wrighbrothers
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Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:25 am

When BA stoppted serving Pittsburgh on the 31st of October 1999, was their any reason why? In the photo bellow it says "This is one of the last flights of British Airways EVER into Pittsburgh
As of October 31st British Airways will halt service to Pittsburgh and another route LHR-LAS will be implemented by Virgin Atlantic.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © John R. Cushma


Can someone enlighten me as to why
1- BA stopped the route2Is the photographer true in saying " one of the last BA flights EVER to Pittsburgh", and if he was true , why was it second from last ever ?
Finally
3- Why a VS route to LAS affected the BA route to PIT ?

Thanks, Wrighbrothers
Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
 
AGC525
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:31 am

As a kid growing up in PIT and starting my interest in aviation, I used to love seeing the BA 747 come in once a day, right over my house, always around 5pm.

I'd like to know that too...
American Aviation: From Kitty Hawk to the Moon in 66 years!
 
ctbarnes
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:31 am

I'm guessing here, so someone in the know please tell me whether I'm right.

First off, in the 80's to the mid 90's BA had an alliance with US Airways which included a BA flying LHR-PIT to hook into US's hub network. When BA then tried to get into bed with AA, the alliance with US was abruptly ended much to US's chagrin. Predictably, traffic fell off and yields did as well (if they ever were very good).

What role does VS play in all this? My guess is when BA ended LHR-PIT the slot out of LHR came up for grabs and was subsequently purchased or otherwise obtained by VS for its LHR-LAS service.

How's that for an educated guess?

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
tymnbalewne
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:32 am

One big reason was the end of the US/BA alliance. US provided BA PIT significant feed via codeshare connections.

Trivia: BA is still paying for counter and lounge space at PIT.

C.
Dewmanair...begins with Dew
 
AA54Heavy
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:45 am

Quoting TymnBalewne (Reply 3):
Trivia: BA is still paying for counter and lounge space at PIT.

Did they have a long term contract? When can they stop paying?
Roger that, turning to our "other" left
 
jacobin777
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:48 am

I like the fact its a Boeing 767 and it has a "City of Toulouse" painted on it. spin 
"Up the Irons!"
 
MichiganMAN
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:49 am

a boeing plane named "City of Toulouse" ooooh the irony.
UK -> USA
 
AEROFAN
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:50 am

Well BA ain't no fool! The loads just weren't there
 
NetworkDoc
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:05 am

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 2):
First off, in the 80's to the mid 90's BA had an alliance with US Airways which included a BA flying LHR-PIT to hook into US's hub network.

I just checked some OAG data on seats and frequencies, for years 1994-2003. According to that, there was *NO* LHR-PIT flight at all - it shows as LGW-PIT (included in the OAG search were all flights to/from PIT on no- and one-stop services). Can you guys just tell me if OAG is wrong or if we should be talking about LGW instead of LHR?

In any case, LGW-PIT was operated by BA until 1999. However, interestingly enough, after BA dropped it, US picked up the traffic, and, as a result, capacity remained on average the same whilst frequencies remained identical. Thus, scientifically speaking, even though BA no longer serves the routes, passengers should not have lost in the amount of capacity/frequency provided (of course, this does not address service preference).

I would go with the general view here that PIT was alliance-related for BA, although cutting back of long-haul destinations has been a general trend to streamline the operation, evident in the fact that it was operated both before and after the alliance with US.
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BAViscount
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:16 am

Quoting Aerofan (Reply 7):
Well BA ain't no fool! The loads just weren't there

Could well be true.

I once flew LHR-PIT with BA back in 1992 when they were using a 744 on that route. The flight made a stopover in IAD where it seems that most pax left the flight. We continued on to PIT with a very light load. I believe it was the same on the return journey - very few pax boarded at PIT, although I'm not sure of the load on the IAD-LHR leg as I was seated on the upper deck, so didn't see how full the flight was downstairs. However, this was in February, so I'm not sure what the demand would be for flying LHR-PIT at that chilly time of year in The Burgh!
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ctbarnes
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:36 am

Quoting NetworkDoc (Reply 8):
I just checked some OAG data on seats and frequencies, for years 1994-2003. According to that, there was *NO* LHR-PIT flight at all - it shows as LGW-PIT (included in the OAG search were all flights to/from PIT on no- and one-stop services). Can you guys just tell me if OAG is wrong or if we should be talking about LGW instead of LHR?

