kaitak744
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Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:49 pm

There is a very strong possibility that SQ, AC, CX, and even Emirates will dump thier A340-500 and a340-600s in favor of the 777NG. So, if they do so, who will take those aircraft?

On the top of my head:

Virgin Atlantic and Lufthansa could take the A340-600s. The A340-500s could go to.....
 
centrair
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:02 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Thread starter):
777NG

Do you mean the 777-200LR?

AC was already looking to order the -200LR I believe but then their pilots got all huffy.
SQ looks like it might but we just have to wait and see.
CX seems fairly conservative. I think this is a wait and see too.
EK could go anyway it wants. They seem hard to predict.

Maybe some airline who wants an aircraft second hand to start some long-haul routes would pick up some old 340-500/600. But your call for VS and LH seem logical.
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N405MX
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:04 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Thread starter):
Virgin Atlantic and Lufthansa could take the A340-600s. The A340-500s could go to....

MX MX MX MX......maybe MX will take them (hope so)
Life is what happens when you have other plans.....
 
kaitak744
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:06 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 1):
Quoting Kaitak744 (Thread starter):
777NG

Do you mean the 777-200LR?

Well, yes. 777-300ER/-200LR is basicaly the 777NG. Same for the A340-500/600, which is the A340NG
 
MarshalN
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:09 pm

I doubt CX will be dumping them. While it might not be the best, the cost of getting new 777 and dumping the A340s might not be worth it. SQ will probably do it -- and those are likely to go to an existing user of the type. Who knows about EK or AC...
 
Boeing744
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:40 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 1):
AC was already looking to order the -200LR I believe but then their pilots got all huffy.

AC did order 777-200LR, 777-300ER and 787 but the pilots union voted them down and the order was canceled. I think there is still a possibility of them coming though.
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:04 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Thread starter):
There is a very strong possibility that SQ. . .

Will probably happen, though not for a few more years. Even if SQ chooses the 772LR this December, which they are widely expected to do, they probably won't be looking to dispose of their 5 A345's for another 3-4 years, once the -200LR fleet is operational.

Quoting Kaitak744 (Thread starter):
. . . AC . . .

OTOH, this will happen. Milton has already publicly stated that the 767, A330 and A340 fleets will be disposed of in favor of the 787 and 777. Though this order was quite visibly delayed (not cancelled, as no firm order was ever placed), there appears to be a framework in place now that will allow the airline and the pilots to come to an agreement. I would expect an order sometime in 1Q06.

Quoting Kaitak744 (Thread starter):
. . . CX . . .

This also will happen, in the sense that CX will probably not keep the 3 current A346's they are leasing from ILFC. What they replace them with is anybody's guess, and could well be more A346's (the -HGWs). The 773ER has apparently caught CX's interest, but it might be hard to convince this conservative airline to fly twins long-haul.

Quoting Kaitak744 (Thread starter):
. . . and even Emirates

I wouldn't hold your breath on EK dumping their A345 fleet. This airplane will probably stay in the EK fleet for years to come. However, there have been numerous suggestions (both from questionable and legitimate sources) that the A346 order is in trouble. With the 773ER now capable of doing what EK bought the A346 for, I would not be surprised to see the A346 deposits put toward the up-coming A350 order instead. OTOH, I also wouldn't be surprised to see EK take delivery of at least some of the A346's as well. It really could go either way.


As to where these aircraft will end up, I think you've already hit the top two candidates. VS and LH will certainly wind up with more of these birds, the only question will be from what source. I think you'll see some of them wind up on the sub-continent as well, and possibly in Latin America. I'll let you decide which particular airlines. . .  Wink


Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
rdwootty
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:04 pm

As SQ own a lot of Virgin there is a good possibility of fleet transfer if the Boeing is better?? but is it???
 
sq212
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:40 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Thread starter):
Virgin Atlantic and Lufthansa could take the A340-600s. The A340-500s could go to.....

IB, TG and perhaps a couple Indian Airlines could take them. I don't think CX and MU are strong candidates going for more of those. If Boeing will launch the 747ADV and price is competitive with A340-600. I would think a great many will go for 747ADV. My opinion only.

Cheers
 
Sam the Lab
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:29 pm

Would the A340-500s if not the A340-600s get to Los Angeles off the present runway 10/28 at Dublin and how far to the east could a -500 go?

Because of the relatively short runway at Dublin guess we could always have an eastbound snn stopover!

