Simong
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AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:19 am

Just returned from a roundtrip to YVR from YYZ on AC B767-300's Tail numbers #681 and #646. I wanted to get the opinion/comments of a few of the AC employees here on the condition of the interiors of these A/C. I have always thought of AC as a professional Int'l carrier who offer a good product but had to comment on what I saw / experienced / overheard on these flights. I mean this as constructive and hope that someone can give some feedback in the right direction at AC before their reputation starts to really falter.
1. The lavatory doors on both these A/C had black magic marker hand written *Push Here to Open* signs on them. This looks so tacky and unprofessional and many passengers around me were commenting on how they had never seen this before. How much can it cost to have a few placards made up and placed on the washroom doors?
2. I sat in row 13 which is 2 rows back from the Business Class cabin and on the separation curtain was a piece of paper that looked like it had been ripped out of a notebook with yet another handwritten scrawled message *Business Class only Beyond Here*. This paper was scotch taped to the curtain, on an angle (crooked) at chest height and looked unbelievably tacky.
3. On the return flight from YVR we started out with 3 of 5 lav's in the economy section out of service. Again hand written signs indicated this.
4. There are only a few ceiling mounted video screens on these aircraft and the one that served for rows 25 rearwards on my side of the A/C was again broken before we even left YVR. This meant that the passengers in this section didn't even see the safety demonstration. I was under the impression that if this is the case the passengers in this section are supposed to have a flight attendant do a manual demo. If you are sitting on the left hand side of the aircraft you cannot see the screen in the right hand aisle as it is mounted so high on the ceiling. No apology was made to the passengers in this section it was just completely ignored.
5. On the outbound flight the PA system was barely audible and the Flight Attendants acknowledged that this was an ongoing problem with this A/C. I guess being an x- crew member I am tuned to straining to listen to announcements and at one point a call was made for medical assistance onboard. I think I was the only person to hear it and I suggested to one of the crew members that they walk through the cabins and verbally repeat the announcement as no one would have heard it. Sure enough they did find someone and the F/A came back and thanked me and again repeated to me that the PA system on this aircraft was useless.

The point of my post is not to *rag* on AC but to attempt to find a couple of people who will take this info back to management and let them know that passengers are very aware of cabin interior conditions. While someone like myself (and most others on this forum) would understand that the interior does not necessarily reflect the standards of maintenance elsewhere on the aircraft. (I have absolutely no doubt that AC mtce standards are exemplary) .... the average passenger views the inside and assumes that the rest of the A/C suffers the same fate. I overheard many many comments during the course of these two flights that back up my statement.

I understand that AC is experiencing a shortage of long haul A/C and probably feel that these interior defects can be left for later, or perhaps they feel that the aircraft are going to be overhauled soon and it will be taken care of then ...... but in the meantime hundreds of passengers see the A/C in this condition everyday and it does have an impact. These aircraft fly on long haul domestic as well as International services and are in no way comparable to the aircraft used by the *competition*. People will go elsewhere, there are other choices. Air Canada has come a long way lately in their financial turnaround but I don't think that these standards will take them very far in the International marketplace...... and that is where they make their money.

I have always been a fan of AC and while one can understand the cutbacks in meal presentation, service items onboard, lack of magazines etc ...... the average passenger will not overlook shabby conditions in the cabin.

Thanks for listening
Simong
BA all the way !!!
 
timeair
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:23 am

Being refitted this fall/winter with B777 type interiors and IFE all seats.
You can't get there from here.
 
Tod
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:33 am

Quoting TIMEAIR (Reply 1):
Being refitted this fall/winter with B777 type interiors and IFE all seats.

From what I've heard it'll be spring at the soonest.

Tod
 
cayman
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:50 am

Simong, a very well thought out and informative post--thanks. I wish i could do something about it alas i too am just a member of the flying public.

I think AC has very high maintenance standards and is an excellent airline. At the same time, I fear that they are waiting for a full refit before doing some bare minimum on the interiors. If we are now talking about next spring at soonest, assuming it will be a long process to get them all done----that leaves something to be desired about these interiors.

I recently flew YYZ LHR on an A333 and to be honest that interior was getting a little tired and my wife's seat back compartment was torn off and almost hanging on the floor.

On way back LHR YYZ however, we were on a 763 (I assume ex CP because of blue colour interior?)--anyway by contrast it was clean, crisp and in very nice shape.