Well, there goes that theory out the window. Thanks for checking.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
PITrules
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:48 am

BA started PIT service without an alliance in the mid eighties as an add on to IAD. This went on for about 5 years, so I guess BA considered the add on successful enough. The route really became successfull when BA and US had an alliance, in which nonstop service was added to LGW. When the alliance ended, there was no longer enough revenue to justify the nonstop service. Reverting back to an add on from IAD or PHL might have worked again, but one stop service seemed to have gone out of style by this time because of all the global alliances.

When BA announced the closure of the route, BA said they would have continued with it if they could get only 1 or 2 people more people per day on average in first class. CAL's CLE service may have taken those 1 or 2 First class passengers from BA.

After BA ended the service, the British gov't gave the LGW-PIT authority to Virgin. They transferred the service to LAS.
FLYi
 
tymnbalewne
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:09 am

Quoting AA54Heavy (Reply 4):
Quoting TymnBalewne (Reply 3):
Trivia: BA is still paying for counter and lounge space at PIT.

Did they have a long term contract? When can they stop paying?

When did the new airport open? Take that date and add 25 years. (it's either 20 or 25).

C.
Dewmanair...begins with Dew
 
vega
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:57 am

A few months ago, the Pittsburgh papers had several articles on the city's current efforts to try and get BA or LH to start services from Pittsburgh. That was of course after US downsized PIT and eliminated direct service to Europe. I haven't read any further news on the results of those efforts. The city's top business leaders also pressed Parker (US Airways CEO), when he visited there about 2 months ago, to restart a US service to Europe (LGW and/or FRA). Without the (US) feed Pittsburgh once had, I doubt it will happen; although the city seems to feel top tier O&D is there for at least a single flight on it's own merits. I would think that if Pittsburgh businesses really wanted a flight, they could offer to subsidize one IF US (or anyone else) had a spare capable aircraft. I'd just still question the viability of the Europe to Pittsburgh loads though.
We are but a moment in this vast Universe and when gone we will never have existed.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:00 am

I believe USAir and BA had a code-share agreement on the route. USAir cancelled their marketing agreement with BA, thus reducing feed for the BA flight. It ceased being profitable and BA pulled out.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
jcavinato
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:01 am

I remember BA doing PIT/IAD/LHR, then it was PIT/PHL/LHR.

The nonstop started when BA invested $550 million into USAirways and as part of the deal leased one or two of USAirways 767s, reliveried them, and flew them PIT-LGW non-stop. That ended when long term prospects with USAir seemed to wain and BA/AA started dating. I rode the last LGW-PIT flight run by BA. I was invited to a crew party at PIT at the end of the flight. BA had a nice cake and other snacks -- thanked the USAirways folks for a nice relationship.

I flew PIT-LGW and back every three or four weeks for about five years. I remember being the only person in business class on a few of those flights. I could leave SCE late in the afternoon for PIT and connect for the overnight. Coming back it was a quick walk through immigration and customs and a flight home in time for dinner.
 
KingGeo3
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:33 am

Quoting AGC525 (Reply 1):
As a kid growing up in PIT and starting my interest in aviation, I used to love seeing the BA 747 come in once a day, right over my house, always around 5pm.

You know what AGC525, the exact same flight piqued my interest in aviation when it flew over my house at 5pm. Too bad it isn't there anymore.

-KG3
Nobody respects me . . . :(
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:55 am

Quoting Aerofan (Reply 7):
Well BA ain't no fool! The loads just weren't there

I agree. I guess the poms just cottoned on to the fact that instead of flying to Pittsburgh, for a similar experience they might as well jump in the car and drive to Birmingham.
 
Tornado82
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:01 pm

Quoting Vega (Reply 13):
although the city seems to feel top tier O&D is there for at least a single flight on it's own merits.

