odie
Posts: 1581
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 8:55 am

MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:57 am

I have an upcoming flight with Air Canada (codeshare with United) from Miami to Los Angeles via Toronto, Canada. Does anyone know what are the immigration/custom procedures on one of these flights? Do I need to clear Canadian and American immigration and custom in Toronto? Thanx!

Regards,
~Odie
 
ahlfors
Posts: 1281
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2000 1:44 am

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:02 am

Yes, you'll need to clear both Canadian and American immigration and customs, and this will all be done at Toronto.
 
IslipWN
Posts: 1082
Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 1:05 am

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:05 am

Quick question- why did you choose that specific routing? I like it, but it sure is out of the way!
 
jcded
Posts: 197
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RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:20 am

thats an interesting routing, its borderline illegal because of Freedom VII Cabotage (even though 2 flight sgments). The only way they can get away with it is because it is a codeshare with United treating it as US metal. However I would like to know the legal specifics of this, normally reservation systems will avoid flights like this.
You breathe to do good and have fun.
 
cgagn
Posts: 290
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RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:48 am

Quoting Jcded (Reply 3):
its borderline illegal because of Freedom VII Cabotage

Could someone explain to me how that's bordering on illegal. Did I miss a thread where that was explained? Thanx

C-GAGN
Widebodies flown on:A330-300,A340-300,A380-800,747-400,767-200ER,767-300ER,777-200A,777-200ER,777-200LR,777-300ER,787-9
 
MarshalN
Posts: 1474
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:39 am

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:50 am

I believe there's some law that bars airlines from carrying domestic pax, and in this case he's a domestic pax in reality even though he's transferring through YYZ.

And man.... you're flying lots of extra hours for this flight. You better have a good reason to do this!
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
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RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:58 am

Oh, come on - I'd fly this routing for the chance to say I'd transferred through Toronto!!  Big grin
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24557
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:38 am

Quoting Cgagn (Reply 4):
Quoting Jcded (Reply 3):
its borderline illegal because of Freedom VII Cabotage

Could someone explain to me how that's bordering on illegal. Did I miss a thread where that was explained? Thanx

It is cabatoge - a foreign airline carrying a passenger between two domestic points. However, since the ticket is booked with UA codeshares, it is okay.
a.
 
luisca
Posts: 1530
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RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:20 pm

Is it cheaper to do it this way, or are you just doing it for the fun of it?
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
odie
Posts: 1581
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 8:55 am

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:43 pm

I am actually flying on UA's code (hence it will not violate Freedom VII Cabotage).

This routing is considerably cheaper than say via PHL (which is further than YYZ), IAD, DEN or ORD. I could fly via PHL for the same price, but I would need to fly out of MIA at around 7 am then (and I am flying on Nov. 27 - one of the busiest travel days in the US).

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 6):
Oh, come on - I'd fly this routing for the chance to say I'd transferred through Toronto!!

Word!  Silly

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 1):
Yes, you'll need to clear both Canadian and American immigration and customs, and this will all be done at Toronto.

I was just hoping that I would need to clear immigration and not customs as my baggage is going to end up in America anyway.
 
suv
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:52 pm

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:56 pm

Just checked and it's listed in Sabre as a valid connection:

5UA/AC 8537 F4 Y9 B9 M9*MIAYYZ 200P 459P 319 0 WQ DCA /E
E9 U9 H9 Q9 V9 W4 S9 T9 K0 L0
6UA/AC 8323 F4 Y9 B9 M9* LAX 825P 1034P 319 0 XT DCA /E
E9 U9 H9 Q9 V9 W4 S9 T9 K0 L0


Suv
 
ETStar
Posts: 1850
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:25 am

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:03 pm

C-A-B-B-O-T-A-G-E

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 6):
Oh, come on - I'd fly this routing for the chance to say I'd transferred through Toronto!! Big grin

I always knew you fancied our country Big grin In all seriousness though, if it were legal, it would have only cost us an arm and a leg to go from Vancouver - Toronto. We currently also have to give in our liver and kidneys.

Quoting OdiE (Reply 9):
I am actually flying on UA's code (hence it will not violate Freedom VII Cabotage).

Very interesting. Care to share the rates? Would love to know, and will definitely look at similar rates from Canada - Canada for next time.... hmmmm YVR-SEA-YYC? aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh...
 
flyboy7974
Posts: 1210
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RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:33 pm

years and years ago when i was in high, oh wow, well, i had booked a ticket like this to fly lax-cmh on air canada with a connection through toronto. knowing this was weird, but wanting to fly air canada and their only 747 flight at the time lax-yyz, i booked it on a travel website. when i got to the airport, you would have thought the sky was falling, and after almost two hours, (and missing the flight) and many phone calls made, the routing was not allowed, i was rebooked on ua to which i was bumped and then rebooked on delta. all in all, simply due to international and border regs i wasnt allowed to travel usa-usa with a connection outside of the usa.
 
odie
Posts: 1581
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 8:55 am

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:46 pm

Quoting ETStar (Reply 11):
Very interesting. Care to share the rates?