The issue is a respected intl airline like AC needs consistency.
 
ikramerica
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:52 am

Quoting CayMan (Reply 3):
The issue is a respected intl airline like AC needs consistency.

Exactly. It's my feeling about DLs run-down 763s on the ATL-LGA run. Sure it's a low yield route, but the planes are disgustingly run-down, and they set a poor example for a non-frequent DL flyer.

AC should take more pride.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Boeing744
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:43 am

Quoting Simong (Thread starter):
5. On the outbound flight the PA system was barely audible and the Flight Attendants acknowledged that this was an ongoing problem with this A/C.

A little off topic, but I have noticed this problem on AC planes. In particular, ACJazz Dash8-100s. I have not been on AC's 767s but have never heard any negative comments about them before.
 
WillFang
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:28 am

I've been on AC's 767s flying international to PVG many times, and those interiors, while not perfect, seemed acceptable. And unlike what someone mentioned earlier, I have also flown ex-CP 767s and the conditions were a lot worse.

So what I'm trying to say is that it's not fair to assume that the entire fleet is in this shape. Perhaps you just got unlucky and encountered two bad apples? That being said, I'm glad AC is refitting their interiors with IFE et al.

- Will
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Simong
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:45 am

In answer to my own post ..... perhaps these two birds are only used on domestic services, although when we landed last night we parked at the infield terminal which suggests the A/C was going to turnaround onto an International flight. Anyone from AC have any insight as to the route patterns of tail numbers #681 and #646 ?

Thanks
Simong
BA all the way !!!
 
Detroiter
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:48 am

I am sorry to say this,
few days ago as I was coming back from LHR to YYZ, my checking in agent said it is 767 when I asked her about the aircraft type, I really thought seriously to take the next flight but it was the 9 pm flight (the last one).

I was flying in business class, luckily the audio system was working but the seat did not recline to it is full position, when they served the meal they skipped the appetizers, they did not hand us the in flight complementary kit, and defiantly because it is an old aircraft we did not have personal videos. By the way the flight was not full so I tried to change my seat to get a better one- but no luck.


My question is, when AC is going to retire those 767’s, how can we compete with the BA,AF,EY or even US carries. Is that why AC does not allow more carriers to fly into YYZ?

believe it or not I enjoy flying EK777-300 in economy class better than AC business class.
 
spyderz
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:21 am

With respect to knowing if the aircraft were domestic 767-300's, the easiest way to tell if they have four large exit doors.

My best memory of a poor 767 interior (albiet 200) was that the tray table would fall down every time the person in the seat in fron shifted their weight. So there I am before landing with a huge roll of duck tape taping the tray table to the seat in front. Must've looked kinda funny, but it provided me with five minutes of good entertainment.
 
WillFang
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:41 am

Quoting Detroiter (Reply 8):
My question is, when AC is going to retire those 767’s, how can we compete with the BA,AF,EY or even US carries. Is that why AC does not allow more carriers to fly into YYZ?

AC will not retire those 767s until they find a suitable replacement. If they go with the 787, they won't be receiving them for many years to come.

However, like mentioned above, AC is completely refitting the interior of every aircraft in its fleet, slated to being this winter/next spring.

As for competing with other carriers...sure AC's 767 interiors may not be as nice as the newer aircraft in BA or AF's fleet. But I think they are still miles ahead of the interiors of older American aircraft (NW DC-10's, DC-9's, UA 762's, etc.). But like I said, AC will be receiving new interiors shortly.
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ACB777
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:30 am

I agree that the AC 763s are worn out. I flew on an ex CP 763 this summer, and it was in satisfactory condition. The seats had several stains, but they were still comfortable (they were better than the EK 773 seats!). Also, the picture quality on the main screen was terrible! The AC A333, however, was much better, as there were footrests, small but good quality screens, etc.

Quoting Simong (Reply 7):
Anyone from AC have any insight as to the route patterns of tail numbers #681 and #646 ?

I'm not an AC employee, but I saw tail number 681 at LHR this August. I believe it was being used for AC897 LHR-YVR on that particular day. Fin 681 is one of the oldest 767-300s in the fleet.
 
slawko
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 8:30 am

"Is that why AC does not allow more carriers to fly into YYZ?"

What the hell????
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:45 am

Are any of you willing to walk away from AC, based on the above complaints? If not, there is no incentive for AC to improve with blindly captive or loyal customers.

