juventus
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DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:45 pm

With Mexico and Europe leading the way, Delta added a total of 50 new international routes, which enable the carrier to pass BA on Trans-Atlantic flying. source USAToday.com-money section
 
vv701
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:20 am

Quoting Juventus (Thread starter):
Delta added a total of 50 new international routes, which enable the carrier to pass BA on Trans-Atlantic flying

Several - perhaps many - years ago Delta ran a UK TV advertising campaign featuring a very large number of aircraft crossing the screen in Delta colours. The by-line was to the effect that they flew the Atlantic more times a day than any other airline. So it looks like they have regained their crown. But how you can do that when you are bankrupt seems to defy all logic, at leasrt to me!
 
Alitalia744
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:28 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 1):
Several - perhaps many - years ago Delta ran a UK TV advertising campaign featuring a very large number of aircraft crossing the screen in Delta colours.

great tv ad - featuring DL birds forming a bird formation then splitting up as they approached the EU!
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
gigneil
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:30 am

They're still hardly anywhere near their golden days. Sad

Quoting VV701 (Reply 1):
But how you can do that when you are bankrupt seems to defy all logic, at leasrt to me!

I don't understand what part you don't understand. They cut routes that don't make money and add ones that do.

Increasing revenue is more important, imho, than cutting costs.

N
 
positiverate
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:51 pm

This reminds me of when DL first took over PA's Europe operation. They had some great routings back then. My favorite was the L15 service that went CLE-DTW-LGW.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:07 pm

Quoting Juventus (Thread starter):
source USAToday.com-money section

Here's the story.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/biztravel/2005-10-18-delta-usat_x.htm
Made from jets!
 
HunUtazo
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:19 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 3):
They cut routes that don't make money and add ones that do.

That's the problem, they don't....





...and most probably won't.
dude
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:03 pm

Quoting HunUtazo (Reply 6):

That's the problem, they don't....





...and most probably won't.

Um, what leads you to that assumption? Care to further elaborate?
 
UTA_flyinghigh
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:10 pm

Anyways JFK-SNN-DUB is a great move and will add healthy competition to that market. No more pesky CO 752's accross the pond for me !

UTA  checkeredflag 
Fly to live, live to fly - Air France/KLM Flying Blue Platinum, BMI Diamond Club Gold, Emirates Skywards
 
bhxdtw
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:40 pm

what are the english destinations ?!?!
please let it be BHX, please let it be BHX !!!


preferably with a MD-11 / 777 / anything with engines...
 
UTA_flyinghigh
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:47 pm

Quoting BHXDTW (Reply 9):
preferably with a MD-11

As they have retired the MD-11 I'm afraid this won't be happening.

Quoting BHXDTW (Reply 9):
anything with engines...

AFAIK DL does not have gliders in their fleet...but I may be wrong  Silly

UTA  checkeredflag 
Fly to live, live to fly - Air France/KLM Flying Blue Platinum, BMI Diamond Club Gold, Emirates Skywards
 
vv701
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:37 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 3):
don't understand what part you don't understand. They cut routes that don't make money and add ones that do.

Increasing revenue is more important, imho, than cutting costs.

One part I do not understand is who lends you the money to put the infrastructure in place to open routes to eleven new destinations when you are bankrupt. Another part I do not understand why DA management did not do this without the advantages of Chapter 11 Protection and how they can suddenly find a solution to all their problems, announce it and start to implement it only days after going into Chapter 11 Protection. Or am I just being cynical?
 
mainMAN
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:42 pm

Quoting BHXDTW (Reply 9):
what are the english destinations ?!?!
please let it be BHX, please let it be BHX !!!

Afraid not, it's JFK-MAN and ATL-EDI.

I'm slightly envious of your AI schedules, and the possibility of Jet too, so it's all swings and roundabouts!
 
DLPMMM
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:00 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 11):
Or am I just being cynical?

Yes, you are being cynical.