My roundtrip from LAX to MIA (inbound to FLL, out from MIA) cost me around $550. Flights that go via PHL/IAD will cost me around $700-$800.

Quoting Flyboy7974 (Reply 12):
all in all, simply due to international and border regs i wasnt allowed to travel usa-usa with a connection outside of the usa.

Did you book LAX-YYZ and YYZ-CMH separately?
 
ETStar
Posts: 1850
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:25 am

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:58 pm

Quoting OdiE (Reply 13):
Did you book LAX-YYZ and YYZ-CMH separately?

Are yours booked separately? If that is the case, then cabotage may not apply, and you may have to re-chekin at YYZ to keep yourself off the radar.
 
odie
Posts: 1581
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 8:55 am

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:13 pm

Quoting ETStar (Reply 14):
Are yours booked separately?

No. I booked mine as part of my MIA-LAX leg. It's UA's code not AC's code though.
 
alphascan
Posts: 795
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RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:37 pm

Years and years ago....when Flyboy tried this.....there was no code share. That is the difference.

However, I am surprised the pilot unions at (especially) AC and UA would allow this to happen. It is cabotage (cabbotage?) plain and simple.
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
bmacleod
Posts: 2502
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RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:56 pm

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 1):
Yes, you'll need to clear both Canadian and American immigration and customs, and this will all be done at Toronto.

Why would you have to clear Canadian immigration when you're not leaving the airport? The MIA flight would be in the US departure area, the same as the incoming LAX flight....  confused 
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
airbazar
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RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:32 am

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 17):
Why would you have to clear Canadian immigration when you're not leaving the airport?

Believe it or not Canada and the USA are 2 different countries therefore MIA-YYZ-LAX is made up of 2 international flights. And since YYZ does not have a segregated transfer zone you need to clear customs/immigration when you arrive in YYZ from MIA, and then proceed to US customs/immigration pre-clearance prior to boarding your flight into the US.

Besides the hassle of having to do this, you get a double whammy on international taxes/fees added to your ticket. So this can't possibly be a very cheap alternative unless AC keeps their base fares artificially low to make up for the difference.
 
sebwhite
Posts: 390
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RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:30 am

I recently paid $180 to fly LGA-YUL-BOS on a UA codeshare -- it was seamless!
 
AlekToronto
Posts: 321
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RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:37 am

You and your bags will definetly have to clear both Canadian and US Customs in Toronto. Depending on the time of day this will be painless or painful.
I would love to see the look on the Canadian customs goon..
Q: Where are you flying in from?
A: the USA
Q: Purpose of trip to Canada?
A: Just to transfer to a flight to the US.

I still get strange and jealous looks from Customs when coming back to Toronto after 2 days in Miami or 1 day in NYC.

cheers
Alek
 
sebring
Posts: 1321
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:08 am

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:37 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 18):
Believe it or not Canada and the USA are 2 different countries therefore MIA-YYZ-LAX is made up of 2 international flights. And since YYZ does not have a segregated transfer zone you need to clear customs/immigration when you arrive in YYZ from MIA, and then proceed to US customs/immigration pre-clearance prior to boarding your flight into the US.

Besides the hassle of having to do this, you get a double whammy on international taxes/fees added to your ticket. So this can't possibly be a very cheap alternative unless AC keeps their base fares artificially low to make up for the difference.

As best as I know, UA should not be selling domestic travel via Canada. The Canada-US bilateral does not allow for this. AC would like to negotiate such a provision for obvious reasons, because a Canadian carrier with lots of U.S. spokes could combine them into domestic connecting services and compete with U.S. domestic operators. I suspect UA's computer system has created (let's assume unknowingly) illegal pairings. UA won't complain. AC won't complain (UA sometimes uses AC lift, it's money in AC's pocket). And yes, at an airport like Toronto, if you stay in the sterile zone, you never enter Canadian territory and can re-board a U.S. bound connecting flight without passing through customs.

I do wonder if UA includes all appropriate taxes for a transborder combination, or if it is taxed like a domestic flight. For example is the local AIF included? Canadian and US security taxes? (Any taxes applicable for a transborder flight should be included).
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:02 am

Quoting AlekToronto (Reply 20):
I would love to see the look on the Canadian customs goon..

