nwa757boy
Posts: 423
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U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:35 am

Below are two articles from the University of Michigans daily student newspaper the Michigan Daily. We have fall break coming up Friday the 14th-Tuesday the 18th many students from out of state go home for the long weekend.

I just found it interesting to see two articles saying don't fly NW
any thoughts?

http://www.michigandaily.com/vnews/d...lay.v/ART/2005/10/12/434ca0bf5d4ee
Viewpoint: Don’t fly Northwest Airlines


By Andres Ramos
October 12, 2005



For the past seven weeks, Northwest Airlines has been doing its level best to break the spirit of its mechanics, as well as the mechanics union. The airline’s demands of pay cuts between 25 and 50 percent have forced the Northwest mechanics to strike for the past seven weeks, shifting their willing and skilled hands from the tools of their trade to, in defense of their livelihood, picket signs. This reprehensible action by Northwest Airlines is not only unjust, but also a threat to the safety of the students who must fly this fall.

Northwest is striving for a nonunion business model similar to JetBlue, and in order to achieve this goal, it is demanding the layoff of more than half its maintenance workforce — leaving almost 5,000 maintenance workers no choice but to go on strike. Northwest Airlines is trying to slash labor costs in an attempt to increase profits, all at the expense of the dedicated maintenance workers and their families. The strikers are fighting a massive pay cut, layoffs for more than half the unit’s workforce, reduced sick pay, reduced vacation and holidays, increased health care costs, pension freezes and increased outsourcing to nonunion shops. The union has even agreed to a 16-percent pay cut, which management refuses to accept. Who has ever heard of workers going on strike for a pay cut?

Although Northwest cancelled 25 percent of its flights on the first day of the strike, the Airline Mechanics Fraternal Association, which represents the mechanics, has a long journey ahead. Northwest Airlines spent more than $100 million on preparations for the strike, 16 months ahead of time, even though it is demanding $176 million from the union. This crisis has clearly been manufactured in an attempt to break the union. Due to the post-Sept. 11 state of the airline industry, all airline unions alike have suffered from cuts in wages, benefits, pensions, etc. Northwest, in particular, has outsourced most of its maintenance crew — it brought in about 1,400 scabs to complete maintenance work immediately after the strike began.

The replacement of dedicated and well-trained maintenance workers is not only unethical but dangerous. Northwest has hired replacement workers — scabs — who do not all have airline mechanic certifications. Unlike airline mechanics, these new scabs are not required to take tests for drug and alcohol use and — because they have only rudimentary training — are not even legally permitted to certify their own maintenance work. Does this seem like a problem to you? Would you board a plane knowing that the men in control of your safety may not even be qualified? I wouldn’t. Additionally, in the wake of Northwest’s dangerous decision, there have been reported incidents where Northwest flights have made emergency landings due to mechanical problems. The use of nonunion, uncertified labor for airline maintenance has drastically reduced passenger safety.

Many University students must rely on commercial airlines to go home for the holidays and for special occasions. Many of us are frequent flyers, and we want to be safe. In light of our concerns for passenger safety and the struggle of the workers at Northwest Airlines, the Michigan Student Assembly’s Peace and Justice Commission urges students not to fly Northwest Airlines.



Ramos is an LSA sophomore and member of the Peace and Justice Commission of the Michigan Student Assembly. His opinion reflects the official position of the commission.


http://www.michigandaily.com/vnews/d...5/10/11/434b4ce1a2370?in_archive=1
From the Daily: Rolling dice at 35,000 feet



Students should avoid Northwest AirlinesStudents should avoid Northwest AirlinesRolling dice at 35,000 feet
October 11, 2005



Flyers have few choices when it comes to leaving Detroit. For most travelers, Northwest Airlines provides the most convenient flights, and often the only direct flights, to final destinations. Unfortunately, as students approach fall break — a fou- day window to visit home or other schools — Northwest is grappling with a labor dispute. In light of this strike, students should avoid Northwest this weekend — not merely out of respect for the mechanics’ union, but also because flying the airline may truly be unsafe.

The airline’s mechanics, represented by the American Mechanics Fraternal Association, have been striking since late August, protesting cost-cutting measures that would dramatically downsize the airline’s team of mechanics and slash pay for those who remain. Since then, Northwest has been flying with the help of replacement mechanics — scabs hired for the sole purpose of surviving the strike and breaking the AMFA.

