rsmith6621a
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Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:49 am

Delta files order to stop payment on LAX facilities

Thursday October 13, 4:07 pm ET

Bankrupt Delta Air Lines Inc. is seeking a court order to allow it to stop payment on $88 million in bonds that financed its facilities at Los Angeles International Airport.

According to a report from Dow Jones, in the suit, filed Thursday in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Manhattan, Atlanta-based Delta claims that because its facilities lease at the airport was really a loan, the carrier wasn't required to repay its debt obligation while operating under Chapter 11.

Delta cited the agreement not as a "true lease" but rather a "disguised" financing agreement, namely an unsecured loan. Under bankruptcy law, a company in Chapter 11 can stop making payments on unsecured loans.

(snip)

http://biz.yahoo.com/bizj/051013/1177587.html?.v=1

Published October 13, 2005 by the Atlanta Business Chronicle

I wonder if DL wants the taxpayers of Los Angeles to flip the bill.
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MidnightMike
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RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:09 am

Quoting Rsmith6621a (Thread starter):
Delta cited the agreement not as a "true lease" but rather a "disguised" financing agreement, namely an unsecured loan. Under bankruptcy law, a company in Chapter 11 can stop making payments on unsecured loans.


HA! I would love to see the LAX airport authority kick Delta out of the terminal for that!
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N509JB
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RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:16 am

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 1):
HA! I would love to see the LAX airport authority kick Delta out of the terminal for that!

HA! That won't happen.

B
 
searpqx
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RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:21 am

Quoting N509JB (Reply 2):
HA! That won't happen.

But it should - this is what gripes everybody about CH11, DL basically gets to operate rent free in one of it's larger stations while all the competitors not only have to pay their normal costs, but in many cases foot DL's bill by paying increased operating costs.

The intent of Chapter 11 is to provide protection from creditors while the bankrupt party reorganizes, hopefully with the end result that some/most creditors eventually receive something from the reorganization, vs. nothing from a liquidation. It's not meant to shield you from paying day to day operating expenses, but that is how DL appears to want to use it.
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yyz717
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RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:29 am

This is ridiculous. A clear example of how Chap 11 goes too far.

LAX should (to the degree that it can) refuse to handle DL if DL succeeds in not paying rent at LAX.
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rsmith6621a
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RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:33 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 4):
This is ridiculous. A clear example of how Chap 11 goes too far.

LAX should (to the degree that it can) refuse to handle DL if DL succeeds in not paying rent at LAX.

Even More its suprising how much corporations can get away with while the average american on Saturday the 15th will have to deal with stricter BK rules.....
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Kahala777
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RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:38 am

You know one thing, and this is for sure karma can come back and bite anyone in the rear. If Delta becomes to cocky and starts pulling these little stunts, you can look for hefty delays due to "extended" Delta Airlines/Song taxi times at Los Angeles. Dont forget that their is more than one way for the LAX Airport to get back at Delta for its childish games. You could also expect TSA/Customs to not be available for some of Delta Airlines inbound flights from Mexico. Look for LAX to fight back and offer part of the existing, unused Delta gates to any airline willing to pay for a gate or two... Remember, payback and karma go hand in hand.

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MarshalN
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RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:42 am

You know.... LAX probably wouldn't miss DL a lot (especially if they aren't paying anyway), but I'm sure DL will probably miss LAX a lot.

I think that about sums it up...
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:47 am

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 7):
LAX probably wouldn't miss DL a lot (especially if they aren't paying anyway),

They would still be paying landing fees which are pretty high for 764's and 763's.

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 6):
Look for LAX to fight back and offer part of the existing, unused Delta gates to any airline willing to pay for a gate or two...

No airline is going to pay to move to Terminal 5 and any airline that would start service into LAX would likely be doing so at LAX's expense anyway.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 4):
LAX should (to the degree that it can) refuse to handle DL if DL succeeds in not paying rent at LAX.

