KarlB737
Topic Author
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PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:02 am

Courtesy: Bloomberg News

Philadelphia Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...10000103&sid=aXGzMW98AaDE&refer=us
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:08 am

I have a GREAT idea...take a referendum of all of these clowns, and then whoever votes no, simply bulldoze their house under whatever clause it is that allows them to...
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:42 am

``I go to sleep to the roar of airplanes flying over my house and I wake up to the same roar,'' said Edward Vanderslice, 67, a retired machinist from Wilmington, Delaware. ``The airport's lack of planning shouldn't destroy my quality of life.''

The AIRPORT'S lack of planning?!?!?

The airport has been there for 50 years, the lack of planning was the developer who built in the flight path and the homeowner who bought the place. Buyer beware.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
7e72004
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:46 am

I agree UALPHLCS...the person who buys a house near an airport should know that it is noisy and there is the poss. of expansion. If you don't want the noise...then DONT live near an airport!
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
RC135U
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Sun Oct 16, 2005 11:47 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 2):
``I go to sleep to the roar of airplanes flying over my house and I wake up to the same roar,'' said Edward Vanderslice, 67, a retired machinist from Wilmington, Delaware

He must be a light sleeper - Wilmington's maybe 18-20 miles from PHL.
 
crownvic
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:02 pm

I am still trying to figure out why all these people complain about aircraft that all meet Stage III noise requirements. In fact, a good percentage of a/c operating in and out of PHL qualify for the future Stage IV noise restrictions. Like we have all said 1,000,000 times before; If you don't like the noise, don't live in area where an airport has been for 65+ years!
 
andz
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Sun Oct 16, 2005 4:14 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 2):
``I go to sleep to the roar of airplanes flying over my house and I wake up to the same roar,''

WTF is he complaining about, he says himself he goes to sleep!
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
7e72004
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Mon Oct 17, 2005 12:52 am

My previous stance on this topic still stands  Smile, but there are many i am sure that would not have been able to see the amount of traffic, flights, airlines, etc 65 years ago. It is one of those things that some can't see that far into the future. If i bought a house by PHL 65 years ago i probably would not have thought that PHL would have the amount of traffic it has now or the amount construction that has happened. BUT, like i said before, i still stand by my previous post  Wink
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
supa7E7
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:36 am

PHL quite obviously needs a runway reconfig. No amount of whiny longtime neighbors / random distant complainers changes that.

PHL needs capacity and weather robustness.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
PHLBOS
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:08 am

From the article bold emphasis added:

''They fly so low I can read the numbers on the planes,'' Amy Pollock, 43, who lives in Ardencroft, Delaware, said at a Sept. 21 hearing that drew about 70 residents, including Vanderslice. Planes come at under 2,000 feet, below the ceiling set by the FAA, rattling her windows, she said.

If the planes are indeed flying below the FAA ceiling, then it's more of a pilot's operations issues. Heck, if she were a spotter, she'd probably would love being able to read the tail numbers.

Southwest has driven down one-way fares to U.S. cities from Philadelphia by a quarter, airport officials estimate. New York- area residents, unable to fly Southwest from JFK, La Guardia or Newark, were traveling two hours to Philadelphia to do so, the New York Times reported in March.

Before WN came to PHL in May 2004 (btw, the article erroneously listed WN starting PHL service in May 2001); many Delaware valley residents drove down to BWI to either fly WN or get lower fares from other BWI carriers courtesy of competition from WN. Sounds like history is repeating itself.

FYI, the plans in question and the meeting are referenced in the below-thread:
PHL Plan

From the article:
Some expansion opponents suggest that Philadelphia bring planes in along the Delaware River or divert traffic to regional airports such as Lehigh International near Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, or Atlantic City, New Jersey.

SJTA along w/NK are already planning a sizable terminal expansion over at ACY. Regretably, ABE lost some of its thunder when WN chose PHL over it; but that's not to say that they can't expand or at least get another sizable carrier there. B6 perhaps? Although residents have given LNAA officials some considerable grief every time they talk about expansion in years past.

Love the article's final sentence.
Vanderslice had a more radical solution: ''We need another airport.''

