Lumberton
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AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:03 am

From Reuters (Canada):
http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/new...-AIRLINES-AIRCANADA-PILOTS-COL.XML

This is turning into quite a saga. What are the "other means" the pilots maintain can be used to resolve the issue? Anyone know?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:24 am

If you go back to the original thread on this; this issue had nothing to do with the cancellation of the order with Boeing.
The issue that caused the cancellation surrounded work rules and other conditions that the pilots and AC could not agree upon.
 
luisca
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:27 am

Not again. I think we are dommed to never see the 777 painted in AC colors. Heres an Idea, why not fire all pilots who dont want to agree to a unified list and replace them with new hires from the US, there are a lot of pilots in the US unemployed.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
robsawatsky
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:29 am

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 1):
If you go back to the original thread on this; this issue had nothing to do with the cancellation of the order with Boeing.

Actually, this issue had a significant impact on the vote by the AC pilots component of the union with respect to the proposed new aircraft. They were mad about the seniority issue and used the aircraft issues to vent. Not they were totally happen with the proposal, but it was recommended for a vot by membership from the negotiating team. Now the two issues are separated: Aircraft issues - binding arbitration; Seniority issues - mediation.

This is actually old news, the former CAI pilots said from day 1 of the mediation announcement that they saw no reason to re-open this, it has now been made official.
 
radarbeam
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:36 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 2):
Not again. I think we are dommed to never see the 777 painted in AC colors. Heres an Idea, why not fire all pilots who dont want to agree to a unified list and replace them with new hires from the US, there are a lot of pilots in the US unemployed.

Yeah get rid of those that don't ride on the bandwagon. I don't agree with the ex-canadian pilots yet suggesting to fire them is simply childish. Why should we hire pilots from the US? There's a lot of unemployed pilots here too. I don't see any US airline hiring Canadians...
 
luisca
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:04 am

Quoting Radarbeam (Reply 4):
Why should we hire pilots from the US? There's a lot of unemployed pilots here too. I don't see any US airline hiring Canadians...

I assumed that there were not that many unemployed Canadian pilots, becouse Canadian airlines seem to be doing rather well recently. Sorry if I offended you. Hire new Canadian pilots, and when your out of them, come to the US to get the remaining.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
cayman
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:05 am

Something is strange about this report.

I had understood from the original release that AC and the union had AGREED on binding arbitration in respect of the 777/787 order issues and had also agreed to mediation on the ongoing seniority issues old AC vs CP pilots.

Is this report now saying that the mediation in rleation to the seniority issues is off the rails or the agreed upon binding arbitration process with respect to the new wide bodies is off?

I try to stay objective as possible but if a disgruntled minority group can derail an airlines hugely important fleet renewal plans and jeopardize its busines model and future plans--this is an appalling example of how creeping Canadian socialism has permitted the Polit-Unions in Canada to wield WAY too much power.

How can anyone expect to do business in Soviet canuckistan?
 
sebring
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:18 am

Quoting CayMan (Reply 6):
Something is strange about this report.

I had understood from the original release that AC and the union had AGREED on binding arbitration in respect of the 777/787 order issues and had also agreed to mediation on the ongoing seniority issues old AC vs CP pilots.

Is this report now saying that the mediation in rleation to the seniority issues is off the rails or the agreed upon binding arbitration process with respect to the new wide bodies is off?

I try to stay objective as possible but if a disgruntled minority group can derail an airlines hugely important fleet renewal plans and jeopardize its busines model and future plans--this is an appalling example of how creeping Canadian socialism has permitted the Polit-Unions in Canada to wield WAY too much power.

How can anyone expect to do business in Soviet canuckistan?

You're only going to get a migraine trying to follow this blow by blow. Suffice it to say there is a union, and within that union there is a faction - with its own steering committee and budget - representing former Canadian Airlines employees, and an unofficial faction representing disgrunted Air Canada pilots who feel they were wronged in the merger process. The union has tended to side with the larger AC group, but there is no reconciling the different points of view on the seniority issue. The 777 issue is between the company and the union. The two factions within the union have no say on the issue, as the company and union have agreed to a process whereby any outstanding issues related to the Boeing buy will be sent to binding arbitration. The seniority dispute between the factions is following (or not following, depending on your POV) a different course and may or may not upset the status quo.
 
greasespot
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:08 am

?