It's a matter of needs. The airport does need DL and DL does need the airport. Right now DL can't pay and that is what they are telling the airport. When DL can pay again once out of BK protection they likely won't get a generous financing deal for renting airport facilities. If they never get out the airport is out of the money anyway.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
commavia
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RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:49 am

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 7):
You know.... LAX probably wouldn't miss DL a lot (especially if they aren't paying anyway), but I'm sure DL will probably miss LAX a lot.

You can say that again. Obviously, LAX would not want Delta to leave, but -- given this recent turn of events -- I'm sure LAX would much rather like to deal with airlines far more committed to LAX (namely American and United).
 
ikramerica
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RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:56 am

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 1):
HA! I would love to see the LAX airport authority kick Delta out of the terminal for that!

At least kick them out of gates 61 and 63 and give them to CO. They are severely gate constrained at LAX when there are ground holds/delays into IAH or EWR. Yesterday two EWR flights were so late that they were out of gates trying to handle all the planes, and dipping into the "shared" 69 gate that UA usually uses. Yet as usually, 61 sits empty, and 63 is used lightly by DL.
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N509JB
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RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:58 am

Quoting Rsmith6621a (Reply 5):
Even More its suprising how much corporations can get away with while the average american on Saturday the 15th will have to deal with stricter BK rules.....

Yea, well, we have no one to blame but ourselves for re-electing someone!  Wink

Anyway, you people can wish all you want, and "should" this and "I want" that. Delta isn't going anywhere, LAX is not kicking them out, deal with it.

B
 
InTheSky74
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RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:12 am

Actually, the bankruptcy laws have nothing to do with our president - they have been in effect for many many years.

Rob
 
commavia
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RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:14 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
Yet as usually, 61 sits empty, and 63 is used lightly by DL.

Ikramerica, question -- what is Delta's overall gate utilization at LAX? Relative to other airlines?

I know American uses their LAX gates in T4 extremely intensively compared with other airlines and other terminals at LAX. How does DL stack up?
 
Lono
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RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:21 am

anyone know what happened to the old WA headquarters?????
I remember they had some Totem Poles outside!!!
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aaway
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RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:23 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 13):
what is Delta's overall gate utilization at LAX? Relative to other airlines?

I know American uses their LAX gates in T4 extremely intensively compared with other airlines and other terminals at LAX. How does DL stack up?

I'll answer this one...DL has 16 gates for 40 turns. Throw in AF, AM, CZ, and SY and add approximately 10 more turns. Very low utilization.

DL has a long term lease for T-5. T-6 gates are controlled by LAWA, with preferrential usage given to the current T-6 tenants. Perhaps LAWA will attempt to amend DL's lease of gates there.

Lono...regarding your question about the WA facilities DL inherited with the merger...the buildings remain, but the usage, and their uses have changed. DL's LAX res office closed in September. As a result the mid-rise admin building is not as active...though many of the former admin functions performed there had been moved to ATL long ago. Line maintenance is conducted in the widebody hangar. However, the adjacent narrowbody hangar is used mostly for storage. The two original hangars (50's vintage fronting Avion Drive) were converted into cargo facilities in the late 90's and used by Mercury Air Group.

[Edited 2005-10-14 04:30:30]

[Edited 2005-10-14 04:31:08]
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commavia
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RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:24 am

Quoting Aaway (Reply 15):
I'll answer this one...DL has 16 gates for 40 turns. Throw in AF, AM, CZ, and SY and add approximately 10 more turns. Very low utilization.

Any definitive numbers on AA? As I said, I know they use their gates very heavily -- just walking around T4 on a Monday, Friday, Sunday around 7am will tell you that!

Quoting Aaway (Reply 15):
DL has a long term lease for T-5. T-6 gates are controlled by LAWA, with preferrential usage given to the current T-6 tenants. Perhaps LAWA will attempt to amend DL's lease of gates there.

If LAX tries to get out of the preferential use stipulations with Delta and the other T5 tenants, would CO be the likely recepient of preferential (or exclusive) use on the gates in T6?
 