And just where can one be placed? And in the wwwwaaaaayyyyy off chance that if a site is even chosen and one gets successfully built; Vanderslice will be long gone before a new airport gets its first plane landing.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
MarshalN
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:53 am

And these people think they have it tough?


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jean-Gregoire Marin

 
Jalto27R
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:23 am

``They fly so low I can read the numbers on the planes,'' Amy Pollock, 43, who lives in Ardencroft, Delaware

I can read the numbers of the PHL aircraft landing from the 27's at my house, and they're at 2,100. Big deal, they aren't loud at all.

``The noise gets so bad that if I want to stand on my driveway and talk to my neighbor 50 feet away, we have to scream at each other,'' said Steve Donato, 37, a leader of PHL Citizens Aviation Watch and technical director for a Philadelphia museum. ``That's not the way I want to live my life.''

Ed (PHLApproach) Joe(forget his screenname, hahaha) and I were all at PHL, right under the planes taking off and landing, and heck, we could even talk without shouting. These people so badly overexagerate their "poor sad situation" that it seems like US Airways is doing bombing runs over their neighborhood or something. Look, I live right under the 27 approaches, and even being an aviation fan, not a sole person I know has ever complained. That's just because you get used to it. It's not that big a deal. People live with car traffic every day, and they do the same for air traffic. These people that are whining just want media attention, and gathering together in groups makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Mike
 
OPNLguy
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:29 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 10):
''They fly so low I can read the numbers on the planes,'' Amy Pollock, 43, who lives in Ardencroft, Delaware,

In case anyone is wondering, that's about 12.5 miles WSW of PHL...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:48 am

Quoting Jalto27R (Reply 12):
Ed (PHLApproach) Joe(forget his screenname, hahaha) and I were all at PHL

Mike,

Joe's screen name is Wagz. I would've loved to have headed out & joined you all there but as I told Joe, we got get the 60% Construction Document package on the 17-35 extension ready to be submitted to the DOA before mid-week.

I wonder how many of the younger critics (under 50) that griped about airplane noises wouldn't think anything of a much noisier dance club or rock concert setting where the music is constantly blasting your ears off for 2 to 3 hours straight.

I have one word for them... hypocrites. I wonder how many of them gripe about their vacation or business trip flights being delayed or stuck on the taxiways for 20 to 45 minutes waiting for takeoff. Hmmmmm.   

[Edited 2005-10-17 00:58:23]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
ikramerica
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Mon Oct 17, 2005 8:13 am

Wilmington is way too far away to matter. So's the 2000ft lady. Both are MAKING IT UP.

I live near the flight path for BUR and Van Nuys, and only occasionally is there a plane loud enough to hear in a manner that comes close to a nuisance. It's always an old business jet that doesn't meet Stage III, or a low flying propellor plane (one just flew over).

I live closer to BUR than these people, and the planes aren't at 2000 (though I don't know how PHL works). And Stage III/IV planes at that distance on approach are quiet! They aren't going to shake the dentures out of your mouth. On takeoff, if you live 12 miles away and the plane is at 2000ft, Houston, we have a problem.

The loudest, most annoying things around are the traffic helicopters leaving out of Van Nuys. They are even worse flying over the Santa Monica mountains, taking shortcuts over residential neighborhoods at a few hundred feet above the ground versus flying over the freeway passes.

And I can vouch for the freeway noise thing. I live 10 blocks from the 405, and even in the dead of night, if I go into the front yard, it's loud. Much more of a nuisance than planes.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
redngold
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Mon Oct 17, 2005 8:37 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 2):
``I go to sleep to the roar of airplanes flying over my house and I wake up to the same roar,'' said Edward Vanderslice, 67, a retired machinist from Wilmington, Delaware.

He's probably hearing those noisy ANG flights from ILM, not passenger aircraft from PHL.  hissyfit 
Up, up and away!
 
PHLBOS
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Mon Oct 17, 2005 8:46 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
Wilmington is way too far away to matter. So's the 2000ft lady. Both are MAKING IT UP.

A 2000ft. lady? That'd be a sight to see.  Silly

In all seriousness, on 9R approaches, the planes do indeed pass over Wilmington and basically run parallel w/I-95. Someone commenting on planes flying lower than usual on landing approaches is a legitimate concern.

