cslusarc
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Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:50 pm

In this thread we learned that ATA is discontinuing its services to BOS, EWR and MSP.

Could this open the door for WN to fly MDW-EWR and MDW-MSP? [I don't think that MDW-BOS is a good route for WN.]
--cslusarc from YWG
 
Aggieflyboi04
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:26 pm

MDW-MSP possible
MDW-EWR doubtful at best

my 2cents
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:13 pm

EWR is prone to many delays- not conducive to SWA's quick turns.... I don't think SWA would touch EWR with a 10 foot pole.
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
LUVRSW
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:18 pm

MSP-RSW MSP-TPA MSP-MCO MSP-PHX Time to put the last nail in the coffin of NW! Then WN can fly FAR RST BJI STC DLH TVF GFK EAU CWA GRB to MDW! Wishful Thinking
 
kcrwflyer
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:24 pm

Quoting LUVRSW (Reply 3):
Then WN can fly FAR RST BJI STC DLH TVF GFK EAU CWA GRB to MDW! Wishful Thinking

Amazingly, extremely wishful. I thought there was a minimum city size?
 
Kahala777
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:46 pm

Minneapolis:

Lets hope that they go for the throat of Northwest Airlines and invade the Minneapolis market. It is possible to see:

Baltimore - 5 daily
Chicago - 5 daily
Detroit - 5 daily
Kansas City - 2 daily
Las Vegas - 3 daily
Los Angeles - 5 daily
Oakland - 3 daily
Orlando - 3 daily
Philadelphia - 4 daily
Phoenix - 3 daily
Portland - 2 daily
St. Louis - 2 daily
Seattle - 2 daily

The above combination could easily only occupy 4 gates, and would not be that big of a gamble since MSP needs more flights with all of the Northwest Airlines cutbacks and what not.Northwest Airlines, is living in borrowed time and day in and day out it is screwing over not only its employees but the city of Minneapolis.

Allowing Southwest Airlines into the MSP market would allow a breath of fresh air for the people of MSP, since they are now being strongholded by Northwest Airlines, and its over the top ways of dropping its employees. If it turns out to be a nail in the Northwest coffin, so be it.

KAHALA777
 
NIKV69
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:52 pm

Quoting Tjwgrr (Reply 2):
EWR is prone to many delays- not conducive to SWA's quick turns.... I don't think SWA would touch EWR with a 10 foot pole.

Yes, EWR makes no sense for WN. Maybe JFK or LGA but never in NJ.

MSP in quite interesting, if and when NW goes belly up WN would definitely enjoy success there. I would love to see ISP-MSP SO I can connect with SCY MSP-IFP without flying out of JFK on SCY and dealing with the long lay over
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:52 pm

I agree with the consensus above - IMO, MSP would stand a better chance of WN than EWR. I can see them starting with 10-15 flights to their "non-hubs" (MDW, LAS, MCO) and then aggressively expanding over the course of a few years. MSP would be a good fit for them and for the people of the Twin Cities and surrounding areas.
 
aeroman62
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:35 pm

Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 4):
Amazingly, extremely wishful. I thought there was a minimum city size?

Jackson, Mississippi, Midland, Amarillo, aren't that big, and they are served by WN. It isn't the size of the city, it's the revenue potential and the service ability to match WN's operational requirements.
 
MFEFlyer
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:41 pm

and that also includes HRL, they only have a population of about 70,000-80,000. And they are still serviced by WN.
Valley Approach.....
 
PVD757
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:43 pm

I could see WN being interested in both MSP and EWR - no ones knows if it will ever get beyond interested but WN...
 
Tornado82
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:50 pm

Quoting Tjwgrr (Reply 2):
EWR is prone to many delays- not conducive to SWA's quick turns.... I don't think SWA would touch EWR with a 10 foot pole.

While there's no doubt EWR is very delay prone... Southwest is already in Philly. For instance yesterday, a day with heavier rains/winds in EWR, Philly's delays were still running about 60-90 minutes longer as per the FAA site.