Quoting CayMan (Reply 6):
How can anyone expect to do business in Soviet canuckistan?

And just how much did the US legacies Make last year? Oh right they LOST billions. Guess our system is mor aviation friendly...and they did not have to wipe out pensions to do it...

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
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longhauler
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:51 am

Let me clarify this:

With regard to the 777/787, there will be binding arbitration. This is a process when a proposal is voted down, as it was several months ago, as we all know. The result of this arbitration will set the working conditions, pay rates, and training concessions with regard to the introduction of this aircraft. Remember though, the existing pilot contract would allow the introduction of any new aircraft, and AC could have ordered any aircraft they wanted ... However, they wanted further concessions from the pilots, thus the arbitration.

In addition to the binding arbitration of the 777/787, AC has hired a mediator to look at a seniority award settled in 2003 between the AC pilots and the CP pilots. This seniority award, termed the "Keller Award" was "final and binding" in 2003. In no legal way can it be overturned or changed, unless both parties (AC and CP) agree. Even though the Keller award favoured the AC pilots with seniority, etc, it was the CP pilots that have been trying to put it behind them and will not start the process all over again, thus will not participate in the mediation. This was reiterated in a press release today.

Understand, that is the mediation only with regard to seniority issues. As far as the 777/787 arbitration goes, it is still planned, and the aircraft are still coming.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Lumberton
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:56 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 8):
And just how much did the US legacies Make last year? Oh right they LOST billions. Guess our system is mor aviation friendly...and they did not have to wipe out pensions to do it...

The poster is from Venezuela (per his profile). Wouldn't your vitriol be more appropriate directed towards an airline from that country?

Back on topic, I still can't figure out what the article is alluding to:

Quote:
"Former Canadian Airline Pilots maintain there are other means available in the collective agreement to resolve the Boeing purchase issue," the group said.

Can anyone out there decipher this?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Olympus69
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:20 am

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 9):
This seniority award, termed the "Keller Award" was "final and binding" in 2003. In no legal way can it be overturned or changed, unless both parties (AC and CP) agree. Even though the Keller award favoured the AC pilots

That's not the way I remember it. It's the Original AC pilots faction that opposed it on he grounds that it favoured the ex CAIL pilots because they had a higher proportion of senior pilots than the AC group. This would result in the bottom of the seniority list consisting mostly of AC pilots.
 
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longhauler
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:35 am

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 11):
That's not the way I remember it. It's the Original AC pilots faction that opposed it on he grounds that it favoured the ex CAIL pilots because they had a higher proportion of senior pilots than the AC group. This would result in the bottom of the seniority list consisting mostly of AC pilots.

Not so.

While I don't endorse this site, or any for that matter. If you look at this website, http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca and look at most of the statistics, you will see that the Keller Award clearly favours the ex AC pilots.

However, as I said before, the exCP pilots reject the seniority mediation, but this press release has NO bearing on the 777/787 arbitration, nor the order for new aircraft.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
greasespot
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:17 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 10):
The poster is from Venezuela (per his profile). Wouldn't your vitriol be more appropriate directed towards an airline from that country?

And i am willing to bet that Aircanada is more profitable than any airline in Venezuala.


The way people swap nationalities in here who knows...

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
cayman
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:33 pm

Leave the juvenile "my country's airline's more profitable than yours" jibberish for a forum of children. I didn't raise it, and hate to dignify it by responding, but I am indeed Canadian--not American, not Venezuelan---so leave your typical reactionary canadiana attitude in wanting to blame some other country out of this--it has nothing to do with that.

I am very pleased AC is profitable and hope it becomes more so.