Only joking!
 
fuffla
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:30 pm

I wish TG would make up their mind between the A340 and T7. They should have gone one way or another. But, they might take in a couple of A345's, if they could find routes for them. (There are plenty of routes out there, but they just cannot seem to make up their mind with anything, ie: JNB)
 
RedChili
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:40 pm

Quoting Rdwootty (Reply 7):
As SQ own a lot of Virgin there is a good possibility of fleet transfer if the Boeing is better?? but is it???

I don't see any reason why VS should get the five A345s that SQ has. VS doesn't need this type in their fleet.

Quoting Fuffla (Reply 10):
I wish TG would make up their mind between the A340 and T7.

Agreed. After they get rid of their MD-11s, the TG widebody fleet will look like this: B743, B744, B772, B772ER, B773, A300, A333, A345, A346. And soon they will get the A380!
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
Thorben
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:13 pm

EK will not phase out their A345s, I have already explained why in another thread.

SQ? Buying five new 772LRs for a billion dollar after just have bought 773ERs for 3.6 billion? Do they have money-sh..t..ng donkeys somewhere? They need to replace the 744s and older 772s first.

AC? With what do they want to replace all the A333s, A343s, and A345s with? Hot air? As long as they don't have ordered anything, they won't replace anything.

CX? Interesting that a 773A customer operates A346. They have the old model with the heavy wings and they only leased them, so they might be tempted to give theirs away, if Boeing sells them 773ERs for an apple and an egg. But they would have to replace their 744s first.

By the way, a 744 uses around 4 liters per pas per 100km, the A346 only 3.6 liters. So why would anyone replace an A346 and keep a 744?? Makes no sense.

TG is another 773A customer that went for the A346 and A345. I don't remember when exactly they ordered them, was it before Boeing had launched the 772LR and the 773ER??? Anyway, they have an interesting fleet mix, reminds me of LTU, when they had Lockheed, Douglas, Boeing and Airbus at the same time. I think TG will kick out the MD-11, the 743 and eventually the 744.

IIRC there is nowhere a A340 or A330 standing in some desert. As long as there are 747classic, MD-11s, and even worse planes flying around, these new Airbusses will find a place, especially if Boeing buys them from airlines and sells them for half the price of a new one. But as I stated above, who will dump them? That's the dream of some over-excited Boeing fans.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
RedChili
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:37 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 12):
TG is another 773A customer that went for the A346 and A345. I don't remember when exactly they ordered them, was it before Boeing had launched the 772LR and the 773ER???

I think Thai ordered the A345 and A346 in 2003 or 2004, so it was after the 773ER was in service already, and while the 772LR was being developed. So there's no risk that TG will dump them.
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
klmcedric
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:46 pm

So who will take the dumped 744's of airlines wishing to replace them with
A-380's, and oh wait even better, who do you think in 6 or 7 years from
know might take the dumped 772ER's replaced by A-350???
This is a typical question by a Airbus hater(it's not a boeing fan,cos I'm one
too but I don't bash airbus) who needs validation from other members that
Boeing is the supreme planemaker and that airbus,well, sucks...
Congratulations.
 
na
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:11 pm

Hmmm, bad topic title, as if that´s anything that will happen soon.
You could also ask who´ll take all the dumped 777As and 773s once Emirates has taken its 773ERs and A346s and A380s ordered? Or who´ll take the vast fleets of 767/777 once Delta goes really bust.
This your topic ist just written to create another A vs.B battle.
 
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Jetlagged
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:47 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 3):
Well, yes. 777-300ER/-200LR is basicaly the 777NG. Same for the A340-500/600, which is the A340NG

Not according to Boeing or Airbus. Making up your own designations is just confusing.

The 737NG was so called when launched to emphasise the redesign of what was a very old airframe. That doesn't really apply to the 777 or the A340, yet.
The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
 
manni
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:39 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Thread starter):
who will take those aircraft?

The A340-500 will go to...
Eva Air and PIA to replace their yet to be delivered 777-200LR aircraft, and Qantas to compliment the fleet of their yet to be ordered A340-500 aircraft  Yeah sure Not?
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Glasgow
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:52 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Thread starter):
So, if they do so, who will take those aircraft?

A step up the ladder for FR ?!
 
klmcedric
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:58 pm

SN might take some to complement their A-380 order , to fly the thinner routes! crazy 
 
Thorben
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:14 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 13):
I think Thai ordered the A345 and A346 in 2003 or 2004, so it was after the 773ER was in service already, and while the 772LR was being developed. So there's no risk that TG will dump them.

So the question remains: Why didn't they order T7s, if those are sooooo superior?? It's not like LH, VS, or SA, who need Airbus for fleet commonality, TG has 772s and 773s.


Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 14):
This is a typical question by a Airbus hater(it's not a boeing fan,cos I'm one
too but I don't bash airbus) who needs validation from other members that
Boeing is the supreme planemaker and that airbus,well, sucks...



Quoting Solnabo (Reply 15):
Is this another pathetic attempt to start a flamewar.....again????



Quoting NA (Reply 16):
Hmmm, bad topic title, as if that´s anything that will happen soon.
You could also ask who´ll take all the dumped 777As and 773s once Emirates has taken its 773ERs and A346s and A380s ordered? Or who´ll take the vast fleets of 767/777 once Delta goes really bust.
This your topic ist just written to create another A vs.B battle.

I agree, it's just about starting another A vs. B.

Quoting FLYtoEGCC (Reply 17):
Rumours are abound that bmibaby might be about to receive some A340-600s to launch a 10x-daily high-capacity service between Newquay and Norwich, and may also take a few -500s to launch a non-stop flagship service from Inverness to Honolulu.

Great!  rotfl  How about some A380, then?

Quoting Manni (Reply 19):
The A340-500 will go to...
Eva Air and PIA to replace their yet to be delivered 777-200LR aircraft, and Qantas to compliment the fleet of their yet to be ordered A340-500 aircraft Not?

QF? Why not?

Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 21):
SN might take some to complement their A-380 order , to fly the thinner routes!

Like BRU-THF? I'd love to see an A346 at THF.  smile 
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
FBU 4EVER!
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:52 pm

SAS (SK) did in fact inquire about leasing a 346 from LH last year.SAS needs more capacity on the CPH-NRT route.They can only have one daily slot at NRT,so extra capacity has to come with bigger planes.But LH needs all the 346's they have.Other than that,there is no immediate need for 346's in SAS.But with plans for a non-stop CPH-SIN flight in the future,maybe the A345 would be a good choice?
"Luck and superstition wins all the time"!
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:59 pm

Quoting FBU 4EVER! (Reply 23):
SAS (SK) did in fact inquire about leasing a 346 from LH last year.SAS needs more capacity on the CPH-NRT route.They can only have one daily slot at NRT,so extra capacity has to come with bigger planes.But LH needs all the 346's they have.Other than that,there is no immediate need for 346's in SAS.But with plans for a non-stop CPH-SIN flight in the future,maybe the A345 would be a good choice?

Thats a good shout actually.

I'd say thats the most intelligent idea ive hear for a while.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
persotvik
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:07 pm

Hey!!

We need another aircraft manufacturer!!!
It's a shame that MDD didn't make it!!
So many lovely advanced MD11 ER's around and not to mention the MD12.
Half the life is dreaming......

Quoting Thorben (Reply 12):
IIRC there is nowhere a A340 or A330 standing in some desert. As long as there are 747classic, MD-11s, and even worse planes flying around, these new Airbusses will find a place, especially if Boeing buys them from airlines and sells them for half the price of a new one. But as I stated above, who will dump them? That's the dream of some over-excited Boeing fans.

Terrible statement! Even worse planes you said. Are you an aviation enthusiast ? is my question for you!

It's remarkable that the B747 Classic is still flying around! What a great design!
And the MD11 is fantastic too, have been flying revenue service for 15 years now and will still fly many many years as freighters for many operators. As well as pax flying for RG, KL and AY well beyond 2010. That's over 20 years of good reliable service.
Just love flying
 
MarshalN
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:17 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 12):
By the way, a 744 uses around 4 liters per pas per 100km, the A346 only 3.6 liters. So why would anyone replace an A346 and keep a 744?? Makes no sense.

Size? Capacity? The fact that you can pack more cargo and more pax into flights that are always full anyway? If you are only going to be able to fly twice a day (long haul time restrictions -- there aren't so many logical times to fly) then 744 isn't a bad choice if you can pack the whole thing.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:25 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 12):
SQ? Buying five new 772LRs for a billion dollar after just have bought 773ERs for 3.6 billion? Do they have money-sh..t..ng donkeys somewhere? They need to replace the 744s and older 772s first.

SQ puts their planes at a much quicker depreciation rate than the industry, in a few more years, their A345's will depreciate enough were they would be able to get rid of them if they want...and with SQ being the largest 777 operator in the world, I wouldn't be surprised to see SQ pick some B777-200LR's up..