The current Northwest strike is the first major labor incident to affect the industry since Northwest’s pilot strike during the late 1990s. That strike, which grounded Northwest, was enlightening for the company’s executives; this time, the airline spent $100 million dollars and more than a year preparing for a mechanics strike. More than 1,000 scab mechanics were hired — at wages significantly below what Northwest mechanics were earning — to step up in the event of a strike. Thus, when the AMFA local went on strike almost seven weeks ago, Northwest took the stoppage in stride — it vowed to maintain Federal Aviation Administration safety standards while keeping scheduled flights in the air and on time.

Yet, despite what Northwest claims, the airline’s performance has been suffering. The FAA found that Northwest was the second tardiest airline last month — after a small, regional charter carrier. More importantly, the airline’s safety record is slipping. The Minneapolis-St. Paul Star Tribune reported on FAA reports that detailed glaring deficiencies in Northwest’s maintenance procedures. In one alleged incident, a Northwest DC-9 was cleared by mechanics and prepared to depart Minneapolis for Memphis when the copilot noticed a dead bird in one of the aircraft’s engines. At New York’s John F. Kennedy International Airport, an FAA inspector documented mechanics — and Northwest supervisors — incorrectly inspect and repair an engine blade. The paper, which received over 100 FAA reports, could not contact the airline for comment.

While labor analysts have declared the AMFA strike an abject failure — Northwest has continued to fly, while simultaneously slashing almost 2,500 mechanics’ jobs — the airline has only managed to do so by cutting critical corners. While it has managed to trim labor costs, it has also decided to gamble with passengers’ safety. As they head home for fall break, students should avoid the airline wherever possible. While other airlines may be less convenient, students must answer a personal question: How much is a flight in a safe, well-maintained aircraft worth?
 
toltommy
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:43 am

Gee, the campus newspaper in a liberal breeding ground like Ann Arbor takes a pro-union/anti-big biz stand? Shocking. Ann Arbor is much farther to the left than the rest of Michigan, its not hard to find a good deal of support for socialist causes on the UM campus. M go blow!

When I was young, idealistic, and had my parents to fall back on for support, I was the same way. Then I graduated, had to pay my own bills, and saw how much was left after bills and taxes were paid. Things change when you enter the real world.
 
irelayer
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:46 am

WHY IS EVERYONE MAKING A BIG DEAL ABOUT REPLACEMENT WORKERS AND THE SAFTEY OF THE AIRCRAFT? Most of these people have been trained extensively and a lot of them had jobs as mechanics before the general downturn after 9/11. I just don't understand how this is anything more than an uninformed public opinion.

-IR
 
CMHSRQ
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:48 am

Students don't care who they fly. Like the vast majority of people they want the cheapest ticket. If its on NW they will buy it.
The voice of moderation
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:50 am

blaa blaa blaa

If NWA offers the lowest fares, the kids will fly NWA.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
supa7E7
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:56 am

I wonder if these students are personally accountable for libel and fraud?
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
slider
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:05 am

It is grossly irresponsible for these young skulls full of liberal Wolverine mush to make wild assertions about the airline's safety just because they denounced the old-school Michigan organized labor way of doing things.

You may not agree with what NW did, but what these little morons are doing is worse because they're pontificating from a position of ignorance.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Slider6294/SigResponses/Ohio_State.jpg
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:42 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 4):
If NWA offers the lowest fares, the kids will fly NWA.

Including in all liklihood, I dare say, the ideologues who claim to "agree fully" with the point of view in the articles referenced. Who knows; maybe even the writers themselves will be "duped" into flying with NWA by low fares.

Nothing can compare with the mind-altering, memory-purging narcotic of cheap, non-profit airfares in effecting an "about face" in public opinion!
 
Tornado82
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:44 am

Greatest license plate ever, and its even better that its on a Mini Cooper, proving they're morons for buying one of those.

Quoting Supa7e7 (Reply 5):
I wonder if these students are personally accountable for libel and fraud?

NW should sue, honestly, but then it would jsut cost the university/taxpayers, and not the student individually. What's more alarming is that the disclaimer on the first article says that it the OFFICIAL view of the commission. Ain't that nice, a whoe group of idiots, not just one.

Quoting Slider (Reply 6):
It is grossly irresponsible for these young skulls full of liberal Wolverine mush to make wild assertions about the airline's safety just because they denounced the old-school Michigan organized labor way of doing things.

You may not agree with what NW did, but what these little morons are doing is worse because they're pontificating from a position of ignorance.

If its anything like my school though, the people with power in student senate, the newspaper, etc. were looked down upon as idiots... so their position will mean little to the masses. However, the false propaganda about safety will mean quite more to them.
 