My comment stands about creeping canadian socialism over the last decades creating monster unions and special interest groups which are out of control. To wit---most of the AC unions.
 
milan320
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:29 pm

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 8):
And just how much did the US legacies Make last year? Oh right they LOST billions. Guess our system is mor aviation friendly...and they did not have to wipe out pensions to do it...

Good one!
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I accept bribes ... :-)
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:29 pm

In Flight International today:
http://www.flightinternational.com/A...ilot+dispute+will+hurt+777787.html

AC seems to be doing the right thing... Perhaps what they've should have done all along... Separate the Boeing purchase plans and the Pilots Union issues. It's starting to look like the former Canadian Airlines pilots will never be satisfied with anything AC proposes. At that point, AC needs to do what's in it's best interests and tell those pilots to accept the mediated terms or find another job.

Regards,
Sal

[Edited 2005-10-13 15:32:35]
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
kiwiandrew

RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:43 pm

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 16):
In Flight International today:
http://www.flightinternational.com/A...ilot+dispute+will+hurt+777787.html

AC seems to be doing the right thing... Perhaps what they've should have done all along... Separate the Boeing purchase plans and the Pilots Union issues. It's starting to look like the former Canadian Airlines pilots will never be satisfied with anything AC proposes. At that point, AC needs to do what's in it's best interests and tell this pilots to accept the mediated terms or find another job.

Regards,
Sal

I think a lot of people seem to be forgetting that the reason the ex CP pilots are against re-opening this is that is was all settled with a supposedly legally binding agreement two years ago .(see below) - why should they be prepared to re-negotiate because one of the parties now doesn't want to accept the ruling that they all agreed back in 2003 would be binding . As far as I can see it is not the ex CP pilots who are in the wrong - it is some of their "original AC" colleagues who are trying to re-open a closed case .


http://www.canada.com/travel/story.h...839462-2d21-42d2-9642-a81ee23166ee

"In 2003, Air Canada management, original Air Canada pilots and former Canadian Airlines pilots all agreed that the pilot seniority award of arbitrator Brian Keller would be 'final and binding.' "

McInnis said the Teplitsky mediation process shows a "troubling disrespect for the law" that his group expects will be rejected by the Canadian Industrial Relations Board.
 
luisca
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:54 pm

Quoting CayMan (Reply 14):
My comment stands about creeping canadian socialism over the last decades creating monster unions and special interest groups which are out of control. To wit---most of the AC unions.

THANK you, great comment. Welcome to my RR list

The thruth is, that if this were any other country, especially any latin american or asian country, you either WORK with the company, or get fired. A lot of people out there would just love to have any pilot job, these guys have it and will do anything to get more and more power, even if it means running the airline to the ground.

Fire them all. heck ill fly for food.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
bmacleod
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:45 pm

Boeing like AC has had its share of labour trouble, notably the recent five week strike by its mechanics. And it's not over for Boeing yet as they still have to re-negotiate with their engineers for new contracts.

Boeing, NW, rocketing oil prices, also was it 5 or 6 airline crashes in the past two months?

2005 like 2001 will be a forgettable year for the airline industry.  worried 
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
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longhauler
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:49 pm

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 16):
It's starting to look like the former Canadian Airlines pilots will never be satisfied with anything AC proposes.

I think you have it the wrong way around.

The former Canadian Airlines pilots are quite satisfied with the present seniority list, as they want this whole process to end, even though they are the clear losers in that final and binding arbitration a few years ago.

It is the more junior former Air Canada pilots that "hijacked" the 777/787 vote a month ago, and made it a seniority issue. They are unhappy because for a short period of time, they became captains on the DC-9 and A320 after only 2 years!!!!! They think that is normal and should continue, and not just a blip in the system.

For the record, it tool me 16 years to become a captain, average for Air Canada. And I would hazard a guess that is true with most legacy carriers in the US.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:59 pm

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 20):
It is the more junior former Air Canada pilots that "hijacked" the 777/787 vote a month ago, and made it a seniority issue. They are unhappy because for a short period of time, they became captains on the DC-9 and A320 after only 2 years!!!!! They think that is normal and should continue, and not just a blip in the system.

