eye with . France & many other countries do things out of self interest at times too .

Actually, the world looks to the USA to do what is right, and generally admire it for what it stands for.

If France did anything, nobody would really care... that is the difference.

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flyAUA
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:47 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 35):
Even I find that a bit harsh

So...?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 35):
Surely you can't really call Airbus asking for launch aid a 'cry for help'

There's a difference between getting assistance to start something new, and doing your utmost to destroy something that already exists... the latter being a childish cry for help. Almost every new airliner gets launch aid, without that, they wouldn't be what they are today, and that's a fact everybody KNOWS.
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art
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RE: The End Of Airbus 'Launch Aid' As We Know It?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:08 am

Quoting Halibut (Reply 30):
If that were true , then the US would have nuked france a long time ago & any other small defenceless country it did not see eye to eye with .

I don't think the US could do this to France with impunity, somehow. It's got its own submarine and ICBM delivery system. Touche, mon vieux!