Lumberton
Topic Author
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Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:00 am

I was browsing Planespotters the other day and noticed that Philippine Airlines at one time seemed to have had up to 12 A342/A343 in their fleet. Four remain, while 8, including the A342's, were transferred to other operators in the late 1990's.

http://www.planespotters.net/Airline/Philippine_Airlines_(PR_PAL)

Can anyone shed some light on why they bought so many aircraft of this type? They now operate 8 A330's, presumably as replacements for the A340's. Was the A340 just too much plane for their route structure? Did Airbus assist in finding new homes for the A340's in exchange for PAL taking the A330?

I tried an archive search but couldn't locate anything specific. Appreciate any insight.
Regards,
Lumberton
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
MarshalN
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:10 am

I seem to remember for a fleeting moment when they were in an expansion binge.... this is remotely from memory reading FI.... could be wrong though
 
Carpethead
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:42 pm

PR was in order their heads with expansion in the mid-90s then the bottom fellout of the Asian economies in the late 90s resulting in selling off extraneous A340s and others like 744, A320, 733. For some time, there was absolutely no aircraft additions until of late when they acquired a few second-hand A320s.
 
trex8
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:25 pm

The A342s were initially CX planes which PAL took as a stopgap till the A343s were available and they were only used for in some cases a few months before PAL went bankrupt.
 
airlineaddict
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:35 pm

As Carpethead stated, prior to the fallout of the Asian economies, PR was privatized and went on a shopping spree to update their fleet of aircraft including A340s to replace aging 747-200s on routes to Europe and the Middle East. PR went into a rehabilitation plan and many of the A340s were either cancelled or went elsewhere since many of the routes to Europe and the Middle East were cancelled.

I recall that some of the A340-200s destined for PR were used by CX first as a test to see whether or not the A340s would fit into CX's fleet. I don't believe PR ever actually used the A340-200s.

The A330s were always destined for regional and domestic routes from Manila. The A330s replaced A300s.
 
Thorben
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:16 pm

According to their homepage they don't have a single European destination. Does anybody know what the chances are that they'll have one in the near future??
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
Orion737
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:25 pm

Phillipines have no prescence at all now in Europe and I am amazed by that. I would have though a few flights to FRA,AMS and LHR/LGW would have been viable.

I dont mean to be controversial but a lot of the mucky mack brigade and silver haired old men travel to the Phillipines regularly in search of a wife. Disgusting as it it, they should make up quite a market.
 
Lumberton
Topic Author
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:27 pm

Thank you all for your responses. I've flown the SFO/MNL route on PR a couple of times and this route is tailor made for the A380; the 744's are packed to the rafters with pax and balikbayan boxes. There was a thread here awhile back discussing this in some detail. I've always liked PR, with their nice and friendly service. I'd like to see them doing better but I don't see them ordering the A380 anytime soon.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 5):
According to their homepage they don't have a single European destination.

I didn't know that either. With 7+million Philipinos working overseas, you'd think they had a captive market?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
vsflyer747400
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:00 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 7):
I didn't know that either. With 7+million Philipinos working overseas, you'd think they had a captive market?

I would imagine that PR need......

A) Suitable equipment now - the 747-400's are tied to their US routes
B) To find the right european routes to go for - LON would be a must.

The market from Europe has seen airlines withdraw from serving Manila, in the last three years or so we have seen BA pull out (was an extension of 1 of the HKG flights - now they just feed into CX connections), Swiss, Air France (but KLM has now gone daily as a result), PR pulled out of europe years ago when they routed LGW-FRA/ZRH-BKK-MNL I think. Nowadays the European Philipino community tend to go for whatver carrier is the cheapest I'd say and route via the middle east on KU, EK, GF or QR.

Will PR ever return to Europe? That remains to be seen.
Being on: (in no order) VS BA AA EK CX MH DL EI BD KL HV NW RC LH AF DA TG QF US FR LX AC SK AZ PG SQ UA PA
 
Thorben
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:12 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 7):
I didn't know that either. With 7+million Philipinos working overseas, you'd think they had a captive market?

I don't know if they work in Europe, I think they work mainly in the Middle East (and on ships.)



Quoting VSFLYER747400 (Reply 8):
A) Suitable equipment now - the 747-400's are tied to their US routes
B) To find the right european routes to go for - LON would be a must.