I much prefer Canadian customs agents (at least the bilingual girl at the Detroit-Windsow tunnel) to the US idiots who think I would take fresh fruits and vegetables from the UK to Southern California
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
MarshalN
Posts: 1474
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:39 am

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:46 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 22):
I much prefer Canadian customs agents (at least the bilingual girl at the Detroit-Windsow tunnel) to the US idiots who think I would take fresh fruits and vegetables from the UK to Southern California

EXACTLY! I've also gotten weird looks from people when they see my tea. I am a heavy drinker, and have packs and packs of tea with me whenever I travel back from Hong Kong/China. Tea, afaik, is allowed. They always think it's some other grass though (like I'll be carrying it in those packaging...). It's happened twice, and both times I just said "want me to brew you a cup?".

But anyway... YYZ is a bit of a pain to transfer. I don't like the airport much... YVR is way better  Smile
 
goaliemn
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:46 pm

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:10 am

Quoting AlekToronto (Reply 20):
I still get strange and jealous looks from Customs when coming back to Toronto after 2 days in Miami or 1 day in NYC.

I have a Canpass and love it.. eliminates any strange looks when going to yyz 2-3 times a month for pleasure  Smile
 
PlaneGuy27
Posts: 289
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:38 am

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:15 am

This tickets must be booked separately as it is completely illegal to sell a seat between two domestic points in the US. Even though it is a codeshare, it is illegal. that has no bearing.

Asiana Airlines a couple of years ago got into big trouble and was fined by the US DOT for selling cabotage tickets from Guam to the Mainland US via Seoul.

Air Canada for a while was pushing what is called Modified 6th Freedom operations over Toronto but the US is completely against it. This will never happen. You would think NW could really capitalize from doing the opposite (Selling Vancouver - Halifax over a connex in MSP).

I would bet that if Air Canada messed up and this is on one ticket you will find that your routing will be changed the day of departure.

I once flew Washington Toronto Honolulu and had two separate tickets. I got to YYZ, cleared Canadian Customs then proceeded over to the Transborder area and cleared US Immigration before leaving for HNL. ( I was originally on UA but my flights got cancelled and they hooked me up through YYZ).
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:21 am

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 23):
I've also gotten weird looks from people when they see my tea. I am a heavy drinker, and have packs and packs of tea with me whenever I travel back from Hong Kong/China. Tea, afaik, is allowed.

Tea is allowed and you handled them just the right way.

Quoting PlaneGuy27 (Reply 25):
I would bet that if Air Canada messed up and this is on one ticket you will find that your routing will be changed the day of departure.

It was sold by United as a United flight on Air Canada's metal, not by Air Canada.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
User avatar
N328KF
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Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:23 am

This isn't so strange. There was an article in the WSJ about how Delta was flying people from the Atlantic Provinces to places like Vancouver through the U.S.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
mikephotos
Posts: 2887
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RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:32 am

The fares do include the add'l taxes:



1 UA8537Y 20OCT Q MIAYYZ SS1 200P 459P /DCUA /E
OPERATED BY AIR CANADA
2 UA8323Y 20OCT Q YYZLAX SS1 825P 1034P /DCUA /E
OPERATED BY AIR CANADA
WP«
BASE FARE TAXES TOTAL
1- USD2092.30 35.00XT USD2127.30ADT
XT 6.40ZP 7.00XY 2.50AY 7.30CA
6.80SQ .50XG 4.50XF
2092.30 35.00 2127.30TTL
ADT-01 YUA
MIA UA X/YTO Q4.65 782.00YUA UA LAX Q4.65 1301.00YUA USD
2092.30 END ZPMIAYYZ XFMIA4.5



Mike
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
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RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 18):
Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 17):
Why would you have to clear Canadian immigration when you're not leaving the airport?

Believe it or not Canada and the USA are 2 different countries therefore MIA-YYZ-LAX is made up of 2 international flights. And since YYZ does not have a segregated transfer zone you need to clear customs/immigration when you arrive in YYZ from MIA, and then proceed to US customs/immigration pre-clearance prior to boarding your flight into the US.

Well the only reason you have to clear Canadian immigration is there is no sterile zone. If this were LHR, the UK immigrations people wouldn't give a toss about you as long as you stayed in the zone.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
robsawatsky
Posts: 477
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:07 am

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:37 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):
It was sold by United as a United flight on Air Canada's metal, not by Air Canada.

Quite irrelevant. The law applies to the "vessel". The codeshare is a commercial relationship between AC and UA that the law has no concern for. UA could be wet-leasing the aircraft and crew from AC and it still wouldn't be allowed. A foreign carrier simply is not allowed to transport passengers between two ports in the US in a continuous journey, which the transfer in YYZ doesn't legally interrupt in this case. The "fix" could be into the system by the time you travel and create problems for you - or it might just be ignored.