The main infrastructure (the aircraft and crew) are already in place. I am sure that the destination staffing (CSAs and baggage handling) are contracted out. The gate space and lounge facilities can be rented with little or no up front costs. All you have is a bit of CSA training to the contracted company (which the contractor my eat the cost of) and the upfront costs amount to some Delta signs and some advertising (which the just got a bunch of for free with this press release).

These new routes should certainly bring in alot more revenue than the domestic routes these aircraft were deployed on.
 
UN_B732
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:05 am

They mention Ukraine, do they mean KBP? They also mention Hungary, BUD?
All they need now is BEG
What now?
 
HunUtazo
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:28 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 7):
Um, what leads you to that assumption? Care to further elaborate?

Same old problems....

....system, hub limitations, o/d, etc.,.
dude
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:56 am

Quoting HunUtazo (Reply 15):
Same old problems....

....system, hub limitations, o/d, etc.,.

Now this really helped explain a lot  Yeah sure .
 
boysteve
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:46 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 11):
Or am I just being cynical?

Like many Europeans I do not fully understand Chapter 11 protection, but I certainly don't like what I do know. Basically taxpayers money is used to stop an insolvent company going under and protect it from its creditors. Delta (effectively subsidised by Chapter 11) has over taken BA (a free standing profit making company) on transatlantic routes. This is not the free market that the US tries to tell everyone else it embraces.

No doubt there will be some backlash from a few American friends on here with regard to my free market comment, but I stand by it 100%.
 
SRT75
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:07 am

Quoting Boysteve (Reply 17):
Basically taxpayers money is used to stop an insolvent company going under and protect it from its creditors.

This is not really true. Taxpayer money funds the court system -- but this is a negligible cost of bankruptcy.

The attorneys (who get paid first) are paid from company assets, and creditors are the ones who get screwed. They get no taxpayer money for the extra $0.90 when they compromise their claims at $0.10/dollar. There is an indirect tax "subsidy" in that it becomes a loss for the creditor, impacting the amount of corporate profits which are taxable.

The only way that taxpayers "directly" fund bankruptcy is when a pension plan is transferred to the PBGC (Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation). This is a federal "insurance" program similar to the FDIC (for banking). But, the PBGC benefits are limited, and the organization is only required to fund covered benefits. Plus, when the plan is transferred, all assets of the plan are transferred as well, and these assets are supposed to be used as "first dollar."

American Bankruptcy law is based upon sound principle. We don't believe in debtors' prisons, and we believe that individuals and corporations should have legal protection from predatory creditors. This spawns economic growth and innovation. Unfortunately, there is a good case to be made that the current bankruptcy process has been corrupted and distorted to the point where it no longer serves its original purpose.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:10 am

Quoting Boysteve (Reply 17):
Like many Europeans I do not fully understand Chapter 11 protection, but I certainly don't like what I do know. Basically taxpayers money is used to stop an insolvent company going under and protect it from its creditors. Delta (effectively subsidized by Chapter 11) has over taken BA (a free standing profit making company) on transatlantic routes. This is not the free market that the US tries to tell everyone else it embraces.

No backlash, but you clearly do not understand Chapter 11 as you readily admit.

Taxpayer monies are not used to subsidize anything in Chapter 11. Chapter 11 is a reorganization under supervision of a judge. It is essentially when the company is taken over by the secured debt holders. The shareholders equity and to an extent the unsecured creditors are wiped out. All contracts are nullified and can be selectively re-instated only by court order and mutual agreement of the parties. The debt holders end up owning much of the new company in exchange for debt forgiveness, additional new shares may be issued in exchange for cash or other consideration as approved by the Judge.

All taxes must be paid by the company before anything else can happen. The taxes come before the secured creditors. There is no taxpayer monies involved.

This is very similar to many other countries reorganization systems, such as Canada's. It is also really not that much different than many EU countries, except the EU uses a court appointed administrator instead of existing management.
 