They have the A340s. Getting slot at LHR or FRA might be a problem. According to the pictures in the db they served London, Paris, and Frankfurt in the 90s.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
2travel2know
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:27 pm

The Filipino-Spanish connection has been lost for decades now, I doubt PR would ever fly MNL-MAD or to Latinamerica.
But I guess - given the demand - one day they may fly MNL-FRA/CGN-LGW/STN.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
KL808
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:53 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):
I don't know if they work in Europe, I think they work mainly in the Middle East (and on ships.)

My friend its called nurses. Britain is a large filipino nurse recruiting country.

In Europe, Italy has the largest Filipino community then comes Germany then Britain and the Netherlands.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):
Getting slot at LHR or FRA might be a problem

I believe those slots are still available for PR when they need them. There was talk many years ago to sell these slots especially the ones at LHR, but they decided to keep em.

The carrier as it is now, is having capacity shortages. It needs more aircraft.
But with a lot of corruption within the carrier it will be hard press to find extra cash, though it made a profit so far this year.

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
vsflyer747400
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:01 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):
They have the A340s. Getting slot at LHR or FRA might be a problem. According to the pictures in the db they served London, Paris, and Frankfurt in the 90s.

Their A340s only seat 264 pax (12F/32C/220Y) where as their 747-400s carry 398 (32F/40C/326Y), deep down they would need to use the 747s given the loads. I used to fly LON/DXB/MNL 2-3 times a year on business using EK and the flights were always full, even the LON/DXB leg was mainly carrying pax for the MNL connection.

They would probably serve LGW again as before, question is whether they would still route the flights like they used to, via another European and Far Eastern city. I would guess that even then it would only be 3-4 flights per week.
Being on: (in no order) VS BA AA EK CX MH DL EI BD KL HV NW RC LH AF DA TG QF US FR LX AC SK AZ PG SQ UA PA
 
KL808
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:09 pm

Quoting VSFLYER747400 (Reply 12):
They would probably serve LGW again as before, question is whether they would still route the flights like they used to, via another European and Far Eastern city.

Well they use to operate LGW/LHR direct a couple years back with the A340, but again that was short lived.

I think with a restart of EU network, it would probably be best to operate the flights with an intermediate stop ie MNL-FRA-LHR/LGW or MNL-FRA-CDG or MNL-FCO-FRA

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
iflypal
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:18 pm

If memory serves me right:

Philippine Airlines placed an order for 4 A340-200, 4 A340-300, 8 A330-300, and 7 747-400s as part of a massive refleeting program in 1993. The significant chunk of the order was placed at the Paris Air Show. To bridge the delivery between the Airbuses and the existing fleet of 747-200s and DC10's, PAL wet-leased 4 MD11s from World Airways and a couple of A340-300 from Gulf Air.

Shortly before delivery, financial and operational difficulties forced PAL to sublease the 4 A340-200 to Cathay Pacific for two years. Fit the bill, as PAL was not prepared to accept deliveries of the aircraft and CX couldnt get their metal fast enough.

When they finally did accept deliveries of the A340s, PAL operated them on a slew of intercontinental routes. It was this buying binge and the expansion (coupled with the Asian economic crisis of course) that ultimately caused the airline to shut down. Lets not talk about pilot strikes at this time.

The 3-4 stop European milkrun was replace with nonstop MNL-LHR 4x a week, MNL-FRA nonstop 3x a week, MNL-FRA via BKK 3x a week and MNL-CDG via BKK 3x a week. Yes, at one point, PAL served Europe 13 flights weekly. The flights were a mix of A340-200/300.

On the Transpacific front, PAL was have used the A340-200 on the Manila-Vancouver-Newark run previously operated by the MD11. When the Philippines was rated Category 2 by the FAA, PAL was forced to wet lease (aircraft, crew, etc) from World Airways to operate the route (along with a Manila-Seoul-Los Angeles run). That deal proved to be too expensive. Shortly before the shutdown, PAL A340s were used on the MNL-YVR (4x a week) and the MNL-HNL runs, as well as seasonal additional frequencies between Manila and Honululu and Los Angeles

The A340s also contributed to an expansion in the Australian market. At the peak of their schedule, Sydney had as much as 10x a week, Melbourne 6x a week and Brisbane 4x a week. The flights were operated by the -300 series aircraft. Imagine, a morning AND an evening flight to Sydney 3x a week!