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Quoting Thorben (Reply 12):
AC? With what do they want to replace all the A333s, A343s, and A345s with? Hot air? As long as they don't have ordered anything, they won't replace anything.

as stated previously, Milton basically wants to get rid of all his long-haul Airbus fleet.
"Up the Irons!"
 
legendDC9
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:27 pm

How did the 345/346's fall from grace so fast? They were the hottest thing in the air less than 3 years ago when SQ announced the LAX-SIN and JFK-SIN and EK followed up with JFK-DBX. Is the 772ER such a superior product, and/or, was this a complete airbus miscalculation not introducing a twin engine competitor sooner?
 
zvezda
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:28 pm

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 6):
Even if SQ chooses the 772LR this December, which they are widely expected to do, they probably won't be looking to dispose of their 5 A345's for another 3-4 years, once the -200LR fleet is operational.

Agreed. My guess is that SQ will order 10 B777-200LRs and that the A340-500s will be retired from the fleet as the 6th through 10th B777-200LRs enter service. I think the A340-500 will be flying in SQ colours for at least three more years.

OTOH, if the rumoured weight savings under development to enable the B777-200LR to fly SYD-LHR were to be applied to the B777-300ER, then the latter could fly SFO/LAX-SIN nonstop. SQ would probably prefer to fly the B777-300ER than the B777-200LR on the SFO and LAX nonstops if possible. That would reduce SQ's demand for B777-200LRs. We'll have to wait and see.
 
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airzim
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:29 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 22):
Quoting RedChili (Reply 13):
I think Thai ordered the A345 and A346 in 2003 or 2004, so it was after the 773ER was in service already, and while the 772LR was being developed. So there's no risk that TG will dump them.

So the question remains: Why didn't they order T7s, if those are sooooo superior?? It's not like LH, VS, or SA, who need Airbus for fleet commonality, TG has 772s and 773s.

Because TG has had issues with ETOPs certification. Hence they had no choice but to go for a 3/4 engine aircraft.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:29 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if TAM leasing some temporarily until the A350s arrive.

But I wouldn't put my money on it either...

Cheers
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
motif1
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:34 pm

Does anyone know if the A340 program is profitable? Airbus have not sold many planes especially from the A345/346 model. What is their break-even point?

Motif1
Not only is this incomprehensible but the ink is ugly and the paper is from the wrong kind of tree
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:52 pm

Quoting LegendDC9 (Reply 28):
How did the 345/346's fall from grace so fast? They were the hottest thing in the air less than 3 years ago when SQ announced the LAX-SIN and JFK-SIN and EK followed up with JFK-DBX. Is the 772ER such a superior product, and/or, was this a complete airbus miscalculation not introducing a twin engine competitor sooner?

LOL just because a lot of Pro-Boeing A-netters say the A340NG is a heap of junk and all the current users are going to drop it for the relevant Boeing counterpart doesnt mean it will happen.

Make your own mind up mate - dont listen to people wishing their days away on here.

Look at the facts and wait and see - you may find that the A340NG is not the heap of junk that everyone says it is. Then again, who knows? Thats the problem with this site - nobody DOES know. A lot of people think they do, trust me, the number of people who ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT are very, very small on here. I'm talking single figures here.

My advice: See what the airlines do and then take your own conclusions - i'd advise against listening to the people on here.

I dont have that luxury i'm afraid - i have to hypothesise and analyse airlines for my job, and as far as i'm concerned...

...Reports of the death of the A340NG are somewhat exaggerated.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
ikramerica
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:53 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 12):
A345s

What a biased post. Thanks.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 13):
so it was after the 773ER was in service already

bad math. if order was in 2003, 773ER was still in testing and slots not available for nearly 2 years. 346 was available right away.

Quoting NA (Reply 16):
You could also ask who´ll take all the dumped 777As and 773s once Emirates has taken its 773ERs and A346s and A380s ordered?

Sure you could. I don't think the poster was being biased in his question, just asking a legitimate question about these aircraft.

I think SAA could also take some 346, as long as they have the right engines.

As for the 773, not sure what EK would do, as they have lots of routes where the standard 773 is fine in a two class, high density config.

Quoting NA (Reply 16):
Or who´ll take the vast fleets of 767/777 once Delta goes really bust.

I like how you rolled the 767 into the fleet to make it seem like DL has a vast fleet of 777s, not the tiny number they actually have... 8. With 5 on deferred order. Pretty vast.  Wink

As for the 767s, well the old ones are going to heaven. The newer ones have tons of airlines who could use them, both first tier carriers, LCC types, and charters. CO could take the 764GEs, they fly both 763ER in PW and GE form, so there is plenty of opportunity to place some of those (Hawaiian could take a few, even CO could take some GEs if they wanted to work out some kind of deal where Boeing provides them these planes (on buyback) then over time CO replaces them with 788s beyond their order of 10).