For the record, it tool me 16 years to become a captain, average for Air Canada. And I would hazard a guess that is true with most legacy carriers in the US.

Thank you for responding Captain. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not privy to all the details of the negotiations with your Union. It's great that someone, like yourself, tells us, the public, your side of the story. I can only go on what I read in the media, and, to a lesser extent, here on a.net.
Having said that, viewing the bigger picture, wouldn't you agree that for everyone involved, wouldn't it make sense to "de-link" the Boeing purchase from the labor negotiations?
I believe that it's in everyone's interests... AC, the Pilots Union and your customers to go forward with what we all know is inevitable... Air Canada fleet renewal with the new Boeing 777s and 787s.
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
YYZYYT
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:34 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 18):
The thruth is, that if this were any other country, especially any latin american or asian country, you either WORK with the company, or get fired.

You say that as if you think it is a good thing...

You should be thankful you are not from one of those countries where you would be at the mercy of the "market" or employers or whomever, unless you happened to born rich and privileged.

I don't usually wade into this kind of post, but I personally am proud to live in "Soviet Canuckistan" where society is just a little more caring (this is for you as well, CayMan - you two can go a respect each other as far as I am concerned).

And (here is the aviation related part) I am glad that the people flying me and my family are professionals who are not subject to that kind of coercion: "do whatever the company tells you or you are fired" is a recipe for disaster, by way of corners cut, poorly trained pilots, etc..

YYZYYT

PS:
Luisca,
Should you get you commercial license when you grow up, I presume you will decline the wages negotiated by unions on your behalf? You will say "no thanks, I'll take whatever the company wants to pay, even minimum wage?
No wait, minimum wage is ALSO a product of socialism, I'll work for whatever you want!"
 
luisca
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:43 am

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 22):
Luisca,
Should you get you commercial license when you grow up, I presume you will decline the wages negotiated by unions on your behalf? You will say "no thanks, I'll take whatever the company wants to pay, even minimum wage?
No wait, minimum wage is ALSO a product of socialism, I'll work for whatever you want!"

Hey man, in the airline where I expect to start on (Copa) there are no unions!
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
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longhauler
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:52 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 21):
Having said that, viewing the bigger picture, wouldn't you agree that for everyone involved, wouldn't it make sense to "de-link" the Boeing purchase from the labor negotiations?

I agree completely, and truth be told, that is what is being done.

The 777/787 is a separate arbitration and will be completed shortly. But remember, there was never anything stopping Air Canada from ordering the 777/787 all along. They just wanted further concessions from the pilots, and did not wish to adhere to the existing contract.

The seniority mediation (not arbitration) will review the previous seniority award. But this award has been reviewed three further and separate times, and each time was deemed legal and fair. It appears this process will take quite a bit longer than the 777/787 issue, and is not related to it. Perhaps, the former Air Canada pilots will accept it this time.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Lumberton
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:22 am

LongHauler:
Thanks for clarifying this. Your post made this thing a lot easier to sort out. When you say "completed shortly", do you mean a few months or sometime next year?
Regards.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
YYZYYT
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:31 am

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 24):
Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 21):
Having said that, viewing the bigger picture, wouldn't you agree that for everyone involved, wouldn't it make sense to "de-link" the Boeing purchase from the labor negotiations?

I agree completely, and truth be told, that is what is being done.

The 777/787 is a separate arbitration and will be completed shortly. But remember, there was never anything stopping Air Canada from ordering the 777/787 all along. They just wanted further concessions from the pilots, and did not wish to adhere to the existing contract.

I am posting this based on my memory (no time to do a search) so someone correct me if I am wrong:

I believe that the union leadership endorsed the 777/787 proposal put to the membership... I also think I recall that the 777/787 result (i.e., the "highjacking" by the minority) was the result of a low turnout generally, combined with a high turn-out among the minority who voted as a block?

There may have been no mechanism for a re-vote, but it makes sense that the union leadership would want to move quickly to arbitrate, which will impose the solution without a vote.