As I stated in the other thread, I along with a co-worker who's an airport planner and had many years experience as an airport manager for some of the smaller airports attended Sept. 22 FAA meeting regarding the PHL-CEP-EIS held in Folsom, PA; the night following the Sept. 21 Delaware meeting. Before the actual meeting took place, my co-worker was talking w/one of the FAA officials (might've been Susan MacDonald). From what my co-worker was told, the Delaware meeting was a fairly lively meeting in which most of the concerns were regarding existing noise as opposed to the impact that the 3 actual proposals would have. My co-worker mentioned to Susan that some pilots do sometimes come in a little lower than the FAA ceiling (which would increase noise on the ground) even on a clear weather day and that when he was a manager for a small airport (I forget which one) and when a similar issue came up, the pilots and/or the airlines would be notified and the low approaches would stop within 30 days... problem solved. However, he stated that with a smaller airport; everybody (airport officials, airline pilots, airport employees) knew eachother and things were addressed more quickly. But with an airport operation the size of PHL, that's no small task (how many different pilots are there?). I guess the Delaware meeting turned out to be a catch-all resident gripe fest.

Where I take issue with the NIMBYs is the fact that (as many A.netters mentioned here) they are equating the current noise problems as if airlines were still flying noisy (non-hushkitted) DC-9s & 727s. This is probably the perception from most of the older (55+) residents. The fact that they moved into an area knowing full well that they were either near an airport or under its approach that existed for generations and yet they gripe about the noise. As I stated before, I wonder how many of them on a return flight to PHL that was approaching 9R would look out the port-side windows and say, "Hey, I can see my house from here!" They're probably not thinking about the noise then.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:32 am

I line under the flight path of 17/35 on the Jersey side. Planes fly over all the time. I get MORE noise from the Jersey Turnpike than I do from the airplanes.

I go back to my original statement, PHL was there first. People CHOOSE to live under a flight path, if you don't want to live there move it's a free country. Most people however, don't even notice the noise.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
Carpethead
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:42 am

If I recall, US reg planes don't have regs placed under the wing, so unless ones has serious binoculars, its kind of hard to read them off.
 
7e72004
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:43 am

if you live there long enough...most people will get used to it...much like living by the "L" in Chicago...at some point you will just be able to "fade it out." My grand parents used to live in New Jersy just under the flight path of the C-141s or those huge jets that would fly over for practice in/out of McGuire Air Force Base....and i got used to them when i would visit...kind of cool actually  Smile
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
Tornado82
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:13 pm

Vega, just for you... by request... (I was out of town and away from a.net all weekend)

Quote:


Some expansion opponents suggest that Philadelphia bring planes in along the Delaware River or divert traffic to regional airports such as Lehigh International near Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, or Atlantic City, New Jersey.

Vanderslice had a more radical solution: ``We need another airport.''

I agree with Vanderslice, but the problem is where to put the damned thing. ABE is just too far for PHL residents/businessmen. Sure you'd get the WN-lover types who'll drive 60 miles to save a dollar, but the transportation issues for normal people from within the city limits of PHL and the general Philly area business centers to drive up to ABE are too overwhelming... the same as people like me won't regularly drive down to PHL from the Lehigh Valley. I-476/Turnpike NE Ext./Blue Route (whatever you want to call it) sucks, especially south of Quakertown. Likewise, US 22/Lehigh Valley Thruway which would get those people from the Turnpike to ABE is already extremely overcrowded with no room to widen it (an ongoing debate here in the Valley) The money it would cost for a rail system all the way up to the Lehigh Valley is probably more than building a new PHL (Bulldozing another chunk out of South Mountain would be a bit expensive, and the existing I-476 right of way isn't wide enough to even add lanes to, let alone parallel a rail line, even here in the Lehigh Valley areas of Emmaus/Lower Macungie/ Whitehall.. let alone down in the Blue Route areas of PHL in the tighter spots).