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 5):
Philadelphia - 4 daily

Yep, add another few flights to the clusterf*ck.

Honestly, I could see ABE being Southwest's next not-really-there-but-we-act-like-it-anyways NYC/NJ Gateway.
 
MKEdude
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:05 am

If WN is serious about serving the New York market, then they have to expand beyond ISP either at EWR or JFK. As for MSP, it is clearly ripe for competition, but even in their current financial shape NW is not going to allow anybody to hone in on their turf. I think it would be tough for WN to make a go there.
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline." Frank Zappa
 
cloudy
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:21 am

Quoting Aeroman62 (Reply 8):
Jackson, Mississippi, Midland, Amarillo, aren't that big, and they are served by WN. It isn't the size of the city, it's the revenue potential and the service ability to match WN's operational requirements.

This has been explained before many times in many threads. The smaller metro areas that WN serves are served because they were added in the days before deregulation, or for political reasons(Jackson). Southwest insists that new cities it flies to be able to support 10 flights a day, right away. They have held fast to this rule. Most cities it has entered recently have a lot more demand potential than that. There are many smaller cities that would love to have WN, but they are indeed pipe-dreaming. Southwest has niether the equipment nor the business model to serve these destinations. Once the 737-500's go (I don't know when that will be), it is possible that many smaller destinations within Texas may be dropped.

Airtran and now Jetblue (with the E190) are going after some of these markets, not Southwest. They can make money on fewer flights per day, and have smaller aircraft.
 
kcrwflyer
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:17 am

Quoting Aeroman62 (Reply 8):
Jackson, Mississippi, Midland, Amarillo, aren't that big, and they are served by WN. It isn't the size of the city, it's the revenue potential and the service ability to match WN's operational requirements.

Coudy said exactly what I was going to.  Smile
 
Tornado82
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:48 am

kcrw: quit skipping school to post on A.net (haha jk)
 
aviatortj
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Sat Oct 15, 2005 8:05 am

Quoting MKEdude (Reply 12):
As for MSP, it is clearly ripe for competition, but even in their current financial shape NW is not going to allow anybody to hone in on their turf. I think it would be tough for WN to make a go there.

I'd love to watch that fight go down. The press around here somehow has already painted WN as the world's best airline. Throwing in Kahala's routes would be a big cut into NWA.
 
ntspelich
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Sat Oct 15, 2005 9:53 am

Word on the street is that LGA could be a possibility depending on DL and US's financial futures.

NTS
United 717 heavy, you're facing the wrong way. Any chance you can powerback to get off of my deice pad?
 
N908AW
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:56 pm

Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 4):
Amazingly, extremely wishful. I thought there was a minimum city size?

Ever heard of JAN? Most of the cities listed up there were functioning at a level equal to JAN pre-WN.
'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
 
wedgetail737
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:01 pm

Does MSP have the gate space to handle WN right now? Just curious.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:08 pm

Not even WN would have the resources to drive NW out of business and even if they did come up to MSP they still couldn't touch NW much more so than did TZ. Contrary to what many in the press and at DAL would like people to beleive, not everyone loves WN's service.
 
aviatortj
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:18 pm

As ATA Leaves MSP, NWA Ups Fares

This article suggests AirTran as the one to fill the void on MSP-MDW. I don't know where I'd put my money. Something tells me WN is in MSP's cards more now than ever.
 
pilottim747
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Sat Oct 15, 2005 3:18 pm

It'd be nice to see FL doing MSP-MDW again. SY used to fly MSP-ORD so that'd be ok too.

Quoting AviatorTJ (Reply 21):
Something tells me WN is in MSP's cards more now than ever.

That'd be something else.

pilottim747
Aviation Photographers & Enthusiasts--Coordinate your life.
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Sat Oct 15, 2005 3:37 pm

I wouldn't be surprised to see jetBlue use the opportunity to start MSP-JFK 190 service.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
Aggieflyboi04
Posts: 164
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Sat Oct 15, 2005 3:44 pm

Quoting Cloudy (Reply 13):
Once the 737-500's go (I don't know when that will be), it is possible that many smaller destinations within Texas may be dropped.