Lono
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RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:40 am

Quoting Aaway (Reply 15):
...regarding your question about the WA facilities DL inherited with the merger

Hey thanks for info.... now I am bummed!!!! Sad DL was not able to protect their investment there in LAX..... Man 40 flights a day!!!! wow what a bummer.... Totem poles still there...???? is there and recent photos's of the place.... As a manager of the JNU station I remember having to go and visit Harold Achzinnger (sp) and Grinstrein when WA pulled out of the JNU-ANC market

[Edited 2005-10-14 04:43:38]
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aaway
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RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:48 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 16):
Any definitive numbers on AA? As I said, I know they use their gates very heavily -- just walking around T4 on a Monday, Friday, Sunday around 7am will tell you that!

Don't have the current sked in front of me, but it's 90-95 turns for 13 gates, a bit higher if QF's ops are added.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 16):
If LAX tries to get out of the preferential use stipulations with Delta and the other T5 tenants, would CO be the likely recepient of preferential (or exclusive) use on the gates in T6?

I don't think lease machinations involving T-5 will affect T-6. However, DL has preferential usage of gates 61, 63, and 65 in T-6. CO would seem to be the most likely benefactor of any changes. But, I understand from a meeting I attended earlier this week that former CO office space in T-6 is still earmarked for US. I was certainly surprised by this revelation, though I have doubts US will move.

Regarding exclusive versus preferential gate usage here, LAWA will not acquiese to exclusive gate leases in the terminals that they (LAWA) control: T-3, T-6, TBIT.

Hopefully Laxint will see this thread and possibly chime in with more info.
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N509JB
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RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:09 pm

Quoting InTheSky74 (Reply 12):
Actually, the bankruptcy laws have nothing to do with our president - they have been in effect for many many years.

Not up on current events, huh?  Wink

Go look it up, it's great reading.

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LAXintl
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RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:17 pm

As far as the bonds, remember United also tried to default on theirs. At the end the bonds were somewhat renegotiated but the carrier was still liable.
I'm not sure how DL expects to convince the judge that the bonds were a "disguised financing agreement". A contract is a contract and the judge simply must interpret what he sees.

Overall DL use of facilities at LAX has been at a decline over years. The recent increase in Song flying has given the operations some added life however its nothing close to the peak during the early/mid 90s while it still operated most of the ex Western network, had both Asia and Europe nonstops, and had a very busy Skywest/DL Connection operation

Quoting Aaway (Reply 15):
Throw in AF

Air France moved away from Delta earlier in the year an now is now in Terminal-2
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commavia
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RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:19 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 20):
Overall DL use of facilities at LAX has been at a decline over years.

That's for sure. Delta has been in decline at LAX for years. They went from being, IIRC, LAX's #2 airline back in the mid-1990s to today being a distant #4. They traded places with American, who moved from #4 to a very close #2.
 
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RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:24 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 4):
This is ridiculous. A clear example of how Chap 11 goes too far.

Agreed. The fact that judges have been rubber-stamping just about every single motion bankrupt carriers have asked for has emboldened these airlines to the point where they have amazing chutzpah - they'll ask for EVERYTHING, even outlandish things like this because:

  • so far the judges have been very cooperative with airline requests

  • they have nothing to lose and everything to gain by asking


  • Quoting N509JB (Reply 19):
    Quoting InTheSky74 (Reply 12):
    Actually, the bankruptcy laws have nothing to do with our president - they have been in effect for many many years.

    Not up on current events, huh?

    Apparently you're not either, because the current bankruptcy laws are the ones DL and NW are playing under - the revisions have not yet taken effect and are of no consequence here.
    "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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    aloha73g
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:40 pm

    My guess is that they are trying to stop paying on bonds issude to finance renovations--which may have been issed as a 'loan' by LAWA--but will still pay their rent. It doesn't say they want to stop paying rent, just they want to stop paying on bonds issued to finance improvements. It just depends on what documentation they have about why the bonds were issued...they (DL) might be completely correct. the article is rather vague about exactly what is going on. Wait for the hearings.

    Quoting Searpqx (Reply 3):
    But it should - this is what gripes everybody about CH11, DL basically gets to operate rent free in one of it's larger stations while all the competitors not only have to pay their normal costs, but in many cases foot DL's bill by paying increased operating costs.