N801NW
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:51 am

Tornado, it is the official view of the UM Peace & Justice Commission, whatever that is, and not the University itself.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:52 am

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 7):
Nothing can compare with the mind-altering, memory-purging narcotic of cheap, non-profit airfares in effecting an "about face" in public opinion!

Amen, brother. Truer words were never spoken.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
Tornado82
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:07 am

Quoting N801NW (Reply 9):
Tornado, it is the official view of the UM Peace & Justice Commission, whatever that is, and not the University itself.

Still more likely than not being funded by the university. Universities are scared to death to not fund (with student activities fees) those more controversial "commissions" and groups... while leaving behind the groups with an academic purpose. Academic groups won't sue behind the clowns known as ACLU as quickly.
 
col
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:23 am

Quoting NWA757boy (Thread starter):
Northwest Airlines is trying to slash labor costs in an attempt to increase profits, all at the expense of the dedicated maintenance workers and their families.

Absolutely brilliant, what are we teaching in our schools and universities. It should read - "in an attempt to increase NEGATIVE profits".

Also, Pilots are quite responsible and safety concious people. If it was a danger to fly Northwest aeroplanes, do you think they would be.

Andres and his buddy will shortly be leaving University and entering the real world. We all know where we can find them, and our first words to them will be "Can I have a big mac, large fries and a chocolate shake"
 
AirWest
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:25 am

I like how people who hate the university were quick to add their comments, such as "M Go Blow." You can't throw the whole U in just because two people wrote in the Michigan Daily that NW wasn't safe.
"And now I wish I was somewhere other than here"- JB
 
DrDeke
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:30 am

While I am not much of a fan of the Michigan Daily, I do not see anything libelous in either of those two articles. Are there incorrect statements of fact in the articles of which I am not aware? Or were you just so shocked to see a liberal view expressed in the media that libel is the first thing that came to mind?

I would love to buy a $200 round-trip ticket from DTW to LAX to visit a friend out there, but I am not interested in flying on an airline that uses scab mechanics and so I will not purchase such a ticket. While my beliefs and actions may conflict with some hard-line or even moderate conservative views held by others, I certainly have the right to purchase or not purchase airline tickets from any company for any reason.

For that matter, the Michigan Daily and all other newspapers have the right to print whatever opinion columns they want about any airline they want, as long as the material is not libelous, which this material does not seem to be.

-DrDeke
If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.
 
Tornado82
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:34 am

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 14):
as long as the material is not libelous, which this material does not seem to be.



Quoting NWA757boy (Thread starter):
but also because flying the airline may truly be unsafe.



Quoting NWA757boy (Thread starter):
AirlinesStudents should avoid Northwest AirlinesRolling dice at 35,000 feet

Until proven otherwise by the FAA, or God forbid an accident... the facts remain that NW is just as safe as any airline... and possibly actually safer than others now because of the increased scrutiny they are under for the strike, bankruptcy, etc. Therefore, terms such as "Rolling the dice" and "may truly be unsafe" is pretty much a lie meant at defaming NW, which is pretty much libelous.
 
robsawatsky
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:34 am

I don't take anything coming from professional students seriously. As long as they think it is always someone else's responsibility to pay for and haven't yet contributed to the tax base they will get my attention equivalent to their contribution.
 
irelayer
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:47 am

Quoting AirWest (Reply 13):
I like how people who hate the university were quick to add their comments, such as "M Go Blow." You can't throw the whole U in just because two people wrote in the Michigan Daily that NW wasn't safe.

I agree. At SDSU we have "The Daily Aztec" and the opinions are so stupid and ignorant most of the time that I have on occassion doubted my choice of school. But I realized I like my school but hate the paper. I think pretty much every student newspaper opinion section sucks. Students that write opinion columns don't have well formed opinions and are just loudmouths (most of the time) and those that do (have well formed opinions) have the sense to express them in something other than a pathetic rag that anyone can write for. I look at a student opinion section as being just a platform for students to find something to complain about...nothing more.

-IR
 
DrDeke
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:49 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 15):
Therefore, terms such as "Rolling the dice" and "may truly be unsafe" is pretty much a lie meant at defaming NW, which is pretty much libelous.

It seems to me that using brand-new mechanics with less training and certification than the previous mechanics to maintain an aircraft fleet is something that indeed "may" be unsafe. Note that the article does not say that it "is" unsafe, just that it "may" be. The dead bird incident and the incorrect-fanblade-replacement incident are two things that seem to me to point to the _possibility_ that NWA's maintenance "may" not be up to its previous standard.