I don't see this happening, the only honestly small destination that WN serves in Texas is HRL but even there they have the traffic going to South Padre, I have flown this route even in winter months and the flights are full.


I think that WN is possibly seriously looking at MSP right now with ATA stoping service there.
 
Mir
Posts: 19108
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Sat Oct 15, 2005 3:52 pm

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 23):
I wouldn't be surprised to see jetBlue use the opportunity to start MSP-JFK 190 service.

Please...  pray 

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
aviatortj
Posts: 1694
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Sun Oct 16, 2005 6:47 am

Quoting Pilottim747 (Reply 22):
Quoting AviatorTJ (Reply 21):Something tells me WN is in MSP's cards more now than ever.
That'd be something else.

Turns out it was just the military charters to MSP this morning.
 
PanAm747
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Sun Oct 16, 2005 6:52 am

How many people said, "Oh, WN will never move into PHL - it's too delay prone and US would drive them out of business?"

Proving that an airline WON'T go into a market is impossible. ONLY time will tell.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
N908AW
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Sun Oct 16, 2005 7:44 am

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 19):
Does MSP have the gate space to handle WN right now? Just curious.

Last WN-MSP offer was for 10 gates and MSP didn't have it...
'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
 
iowaman
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Sun Oct 16, 2005 7:56 am

Quoting N908aw (Reply 28):
Last WN-MSP offer was for 10 gates and MSP didn't have it...

Interesting, since WN usually only starts cities with around 10 flights a day and expands from there, I guess they want plenty of room for expansion if needed.

If they did start with 10 flights a day I could see something like the following:

5x MDW
2x BNA
1x LAS
1x PHX
1x BWI
 
n808nwatmsp
Posts: 168
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Mon Oct 17, 2005 5:43 am

Quoting N908aw (Reply 28):
Last WN-MSP offer was for 10 gates and MSP didn't have it...

What about at the HHH Terminal? I'm sure that there would be plenty of space for WN to move in.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:41 am

Although I have little time to post these days, I continue to lurk and will chime briefly into this one. Where are our NWA experts? I'll try to take their part along with my own pro-LCC outlook, and offer some thoughts.

If WN enters MSP, it will be extremely costly to establish themselves. I've long said that at some point WN's accountants may determine it's worth the cost. If they do, WN will establish themselves at MSP, and they'll thrive just fine. But we all know how fiercely NW defends its markets, and they'll make it as costly as possible. Also, the fact that WN has kept a low profile in DTW, indicates that they seem to prefer to avoid a battle with NW.

A WN entry at MSP would, IMO, hardly be a "coffin nail" for NW. NW runs a huge number of spokes at MSP, with many flights to small airports, that WN would not replicate. NW has a huge FF base and probably contracts with a lot of local companies.

I haven't flown NW since their planes still had mostly Republic paint on them and DTW was a nightmare. But everything I hear is that NW's product has come a long, long way. Northwest has lots going for them, and would continue to have heavy traffic, even on WN-competitive routes. They'd just get lower yields the seats they match on those. O & D at MSP would rise sharply, and not just for WN.

Remember too, that the Feds will string a network carrier along in bankruptcy pretty much til the Second Coming--eg United. NW and its unions will get time to work out whatever they need. NW's route structure has lots of value, and MSP is a natural network-carrier hub. No other airport duplicates it. I for one don't see NW disappearing. Minnesota would win both ways if WN entered MSP.

The scenario that AviatorTJ suggests seems to me much more likely, though. AirTran is already established at MSP and probably could easily throw 3-5 dailies on the route.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Mon Oct 17, 2005 9:12 am

I don't think that we'll ever see WN at EWR, especially with JetBlue now serving its 5 Florida markets from the airport. We all know that WN loves to fly to MCO as one of its first airports, but with JetBlue serving MCO 5x and CO 8x (I think), there's more than enough capacity. It just wouldn't make sense for them to fly there.