The only saving grace I could see, short term, for PHL, would be that well-beaten A.net rumor of WN skipping town and going to either ABE or ACY. We definitely have the room for them here at ABE, and their customers are the types who'll drive long distances... after all... look at the airports they serve New York City from (of which ABE would be another one, too). Otherwise remember, this is the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Regardless of Ed Rendell's plans for Slot Machine revenues... the state just doesn't have the money for a new PHL, they don't even have money to properly finish half-built highways like the Mon-Fayette Expressway/Southern Beltway south of Pittsburgh or widen US 22/Lehigh Valley Thruway here... and Philly isn't known for sitting on mountains of cash either. You'd need one of the other counties, like Delaware, Bucks, or Chester to float the bonds and build the new airport... and in any area of affluence you'd hit too much NIMBY-ism, not to mention you'd need highway access.
 
runway27right
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Mon Oct 17, 2005 5:26 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 18):
go back to my original statement, PHL was there first. People CHOOSE to live under a flight path, if you don't want to live there move it's a free country. Most people however, don't even notice the noise

Have you seen some of those people? Some of them are older than PHL  Smile
But if they move, I'll buy! Aircraft sound is music to my ears, burning rubber & jet fuel, a bouquet to my nose.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 21):
The only saving grace I could see, short term, for PHL, would be that well-beaten A.net rumor of WN skipping town and going to either ABE or ACY

If WN did leave PHL (their not), that wouldn't solve a thing. The problem existed before WN arrived. I'm still on record stating that MORE GATES ARE NEEDED!

Quoting Jalto27R (Reply 12):
I can read the numbers of the PHL aircraft landing from the 27's at my house, and they're at 2,100

OK Mike, since you can read the Regs at your house, I expect a report on the PHL Yahoo Group, ha ha.
Keeping PHL Spotting Alive Daily!
 
PHLBOS
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Mon Oct 17, 2005 8:34 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 19):
If I recall, US reg planes don't have regs placed under the wing, so unless ones has serious binoculars, its kind of hard to read them off.

Some of the USx CRJs (not sure which regional carrier(s)) have the reg. no. listed along the upper-end of the grey underbelly; so it can be easily read just by looking up.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
Tornado82
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Mon Oct 17, 2005 9:33 pm

Quoting Runway27Right (Reply 21):
MORE GATES ARE NEEDED!

But then the planes still can't land nor take off efficiently, so who cares how many gates you have??? All that would do is add more to the line.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:12 pm

Quoting Runway27Right (Reply 21):
I'm still on record stating that MORE GATES ARE NEEDED!

You don't understand the fundemental problem then. I've seen nights were gates are open becasue it takes 20 minutes for a plane that landed to negotiate through the traffic to get to the gates.

I've seen nights were 60 planes are in line for takeoff.

We can get people on and off the planes just fine with the gates PHL has, We just can't get them of the ground quick enough. The process has to be streamlined in a major way. As it is I'll be well into middle age by the time PHL is fixed by the FAA's timetable.

[Edited 2005-10-17 16:23:27]
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
Tornado82
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:17 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 24):
We can get people on and off the planes just fine with the gates PHL has, We just can't get them of the ground quick enough. The process has to be streamlined in a major way

Exactly. Can't get them onto the ground quickly either, if it's an IFR type of day, or windy.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:49 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 24):
I've seen nights were gates are open because it takes 20 minutes for a plane that landed to negotiate through the traffic to get to the gates.

The single taxilane layout between most of the terminals (A-East, B, C, D, & E) doesn't exactly help matters either. I've been on a couple of flights that where we couldn't head to the gate (which was open) after landing or we couldn't pull out of the gate (departing flight) because another plane was still in the taxilane either coming in or being tugged out. This can cause some major terminal apron traffic and create a temporary gate shortage. An open/available gate means nothing if a plane can't get to it due to the ground traffic. This is especially true at the gates closest to the main terminal buildings.

Which is one of the reasons why some of the existing terminals will be modified/altered to allow for dual taxilanes between concourses regardless of which one of the two proposed airfield expansion schemes gets ultimately selected (the 3rd mid-field terminal concept will never see the light of day, IMHO).
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
runway27right
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:04 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 24):
You don't understand the fundemental problem then. I've seen nights were gates are open becasue it takes 20 minutes for a plane that landed to negotiate through the traffic to get to the gates.