But I don't think DL is going anywhere, though they may shrink in size.

Quoting Manni (Reply 19):
PIA to replace their yet to be delivered 777-200LR aircraft

PIA owns 1 and 2, and they are flying and will be delivered. As configured, they serve anywhere PIA want to fly. Whether any other 772LRs are delivered as designed is up in the air. I am guessing that the only two "base" 772LRs to be delivered will be the PIA 2, at a discount, and the rest will be "772ULR" with a bit more range and 115 engines. But that's my take only.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 22):
So the question remains: Why didn't they order T7s, if those are sooooo superior??

See above. Not available, maybe not priced right as well, and because not everyone believes "hype" and then feel a little sheepish when the "hype" turns out to be "rational enthusiasm." Can't blame them for choose the 340 series, but that doesn't mean ultimately it isn't inferior.

Quoting Persotvik (Reply 25):
And the MD11 is fantastic too, have been flying revenue service for 15 years now

Just saw a World MD11 "SoAir" or something like that taking off from IAH yesterday. Still a wonderful plane.

Quoting LegendDC9 (Reply 28):
They were the hottest thing in the air less than 3 years ago

Correction. They were the only option in the size and range 3 years ago. And they never sold like hotcakes, not in the real world we live in.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 29):
OTOH, if the rumoured weight savings under development to enable the B777-200LR to fly SYD-LHR were to be applied to the B777-300ER, then the latter could fly SFO/LAX-SIN nonstop.

I don't think it would make that kind of range with a big enough revenue payload. It's not just "weight savings" of the interior fittings, but additional fuel, higher rated engine, and increased MTOW for the 772LR. But 773ER already has the higher MTOW and engines, so adding fuel will require decreased payload.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
NYC777
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:09 pm

Because international long haul flying is coming back in a strong way, it won't be a problem to place the A340-500/600 even though they're inferior compared to similar Boeing products (777-200LR/300ER).  stirthepot 
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
Johnny
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:07 am

Strange Topic..!

The question is not which airline will get the dumped A345/346´s.The question is: Will they really been dumped?!?

SQ : rumoured for a too long time now...
AC : depends on the pilot contract and the investors as well
Ek : do not think so.they will ops the A345 and A346 side by side for a long time to come

CX : i think they would go to Boeing,if Boeing would not have done the big mistake with the exclusive GE 90-Deal.Lots of other airlines as well.Airbus has done the same mistake on the A345/346.Air France often said they would buy the A346 with GE-Engines due to their long relationship.

I could see lots of follow-on orders from existing operators SA,LH,VS,IB,TG and CX as well.

Also i see follow-on orders from some existing A343-Operators, e.g. SWR,LAN &THY

And additonally combined future A350/345 or A350/346-Orders from other airlines.Why? Simple answer: Use the A350 where-ever it is possible without big ETOPS-Limits and use the quads on the remaining routes.
 
astuteman
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:25 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 34):
I don't think the poster was being biased in his question, just asking a legitimate question about these aircraft.

I think it's the word "dumped" that some people might question........
 
WINGS
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:30 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 34):
I think SAA could also take some 346, as long as they have the right engines.

Well its going to be hard to choose from any other engine type. Both the A340-500 and A340-600 only come with Trent500 engines.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:51 am

EK recently completed financing of their tenth A345 and they did indeed only order 773ER (I thought they also had some 772LRs), so they seem to be happy with the A345 for the time being. As to the status of the A346HGW order, I cannot say.

I still believe SQ will choose the 772LR to replace their A345s, if for no other reasons then fleet commonality with the rest of their 777 fleet and the fact they can fly more people and cargo with the 777 then the "boutique" config they have to use with the A345. But since the A345 is only on two routes - SIN-EWR/JFK, there is no immediate need for them to do so. SQ may very well be deciding where else they can use a 772LR so they can place a bigger order, receive better discounts, and have better fleet utilization. They do have A380s coming, so that will free up some 744s for other uses - possibly converted freighters (along with all the other passenger 744s that may no longer be needed once airlines start taking A380 deliveries).

As for AC, it looks like the Boeing order is a go, so AC will slowly be phasing out their A340s for 777s. But that process will probably be over a few years.
 
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hotelbravo
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:56 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 13):
But as I stated above, who will dump them? That's the dream of some over-excited Boeing fans.