    Valid point, except that a good number of their competitors in LAX are also currently in Ch. 11 or were recently (UA, NW, HA, TZ, US.....)

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    yyz717
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:52 pm

    Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 8):
    It's a matter of needs. The airport does need DL and DL does need the airport.

    LAX does not need DL. LAX needs the passengers. The passengers will quickly migrate to other carriers if DL is "refused" handling by LAX.

    LAX should seriously consider action against DL. I would love to see LAX deny DL access to LAX airport until they recommence payment.
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    N509JB
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:48 pm

    Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 22):
    Apparently you're not either, because the current bankruptcy laws are the ones DL and NW are playing under - the revisions have not yet taken effect and are of no consequence here.

    Go back and read reply #5 which I was referencing.

    Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 24):
    The passengers will quickly migrate to other carriers if DL is "refused" handling by LAX.

    LAX should seriously consider action against DL. I would love to see LAX deny DL access to LAX airport until they recommence payment.

    Well, I'd like to see Jessica Alba in my bed when I get home tonite, but that's not happening either.

    Give it a rest. None of this effects any of you in the least. This is a non event.

    B
     
    aaway
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:05 am

    Quoting Laxintl (Reply 20):
    Air France moved away from Delta earlier in the year an now is now in Terminal-2

     banghead  Yeah...I knew that.

    Quoting Commavia (Reply 21):
    Delta has been in decline at LAX for years. They went from being, IIRC, LAX's #2 airline back in the mid-1990s to today being a distant #4.

    DL was the #1 carrier in marketshare for one year, 1992/93 IIRC.

    Quoting Laxintl (Reply 20):
    As far as the bonds, remember United also tried to default on theirs. At the end the bonds were somewhat renegotiated but the carrier was still liable.
    I'm not sure how DL expects to convince the judge that the bonds were a "disguised financing agreement". A contract is a contract and the judge simply must interpret what he sees

    Had the bankruptcy court found in favor of UA's position on the bonds the decision may have been precedent setting, with negative connotations for the future of airport finance. Would seem DL is attempting an end-around in this case.
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    laca773
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:27 am

    Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):

    Ikramerica, I agree with you. LAWA should take the T6 gates away from DL and give them to CO especially if CO's gate space is very tight at times. They surely could use them vs. DL's low usage of them.

    I'd like to see AS in T5. They deserve a nice terminal and with all of their international flights they wouldn't have to use the already over crowded TBIT. T3 is in horrible shape, and with the amount of flights AS has, this would be a perfect fit for them. LAWA could also move move a couple of international carriers into T5 that need widebody space to additionally elivate the crowding at TBIT.
    Just my 3 cents.

    LACA773
     
    commavia
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:30 am

    Quoting LACA773 (Reply 27):
    I'd like to see AS in T5.

    While it would no doubt smooth AS/QX-AA connections a bit by having the two airline side by side in T4/T5, I doubt AS would want to give up what they have in T3. After wanting it so badly for decades, AS/QX finally now have control over their own gate and office space in T3, and their own Board Room. I doubt they would leave that to trade it for having to answer to another airline (Delta) again if they were to move to T5.
     
    Pope
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:42 am

    Have no fear, Heather Locklear and Blair Underwood are on the case.
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    travelin man
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:34 am

    Given AA's constraints in a great (but packed) T4, I would think T5 would be a natural extension for them. Also, there is still (I believe) an underground walkway connecting T4 & T5 inside security, which would make connections easier.

    If DL refuses to pay the bonds, does that make them forgoe their exclusive rights to T5 even if they are still paying rent? If I have a house, and I take out a 2nd mortgage on it to fix it up, and then I decide I'm NOT going to pay the 2nd mortgage, but still pay the first mortgage, I'm pretty sure the bank would take over my house.
     
    positiverate
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:37 am

    Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 6):
    If Delta becomes to cocky and starts pulling these little stunts, you can look for hefty delays due to "extended" Delta Airlines/Song taxi times at Los Angeles. Dont forget that their is more than one way for the LAX Airport to get back at Delta for its childish games.