HunUtazo
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:12 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 16):
Now this really helped explain a lot

Well, I guess the best way to put it is that dals 'weakest link' is it's system, including it's hubs...just putting a bunch of aircraft on all new international routes won't change that, they need to find someone to merge with and get a management team in place that can make it work, perhaps LCC....good-luck.
dude
 
DLPMMM
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:29 am

Quoting HunUtazo (Reply 20):
Well, I guess the best way to put it is that dals 'weakest link' is it's system, including it's hubs...just putting a bunch of aircraft on all new international routes won't change that, they need to find someone to merge with and get a management team in place that can make it work, perhaps LCC.

Dude, I don't think you have a clue. DL's hub system is actually quite well situated. Changing the ratio of domestic verses international flying is a very smart way to increase the RASM. LCC's management teams are not the be-all, end-all that you make them out to be.

Chapter 11 was necessary due largely (among other things) to a defined benefit plan liability in excess of $10B. The LCCs do not have this type of legacy albatross around their neck. Some of the LCCs will also have to deal with their back-end loaded plane leases in the future, which will drive up their artificially low CASMs.

When DL sheds their defined benefit plans and emerge from Chapter 11, I expect that they will have a CASM at or below WN's (with fuel being equalized) and a higher RASM.
 
panamair
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:35 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 21):
When DL sheds their defined benefit plans and emerge from Chapter 11, I expect that they will have a CASM at or below WN's (with fuel being equalized) and a higher RASM

For Q2 05, DL Mainline already had a rather impressive CASM (excluding special items but including higher fuel prices) of 9.65 cents. For comparison sake, AA's was 10.03 cents whlie CO's was 9.92 cents. Of course, we all know that DL has nowhere near as high RASM as AA or CO and therefore is taking all sorts of measures now to increase that.
 
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mariner
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:34 am

Quoting HunUtazo (Reply 20):
get a management team in place that can make it work, perhaps LCC.

In this goulash of mergers you have dreamed up, I agree with the above statement 100%.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
vv701
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:58 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 3):
Increasing revenue is more important, imho, than cutting costs.

Fine. But my perspective is that the most aggressive LCC in fine financial shape cannot afford to start up thirteen new routes at one time with all the up front costs that incurs. So if Southwest or Ryanair cannot afford to do it how the hell can an airline that is legally bankrupt afford it, particularly as three or four of the destinations have been operated in the past by Delta? So who will lend a bankrupt airline the money to start these services or, heaven forbid, did DL seek Chapter 11 Protection so that instead of paying its debts it could spend its revenues chasing the end of a mythical rainbow that it more than looked at before and then abandoned? Will it be the banks that are not getting their loans repaid because Delta has Chapter 11 Protection? As I said before to me that defies logic.

Let me further illustrate my point. I passed my local travel agent after it closed today. It had two notices in its window. One advocated Christmas shopping in European cities with flights from London to Paris (£110), Copenhagen (£249), Prague (£256), Amsterdam (£190) and Nice (£206) amongst others.

Alongside it was a notice advertising 'low cost fares to the US between 1 November and 15 December subject to availability and taxes'. Destinations included New York (£126), Washington (£147), Boston (£148) and Los Angeles (£191).

Now given the choice of Amsterdam or Los Angeles for apparently about the same cost (although the AMS price might just include taxes that anyway are lower than those for LAX), I think I might chose LAX. But if these are the market prices then Delta may find that if it can find the money to open the new international routes, actually opening them with, for example, current fuel costs, may drive it straight to Chapter 7.

I have no problem in saying again :

Quoting VV701 (Reply 1):
But how you can do that when you are bankrupt seems to defy all logic, at leasrt to me!
 
HunUtazo
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:02 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 23):
this goulash of mergers you have dreamed up, I agree with the above statement 100%.

Over-lay...everything you read and hear with this model in mind:


CAL/UAL

AMR/NWAC

LCC/FRAGMENTS

DAL/GOD KNOWS?FRAGMENTED?DOWNSIZED?WHO KNOWS?