I agree that there are many arguments that could be made for the view that it is as safe as ever to fly on NWA. But there are also arguments that can be made against that view, that are most certanly not "lies".

-DrDeke
If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.
 
nwa757boy
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:21 am

I'm still flying NW no matter what because I am a loyal customer of theirs. I am for unions and feel horrible flying while there is a strike but if there are people willing to do the strikers job at a lower cost then so be it and this has been discussed at full length in other threads so im not going to get into it.

I think the Michigan Daily is full of crap most of the time anyway. Most of the students here wont care what airline they fly home just the cheapest as mentioned above...but the cheapest will most likely be NW since their hub is only 20min from campus at DTW

I know Ann Arbor is a very liberal city in Michigan and this is to be expected in a newspaper from their
 
DouglasDC8
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:32 am

I hope all of you aren't trusting the FAA to keep Northwest safe! In my 23 years of aviation, many of them in safety sensitive positions, My work was very rarely been inspected by FAA people. There never have been enough inspectors and there never will be. That's part of the reason that the FAA has the nickname of "The Tombstone Agency." In other words, they don't have the control over the airlines, the resources, or the will to keep the airlines under their control. And many times and accident will force them into taking action to correct safety issues. If Northwest is safe, it's because of their inhouse procedures and inspections.
 
loisencroach
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:34 am

The students will use whatever airline their parents buy tickets on. What cracks me up is if any of them use a codeshare with Continental, and they end up flying NW by mistake.
 
skyhigh777
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:55 am

I attend the University of Maryland-College Park. I can say that some of the stories that I read in our daily newspaper ( the "Diamondback", which was actually ranked by Princeton Review as a top 20 school newspaper) are pretty opinionated. Moreover, most of the students at my university are also liberals. However, articles like this one from Michigan are over-the-top even for our newspaper. It is extraordinarly filled with biased views from the editor and reflect a complete and utterly ignorant viewpoint. I can understand posting an opinion about what someone thinks is right or wrong, but to back it up with exaggerated information to scare off the public is absolutely absurd. How would these mechanics that these students are fighting for even going to get a job back if people are spreading a "boycott NWA" mentality? It's is precisely thinking like that which will lead to ultimate bankruptcy and permanent job loss if the company goes under. Not to mention, a company like Jetblue which is a "no labor union" company is even more profitable than the old-fashioned airlines that allow labor unions (such as NWA). I understand that people have different political views, but to air something so subjective in a school newspaper is frankly a bunch of crap. Imagine if I were reading that while eating lunch, I would have vomited everywhere...

By the way, one of the articles also mentions how a NWA pilot of a DC-9 was cleared for takeoff but aborted it because he noticed that there was a dead bird on the engine....seeing as how airplanes have no "rearview mirrors", how would the pilot notice it? Would he have to physically stick his head out the window before take off and deliberately check for it? I have not seen that done too often. I am not saying it may not be true, but I would definately appreciate some clarification on that part.

[Edited 2005-10-12 23:05:37]

[Edited 2005-10-12 23:11:29]
Prepare for take-off.
 
skyhigh777
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:15 am

My mistake, I misread and thought the DC-9 was cleared for take off not for departure by the mechanics....that clears things up!
Prepare for take-off.
 
D L X
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:22 am

D L X: Michigan Law Student
Northwest Silver Elite.

Yeah, I'm going to fly another airline. Really.

It's upsetting, you know, that the undergrads here really are some of the smartest young men and women in the country. Yet, sometimes they don't say the smartest things. But, don't take too much away from them - it takes time to develop the ability to truly see both sides of every coin.
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:32 am

Quoting Col (Reply 12):
Also, Pilots are quite responsible and safety concious people. If it was a danger to fly Northwest aeroplanes, do you think they would be.

My theory as well, based on my reasoned assumption that the pilots want to stay alive as much as I do. Nor do pilots want in any way to risk an incident that will compromise their careers by flying an aircraft that does not meet safety standards fully.

On the other hand...

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 14):
I would love to buy a $200 round-trip ticket from DTW to LAX to visit a friend out there, but I am not interested in flying on an airline that uses scab mechanics and so I will not purchase such a ticket.