    Los Angeles World Airports doesn't control taxi times. The tower is an FAA facility and is in no way connected (except for the fact that they sit on the airport) with LAWA. The FAA has no gripe with DL on this matter.
     
    DAYflyer
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:38 am

    Quoting Rsmith6621a (Thread starter):
    Bankrupt Delta Air Lines Inc. is seeking a court order to allow it to stop payment on $88 million in bonds that financed its facilities at Los Angeles International Airport.

    Which should immediately disqaulify them from occupying any gate space in said terminal. It should set them up for immediate eviction in my opinion.
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    ikramerica
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:11 am

    Quoting Commavia (Reply 13):
    Ikramerica, question -- what is Delta's overall gate utilization at LAX? Relative to other airlines?

    Can only speak to T6, as I fly CO, but it is LOW. They barely ever use 61 and 65 that I can see, and 63 is used for 767 service to Atlanta some parts of the day. I assume they like 63 since they can park a widebody there and not interupt other gates in T5.

    Quoting Aaway (Reply 15):
    DL has a long term lease for T-5. T-6 gates are controlled by LAWA, with preferrential usage given to the current T-6 tenants. Perhaps LAWA will attempt to amend DL's lease of gates there.

    CO, DL and UA both have rights to T6 from way back. But with DL in T5 and UA in T7-8, to a certain degree, they are holding on to those gates because they can. Less so in UAs case as it uses 68 and 69 for widebodies, but with the cutbacks, they likely could "do without."

    But I'm not proposing that.

    Quoting Commavia (Reply 16):
    If LAX tries to get out of the preferential use stipulations with Delta and the other T5 tenants, would CO be the likely recepient of preferential (or exclusive) use on the gates in T6?

    I would think you would actually see CO ask for 60-65, and UA take 66-69B for exclusive use. That gives CO enough widebody gates and centralizes their ops around the start of T6 and the President's Club, and lets UA control the whole end of T6.

    Right now, they share 68AB and 69AB, and it's a hassle for all.

    Copa also uses CO 64. Late at night, 60-64 are turned into a parking stand for ERJs going to mexico, and CO uses the end of the terminal for mainline. Would be nice to get them closer.

    Quoting Aaway (Reply 18):
    Regarding exclusive versus preferential gate usage here, LAWA will not acquiese to exclusive gate leases in the terminals that they (LAWA) control: T-3, T-6, TBIT.

    Can you explain what you mean a bit clearer? And who controls T2?

    Quoting N509JB (Reply 25):
    Give it a rest. None of this effects any of you in the least. This is a non event.

    How so? I fly LAX all the time, being an LA resident. DL being forced out of T6 would benefit me greatly!

    Quoting LACA773 (Reply 27):
    Ikramerica, I agree with you. LAWA should take the T6 gates away from DL and give them to CO especially if CO's gate space is very tight at times. They surely could use them vs. DL's low usage of them.

    CO has 2 exclusive and 4(5?) shared gates right now and flies on average 10 IAH, 6 EWR, 3 CLE, 1 HNL, and 5 Mexico flights a day = 25 flights. They plan on adding more Mexico routes, and in the summer often add another CLE and EWR frequency on some days.

    An arrangement of 5 exclusive and 1 shared (Copa) gate without the UA presence would really streamline things.

    Alternatively, CO could take 61-69 (odd) and UA could take 60-68 (even), keeping UA entirely on the same side as T7, but I think both would prefer the other block arrangement.

    One downside for CO is 60 and 62 are tow-in gates like 61 and 63, where 68,69 are pull in gates, which saves about 2 minutes of turn around time.

    Quoting Travelin man (Reply 30):
    Given AA's constraints in a great (but packed) T4, I would think T5 would be a natural extension for them. Also, there is still (I believe) an underground walkway connecting T4 & T5 inside security, which would make connections easier.

    So kick DL all the way to where? Or cut T5 in half and let AA talk the far end (with the tunnel and checkin still in 4) and DL keep the close end?