While the minority may have scored a victory in highjacking the vote (with the unwitting assistance of management who made into an all or nothing proposition) they can not block this for too long if the union leadership (and presumably the majority of members) is looking to solve the 777/787 matter and de-link it from the seniority issue.

I confess I am generally partial to Airbus, but would still LOVE to see something worked out for AC and the 777/787.
 
hrhf1
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:51 am

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 22):
I am glad that the people flying me and my family are professionals who are not subject to that kind of coercion: "do whatever the company tells you or you are fired" is a recipe for disaster, by way of corners cut, poorly trained pilots, etc...

There's nothing like taking a scenario and extrapolating it to an illogical conclusion. Anybody who thinks Union's make operations run more efficiently and safely have their head WAY to far in the clouds. Apart from Union desires to hire 2 people one person's job, they are also not the arbiters of safety and caring. I would go so far as to say it is unions and their atmosphere of employees doing the least work for the most pay that can create dangerous safety issues. The "not my department" syndrome is hardly conducive to making sure the job is done right and on time. Thankfully airlines use redundant mechanical procedures to avoid trouble.


Unions are nothing more than the big business they seek to suck money out of. They want more members for the dues, thus more money in their coffers. As for Canada, you can believe your own altruistic mumbo-jumbo, but the fact remains large industry costs are soaring out of control in large part due to union greed. We have plenty of issues to work on here.
 
yhz78
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:55 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 16):
It's starting to look like the former Canadian Airlines pilots will never be satisfied with anything AC proposes.

I think that this situation goes both ways. AC is in a real bind because no matter what it does iot will have a large pilot group who is going to be very unhappy with the decision, and they do have the power to make life hell on the airline.
Canada Rocks! From the west coast to the best coast!
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:41 am

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 26):
I confess I am generally partial to Airbus, but would still LOVE to see something worked out for AC and the 777/787.

As an unabashed Boeing fan/stockholder, I'm in full agreement with you. ACs colors will look fabulous on both aircraft!
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
Olympus69
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:04 am

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 12):
While I don't endorse this site, or any for that matter. If you look at this website, http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca and look at most of the statistics, you will see that the Keller Award clearly favours the ex AC pilots.

I had always assumed that because the former Canadian pilots had accepted the award that it meant that they had gained seniority and that the AC pilots opposed it because they lost seniority. If what the former Canadian pilots' website says about the Keller Award is true I can't understand why the original AC pilots won't accept it.
 
ACdreamliner
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:06 am

Quoting Radarbeam (Reply 4):
suggesting to fire them is simply childish.

well... margeret thatcher did it with our miners. they never had a major strike again!
Where are you going?
 
lh477
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:35 am

Quoting CayMan (Reply 6):
How can anyone expect to do business in Soviet canuckistan?

This is being objective???? There are plenty of enterprises that do quiet well in soviet canuckistan!

Quoting CayMan (Reply 14):
My comment stands about creeping canadian socialism over the last decades creating monster unions and special interest groups which are out of control. To wit---most of the AC unions.

Creeping Canadian socialism????? Last time I checked, NDP fortunes haven't been great. And NDP by no means is a socialist party. Most believe Canada has actually moved towards the right economically.

Because Canada does not adapt US style capitalism does not make it a socialist country.

ACPA has a difficult situation on it's hand, but I don't believe that you can indict all of Canada based on a few unions in one company!

[Edited 2005-10-13 20:46:10]
Come on you gunners......!!!!!
 
ac7e7
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:05 am

Quoting LH477 (Reply 32):
Creeping Canadian socialism????? Last time I checked, NDP fortunes haven't been great. And NDP by no means is a socialist party.

Last time you checked? What year are you in? The NDP is enjoying a great deal of power through their little love-in with the Liberals. They forced the Liberals into removing corporate tax cuts and increase social spending by $4.9 billion. The NDP has not had this much power in years. They are keeping Martin's crooked party in power in exchange for more spending. They are enjoing a great deal more power then you believe.

Quoting LH477 (Reply 32):
Because Canada does not adapt US style capitalism does not make it a socialist country

Yeah, instead of "what you can do for your country", Canadians go by "what our country can do for us." We just can't seem to wean ourselves off from the nipple of the welfare state.