They just don't have a route system that will bail them out in the new era..
the international expansion will slow the bleed, but they'll still bleed..THEY NEED TO MERGE! Good-luck to all concerned...
dude
 
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mariner
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:23 pm

Quoting HunUtazo (Reply 25):
Over-lay...everything you read and hear with this model in mind:

I said I agreed with the part about DAL.

I said the rest was a goulash. It remains that.

 Smile

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
juventus
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:54 pm

Anybody think Delta will ever fly the 757s from JFK to Europe?
 
Kahala777
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:35 pm

Quoting Juventus (Thread starter):
With Mexico and Europe leading the way, Delta added a total of 50 new international routes, which enable the carrier to pass BA on Trans-Atlantic flying.

There is strong talk that this was just round one of the new routes to be debuted. It has been said that there is a second wave of new/restarted routes to be added as well.

ATL-LIS : 763

JFK-BEG : 763
JFK-GVA : 763
JFK-KBP : 763
JFK-LED : 763
JFK-WAW : 763

However, until the ink is dry on the press release, we can only wait and see.

KAHALA777
 
charliecossie
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:55 pm

Don't try telling me that Delta have been so busy flying loss-making routes these last few years (**billions lost**) that they have only just noticed it and thought "Hey, let's drop the loss-makers and add 50 profitable routes"!
 
N1120A
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:54 pm

Quoting Boysteve (Reply 17):
has over taken BA (a free standing profit making company)

BA also has the unique position of being the dominant carrier at one of the most important airports in the world. No other airline can truly say they domminate at a place with Heathrow's O&D and connecting combination. Additionally, they were launched by the state and make lots of money on lucrative state contracts that are split among carriers in the US

Quoting Juventus (Reply 27):
Anybody think Delta will ever fly the 757s from JFK to Europe?

Only if the ETOPS more than the 4 they currently have
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
runway23
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:59 pm

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 28):
There is strong talk that this was just round one of the new routes to be debuted. It has been said that there is a second wave of new/restarted routes to be added as well.

ATL-LIS : 763

JFK-BEG : 763
JFK-GVA : 763
JFK-KBP : 763
JFK-LED : 763
JFK-WAW : 763

What would be your source for that?
 
panamair
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:48 am

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 28):
There is strong talk that this was just round one of the new routes to be debuted. It has been said that there is a second wave of new/restarted routes to be added as well.

ATL-LIS : 763

JFK-BEG : 763
JFK-GVA : 763
JFK-KBP : 763
JFK-LED : 763
JFK-WAW : 763

Actually JFK-KBP is part of this round. Maybe the others were part of an initial list of possibilities and were eliminated. With the recently announced schedule, they will pretty much be using 53 763ERs a day for transatlantic, India, and deep South American flights. By the time they finish converting the 8 domestic 763ERs to BusinessElite configuration, they will have a total of 59 available for transoceanic flights. Given these limitations, they may at most start another two daily flights.

[Edited 2005-10-20 19:00:02]
 
MAH4546
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:52 am

Quoting Runway23 (Reply 31):
Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 28):
There is strong talk that this was just round one of the new routes to be debuted. It has been said that there is a second wave of new/restarted routes to be added as well.

ATL-LIS : 763

JFK-BEG : 763
JFK-GVA : 763
JFK-KBP : 763
JFK-LED : 763
JFK-WAW : 763

What would be your source for that?

Himself. You'll have to learn to ignore our buddy Lhr001.
a.
 
Cure
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RE: DL 50 New Int'l Routes, Passes BA On Transatlantic

Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:22 am

Quoting Charliecossie (Reply 29):
Don't try telling me that Delta have been so busy flying loss-making routes these last few years (**billions lost**) that they have only just noticed it and thought "Hey, let's drop the loss-makers and add 50 profitable routes"!

Exactly!
someone clarifies, please...

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