...this is why I will, to the degree possible, even if it means going out of my way, do the alternate meaning of the initials TAA (by which the former Trans Australia Airlines was known): Take Another Airline.
 
hjulicher
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:53 am

I think that this is overblown. I AM a UNIVERSITY of Michigan student. My ROOMATE is a the biggest reporter for the daily, and from my conversations/arguments with him (he's my friend though), the daily tries to be as objectional as possible. This is an opinion editorial from the daily staff. One of the Michigan Student Assembly students father is a VP at Northwest. So the views of this one student don't necessarily pass onto the whole university nor the City of Ann Arbor. Everyone here is so quick to judge that Ann Arbor is this hippie town where everyone is far flung left. That's not true. Nor in my opinion does this student know enough about the airline industry or NW's condition to make an informed response, however, I wouldn't discredit the whole newspaper either. There are many informative articles in the Daily. the only problem about what is written in the daily is most of the information that the student body gets from the 'outside world.' Therefore do not judge the university nor the student body that we suck because we hold a certain view, which isn't even representative of the whole campus.

I for instance, think that NW needs to restructure their labor cost. I may or may not agree with the ways in which they do it, but I have enough faith in the airline as well as the FAA that they will safeguard passengers from flying on unsafe aircraft. NW is just easy to pick on, but this article again is coming out much too late to even affect students flying this weekend since most of them already purchased their tickets ahead of time.

I'm a silver elite passenger on NW and I will continue to fly them. Time=Money and to save time on a flight because it's direct is more important to me. Besides, even if there is something that goes unoticed on a plane because it was not inspected properly doesn't mean that it's going to fall from the sky.

I am one of many students at UofM that doesn't agree with article, and in fact an shocked that the daily would print something on an article that they know so little about. I sympathize with the employees at NW who face looming job cuts, but I also understand that as a customer, if NW goes under and cannot restructure or has critical incidents while in bankruptcy, the Detroit metro area will loose it's connection to the outside world. What airline is in the position right now to move into a new hub. Maybe continental will move from cleveland? (just a hypothetical).

Really you all need to come down, and not follow this reporter's model, by making dumb and false reports and opinions. '
LH 442
 
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jetjack74
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:53 am

Quoting IRelayer (Reply 2):
WHY IS EVERYONE MAKING A BIG DEAL ABOUT REPLACEMENT WORKERS AND THE SAFTEY OF THE AIRCRAFT? Most of these people have been trained extensively and a lot of them had jobs as mechanics before the general downturn after 9/11. I just don't understand how this is anything more than an uninformed public opinion.

Yes, and that's why, just a few weeks ago, NW admitted that a sizable number of these "highly qualified" mechanics needed to be retrained due to a lack of experience.

Quoting Col (Reply 12):
Absolutely brilliant, what are we teaching in our schools and universities. It should read - "in an attempt to increase NEGATIVE profits".

No it's getting the company to achieve profitablility with the workforce they have, not importing workers from foriegn countries. We have a right have the jobs we were hired for, and dismissing us "we cost too much", and not because we're unproductve is not a valid reason to ship us out the door. The mechanics were willing to take concessions, but the company was hell bent on making proposals that were almost borderline insane.
Made from jets!
 
fjnovak1
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:03 am

I feel the need to chime in with my comments...as someone who will always see SE Michigan as home, a U of M alum (class of 2003), and a NW Silver Elite...

I feel very badly for the mechanics for their situation but unfortunately, they should look at their union- the AMFA basically walked its members off a plank here. I'd bet NW would rather have their own mechanics rather than contract out, but due to the unions stance have found it more economical to contract out maintenance work. Since late August I have taken eight different flight segments on NW and only one was impacted by any 'non-scheduled maintenance' ...and after going back to Ann Arbor for alumni/homecoming weekend last year and seeing the amount of U of M shirts, caps, and sweatshirts worn by passengers in the MacNamara Terminal at DTW, I'd wager that most alumni at least, don't believe NW is unsafe.

The students writing the article are not going to end up working in fast food as one poster implied-- they are currently enrolled in a fine University and have the opportunity to receive a world-class education should they wish to take advantage of it, but unfortunately, in my opinion, they ought to study the facts a bit more (perhaps read this forum or read the Detroit News or Free Press) before spewing off on a subject they know little about. I personally, have no qualms flying the red tails and certainly hope they find their way in today's tough aviation market.

Good luck Northwest, and most importantly, GO BLUE!!!!!  Smile
Go Blue!!
 
satx
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:26 am

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 1):
Things change when you enter the real world.

I think taking corporate stewardship seriously and basing your purchasing decisions upon it is actually a good thing. Far too many Americans ignore the records of the companies they buy from IMO.