Spending as much time at PHL as I do, I understand fully. I can't count how many times I've heard ATC telling multiple flights (mostly US) that there's no gate available. So those planes sit by clogging entrances and/or exits to taxi ways for the airlines that do have gates open. Hence the negotiating. Further dialog by ATC, will tell a landing flight that a particular taxiway is blocked by those 'waiting' US flights. It's all cause & effect.

But the major delay is not at all ground related and has been said here time & time again. It's the NE corridor airports (EWR, JFK, LGA, IAD, DCA, BWI) and weather that are the chief culprits.

An extra runway will ease the problem a bit. But not as much as they would hope. And once again PHL will suffer a black eye. Just like the Runway 26 waste of money. The planners didn't read the journals about the CRJ boom?

I know I read it. But they continued with RW26 with the DHC8's, etc in mind.

But as a photographer & Spotter, I love that runway  Smile

And as a side note, a US B757 landed on RW35 yesterday. This is far from a great photo, but to those who never saw it happen, there ya go.

757 on RW35


Paul
Keeping PHL Spotting Alive Daily!
 
PHLBOS
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:30 am

Paul,

I hope the anti-airport-exansion folks and NIMBYs don't see that photo; neither the FAA nor DOA told them that 757s were going to use 17-35.  
I would've loved to see the skid marks at the 17 end of the runway.

I do agree with you that the runway respacing & reconfiguration are only part of the PHL-CEP solution; additional terminals & gates plus dual taxilanes between concourses also need to come in play here. I believe the intent of each of the 3 proposed runway concepts is to nail down the runway locations first, then work everything else around it; the terminal enhancement/expansion, additional gates, plus other facilites (Sun Oil & UPS) and infrastructure relocations (railroad & Hog Island Road).

Side note: now that the DOA finally purchased (or leased) the land between 9R and Hog Island Road extension for the safety overrun area (this one was long overdue); do expect to see a relocated AOA fence along where Hog Island Road encircles Runway 9R within the next year or so.

[Edited 2005-10-19 00:31:50]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
PHLapproach
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:04 am

I'm gonna talk to the guys I know down at the Tracon/Tower soon about what they think can be done. I really think the whole runway issue can be eased while running West Operation by landing and departing on both 27L and 27R. I know it can be done. I was talking to Joe (Wagz) when we were down there on Sunday. I talked to him about what I think would work for West Operation. I think it would avoid a backup in some major areas of congestion if they landed and departed 27L/27R, basically pull an MSP. Then when the 35-17 extenstion, start running LAHSO for 17. And start using 17 the majority of the time over 35 due to the ILS capabilities, also for the fact that they can then hold short of 27R. I can't think about what else I said on Sunday. But those are ways in which the backups can be minimized.
 
wagz
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:47 am

Leave it to Ed and his ATC-orreineted mind to come up with good ideas. Chris, how much runway is there supposed to be between the new end 17 threshold and 27R intersection? Looking at a facility diagram, right now it looks like we get about 4000 feet from 17 to Taxiway K. I assume, we would get another 1000 feet from the extension. 5000 feet from 17 to K would be enough for certain aircraft under Ed's LAHSO (Land and Hold Short) plan. It would essentially be the same ammount of real estate as 26, so biz jets and RJs could at least fit in there.

And Chris, what areas will the 9R fence be moved at? All along that end of the road, or just that big open field with the ILS/lights at the end of 9R? That current fence is really great for photography at that end. Guess we all better get some good shots down there now.

And Paul, your photo has now made it possible for me to award that as the "most insane aicraft movement at PHL". Wish I was on that 757. Talk about hard braking and reverse thrust!

Joe
I think Big Foot is blurry, Its not the photographers fault. Theres a large out of focus monster roaming the countryside
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:00 pm

Quoting Wagz (Reply 30):
Paul, your photo has now made it possible for me to award that as the "most insane aicraft movement at PHL". Wish I was on that 757. Talk about hard braking and reverse thrust!

Actually I'm glad someone caught a picture of it being done. That's not the first time I've seen a 757 on 17/35. I've seen every aircraft up to the 757 land there.

Incidentally I wished I had a camera last week I swear I saw a 737 take off from 28. Now it could have been a BBJ but I was certain I didn't see any winglets.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:25 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 31):
That's not the first time I've seen a 757 on 17/35. I've seen every aircraft up to the 757 land there.