I agree. I would even add this: perhaps the 772LR's range is actually TOO LONG, hence the small number of orders so far. When it comes down to it, the amount of traffic in the ultra long haul market is just a tiny fraction of the long haul market, which is essentially centered around the 6000-12000 km range.
 stirthepot 

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 26):
Size? Capacity? The fact that you can pack more cargo and more pax into flights that are always full anyway? If you are only going to be able to fly twice a day (long haul time restrictions -- there aren't so many logical times to fly) then 744 isn't a bad choice if you can pack the whole thing.

IIRC, the 346 can fit a lot more cargo than the 744.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:02 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 37):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 34):
I don't think the poster was being biased in his question, just asking a legitimate question about these aircraft.

I think it's the word "dumped" that some people might question........

I concur-"dumped" is loaded with pejoratives....

if A340s end up in storage it will be because they do not meet the financial needs of the operators, or they have outlived their usefulness....meaning they have earned an honorable retirement in a place where a lot of old folks go because they like the warm weather...

the A340 has only been around twelve years or so, Thorben.....give it time.

To paraphrase a friend of mine's observation about helicopters,

"There's only two kinds of airplanes: those that are in the desert and those that will be in the desert."
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:11 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 34):
I don't think it would make that kind of range with a big enough revenue payload. It's not just "weight savings" of the interior fittings, but additional fuel, higher rated engine, and increased MTOW for the 772LR. But 773ER already has the higher MTOW and engines, so adding fuel will require decreased payload.

For the B777-300ER (at present OEW) to make SFO/LAX-SIN, it needs to carry a full fuel load and (when weather is bad) a payload that is too small to be profitable. By lightening the OEW, say, 10,000 lbs., that's an additional 10,000 lbs. of payload that can be carried which, I believe, would make the operation profitable.
 
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:17 am

Quoting Persotvik (Reply 25):
Terrible statement! Even worse planes you said. Are you an aviation enthusiast ? is my question for you!

I meant worse concerning the economics.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 27):
in a few more years, their A345's will depreciate enough were they would be able to get rid of them if they want

In a few more years their older planes will be even older.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 27):
as stated previously, Milton basically wants to get rid of all his long-haul Airbus fleet.

Good for those that will buy them. But anyway, wanting and doing are different things.

Quoting Airzim (Reply 30):
Because TG has had issues with ETOPs certification. Hence they had no choice but to go for a 3/4 engine aircraft.

Which routes do you mean?

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 33):

I Couldn't have said that better.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 34):
What a biased post. Thanks.

You're welcome.  sarcastic 

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 34):
bad math. if order was in 2003, 773ER was still in testing and slots not available for nearly 2 years. 346 was available right away.

Great statement. When did TG get their first A346?????? 29.06.2005!! Or for the friends with the "inferior" way of giving a date: 06/29/05. Applying bad math, I say that was around two years past the order. Stop lying into your own pocket!

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 34):
Can't blame them for choose the 340 series, but that doesn't mean ultimately it isn't inferior.

If an airline with 772s and 773s orders them instead of the Boeings, they must be more than inferior. Super-inferior I'd call it. Worse (concerning economics) than an Il-86, I suppose.

Quoting Hotelbravo (Reply 40):
I agree. I would even add this: perhaps the 772LR's range is actually TOO LONG, hence the small number of orders so far. When it comes down to it, the amount of traffic in the ultra long haul market is just a tiny fraction of the long haul market, which is essentially centered around the 6000-12000 km range.

That's it, the difference between the 200LR and the 200ER is only the range, while the A345 is somewhat bigger than the A343, and might be used on A343 routes to increase capacity.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
3201
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:17 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 12):
By the way, a 744 uses around 4 liters per pas per 100km, the A346 only 3.6 liters. So why would anyone replace an A346 and keep a 744??



Quoting FBU 4EVER! (Reply 23):
SAS needs more capacity on the CPH-NRT route.They can only have one daily slot at NRT,so extra capacity has to come with bigger planes
7 hours aint long-haul
 
JetMaster
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:22 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 43):
If an airline with 772s and 773s orders them instead of the Boeings, they must be more than inferior. Super-inferior I'd call it. Worse (concerning economics) than an Il-86, I suppose.

Are you joking? I hope so...


Regards,
JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
Dougloid
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:33 am

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 45):
e you joking? I hope so...

B.b.but Ah never inhaled!

B.b.but Ah never had sex with that woman Miss Lewinsky!
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jacobin777
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:43 am

Quoting LegendDC9 (Reply 28):
how did the 345/346's fall from grace so fast? They were the hottest thing in the air less than 3 years ago when SQ announced the LAX-SIN and JFK-SIN and EK followed up with JFK-DBX. Is the 772ER such a superior product, and/or, was this a complete airbus miscalculation not introducing a twin engine competitor sooner?