    PS - anyone know why the tunnels are closed? Can't be a real terrorism risk at this point, and it sucks that there is no behind security connection from T6-8 to T4 and T5 anymore. Opens up more dining options and spotting opportunities.
    Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
     
    commavia
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:25 am

    Quoting Travelin man (Reply 30):
    Given AA's constraints in a great (but packed)
    T4, I would think T5 would be a natural extension for them.

    I don't think AA wants any part of T5. They have been able to cut millions in costs annually by consolidating all their LAX operations at T4. In addition, while T4 is packed and bustling most of the day, and AA has thus raised gate utilization and gate scheduling to a high art form, I still don't really see too much of a need for AA to get gates in T5, especially now that they don't need the INS arrivals area there, as T4 now has its own which is brand new.

    Quoting Travelin man (Reply 30):
    Also, there is still (I believe) an underground walkway connecting T4 & T5 inside security, which would make connections easier.

    I know there is an underground tunnel linking T4 with TBIT, but I was unaware of one linking T4 and T5.

    Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 33):
    Or cut T5 in half and let AA talk the far end (with the tunnel and checkin still in 4) and DL keep the close end?

    That would be highly innefficient. Keeping check-in in the huge AA ticketing lobby would be fine, but having to then get people through T4 security, and then down to and across the tunnel to T5, or having them check-in in T4 and then running over to T5 to go through security.

    Personally, while -- as I said in another post -- I doubt it will happen, I think that AS/QX moving over to T5 and consolidating all of their operations there, really close to AA, would be a better move. And, if there is indeed a tunnel between T4 and T5, that would make AA-AS/QX connections at LAX much easier and keep them inside security.
     
    ikramerica
    Posts: 13730
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:32 am

    What about, assuming there is a tunnel, using T5 for Eagle and occasional weather delay MD80 spill over for DFW/ORD flights.
    Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
     
    commavia
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:34 am

    Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 35):
    What about, assuming there is a tunnel, using T5 for Eagle and occasional weather delay MD80 spill over for DFW/ORD flights.

    Eagle has their own beautiful, relatively new remote terminal over by the AA hangars that handle's Eagle's continually shrinking LAX operations fine.

    As for DFW/ORD flights -- I don't see AA moving any of those flights over to T5 as they can handle them just fine in T4.
     
    ikramerica
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:38 am

    Quoting Commavia (Reply 36):
    As for DFW/ORD flights -- I don't see AA moving any of those flights over to T5 as they can handle them just fine in T4.

    On normal days, but when there are long delays out of DFW and/or ORD due to weather, things get backed up. I said spillover, not regular ops.

    And despite the beautiful satellite terminal, a connected terminal is always preferred!
    Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
     
    AAgent
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:40 am

    Quoting Commavia (Reply 36):
    Eagle has their own beautiful, relatively new remote terminal over by the AA hangars that handle's Eagle's continually shrinking LAX operations fine.

    Commavia,

    Is there a good reason why American Eagle's LAX operations are shrinking? I'm interested to know.

    Best Regards,
    AAgent
    War Eagle!
     
    commavia
    Posts: 9628
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:52 am

    Quoting AAgent (Reply 38):
    Is there a good reason why American Eagle's LAX operations are shrinking? I'm interested to know.

    A few reasons. First, the yields on these flights just aren't what they used to be. Since 2000, a few LAX Eagle markets -- namely Bakersfield, Carlsbad and Palm Springs -- have been dropped, while a few prop markets -- Las Vegas, San Francisco and San Jose -- have either been transitioned to mainline or RJ flying. Second Eagle is facing an uphill battle from SkyWest, which has more feed from United's slightly larger operation, and just has a larger presence in the region.

    That being said, I think the decline in prop flying we've seen in LAX is probably not going to shrink much more. The cities Eagle is now serving from LAX with SAABS -- Fresno, Monterrey, San Luis Obispo, San Diego, Santa Barbara -- all seem to be hanging on fairly well, and Eagle's RJ flying from LAX to San Jose (plus limited flights to San Diego, San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara) all seem to perform alright.