Incidentally I wished I had a camera last week I swear I saw a 737 take off from 28. Now it could have been a BBJ but I was certain I didn't see any winglets.

IIRC, Ed (PHLApproach) mentioned in an earlier thread that he did see a Hooters Air 757 do a 35 landing a few months back. I wonder if that plane and the US 757 that landed on Monday were full flights. Anyone know why the US 757 chose to land on 35? The runway won't be fully extended for another year or two. In August of 2004, Joe (Wagz) and a few others saw a 737 land on 26 as well.

Quoting Wagz (Reply 30):
Chris, how much runway is there supposed to be between the new end 17 threshold and 27R intersection?

The proposed distance from the new end 17 threshold and the centerline intersection of 27R & 17-35 will be roughly 5300 feet; about 600 feet longer than the distance from the centerline intersection to the current end 17 threshold.

Quoting Wagz (Reply 30):
And Chris, what areas will the 9R fence be moved at? All along that end of the road, or just that big open field with the ILS/lights at the end of 9R?

The relocated fence will start at where the current fence (which was just replaced about 3 years ago) makes a nearly 90 degree bend towards 9R; in other words, it will enclose the big open field. The main reason the fence wasn't placed along the road earlier was because the land that the ILS/lights weren't on airport property; I believe Westinghouse Corporation is still listed as the property deed owner.

When the relocated fence does get erected, I'm sure that there will be some (not familiar w/A.net or PHLAirline) that will say that the fence was relocated because of 9/11/01 security issues. My reply would be   . Plans to place a fence enclosure around those ILS/lights have been proposed since 1982. I have copies of the dated plans as proof of that in the office.

[Edited 2005-10-19 15:53:55]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:59 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 12):
In case anyone is wondering, that's about 12.5 miles WSW of PHL...

You guys really need to stop that scud running you've been doing.  Smile
 
US AIRWAYS
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Pl

Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:13 am

Usually when I have some downtime at work I like to go sit outside on F24 and watch the traffic. The first time I saw a 757 roar past in full reverse I almost fell off the beltloader! I have seen it happen a couple of times since then. A couple weeks ago I was on a fully loaded 734 from DCA that landed on 35.
Go Eagles!
 
PHLBOS
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:20 am

Quoting US AIRWAYS (Reply 34):
A couple weeks ago I was on a fully loaded 734 from DCA that landed on 35.

A 734 is one thing, since it's not that much larger than a 733 or 73G; but a 757...

Joe phrased it rather nicely:

Quoting Wagz (Reply 30):
And Paul, your photo has now made it possible for me to award that as the "most insane aircraft movement at PHL".
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
runway27right
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:47 pm

That's was the 3rd time I've seen a 757 land on 35. The winds were @310 at 10-15 gusts to 22. I couldn't tell how full the plane was.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 31):
Incidentally I wished I had a camera last week I swear I saw a 737 take off from 28. Now it could have been a BBJ but I was certain I didn't see any winglets

I presume you meant Runway 8. Runway 26 departures are not allowed.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 32):
The relocated fence will start at where the current fence (which was just replaced about 3 years ago) makes a nearly 90 degree bend towards 9R

That entire area is proof that 'protected Wetlands' doesn't matter. When I used to walk down that access road, when the main road ended at UPS, there was a sign and much greenery in that area with actual signs posted by Delaware County stating it was protected wetlands.

It used to be a rush to stand along the fence as a 747 or 777 went over head at the approach lights (pre-2001 of course). If anyone knows where I'm talking about, they'll tell you that 27 overhead approaches and the current RW 9 overhead approaches do not compare.

Paul
Keeping PHL Spotting Alive Daily!
 
PHLBOS
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:55 pm

Quoting Runway27Right (Reply 36):
That entire area is proof that 'protected Wetlands' doesn't matter.

All 'protected wetlands' means is that if you want to build something, be prepared to spend a lot of money and time to go through the permitting process. Wetlands issues are the main reasons why it takes so long for airport/airfield expansions take so long; example: it took nearly 8 to 10 years for Runway 8-26 to go from a marker line on a plan sheet to a fully-constructed strip of asphalt.