If WN were to enter LGA if - G_d forbid - DL or another airline stumbles, I think B6 would have a bit of a crisis on its hands as it doesn't have much of a presence at LGA. I think that is just one of the many reasons that B6 is expanding there: in order to have its foot in the door if an airline is to leave LGA, and therefore stop any other airline from getting gates, slots, etc.

So will WN enter EWR? I think they're smart enough not to. JetBlue now has the ability to go into smaller markets with its E190's, which can offer more frequencies than WN but at the same capacity. And we all know that WN likes to have the most frequencies. It would certainly be an interesting battle between B6 and WN, but I just don't see it happening. B6 has essentially "claimed" NYC and invested too much money and resources in it to let anything happen to it.

As far as WN at MSP, I certainly hope so. Over the past few years LCC's have been penetrating major cities which had overpriced flights, and MSP is one of the very few cities left without a major presence of an LCC. WN could very well be successful there, especially with NW in BK. Not to diss NW in any way - they are a formidale (and sometimes relentless) competitor - but BK means watching expenses even closer than before.

JetBluefan1
 
ltbewr
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Mon Oct 17, 2005 12:05 pm

First of all, don't forget that WN is already in the NYC area, sort of, at Islip. There, they can have access to over 1.5 million Long Island residents, a market bigger than many they serve. They really have no competion there. As to PHL, they smelled the blood of bleeding US.
As to EWR, I seriously doubt it due to competion (especially with CO, Jet Blue and AirTran there); serious delays in bad weather and tough turnaround times.
As to LGA, see EWR as to competitors but take out CO and replace with US, DL, others. Could be problems with terminal space (which is very tight at LGA)Also a trouble spot for take off and landing delays, heavy traffic.
As to JFK, maybe, but for Jet Blue would put pressure on the politicans against them. You also have long taxi times at JFK, traffic conflicts with LGA and EWR and terminal space (unless took over the Saarisian designed ex-TWA terminal ?)
All three also are very expensive airports and markets to operate in including staff labor and operational costs.
 
Tornado82
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Mon Oct 17, 2005 12:17 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 33):

As to LGA, see EWR as to competitors but take out CO and replace with US, DL, others. Could be problems with terminal space (which is very tight at LGA)Also a trouble spot for take off and landing delays, heavy traffic.

Not to mention they'd have to acquire slots from someone
 
alphascan
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:04 pm

Interesting logic on this thread.

The logic spewed seems to be that since ATA, WN's code share partner couldn't make a go of the MSP/MDW route competing against NWA, WN will take it over.

What are you people smoking? It would be a lot more likely that WN would enter the MSP market had ATA been successful feeding WN's MDW hub.

There are plenty of open gates for WN at the Humphrey Terminal whenever they want them...and yet where are they?

WN will be in CLT long before they enter MSP.
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
jerion
Posts: 230
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 12:59 am

RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:48 pm

As mentioned in previous posts. AirTran jumped on the MSP-MDW routes when ATA announced their pull out. I'm still hoping to see WN head into MSP soon.  Smile

AirTran to fly from MSP to Midway

Associated Press
Oct 17, 2005

MINNEAPOLIS - Orlando, Fla.-based AirTran Airways announced Monday that it will begin offering four daily flights between MSP and MDW starting Dec. 6.

The announcement came about a week after ATA Airlines announced that it was leaving the Twin Cities market. Northwest Airlines Corp. responded by raising its fares on the route.
L10/D9S/D10/M80/M88/732/733/734/735/73G/738/72S/757/762/763/320/319/318/ERJ
 
ORDagent
Posts: 580
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RE: Will WN Fly To MSP Or EWR

Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:31 pm

Hooray for FL!! It's great to see that the LCCs such as FL are nimble enough to enter a market when the opportunity presents itself. I just hope that they can do this profitably.

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