    Some have speculated the perhaps a few years down the line, AA may move all of its LAX Eagle SAAB feed over to Horizon Air Q300/Q400 flying. Who knows ...
     
    AAgent
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Sat Oct 15, 2005 3:14 am

    Commavia,

    As always, your posts are both informative and thoughtfully presented. Thank you for the information, it's very much appreciated.

    Best Regards,
    AAgent
    War Eagle!
     
    Boeing7E7
    Posts: 5512
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Sat Oct 15, 2005 6:59 am

    Now does everyone understand why airport expansion is now demand forecast driven, not what an airline wants driven????
     
    phollingsworth
    Posts: 635
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Sat Oct 15, 2005 9:28 am

    Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 6):
    You know one thing, and this is for sure karma can come back and bite anyone in the rear. If Delta becomes to cocky and starts pulling these little stunts, you can look for hefty delays due to "extended" Delta Airlines/Song taxi times at Los Angeles. Dont forget that their is more than one way for the LAX Airport to get back at Delta for its childish games. You could also expect TSA/Customs to not be available for some of Delta Airlines inbound flights from Mexico. Look for LAX to fight back and offer part of the existing, unused Delta gates to any airline willing to pay for a gate or two... Remember, payback and karma go hand in hand.

    As EA CO AS points out airlines are basically pushing to see what they can get away with. If DL convinces the judge that the bonds are being payed directly and not through a true lease then DL will be able to stop payment while it renegotiates its debt. LAX can challenge this. However, if the judge makes a ruling that allows DL to suspend payment any retaliation by the airport authority or the FAA/TSA/Customs can be construed as an act of contempt. The Federal agencies are really in a different league and have no direct interest into the fights between LAX and DL. If your LAX you generally don't want to piss off a Federal Judge, he can basically seize assets, place Federal agents to oversee your operations, etc. Once a party to a Federal Action you better play be the Judge's rules until you get the appeals court to stay or overturn them.
     
    LAXintl
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:02 am

    Quoting Commavia (Reply 34):
    I know there is an underground tunnel linking T4 with TBIT, but I was unaware of one linking T4 and T5.

    Actually there is a tunnel linking T4-T5-T6-T7. Goes back to the original satellite terminal setup that LAX had. Tunnels were shut shortly after 9/11 as they presented security issue incase of a breach at one terminal all the other terminal would have to be shut down or evacuated also. Tunnels are now basically only used by LAWA employees. As late as the early 90s there was a flower shop, and even barber shop located down there.
    A little bit of trivia, until the construction of TBIT in 1984, there was also a tunnel used by AA linking T-4 and their super bay hangar. It was big enough to allow for vehicles traffic.

    Quoting Commavia (Reply 36):
    Eagle has their own beautiful, relatively new remote terminal over by the AA hangars that handle's Eagle's continually shrinking LAX operations fine.

    The AE terminal is slatted to go bye-bye in either late 2006 or 2007, with taxiway reconfiguration work as part of the LAX master plan. The north-south taxiways behind TBIT will get moved further west.
    From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
     
    BHMNONREV
    Posts: 1209
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:35 am

    Quoting Laxintl (Reply 43):
    The north-south taxiways behind TBIT will get moved further west.

    Will this allow for gates to be constructed on the west side of the TBIT, which will be A380 compatible??
     
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    STT757
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Sat Oct 15, 2005 11:28 am

    Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 33):
    CO, DL and UA both have rights to T6 from way back

    The gates DL are using in T-6 used to belong to Eastern, they got those gate rights through Eastern's Liquadation. T-6 used to be CO and EA.

    Around '96 or '97 CO traded 4 gates at T-6 to UAL in exchange for 4 gates at Terminal A at EWR, that's how UAL came to T-6 at LAX and CO to Terminal A at EWR.
    Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
     
    laca773
    Posts: 2032
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:18 pm

    Quoting Commavia (Reply 28):

    Commavia, Thanks so much for all the information. I love reading your postings. I thought of the AS/QX switch to T5 mainly so that AS would have their own immigration facilities instead of having to use the overcrowded TBIT. BTW, how many jetways, and remotes does AS/QX have in T3?