BTW, just where were those signs that you speak of? When I did a site-walk for the fence replacement job in early 2001 (the Hog Island Road extension wasn't built yet); I did not see any signs... at least along the south side of Runway 9R. On the north side of 9R, there is water channel that does cut through the 1000 foot limit of the Runway Safety Area (250 feet from the Runway centerline, both sides); is that the 'protected wetland'?

The current safety area extension plan calls for a partial relocation of the water channel, the earlier-mentioned fence relocation, and some modest regrading and drainage improvements.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
runway27right
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:31 am

Chris,

The two signs that were posted. One was as the old access road (which is still there) made its turn towards the approach lights. The other was in back of the small wooded area off the access road. They were very weather beaten, but still legible. They would be gone now, since all those trees and shrubs were now where the fence turns by RW9R approach.

I knew every foot of that area. As I was also an explorer-wannabe. I came across hunters tree stands, beaver dams, but the one thing I never found (Thank God) was a dead body.

I have a couple stories I'll tell you next time I see you.

Paul
Keeping PHL Spotting Alive Daily!
 
Tornado82
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:35 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 37):
All 'protected wetlands' means is that if you want to build something, be prepared to spend a lot of money and time to go through the permitting process.

Especially in PA, where even the state DOT has to pay the state DEP (Dept. of Environmental Protection) if they want to do roadway embankment rehabilitation adjoining a stream or wetlands. Trust me on that one, I did the maps and reports for dozens of those proposals last summer after the never-ending flooding in the western half of the state. It's like Ed Rendell taking money from his right pocket and putting it in the left. But God forbid, there might be a protected snake or something in that wetlands, what could we ever do? I'm surprised the DEP and other tree-hugging types don't go out with shotguns and shoot any hawks that are predators to the snake, or kill the snakes which eat owls and owl eggs, or kill the owls which kill wild turkeys in their sleep, etc. It's a never ending circle of special interests.
 
nkops
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:29 pm

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/n...ersey/story/5633248p-5650051c.html

This article was in the Atlantic City Press 2 days ago. ACY wants to relieve some of the capacity from PHL. They compare it to BOS and MHT. This will probably never happen, but interesting nonetheless
:evil:
 
PHLBOS
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:38 pm

From the article:

SJTA officials agree, and on Tuesday broke ground for a $7.1 million baggage-screening facility. The facility will house baggage-screening equipment that now impedes pedestrian traffic flow at its current location in front of ticketing and check-in counters.

The work also involves installation of new escalators that will take arriving travelers directly to the baggage-pickup carousel.

Federal money is paying for 90 percent of the $7.1 million project.

The SJTA also plans a parking garage for about 1,400 cars that officials say will finally provide sheltered parking and ease overcrowding in surface lots during peak travel times.

Other major terminal upgrades are planned by 2012, although how much of the work will be done depends on the fortunes of the airline industry.


More precisely would be that the major terminal upgrades/exapnsion are dependent upon the fortunes of Spirit Airlines. NK's the driving force behind the terminal project at ACY. ACY could be to NK what ISP is to WN.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
nkops
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:39 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 41):
More precisely would be that the major terminal upgrades/exapnsion are dependent upon the fortunes of Spirit Airlines

True... but it also depends on the SJTA's ability to attract service.. ACY is known for getting and losing service (UA , US , TW , CO 2x , NW). Right now OH is going down to 2 flights a day, so not holding our breath on that one. Hopefully, OH will stay and we'll see the airport grow
:evil:
 
vega
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:42 am

Quoting Nkops (Reply 40):
This article was in the Atlantic City Press 2 days ago. ACY wants to relieve some of the capacity from PHL. They compare it to BOS and MHT

Wonder why they don't consider using New Castle (Wilmington) as a reliever - especially for the commuter traffic. It has a 7000' and I believe that sometime in the past they actually had scheduled commercial flights. The airport seems to be perfectly situated for PA, DE and NJ travelers and only about 25 mi from PHL. I assume however that because of proximity (and identical weather patterns), the ATC problems wouldn't experience much relief.
We are but a moment in this vast Universe and when gone we will never have existed.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:55 am

Quoting Vega (Reply 43):
Wonder why they don't consider using New Castle (Wilmington) as a reliever - especially for the commuter traffic. It has a 7000' and I believe that sometime in the past they actually had scheduled commercial flights.