The unions in this country have become too powerful and governments and companies have become too weak when negotiating with them. ACE is going to be in for a rough ride when it comes time to re-negotiate the contracts in 2009.
 
bman351
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:10 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 10):
The poster is from Venezuela (per his profile). Wouldn't your vitriol be more appropriate directed towards an airline from that country?

And I am willing to bet that Aircanada is more profitable than any airline in Venezuala.


The way people swap nationalities in here who knows...

GS

...Who cares who is more profitable. The point is that Air Canada is once again having labour problems. Let's not generalize all of Canada to be socialists. It's just Air Canada. I don't see any other Canadian airlines to be having these problems. I agree with those that say they should get rid of the ones that continue to BS about everything and moved on. These issues are clearly restricting their plans to grow. Let's just get it over with, somehow.
 
dforce1
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:13 am

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 30):
http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca

If you're feeling politically active, there is a link on the website to send a petition.
 
lh477
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:13 am

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 33):
Last time you checked? What year are you in? The NDP is enjoying a great deal of power through their little love-in with the Liberals. They forced the Liberals into removing corporate tax cuts and increase social spending by $4.9 billion. The NDP has not had this much power in years. They are keeping Martin's crooked party in power in exchange for more spending. They are enjoing a great deal more power then you believe.

My phrasing was off, what I meant to say is that they haven't enjoyed great electorial success. As far as there power is concerned, that is the price of
minority government.

As far as the liberals are concerned, I would rather have them in power then
try my luck with the new Conservatives, and based on recent polls, Canadians in general seem to the same have attitude too. Seeing what's happening in the US makes my support for the Liberals even stronger!

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 33):
We just can't seem to wean ourselves off from the nipple of the welfare state.

Walfare state???Canada may spend money on social programs, but I don't think we are walfare state. Your perception maybe, but I think Canadian's in general have made it clear that they want there tax $$ spent on health care and education.
Come on you gunners......!!!!!
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:26 am

Quoting LH477 (Reply 36):
Seeing what's happening in the US makes my support for the Liberals even stronger!

I tried to stay out of this conversation, but the implication here is that something "bad" is going on here in the States. Personally, I think it sounds arrogant. We elected our leaders, whether you like them or not is irrelevant.
Some of us here in the States aren't too happy with your so-called progressive leaders either. How this thread went from the controversy over the AC Unions to a discussion of Left vs. Right escapes me.
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
lh477
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:47 am

Quoting USAF (Reply 37):
I tried to stay out of this conversation, but the implication here is that something "bad" is going on here in the States. Personally, I think it sounds arrogant. We elected our leaders, whether you like them or not is irrelevant.
Some of us here in the States aren't too happy with your SO-called progressive leaders either. How this thread went from the controversy over the AC Unions to a discussion of Left vs. Right escapes me.

You have every right to be not happy with our progressive leaders, I was making my concern felt that I did not want to my country to elect leaders who
would implement hard republican ideas into Canada. I'll like to think Canada is more progressive, and want to keep it as such.

On second thought, I should have not brought up the US in a Canadian political dialogue, for that I apologize. The US sometime gets unjustly vilified.

[Edited 2005-10-13 22:56:50]
Come on you gunners......!!!!!
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:51 am

Quoting LH477 (Reply 38):
The US sometime gets unjustly vilified.

That was a sincere response for which I'm grateful for. For whatever the differences the U.S. and Canada have, our relationship is the strongest in the world. Thank you!
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
lh477
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:55 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 39):
For whatever the differences the U.S. and Canada have, our relationship is the strongest in the world. Thank you!

Amen! And may it get stronger.......
Come on you gunners......!!!!!
 
ac7e7
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:12 am

Quoting LH477 (Reply 38):
On second thought, I should have not brought up the US in a Canadian political dialogue, for that I apologize. The US sometime gets unjustly vilified.

The Conservatives in Canada are to the left of Bill Clinton's democrats. Our two countries' political parties are not lined up the same. Canadian political parties, including the new Conservatives are still more centre-left then U.S. political parties, which are centre-right including the Dems.