Clearly, with a record high load factor of 80%, AC has made the right financial decision to let the 763 interiors run down and keep them flying. I bet costs could be lowered even further by taking 4 of 5 economy lavs out of service.

Unless you're all willing to take your business to WJ or BA, stop complaining about the service you voluntarily paid big bucks for.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Skydrol
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:49 am

When flying on AC, I would rather fly a flithy, worn-out B767 than an A320 or A330 anyday!! Have been in a few ex-CAIL B767300 flights where the cabins were in pretty rough shape and also some which were exceptionally good. Find the CAIL blue seats to be more comfortable than AC's green or burgundy. Most non ex-CAIL AC 767s have been consistently good on flights I've been on. This being said, there is no excuse on any aircraft type for instructions scrawled on a lav door with a marker!

GOOD SEATS (AC):
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BEST SEATS (ex-CAIL):
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boeingfanyyz
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:49 am

During the summer, I flew a 763 YYZ-YVR. The interior condition was amazing. Mind you, I was in business class. F/A's were very friendly and the seats were amazing. I had a whole seat to myself which ensured extra arm room. Simply stunning!
Cheers,
Boeingfanyyz  airplane 
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Cessnapimp
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:32 pm

Interior Conversions will start in March for the 767-300's specifically. That includes new lavs, galley reconfig for some., Boeing BigBins, entirely new seats (not just the fabric) and the Thales i4500 system. New seats and i4500 for the narrowbodies starting late this year.

Conversions regarding the 67's will take until 2010 to implement the new interiors on every machine. Remember that the 767 will be around at AC until at least 2015 if not more. This is a long term investment for AC, and starting not a moment too soon.
 
ac7e7
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:38 pm

Quoting Boeingfanyyz (Reply 15):
I had a whole seat to myself which ensured extra arm room

Nothing annoys me more when I have to share my seat with someone else!  Wink
 
Simong
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:43 pm

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 17):
Nothing annoys me more when I have to share my seat with someone else!

Priceless ........ I love it !

Good on you AC7E7
BA all the way !!!
 
Boeing744
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:46 pm

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 14):

What about these seats?

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Photo © Vasco Garcia

 
Skydrol
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:20 pm

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 19):
What about these seats?

You have to tell me. I haven't been in an AC 767 with brown seats yet. Looks fine though, since there are no PTVs or phones.



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707lvr
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:54 pm

Very good post, Simong. I was surprised. Just about every item you mentioned would have an effect upon the customer/passenger far out of proportion to the miniscule cost which would be required to fix it. There has to be One Person at AC responsible for this sort of thing, and he's not doing his job. Maybe this thread will land on his desk in the morning! It isn't so much an aviation issue as much as a matter of simple pride of doing business .
 
ACB777
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:59 pm

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 19):

What about these seats?

That particular 767 belonged to Air Europe Italy and Balair in the 90's.
 
Geo772
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:28 pm

Quoting Cessnapimp (Reply 16):
Interior Conversions will start in March for the 767-300's specifically. That includes new lavs, galley reconfig for some., Boeing BigBins, entirely new seats (not just the fabric) and the Thales i4500 system. New seats and i4500 for the narrowbodies starting late this year.

Conversions regarding the 67's will take until 2010 to implement the new interiors on every machine. Remember that the 767 will be around at AC until at least 2015 if not more. This is a long term investment for AC, and starting not a moment too soon.

It's good to see that they are going to update the product. However it is no excuse to cut back on cabin maintenance until the refit. Especially if the aircraft could fly for another 5 years with its current interior. As for placarding, especially on toilets there are some legal minimum placards which have to be displayed. Having flown transatlantic a few times now on AC on A333 and B763 the cabins were rather dated on both. The IFE was awful on both - at least it worked when I flew on the 763 the update can't come soon enough.
Flown on A300B4/600,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343,B727,B732/3/4/5/6/7/8,B741/2/4,B752/3,B762/3,B772/3,DC10,L1011-200,VC10,MD80,
 
squad55
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:33 pm

Quoting ACB777 (Reply 22):



Quoting ACB777 (Reply 22):
Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 19):

What about these seats?

That particular 767 belonged to Air Europe Italy and Balair in the 90's.

That particular 767 was a ex CP bird built in 1992. While it originally flew from Balair, the seats you see were the new seats or fabric when they introduced the proud wings livery. The business seats on this a/c were re upholstered to green when AC came along. You can find these same seats on the other proud wings 767 and a few of the 747-400's.
 