Quoting IRelayer (Reply 2):
I just don't understand how this is anything more than an uninformed public opinion.

I agree. Your post doesn't appear to be anything more than a uniformed public opinion.

Quoting Supa7e7 (Reply 5):
I wonder if these students are personally accountable for libel and fraud?

My guess is no, seeing as how they have committed neither.

Quoting Slider (Reply 6):
You may not agree with what NW did, but what these little morons are doing is worse

Grow up. Please.

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 7):
Who knows; maybe even the writers themselves will be "duped" into flying with NWA by low fares.

Based on what premise, exactly?

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 11):
Still more likely than not being funded by the university.

Give me a break.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 15):
Therefore, terms such as "Rolling the dice" and "may truly be unsafe" is pretty much a lie meant at defaming NW, which is pretty much libelous.

So then, Mr. Fascist, which negative views of NW are we specifically allowed to voice then?

Quoting NWA757boy (Reply 19):
I'm still flying NW no matter what because I am a loyal customer of theirs.

What an odd thing to say. I've never been beholden to any one company and I can't fathom why anyone would blindly copy their original decisions, apparently just for the sake of tradition.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
Squid
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:42 am

This is nothing more than a buch of leftly liberal union-monger crapolla. Get over it people, NWA won the fight. NWA needs to rid themselves of their unions, IAM and PFAA as well. There is no place for these unions and their high wages for front line workers when you are competing in one of the most cut throat industries. Now I must go, I meeting friends for dinner at Applebee's, mmmm Applebee's.
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:35 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 29):
Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 7):
Who knows; maybe even the writers themselves will be "duped" into flying with NWA by low fares.

Based on what premise, exactly?

Based on the "premise, exactly" that principle, ideals and ideology have a strange way of being thrown out the proverbial window where a few dollars in airfare can be saved -- or wherever money is concerned for that matter.

Did you honestly not see the premise behind my conjecture???
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5126
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:44 am

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 18):
It seems to me that using brand-new mechanics with less training and certification than the previous mechanics to maintain an aircraft fleet is something that indeed "may" be unsafe.

Gee, Dr. Deke, I'm pleased to see you point out that the "journalism" students who work at the paper HAVE LEARNED SOMETHING in class! What they have learned, of course, is that you can insert the word "may" in a sentence and thereby give yourself the ability to say legally almost anything, or to subtly slant the article in the direction that you want the reader to think. Hell, this was part of the discussion when I was in college, which was a long, long time ago. I'm sure these folks also have learned to say "In my opinion..." which is another protector, or, what I think is the hands-down favorite of reporters everywhere, "Some people say that..."

Some people say that Northwest is unsafe.
Some people say that Northwest is the safest carrier on the planet.

In my opinion, Northwest is totally unsafe.
In my opinion, Northwest is the safest carrier on the planet.

Northwest may now be the safest carrier anywhere.
Northwest may now be the unsafest carrier anywhere.

Sigh.

Oh, and by the way, where did you learn that these were "brand new" mechanics? Or that they had "less certification and training"?

Oh, and did anyone bother to mention that most of the affected employees, while represented by AMFA (the "mechanics' union") are aircraft CLEANERS? Didn't think so. Boy, I really worry about the training and certification and experience of those aircraft cleaners.

I have no intention of picking sides in this dispute, but a fair presentation of the facts in one place ... haven't seen it yet.

And, of course, you and all the kiddies have the right to fly whomever you want whenever you want for whatever reason you want. That's the great thing about freedom and free enterprise. Fact is, the guy who flies from DFW to EWR via MSP just to get the FF miles isn't making any more logical a choice of airline than are the kiddies who wanna "stick up for the union members". In the end, it really makes no difference whatsoever.

[Edited 2005-10-13 01:51:32]
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:44 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 29):

So then, Mr. Fascist, which negative views of NW are we specifically allowed to voice then?

The factually true ones. That they have unsafe planes is an unfounded piece of propaganda... and is libelous in nature. And let me repeat... school newspapers and other student activities are funded by the universities be it directly, fully, indirectly, or partially. Since UM is a STATE university, that means that TAXPAYER MONEY was indirectly spent on this issue.

I was a college radio DJ at a small state school in Pennsylvania for 2 years before I transferred to another university, I know how much of our funding came directly from university coffers compared to how much came from advertisers. And when I made some comments about some state-government officials while on the air as DJ when I had the "I'm transferring and you can't touch me" attitude of a vindictive 19 year old... I was officially sanctioned, and even received a phone call straight from that government official, that I should not be wasting PA Taxpayer dollars in an effort to spread Political propaganda unless I paid for my airtime.