Despite our difference in opinions, I applaud your above statement. There may be hope for us yet! Welcome to my respected users list.
 
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longhauler
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:34 am

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 30):
I had always assumed that because the former Canadian pilots had accepted the award that it meant that they had gained seniority and that the AC pilots opposed it because they lost seniority. If what the former Canadian pilots' website says about the Keller Award is true I can't understand why the original AC pilots won't accept it.

I think the reason why the ex Canadian pilots accept the Keller award, is some of them have been through FIVE airline mergers, and they feel "final and binding" is just that. Also, they also recognize that unless we put this behind us, it will never be good for the company. For the record, I am former Air Canada, but from a less vocal faction that also wants this behind us!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
robsawatsky
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Sat Oct 15, 2005 6:36 am

Quoting LH477 (Reply 38):
You have every right to be not happy with our progressive leaders, ... . I'll like to think Canada is more progressive, ....

"Progressive" all depends upon the point-of-view doesn't it?

Is it progressing left-ward or right-ward? Hey, it used to be the Progressive-Conservative Party (how's that for an oxymoron).

Anyway, all off topic, except for those that somehow think that Canadian labour laws are extremely favourable to unions in relative terms. They aren't that much different than US laws and are certainly less favourable than most European labour laws. You can't just dump the union in most US jurisdications either.

However, the CIRB should get this straightened out once and for all or put the union into trusteeship.
 
Skywatcher
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Sat Oct 15, 2005 8:02 am

I suspect that the management of AC is happy to have the pilots union hacking each other to pieces rather than focused together against management like in the bad old days.
The concept of pilots even being in a union in the first place boggles my mind.What group could have a more white collar perspective than pilots? It's the same as the pro sports players. What the????

On another matter, I find it ironic that in this land of pervasive comradeship (Canada), that AC just steamrolled over the unions and re-organized into a highly efficient juggarnaut compared to the legacy U.S. carriers. AC is actually growing and making money at the same time. Wow, who would have thought?

Finally, as much as I used to buy into the Bushite viewpoint, I can now see that history is going to soon turn the current administartion into incompetant boobs. It'll take a decade for whoever finally pushes them aside to clean up the fiscal fiasco that is now out of control. It's easy to spend a couple of trillion and make everybody feel happy about your agenda. Stopping the gusher and ultimately repaying it is way, way harder.

I apologize for my rant. I'm just trying to share my thoughts on the above issues for better or worse.
 
Lumberton
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Sat Oct 15, 2005 8:12 am

Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 44):
I'm just trying to share my thoughts on the above issues for better or worse.

Wonderful. Why can't you do it on the Non-Av forum? Lots of room to rant there.

[Edited 2005-10-15 01:28:02]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
sebring
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:20 pm

With regard to the Boeing purchase arbitration, I understand hearings are under way and the arbitrator's ruling is expected by the end of the month, after which AC and Boeing will sit down and set up a new timetable for deliveries. I was told today that Boeing is "desperate" to do this deal, mainly because of its size - there would be follow on orders later in the decade for more 787s than the number (18) announced in the spring. AC will not get 777s in 2006, but Boeing has promised to find AC backup 763 lift for 2006 expansion and pay for refurbishing AC's fleet of 763s as part of a finalized order.
 
airbusfanyyz
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:46 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 46):
the arbitrator's ruling is expected by the end of the month, after which AC and Boeing will sit down and set up a new timetable for deliveries

Excellent news! As a very loyal AC flier I am very happy to see progress here and also on the fleet refubishment program. Thanks for the update Sebring!

Cheers,
Kaz
 
lymanm
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:16 am

Any word on the winglets for the 767s?
buhh bye
 
sebring
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RE: AC Pilots Reject Mediation

Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:19 am

Quoting Lymanm (Reply 48):
Any word on the winglets for the 767s?

The winglet program has been analyzed for the likely fuel savings, and that is now being turned into a cost benefit analysis. Nothing more to report at present.