    LACA773
     
    aaway
    Posts: 1236
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Sun Oct 16, 2005 4:33 am

    Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 33):
    Quoting Aaway (Reply 18):
    Regarding exclusive versus preferential gate usage here, LAWA will not acquiese to exclusive gate leases in the terminals that they (LAWA) control: T-3, T-6, TBIT.

    Can you explain what you mean a bit clearer? And who controls T2?

    Sure. Bear in mind this pertains strictly to gate usage. Beginning in the mid 90s, LAWA began to engage several tenant carriers in various terminals regarding the amendment of gate leases, or the outright turnover of excess gates. The primary purpose was to facilitate access to LAX by new entrant carriers, though the program has evolved somewhat whereby larger incumbents have benefitted.

    As detailed in STT757's post on the CO/UA gate trade, LAWA played a role in facilitating discussions. Also, LAWA renegotiated DL's lease circa '97/'98 whereby UA gained access to gates 67A, 67B, and 69A.

    CO and DL, being the incumbents in T-6, maintained exclusive use of gates under terms of amended leases. UA, being the "new entrant", was granted preferential usage of gates CO and DL freed.

    LAWA has sought to assert this policy in terminals affected reductions in flight activity and/or bankruptcies. Another example of LAWA asserting it right to allocate gates was when NW relinquished gates 37A/B, 38, and 39 in T-3, and when AA acquired TW affecting gates 33, 34, 35, and 36. All of the aforementioned gates reverted to 'shared basis' once leases were amended or expired. AS has sought to add gates for preferential use, but has had little success.

    As policy, basically, LAWA has not, nor will not grant exclusive gate leases to the more recent (circa mid 90's going forward) leasees of T-3 or T-6.

    Terminal 2 is controlled by the consortium of AC, HA, and NW, and is known as LAX-2 Corporation. This arrangement has proven financially lucrative for the partners, one of the reasons AC never moved to join UA.
    "The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
     
    LAXintl
    Posts: 20183
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:35 pm

    Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 44):
    Will this allow for gates to be constructed on the west side of the TBIT, which will be A380 compatible??

    Well the master plan does indeed has gates built on the backside of TBIT, however its somewhat unknown if that will ever come to fruition as its not one of the current green lighted projects.

    The taxiway redesign plan has been on the books for a while now would indeed help facilitate the development of gates on the backside of TBIT, however was primarily planned to help with A380 ops and also to mesh into other taxiway redesigns particularly off the 25R runway to help deal with continued runway incursion problems.

    Its still not certain however what AE will do once the current terminal gets demolished. I know AA has requested airport approval to use terminal gates for AE flights, however I'm not sure how much room AA really has to mount an AE operation as they have a very busy operation going as is at T-4. In addition LAWA regulations as currently written do not permit non jet, small commuter operations at terminal gates. However UA has been ignoring this the last few months after having moved Skywest into its T-8 gates, but thats another side battle going with LAWA.

    Quoting Aaway (Reply 47):
    Terminal 2 is controlled by the consortium of AC, HA, and NW, and is known as LAX-2 Corporation. This arrangement has proven financially lucrative for the partners, one of the reasons AC never moved to join UA.

    Indeed. LAX-Two Corp has been very lucrative to its owner airlines especially with the continued growth in carriers using the facility like recent addition of TACA. LAX-Two is now also considering going to an all common use ticket counters concept with FIDS screens which would help increase lobby utilization and allow for more airlines to operate at the facility versus the current static airline leased ticket counter set up. FIS service hours were also increased to as late as 11pm to help accommodate some of the TACA traffic and making the terminal even more attractive to other carriers.
    From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
     
    DLX737200
    Posts: 1617
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    RE: Delta Files Order To Stop Payment On LAX Facilitie

    Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:42 pm

    Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 4):
    LAX should (to the degree that it can) refuse to handle DL if DL succeeds in not paying rent at LAX.

    But they SHOULD wait until Monday afternoon, once I'm out of LAX on DL. HAHA  Silly

    -Justin

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