This newspaper is pretty much the same thing, I'm sure if someone looked at their books that they receive quite a large amount of dollars from the university activity funds. And let us remember, the university is an arm of state government in Michigan.

For the record, I consider myself a moderate to liberal, and even at that, I think this stuff was BS not fit to print, just because it was blatently untrue.
 
nwa757boy
Posts: 423
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:10 am

RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:46 am

Fjnovak and hjulicher welcome to my Respected use list

i get a little smile when i see that other people from U of M are a.netters

and just like you guys i'm NW silver elite
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5126
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:47 am

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 26):
the daily tries to be as objectional as possible

I know this was a typo by a student who was typing fast, and shouldn't reflect poorly on him or the school, but this unintended typo is JUST TOO GOOD to let pass.

"Objectionable" or "objective"? Which one? Actually, probably both.
 
mia
Posts: 813
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 1:40 am

RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:51 am

WOW. You guys get a fall break?! I wish FSU got one of those. Maybe someone should write an article for the FSVIEW/Florida Flambeau about how crappy Delta is, etc, etc.
"Like all great travelers, I have seen more than I remember, and remember more than I have seen."
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:06 am

Quoting IRelayer (Reply 2):
WHY IS EVERYONE MAKING A BIG DEAL ABOUT REPLACEMENT WORKERS AND THE SAFTEY OF THE AIRCRAFT?

Because they don't get it.
 
nwa757boy
Posts: 423
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:10 am

RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:06 am

just a question...if i sent these articles to NW do you think they would take any action or just blow it off because they have too much other things to worry about?
 
DrDeke
Posts: 805
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:13 am

RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:26 am

Wjcandee: I was not attempting to comment on the quality of the journalism in the Michigan Daily, or of that in these particular articles ("If you can't say something nice..."). I was simply saying that I do not see any libelous material in them.

In fact, I have a fairly low opinion of the overall quality of the journalism in the Michigan Daily, but then again I am disappointed with the quality of the journalism in most media, so what should I expect?  Smile

-DrDeke
If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.
 
DrDeke
Posts: 805
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:13 am

RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:29 am

Quoting NWA757boy (Reply 38):
if i sent these articles to NW do you think they would take any action or just blow it off because they have too much other things to worry about?

I think they would take no action because nothing in the articles is legally actionable.

-DrDeke
If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.
 
CXA330300
Posts: 1257
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 5:51 am

RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:11 am

If NW wants to cut costs, they ought to cut the execs pay, bonuses and perks first before they fire average workers.
AC/AA/UA/DL/B6/WN/US*/CO*/FI/BA/IB/AF/SK/LX/Sabena*/TK/LY/SA/MN/SW/AM/CE*/CX/CA/MU/JL/SQ/TG/MH/KA/5J
 
nwafflyer
Posts: 888
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:29 am

RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:19 am

Remember -- this is Michigan -- the home of the union. Look at Flint, and all it's wonderful GM business now. Look at the transplants, who are not in Michigan. U of M is a good school, but, it is Michigan.

Give NWA their due -- I still fly them every week, nothing seems to break, flights are no more late than normal, and I will continue to fly them. I do not like the LCC's because they will leave me stranded with a cancellation, and NWA prices are always reasonable
 
fspilot747
Posts: 3455
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 1999 2:58 am

RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:28 am

I read that this morning (I'm a U of M student, too). In the end of the day, though, like already stated, we're gonna fly whatever we can afford.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5126
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:39 am

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 40):
Quoting NWA757boy (Reply 38):
if i sent these articles to NW do you think they would take any action or just blow it off because they have too much other things to worry about?

I think they would take no action because nothing in the articles is legally actionable.

-DrDeke

I agree completely. If they were smart, however, they'd have one of their PR staffers write an article under the byline of a senior executive, and submit it for publication on the basis of "balance" in the paper, and they'd probably get it. Ideal article would be very schmoozy, appreciating the students' interest in their business, saying how incredibly important the students' business is to NW, how many elite FFs there are among the students, and how they view the students as potential lifelong customers that they want to keep. Then it would talk about how incredibly hard the choices were that they had to make to keep the airline alive, how the major international unions that represent other NW employees had fought hard but had come up short of a strike (and how those major unions like the IAM had been able, in this environment, to negotiate fair contracts with other distressed carriers), how this particular union, which is made up mostly of airline CLEANERS, had not been reasonable, and they didn't anticipate it to be, even though the union actually OFFERED to sack half its members. NW would say that they love their employees and want them back, and that any individual member can come back, of course within this new structure that is working so very well for them. They would then talk about how delighted they are that the students are looking outside the confines of this wonderful university and taking an interest in issues of great importance to the public, and that they appreciate and respect the students' views, and totally support their right to express them. They would then say that all U of M students should always know how much NW enjoys having them on their planes, and how the author personally looks forward to meeting many of them when he is personally out at the DTW terminal on the busy departure and arrival days over this weekend, and hopes they'll come up and say hello.