Freight for the pharmaceuticals is what they're looking at too, kind of like that RDU flight that has been overanalyzed to death here on A.net. The city/county feels that the top tier O&D would suffice, but yet everyone here says Biz class was always empty. Interesting.
 
wrighbrothers
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:51 am

Thanks for all your replies, and sorry for the late reply ( I started this tread at about 10:30pm British time and I have just got back from school).
Anyways, I am now intrigued , could/ would BA start the route again

Wrighbrothers  Smile
Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
 
Tornado82
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:00 am

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 19):
could/ would BA start the route again

Doubtful. Wrong alliance. PIT is still a Star Alliance town, AA is trying to make PIT a non-mainline city. If BA ran 757's Transatlantic, then maybe. Otherwise, I don't see it.

That said, I think there are actually a couple possible markets for someone running 757's Transatlantic to/from PIT. London, then probably FRA as well, and maybe even AMS. However, none of the big 757 runners (specifically CO) are big in PIT... and CO sure as hell wouldn't do it and drain away from CLE.
 
atct
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:14 am

Yea I remember seeing the 741's back when I was a kid. Beautiful bird which will be missed (as is their 76's).

Yea AA will be this next schedule a non-mainline city with all Eagle.

As for demand, I could see a Star Alliance carrier starting PIT-Europe service here, just not US Airways. I dont know why the county keeps trying to coax US into more flights, it isnt going to happen. Frankly, screw US. Lets try and get LH or maybe even someone like BMI or even a Oneworld carrier in here. I believe we have the demand for London or Paris.

my  twocents 

ATCT
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wrighbrothers
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:22 am

Quoting ATCT (Reply 21):
it isn't going to happen. Frankly, screw US. Lets try and get LH or maybe even someone like BMI or even a Oneworld carrier in here. I believe we have the demand for London or Paris.

I wouldn't think BD would take up a PIT route , their fleet is streached enough and they would only serve PIT only a 2 or 3 times weekly schedule. Which wouldn't be adequate enough for profits that they would want. LH I could see in the future , but not for a few years more.
I too think that only a star alliance airline would try the route , because , as has already been said, PIT is almost all star alliance so a oneworld airline would have a hard time getting passengers mesthinks.
If/ or an airline foes start a route to Europe , it would be to LGW/MAN and then possibly a FRA or CDG route using a B767 or B757 , but nothing larger.

Wrighbrothers
Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
 
worldflyer
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:23 am

TWA flew PIT-LGW as well, believe it started in 1980 or 1981...3x/weekly with L-1011's, it didn't last long. Then in 1985 BA started LHR-xxx-PIT with xxx either IAD, PHL, even YUL over the next 15 years...finally towards the end the route was nonstop LGW-PIT with 767.
 
ei2ksea
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:34 am

Strangely on the topic of new transatlantic flights from PIT, when Willie Walsh was still CEO of Aer Lingus he mentioned that PIT was one destination he would like to serve channeling passengers through DUB (as well as a list of others). This of course couldnt happen with the Irish-US bilateral however I wonder might he show the same interest in linking cities such as PIT to the BA network via LHR now that he is at the BA helm.

Regards
ph
Next Flight: DUB-BOS (EI), BOS-DEN-PDX (SWA), SEA-BOS (AS)
 
mainMAN
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:47 am

Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 17):
I guess the poms just cottoned on to the fact that instead of flying to Pittsburgh, for a similar experience they might as well jump in the car and drive to Birmingham.

Charming. Since when has Birmingham been a steel city?
 
PITrules
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:34 am

Quoting MainMAN (Reply 25):
Charming. Since when has Birmingham been a steel city?

Likewise, since when has Pittsburgh been a steel city?

Not in 30 some years.
FLYi
 
Tornado82
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:29 am

Quoting PITrules (Reply 26):

Likewise, since when has Pittsburgh been a steel city?

Not in 30 some years.

 checkmark 

Beat me to the punch there. But of course, everyone thinks its still a smelly, smokey, dirty steel town.
 
wrighbrothers
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:17 am

Quoting Ei2ksea (Reply 24):
I wonder might he show the same interest in linking cities such as PIT to the BA network via LHR now that he is at the BA helm.

Perhaps he could extend a route , perhaps an IAD, IAH or BWI route extention would be goood. Another route I was thinkijng of was the Charlotte route , that went through BWI ( LHR-BWI-CLT AND BACK ).