For a brief period during the '90s, Shuttle America had scheduled service at ILG. But again, having a 7000' runway is one thing; having a place to park the planes to load & unload is a whole separate matter. TTN saw 737 service w/Eastwind around the same time as well. But I think the real problem for both of these airports in terms of generating commercial traffic is lack of terminal facilities. IIRC, both airports have very limited terminal space. Had either place had a 4-gate or larger facility that can handle 737s, WN may have very well have chosen TTN or ILG over PHL.

As far as commuter traffic is concerned:
Since many DL, NW & US PHL routes are handled with both commuter/regional and mainline equipment; the thought of placing their commuter operations at the more remote airport, even as relievers, would create problems with their route structures & connections... especially w/US.

[Edited 2005-10-21 23:01:31]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
Tornado82
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Pl

Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:53 am

Quoting Vega (Reply 43):
Wonder why they don't consider using New Castle (Wilmington) as a reliever - especially for the commuter traffic.

As PHLBOS rightly says... Much of the basis of the PHL commuter traffic is connections. There's no way that especially US could ever move operations to ILG beyond operating it the same as they operate places like LNS, as a little outpost operation running with props (and chances are they'd be B1900's from PIT at that.) Now maybe WN or FL could move there as their connections through PHL are relatively minimal, IF they have a suitable terminal, ramp space, and parking for the pax. But seeing as some of the more affluent areas of PHL are in the opposite direction of ILG, I don't know if that would be the wisest move for them either.

Quoting Vega (Reply 43):
I assume however that because of proximity (and identical weather patterns), the ATC problems wouldn't experience much relief.

Proximity would have nothing to do with the ATC problems as long as the centerlines at PHL aren't on top of ILG's (no, looking at runway configs there). The root of the whole problem is the lack of ability to run simulataneous ILS approaches at PHL because of how jammed the runways are together. It's not like PHL has some massive weather events that we're not getting here in ABE, or that they're not getting at ACY, MDT, or LNS, etc. It's just that the limited room for approaches means that to maintain proper/safe/legal spacings, they can't land the number of planes that US et al want to land at any given time. Simple physics, especially when some slow-to-approach props get mixed in in front of the A330's or something... or those slow-to-climb CRJ's are struggling to get out of/above PHL's airspace. The only time similar weather would effect ILG/PHL together is when there is a SWAP going on, but at that time all the airports in the vicinity would be affected to varying amounts, and swaps are nowhere near as common as the nearly daily flow controls that PHL (along with EWR, and LGA) have experienced in this perpetually rainy October here in the Northeast.
 
crownvic
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:46 pm

nkops...I only hope that they do something with the rudest airport security people that I have ever encountered. On my last trip there, some jerk in a SJTA Jeep Cherokee would not allow anybody to spot or take pictures of any aircraft. Than ran me right off the property! With this sort of mentality at an airport with minimal air service, they won't get my money! I wish you luck!
 
nkops
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:57 pm

Quoting Crownvic (Reply 46):
I only hope that they do something with the rudest airport security people that I have ever encountered

Welcome to my world!!! It's not all the security people who are like that, but there are a few. It's a shame they have to be like that, and I apologize on their behalf... Not all of us ACY people are like that... trust me!!! They sometimes act like they are the security team at ORD or something.
:evil:
 
RC135U
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:17 pm

Quoting Nkops (Reply 47):
Welcome to my world!!! It's not all the security people who are like that, but there are a few. It's a shame they have to be like that, and I apologize on their behalf... Not all of us ACY people are like that... trust me!!! They sometimes act like they are the security team at ORD or something.

Are they overzealous because of the large FAA presence at ACY?
 
nkops
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RE: PHL Airport Booms; Neighbors Protest Runway Plans

Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:22 am

Quoting RC135U (Reply 48):
Are they overzealous because of the large FAA presence at ACY?

I don't believe so... the majority of the FAA facility there is for experimental purposes. Our inspectors actually come from PHL area. I think they are just trying to do their job, but get a little over-cautious sometimes.
:evil:

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