That would pretty much do it.

[Edited 2005-10-13 03:50:09]
 
aviatortj
Posts: 1694
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 9:15 am

RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:55 am

Quoting NWA757boy (Thread starter):
I just found it interesting to see two articles saying don't fly NW
any thoughts?

I've always heard it is safer to go by rail than to fly the red-tail.


 duck 
 
NASCARAirforce
Posts: 2452
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:27 am

RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:04 am

Congrats to the UM writers. My old Alma Mater before going to Embry Riddle.

Thank God Air Tran has direct flights to DTW from MCO now, because thats who I will be flying and not Northwaste.
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:36 am

NWA management/salaried personnel just got wind of their cuts this morning and while they aren't nearly as significant as what they are asking their unions to take, they are on par with the industry while the unions are still far off-base and that is why NWA is in Ch11 as they are right now.

NWA filed a very well written and compelling 1113c Tuesday night with the BK judge and they feel very confident in their posistion right now and they feel the BK judge will side with them in nearly all of what they seek in the 1113c form. The word is they will be out of Ch11 and even turning a profit by the 1st quarter of 2007 with profit sharing to help make up for these cuts. It sucks to take a paycut but there are bound to be opportunities to be had at NWA right now for those willing to suck it up a little and stick it out with the company.

Quoting Aviatortj (Reply 45):
Quoting NWA757boy (Thread starter):
I just found it interesting to see two articles saying don't fly NW
any thoughts?

I've always heard it is safer to go by rail than to fly the red-tail.

The safety issue is all union-rhetoric - no pilot would ever depart with their plane if they if in any way felt their own safety was at all compromised. The pilots are the first ones to hit the ground in a crash and they have families just as well as anyone else does.

As for AMFA in regards to NWA they are all but toast right now but they will be meeting with managment un-mediated so we'll see by Thursday just how much AMFA might be willing to settle for now, because they aren't going to get any sympathy (if even representation) in any BK court. I believe America West just reached a deal with their AMFA mechs so I'd be interested to see what they got and what NWA would want from this point from AMFA.
 
3201
Posts: 813
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 4:16 pm

RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:02 pm

Quoting NWA757boy (Thread starter):

Ramos is an LSA sophomore and member of the Peace and Justice Commission of the Michigan Student Assembly.



Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 11):
Still more likely than not being funded by the university.

Like the rest of the Michigan Student Assembly (MSA), AKA Morons Seeking Attention, likely funded 100% by student fees, which, when I was there, you couldn't opt out of, no matter how much you disagreed (kinda like union dues). When I was there, they spent $$$ sending MSA members on "fact-finding missions" to the west bank, and spent lots of time passing a resolution saying that the $$$ the US gov gave to the Contras should have been sent to the African National Congress instead, but wouldn't give us a couple hundred bucks to paint a hallway in a dorm (or even let the request be heard for debate). Go figure.

Stanford has the right idea -- students can get refunds of portions of their student fees supporting organizations they don't want to support, and the Bone-Overdeck Amendment to the student government constitution forbade spending any student fees off-campus.
7 hours aint long-haul
 
toltommy
Posts: 2465
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:04 am

RE: U Of M Say "No" To NW

Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:05 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 29):
I think taking corporate stewardship seriously and basing your purchasing decisions upon it is actually a good thing.

I agree. I try to buy local whenever possible. But I expect the local company to be competetive with the global players. Do they have to beat Wally-world on price? Not necessarily. But there needs to be a compelling reason to spend more. Sometimes local companies can make the case. Here in Toledo, I drive past a Lowe's, Wal-mart, and a Target to shop at The Anderson's, a local retail chain. I find their prices competetive with bigger chains, their service is better, and I know the money stays here. But there are certain things that I can't justify paying more for, and shop Wal-Mart.

And for those of you who don't like to see me say "M go blow", all I can tell you is that this Ohio boy was raised right by his father....  razz 

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