I recon BA should do LHR-BWI-CLT-BWI-LHR
LHR-IAD- PIT-IAD-LHR round trips ,
This could attract more customers.

Wrighbrothers
Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
 
Kahala777
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:37 am

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Thread starter):
As of October 31st British Airways will halt service to Pittsburgh and another route LHR-LAS will be implemented by Virgin Atlantic

Virgin Atlantic started Las Vegas to London Gatwick, with 2 x a week. The service has since grown to include the 747-400 up to 6 x per week in 2006. There are very strong rumors of a daily link to Gatwick, and an additional 2 x per week to Manchester. That would bring the number of Las Vegas to England flights to 8 per week on Virgin Atlantic.

KAHALA777
 
flyboy7974
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:08 pm

but on another point i dont see stated, there never was las-heathrow service, it's always been gatwick
 
wrighbrothers
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Sat Oct 15, 2005 7:15 pm

Quoting Flyboy7974 (Reply 30):
but on another point I don't see stated, there never was Las-heathrow service, it's always been gatwick

It was LGW because it's a leisure route.Not enough premium passengers for a LHR route.
Now I just wish BA would start a daily LHR/LGW-LAS route with 744/777 in 4 class cabin layout.

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 28):
I reckon BA should do LHR-BWI-CLT-BWI-LHR
LHR-IAD- PIT-IAD-LHR round trips ,
This could attract more customers.

Anythoughts ?

Wrighbrothers
P.S - Thanks for all your replies
Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
 
Joost
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Sat Oct 15, 2005 7:23 pm

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 31):

It was LGW because it's a leisure route.Not enough premium passengers for a LHR route.

It was also LGW as by the Bermuda II-treaty, non-stop LHR-LAS flights are not allowed.
 
speedbirdcrew
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Sat Oct 15, 2005 8:24 pm

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 31):

I'm sure I read somewhere that BA want to focus on offering Direct services wherever possible, what's the point of running an almost empty 747 IAD-PIT for example when an RJ could do the same job just fine. Don't forget BA cant pick up passengers in the US either. From memory there are only a few flights BA do a second sector on: LHR-ORD-IAH; LHR-SIN/BKK-SYD; LGW-ANU-TAB/Grenada(?); LHR-EZE-GRU/GIG being the ones that come to mind (I know someone will correct me if i'm wrong!!)
 
Joost
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Sat Oct 15, 2005 8:26 pm

Quoting Speedbirdcrew (Reply 33):
LHR-SIN/BKK-SYD

At least here they have 5th freedom rights, so they can sell tickets SIN/BKK-SYD v.v., so they don't need to fly half-empty planes.
 
wrighbrothers
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:30 am

Hi Speedbirdcrew  Smile

Quoting Speedbirdcrew (Reply 33):
(I know someone will correct me if i'm wrong!!)

Add LHR-NAS-GCM/PLS
LGW-St Lucia/Grenada/Tobago
LHR-BAH-Doha
LHR-Abu Dhabi-Muscat
Oh BTW, It's LHR-GRU-GIG/EZE.

Quoting Speedbirdcrew (Reply 33):
LHR-SIN/BKK-SYD;

Dont forget LHR-SIN-MEL
All taken form my trusty October issue of Highlife!

Wrighbrothers
Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:07 am

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Thread starter):
Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Why did USAir stop serving a lot from PIT!?
 Big grin
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
User avatar
FlyCaledonian
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Sun Oct 16, 2005 5:17 am

When BA dropped LGW-PIT VS applied for the authority to switch PIT as a US gateway to LAS, enabling them to start LGW-LAS service. VS had earlier failed to win the right to start this service when BA won the right to add DEN as an additional gateway. Interestingly, since BA dropped CLT after 9/11 there is an unused gateway under Bermuda II. In the current climate I can't see BA or VS applying to start a new US destination from LGW - the only one that I considered possible was New Orleans. Guess that'll be off the radar for a few years.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
speedbirdcrew
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Sun Oct 16, 2005 5:23 am

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 35):
All taken form my trusty October issue of Highlife!

I knew there was a use for that, and now I know what it is!!