I think part of the reason is that Boeing's sales team has become much more aggressive and flexible with selling of their products. There isn't as much rigidity now as there was when Phil Condit was at the helm.....the problem for carriers (even mentioned by the SAA .pdf file mentioned in another thread), the economics of the 777 was better than that of the A340, but that the A340 had a substantial lower initial cost than that of the 777's......but that advantage has gone down quite a bit now...I think to the point where air carriers are seeing that even thought the up front cost of the 777 is still higher, the money saved over a period of time is substantial (which was what Milton of AC was saying when he had placed the order for the 777/787)

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 33):
Thats the problem with this site - nobody DOES know. A



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 33):
My advice: See what the airlines do and then take your own conclusions - i'd advise against listening to the people on here.

wrong..people do know..and I've been saying to "look at the order books for 2005".....its not even close, the 777 sales are CRUSHING the 340 sales!

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 33):
...Reports of the death of the A340NG are somewhat exaggerated.

no..but its on life support!

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 34):
PIA owns 1 and 2, and they are flying and will be delivered. As configured, they serve anywhere PIA want to fly.

I've been in constant contact with PK, their -200LR flight is IAH-ISB, but they don't know when the flight starts..they are still scheduled to receive their birds in January...i'm trying to get on that first flight  biggrin 

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 35):
Because international long haul flying is coming back in a strong way, it won't be a problem to place the A340-500/600 even though they're inferior compared to similar Boeing products (777-200LR/300ER).

couldn't agree more.. thumbsup 

Quoting Stitch (Reply 39):
I still believe SQ will choose the 772LR to replace their A345s, if for no other reasons then fleet commonality with the rest of their 777 fleet and the fact they can fly more people and cargo with the 777 then the "boutique" config they have to use with the A345



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 27):
.and with SQ being the largest 777 operator in the world, I wouldn't be surprised to see SQ pick some B777-200LR's up..

 yes 

Quoting Hotelbravo (Reply 40):
I agree. I would even add this: perhaps the 772LR's range is actually TOO LONG, hence the small number of orders so far. When it comes down to it, the amount of traffic in the ultra long haul market is just a tiny fraction of the long haul market, which is essentially centered around the 6000-12000 km range.

don't forget, the 777F is based on the -200LR, and if the -200LR performs up to specs, look for Boeing to get more orders!

Quoting Thorben (Reply 43):
Good for those that will buy them. But anyway, wanting and doing are different things.

grasping for straws there??

Quoting Thorben (Reply 43):
In a few more years their older planes will be even older.

and your point is?  confused 

Quoting Thorben (Reply 43):
That's it, the difference between the 200LR and the 200ER is only the range, while the A345 is somewhat bigger than the A343, and might be used on A343 routes to increase capacity.

WRONG! The 777-200ER beats the A345 in terms of cargo also! Widebodyphotog has done extensive charts on this..and I'm not going to bother to find it just to prove you wrong..
"Up the Irons!"
 
ikramerica
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:02 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 36):
I could see lots of follow-on orders from existing operators SA,LH,VS,IB,TG and CX as well.

"Lots" is a big number. I'd say some. But most will go with the 358/359 instead, if they want to keep crew and capacity commonality but increase efficiency (though obviously the 346 is much bigger). I think the 350 series effectively destroys much of the "built-in" follow on market for the 340 series except the 346. 342/3 is redundant, 345 not as capable as the 358 and in the real world would hold the same pax count.

The 330 series, with shorter range, greater efficiency and lower price than the 340 series, will still sell well.

Wow, that's a lot of "ll" words in a row!

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 37):
I think it's the word "dumped" that some people might question........

True. But if someone is taking them, they are "dumped." I think it was the way he said there was a "strong possibility" which for some isn't true. Fact is, there is a "strong possibility" that after the fleet of 772LRs that they may order come online, the 345s would be retired from the fleets. It's not exactly dumping, but it's pre-mature retirement.

he just wanted to know who would take them. In other words, for many carriers, these planes would be a good fit!

Quoting WINGS (Reply 38):
Well its going to be hard to choose from any other engine type. Both the A340-500 and A340-600 only come with Trent500 engines.

Then that answers that question. SAA could take some 346s.

Quoting Hotelbravo (Reply 40):
perhaps the 772LR's range is actually TOO LONG

Not really. Fully laden, the range is fantastic. It could carry a buttload of heavy cargo on routes that are now restricted with other craft. OR, it could fly much further with the same kind of payloads that are flown on shorter long routes now.