SKA380
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:25 pm

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 14):
When flying on AC, I would rather fly a filthy, worn-out B767 than an A320 or A330 anyday!!

Would you mind explaining why?
So if you had the choice between a brand new A330 and one of the 2 top 767's there, you would choose the 767?

Regards,
Leif
 
Gman94
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:02 pm

I had two flights on Air Canada 763's last month. The interior was fine, it didn't look old or worn out. My problem with Air Canada is the outdated IFE and the moody flight attendants especially as AC is supposed to be the best airline in North America. I have to say that they are light years behind BA who I usually fly with, but the day flight from YYZ was great for overcoming jet lag.

Quoting SKA380 (Reply 25):
Quoting Skydrol (Reply 14):
When flying on AC, I would rather fly a filthy, worn-out B767 than an A320 or A330 anyday!!

Would you mind explaining why?
So if you had the choice between a brand new A330 and one of the 2 top 767's there, you would choose the 767?

Because someone always has to turn every topic into a A v B war and don't you know us Europeans build crap planes.  Sad
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
PM
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:25 pm

#681 is an ex-Canadian 767 built in 1988 and delivered new to them. #646 was delivered new to Korea (Korean? Asiana?) in 1991 and acquired by AC in 2001. There doesn't seem to be any good reason why either should be in a tatty condition. But look out for #689 and its sister ship. Both are '93 models and I flew on both when they were with Kenya Airways. They were second-hand then (with interior signage in Spanish) and have now been passed down to AC (via ILFC) as KQ receive new 767s and 777s. Neither was in a great condition earlier this year. I wonder if AC are going to tart them up?
 
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yowza
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:38 am

I've flown FRA-YYZ, LHR-YOW in sh*tboxes with wings in the last few months. I feel your pain. Just hold out till the refitting if possible.

YOWza
 
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Crosswind
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:46 am

This one, the most recent Air Canada interior shot, looks pretty shabby...

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Photo © Eric Fortin - AirImages


The seats appear to be in good condition, but look at the botched tape-repairs all over the cabin sidewall panels!

Haven't seen an interior repaired like that to such an extent since flying on an unmodified Pan Am 747-100 in 1988... But just like Air Canada is about to on the 767, Pan Am were fitting new cabins and larger overhead bns on their 747s at the time. The aircraft I flew home on had been modified and the cabin in very good condition despite the age of the aircraft.

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
sebring
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:48 am

Somebody told me today that the reason that the refurbishing timeline slipped a bit has nothing to do with the airline's willingness to spend the money, but on supplier difficulties. The Thales i4500 has to be available in the needed quantities before you start scheduling major overhauls, and Thales is late. And the new lie-flat seat in Executive Class is late. About a month ago, AC assigned a senior manager to put the lumber to these suppliers and get precise delivery timetables. Apparently, AC is also applying muscle to Embraer to kick Thales in particular.
 
YUL2010
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:06 am

As an AC employee, I have to admit I'm somewhat embarrassed at our aircrafts' interior. And you're right about inconsistency. You never know what to expect when it comes to seats.
I'm pretty confident though that within this year, Air Canada's product will be able to compete with the other giants, like BA, AF, etc.
"Hotel November Oscar clear to land runway 24L"
 
cayman
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:24 am

However, I have to say I went across the Pacific on a 763 and back on a 343 in exec first--and defly preferred the seat in the 763. It looked older but was way more comfortable.
 
Cessnapimp
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:39 am

It might also have to do that the i4500 system has yet to be certified/approved for use by Transport Canada. It is a time consuming process and I'm sure the execs are getting impatient at this. Trust me, we all want to see the refits ASAP! Will post updates when/if I get them.  Smile
 
sebring
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:47 am

Quoting Cessnapimp (Reply 33):
It might also have to do that the i4500 system has yet to be certified/approved for use by Transport Canada. It is a time consuming process and I'm sure the execs are getting impatient at this. Trust me, we all want to see the refits ASAP! Will post updates when/if I get them.

Well, what I heard to do had more with the projected availability of the equipment "off the line" and not the certification program.
 
Cessnapimp
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Sat Oct 15, 2005 5:01 am

Ah, ok.

Hard to get precise info sometimes. Thanks Sebring!  Smile Any clue if the 195's will come with the system already in place? Is that what you were referring to with regards to Embraer?
 
sebring
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Sat Oct 15, 2005 5:11 am

Quoting Cessnapimp (Reply 35):
Any clue if the 195's will come with the system already in place? Is that what you were referring to with regards to Embraer?