Yeh, it is a bit dumb because you can get around it by booking the two transborder segments separately, but that will probably cost even more.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:45 am

Quoting Robsawatsky (Reply 30):
UA could be wet-leasing the aircraft and crew from AC and it still wouldn't be allowed.

Then how do you explain various wet leases around the world that do international flights between countries that the wet leasing agent is non a citizen of?

Quoting Robsawatsky (Reply 30):
Yeh, it is a bit dumb because you can get around it by booking the two transborder segments separately, but that will probably cost even more.

Actually, I am betting this is how they priced out the ticket.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
kiwiandrew

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:55 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
Actually, I am betting this is how they priced out the ticket.

no - when you look at the fare below it definitely shows as a through fare MIA x/YTO LAX rather than as MIA YTO and YTO LAX

Quoting Mikephotos (Reply 28):
The fares do include the add'l taxes:



1 UA8537Y 20OCT Q MIAYYZ SS1 200P 459P /DCUA /E
OPERATED BY AIR CANADA
2 UA8323Y 20OCT Q YYZLAX SS1 825P 1034P /DCUA /E
OPERATED BY AIR CANADA
WP«
BASE FARE TAXES TOTAL
1- USD2092.30 35.00XT USD2127.30ADT
XT 6.40ZP 7.00XY 2.50AY 7.30CA
6.80SQ .50XG 4.50XF
2092.30 35.00 2127.30TTL
ADT-01 YUA
MIA UA X/YTO Q4.65 782.00YUA UA LAX Q4.65 1301.00YUA USD
2092.30 END ZPMIAYYZ XFMIA4.5
 
Feroze
Posts: 663
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:05 am

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:25 am

Quoting ETStar (Reply 11):
C-A-B-B-O-T-A-G-E

cab·o·tage Audio pronunciation of "cabotage" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kb-täzh)
n.

1. Trade or navigation in coastal waters.
2. The exclusive right of a country to operate the air traffic within its territory.


[French, from caboter, to sail along a coast, perhaps from Spanish cabo, cape, from Latin caput, head. See cape2.]

from: www.dictionary.com
 
odie
Posts: 1581
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 8:55 am

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:01 am

My taxes for my LAX-ORD-FLL//MIA-YYZ-LAX flight is $84.04.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 18):
So this can't possibly be a very cheap alternative unless AC keeps their base fares artificially low to make up for the difference.

It's a UA coded flight and this flight is significantly cheaper than other UA/US flights that go via ORD, PHL and IAD.

Quoting PlaneGuy27 (Reply 25):
This tickets must be booked separately as it is completely illegal to sell a seat between two domestic points in the US. Even though it is a codeshare, it is illegal. that has no bearing.

I have actually seen UA selling quite a few of those flights (UA code on AC's metal, via YYZ).
 
sebring
Posts: 1321
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:08 am

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:29 am

 alert  Hold the presses. I asked an AC contact and got this response.

It is perfectly legal for UA to sell any domestic routing, even via a Canadian airport, even partly or wholly on AC metal.

AC cannot sell a US domestic routing via a Canadian hub, and U.S. carriers cannot legally sell Canadian domestic routings via US hubs.

Moreover, as some carriers start cutting back their point to point domestic services, AC expects its two codeshare partners - UA and US - to make more use of domestic routings via Canadian connections. The only caveat they say is that the U.S originating carrier should make aware to the customer that in the event of a flight cancellation that leaves them stranded at a Canadian airport, they should have their passport so the airline can get them a hotel for the night.
 
MarshalN
Posts: 1474
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:39 am

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:53 am

Don't they need the passport anyway to get through the Canadian customs?
 
sebring
Posts: 1321
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:08 am

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:29 am

No, because they can switch flights in the sterile zone of Canadian airports. That's tantamount to US territory. However, I'd still take a passport.
 
odie
Posts: 1581
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 8:55 am

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:38 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 35):
I asked an AC contact and got this response

I e-mailed Air Canada and didn't get a response from them! Thanx for the info!
 
expatmatt
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 4:07 am

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:56 am

A few years ago (1999 or 2000), I used my UA miles to get a free ticket for DCA-ORD-MIA. When I got to DCA, I found out that because of weather in ORD, the inbound flight would be excessively late, cause a delay and I'd misconnect in Chicago.

Luckily I had my passport with me and I asked them to endorse the ticket over to AC who flew me DCA-YYZ-MIA. No problem, well, my bags didn't arrive at the same time I did, but I got to Miami that night and avoided getting stranded in ORD.

Moral of the story: always carry your passport when you fly. You never know when you may need it.  Smile
 
flyboy7974
Posts: 1210
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2003 4:35 pm

RE: MIA-LAX Via Toronto, Canada

Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:11 pm

no, when i booked the ticket, it was booked as one, that's why i was surprised that the computer even allowed it, and then i got nabbed at check-in

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