I think the PRICE is the thing that is really hurting sales, and the "for that money, we want proof" thinking, which is happening now. I don't blame them for waiting and seeing and demand even more. After all, it's the most expensive plane Boeing sells!

Quoting Hotelbravo (Reply 40):
IIRC, the 346 can fit a lot more cargo than the 744.

I think it can take more volume, but not more weight, the same distance. Someone can correct me on this.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 42):
By lightening the OEW, say, 10,000 lbs., that's an additional 10,000 lbs. of payload that can be carried which, I believe, would make the operation profitable.

I don't think they can really take 5 tons out of the interior fittings of the aircraft. No other "weight reduction" is being done to increase the range of the 772LR, AFAIK.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 43):
Great statement. When did TG get their first A346?????? 29.06.2005!! Or for the friends with the "inferior" way of giving a date: 06/29/05. Applying bad math, I say that was around two years past the order. Stop lying into your own pocket!

Grow up.

TG wasn't going to get a 773ER in June of 2005 ordering them in 2003/2004. They'd be getting the first one POSSIBLY now. They weren't a launch customer. The 346 was available, and the 773ER had yet to prove at the time of order it's superiority! It took the testing period and the first year in service for the 773ER to demonstrate how good it was, this was not only after TG ordered, but after they took delivery of 346s!!

Oh, but I guess I'm biased by relating a timeline to the facts.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
flyinghippo
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:15 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 43):
Great statement. When did TG get their first A346?????? 29.06.2005!! Or for the friends with the "inferior" way of giving a date: 06/29/05. Applying bad math, I say that was around two years past the order. Stop lying into your own pocket!

Although I'm not sure when did TG ordered the A346, I'm sure they didn't order them on 29.6.2005 (or 6/29/2005 or 2005/6/29). The question is, when TG ORDERED the A346, was 773ER available or was 773ER still in testing where the numbers are still a big unknown?

And.... Why is your way of dating dates better? Do you have a problem with other people's culture of writing dates?
 
Thorben
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:43 am

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 45):
Quoting Thorben (Reply 43):
If an airline with 772s and 773s orders them instead of the Boeings, they must be more than inferior. Super-inferior I'd call it. Worse (concerning economics) than an Il-86, I suppose.

Are you joking? I hope so...

Of course.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 47):
Quoting Thorben (Reply 43):
Good for those that will buy them. But anyway, wanting and doing are different things.

grasping for straws there??

Let's see what they say to the A350.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 47):
Quoting Thorben (Reply 43):
In a few more years their older planes will be even older.

and your point is?

That they need to replace other aircraft first.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 47):
WRONG! The 777-200ER beats the A345 in terms of cargo also! Widebodyphotog has done extensive charts on this..and I'm not going to bother to find it just to prove you wrong..

OK, but you might read what I wrote before posting BS.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 48):
Grow up.

Next year.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 48):
TG wasn't going to get a 773ER in June of 2005 ordering them in 2003/2004. They'd be getting the first one POSSIBLY now. They weren't a launch customer. The 346 was available, and the 773ER had yet to prove at the time of order it's superiority! It took the testing period and the first year in service for the 773ER to demonstrate how good it was, this was not only after TG ordered, but after they took delivery of 346s!!

If the 773ER was such a great plane, then they could have waited for it.

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 49):
And.... Why is your way of dating dates better? Do you have a problem with other people's culture of writing dates?

No, I changed it to your way, so you could understand it, too.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
whitehatter
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RE: Who Will Take The Dumped A340-500/600s?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:21 am

If SQ does anything with their A345, it will be to expand services and increase pilot training ahead of the A380 rollout. Cockpit commonality is considerable as both are standard Airbus types with sidestick.

Beyond that, if they do decide to order the 772LR then any surplus aircraft can be cascaded into SALE for leasing onwards.

CX also signed a longterm agreement with Rolls recently for Trent support which might be an indication of their thoughts. I would expect to see them renew the ILFC lease and even take some additional examples.

The AC aircraft will stay around as they have yet to do any deal with Boeing, and even if they do then there is a long period of rollout. The 787 is by no means a finished article and could yet have major EIS problems, and the 772LR has yet to earn a single dollar in revenue. Their Airbus longhaulers will be around for years to come. There are plenty of clapped-out 767s to replace first.

EK is aggressively expanding so don't look at them selling anything beyond older A332 aircraft in the short term.

In short, no story.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...