That's the issue. AC will have enough planes to retrofit without the 190s being also listed for retrofit. They want the IFE as part of the intro "splash".
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: AC Employees - Comments On B767 Interiors

Sun Oct 16, 2005 7:13 am

Right off the bat--agreed. The 767's are looking a bit long in the tooth, and as addressed in MANY previous posts, they are about to undergo complete refurbishments. It's a matter of getting all of the components in place--seating, entertainment, galleys, etc. It makes perfectly logical sense to take the aircraft off-line once all of the components are in place for the complete makeover.

Quoting Simong (Thread starter):
1. The lavatory doors on both these A/C had black magic marker hand written *Push Here to Open* signs on them. This looks so tacky and unprofessional and many passengers around me were commenting on how they had never seen this before. How much can it cost to have a few placards made up and placed on the washroom doors?

Somehow this one must have slipped through the cracks. Sent a message to engineering, to fix. In previous posts we have been accused of having too many placards. Also, can't imagine an employee scrawling a sign in magic marker on the door. This is akin to vandalizing your own home.

Quoting Simong (Thread starter):
2. I sat in row 13 which is 2 rows back from the Business Class cabin and on the separation curtain was a piece of paper that looked like it had been ripped out of a notebook with yet another handwritten scrawled message *Business Class only Beyond Here*. This paper was scotch taped to the curtain, on an angle (crooked) at chest height and looked unbelievably tacky.

Some aircraft have "Business Class Only" placards provisioned on board to be affixed to the curtains. I suspect it was missing from this aircraft, and was an attempt by the crew to reserve the flow of economy traffic into the business cabin. If you were travelling in business on this flight, you would appreciate the effort, and do apologize for the poor stationery and penmanship.

Quoting Simong (Reply 7):
Anyone from AC have any insight as to the route patterns of tail numbers #681 and #646 ?

Aside from the A340-500's, no aircraft has a single route pattern. If you parked at the infield terminal, it's simply because of a tight turn, and further impacting a delay by having to tow from T-1 to the infield. Most often, YVR arriving aircraft arriving at the infield are in tight turns to South America. AC090 (GRU) & AC 092/094 (SCL/EZE).

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 20):
You have to tell me. I haven't been in an AC 767 with brown seats yet. Looks fine though, since there are no PTVs or phones.

There are no 767's with brown seats. The closest would be the few former Canadian aircraft with the "Proud Wings" livery/interiors. They are greyish-gold. Attribute the "brown" to poor night lighting photography.

Quoting Crosswind (Reply 29):
The seats appear to be in good condition, but look at the botched tape-repairs all over the cabin sidewall panels!

Sorry chum, but your text is a bit misleading. Makes it sound like the sidewalls are being held up by tape. In actuality, it is velcrow to which privacy curtains are affixed for crew rest on non-bunk equipped aircraft (as there are only 4 in the fleet--fins 658-661). Agreed it is not the most appealing design, but rest assured, it's not to hold up the walls.

Quoting Simong (Thread starter):
I was flying in business class, luckily the audio system was working but the seat did not recline to it is full position, when they served the meal they skipped the appetizers, they did not hand us the in flight complementary kit, and defiantly because it is an old aircraft we did not have personal videos.

This is starting to feel like, "Ask Mr. Air Canada"!! If the seat wasn't reclining to it's full position, and there were not other available seats, we have the ability to compensate you for the deficiency either in Aeroplan Miles, or a travel voucher. I have yet to come across another airline who provides this service. If you travelled at 9pm, you would have been on AC859. Given the late departure time, and the overwhelming number of connections from Asia on this flight, the J/C meal service is condensed due to customer preference to sleep as the flight arrives well beyond midnight in YYZ. There is no separate appetizer, just a salad, and a combined cheese, dessert, coffee, liquer trolley. At one time this flight offered the full meal deal, and the wasteage was incredible. The change was made following customers who did not want the traditional 2 1/2 hour service. As far as the toiletry kit, did you bring it to the attention of the crew. While not excusable...perhaps they just forgot??

Unfortunately change takes time, and given the flying demands and the fleet shortage, it's not happening as quickly as we'd all like. I'd say stick around--the best is yet to come!!

[Edited 2005-10-16 00:14:51]
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