Thanks for the corrections  Big grin
 
wrighbrothers
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:21 am

Quoting Speedbirdcrew (Reply 38):
knew there was a use for that, and now I know what it is!!
Thanks for the corrections

When I flew LHR-LAX in August on BA, I spent .....ummm , a few hours talking to the cabin crew , 2 hours studying the BA route map ( I'm sad like that  Wink ) and 10 minutes looking at my only meal , A cheese and tomato sandwich. But no complaints the cabin crew were great!

Wrighbrothers
Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
 
Tornado82
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Mon Oct 17, 2005 12:25 pm

Quoting Skyexramper (Reply 36):

Why did USAir stop serving a lot from PIT!?

One smartass question deserves some smartass answers.

1) Because USAir hasn't existed for years.
2) If you meant USAirWAYS, its because they'd rather try for the one day a week PHL isn't ground stopped in the name of O&D traffic... despite the fact that PHL still does a gazillion inconvenient as hell connections of primarily disgruntled passengers everyday.
3) When they went to the Commonwealth of PA for concessions under the premise of only hubbing in one city... "Fast Eddy" (PA's Governor Ed Rendell, former mayor of Philadelphia) offered significantly larger concessions from the commonwealth for hubbing from PHL, not PIT.

As for those PHL connections. Ask the 2 planeloads full of businesspeople from across the USAirways network who got stranded in ABE on Friday night, when USAirways cancelled the last 2 flights to PHL of the night from ABE, and delayed the prior one to that for 3 hours... all because of the light drizzle/low OVC in PHL. PIT was running smooth as a whistle. As was UA at IAD, CO at CLE (and EWR was less backed up as per www.fly.faa.gov)

Before someone gets on me for "being a broken record," that question had pot-stirring written all over it.
 
georgiabill
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Mon Oct 17, 2005 12:30 pm

Following the Kiss theory(keep it simple stupid) It was not economically viable
 
vega
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RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Mon Oct 17, 2005 4:15 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 40):
When they went to the Commonwealth of PA for concessions under the premise of only hubbing in one city... "Fast Eddy" (PA's Governor Ed Rendell, former mayor of Philadelphia) offered significantly larger concessions from the commonwealth for hubbing from PHL, not PIT.

Really? Care to be more specific?

http://www.auditorgen.state.pa.us/De...t/Press/LakeFieldPressRelease.html

http://www.state.pa.us/papower/cwp/view.asp?A=11&QUESTION_ID=435123

Audio of above conference results:

http://www.governor.state.pa.us/governor/cwp/view.asp?a=1115&q=435130

Additionally, remember how Pittsburgh dragged their feet and refused to reduce Landing fees, even after USAir threatened to reduce service (unless they did)?

Ignoring the pure economic reasons for the decision to pick PHL over PIT (O&D, 240 mi closer to Europe, many Europeans haven't even heard of CLT, let alone PIT, etc., etc..), I feel the evidence shows that the city of Pittsburgh itself bears a great deal of responsibility for loosing their Hub status and I wouldn't be surprised if HP's management team reduced service further in favor of PHL or CLT. Surely, if USAir (US Airways) was more interested in hubbing at one of the finest airports in the country, rather than at their largest revenue center, they would have picked PIT - and probably gone into Chapter 7. Bottom line, Pittsburgh's got a great asset in their airport and it's time they developed a strategy to best use it and stopped wasting time bashing Philadelphia, Rendell and US Airways for all their problems - both at the airport and within the city. End of unemotional reply.
We are but a moment in this vast Universe and when gone we will never have existed.
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: Why Did BA Stop Serving Pittsburgh?

Mon Oct 17, 2005 9:38 pm

Quoting Vega (Reply 42):
I feel the evidence shows that the city of Pittsburgh itself bears a great deal of responsibility for loosing their Hub status and I wouldn't be surprised if HP's management team reduced service further in favor of PHL or CLT

If you're gonna blame someone locally, learn Western PA Geography/Politics first. The city of Pittsburgh has little to nothing to do with the airport, which resides in Moon and Findlay (and maybe one other with its shear size) Townships. The airport is run by Allegheny County. It was the commissioners at the time when it all began, who admittedly were clusterf*cks, that screwed it all up. Dan Onorato is the one who has half-enough brains to salvage it now today.

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