In the Middle East, the A340s forged additional frequencies to Dubai, Jeddah, Dhahran and Riyadh. Ultimately, Dubai was closed, followed by Jeddah. Dhahran (Dammam) was closed 1 year after PAL went through rehabilitation.

The original 4 Airbus A340-200s were ultimately leased to Aerolineas Argentinas after PALs shutdown. I dont know if PAL still holds the operating leases for the 4 aircraft or if it was repossessed by Airbus and then leased to AR. It would be nice to have them back to restart the European services, though I would presume the aircraft would be in need of an interior overhaul.

The original 4 Airbus A340-300s are now operating PALs intercontinental routes-- Los Angeles (2x weekly), San Francisco (1x weekly), Honululu (3x weekly), Vancouver (4x), Las Vegas (4x), and Riyadh (3x weekly). The lone A340-300 leased from Gulf Air is back with its original operator.

Ideally, the Airbus A380 would be a nice replacement to the 747-400s plying the Manila-Los Angeles and Manila-San Francisco routings. A more realistic step would be to lease 6 Airbus A340-600s. 2 to replace the daily MNL-LAX route, 2 to replace the MNL-SFO route (eliminating the HNL stop westbound) and 2 for European routes (MNL-FRA-LHR 3x weekly, MNL-ROM-CDG 2x, MNL-ROM-LHR 2x weekly). The flights represent a calculated re-entry to the European market. There are no direct flight currently from Manila to London, Rome and Paris. At one point, BA, AZ, and AF operated these routes. The 747-400s being replaced by the 600 series would be redeployed to service the Australian runs, the lucrative Manila-Tokyo flights, and extra frequencies to Los Angeles and San Francisco via Honululu. But I digress.

Hope that sums it up.
 
Lumberton
Topic Author
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:38 pm

Quoting Iflypal (Reply 14):
Hope that sums it up.

Yes, nicely done, Iflypal. Thanks. You talk abot the A346 on lease as an option for their US routes. What about a 777 option on wet lease?
Regards,
L
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:25 am

Quoting Iflypal (Reply 14):
Ideally, the Airbus A380 would be a nice replacement to the 747-400s plying the Manila-Los Angeles and Manila-San Francisco routings.

The A380 is not a good replacement. PR has a 139 kg pax allowance for flights from the US. Most of this weight is taken up by goods in cardboard boxes being brought home for friends and family.

This causes the A380 cargo hold to fill up before all the seats are taken. Due to their higher cargo volume to seat ratio, an A346 can carry almost as many pax as an A380 while a 773ER can carry more.

Of course the A346 and 773ER operating costs are significantly lower than the A380.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
klmcedric
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:56 am

So is KL the only carrier offering a non-stop MNL-Europe flight??
 
halls120
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:02 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):
I don't know if they work in Europe, I think they work mainly in the Middle East (and on ships.)

40% of all marine engineers working on the world's merchant fleet are Phillipine sailors. You also find a large number of Phillipine nationals working in fish processing plants in Alaska.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
KL808
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:12 am

Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 17):
So is KL the only carrier offering a non-stop MNL-Europe flight??

YES. Triple 7 service too. To bad there are no pics of KL B777 at NAIA.

LH offers A346 flights via CAN.

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
Thorben
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:05 am

Quoting KL808 (Reply 11):
My friend its called nurses. Britain is a large filipino nurse recruiting country.

In Europe, Italy has the largest Filipino community then comes Germany then Britain and the Netherlands.

The foreign nurses in Germany come mainly from Korea. We don't have a large Filipino community here. Only some 20,000 in the whole country.

Quoting Iflypal (Reply 14):
Hope that sums it up.

Nice report, thanks. I think 6 A380s and 6-10 A346s would be good for them.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 18):
40% of all marine engineers working on the world's merchant fleet are Phillipine sailors. You also find a large number of Phillipine nationals working in fish processing plants in Alaska.

That's what I meant. They have a reputation to be very good sailors. (OK, but their country is made up of some 7,000 islands.)
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
A342
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:33 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 16):
Of course the A346 and 773ER operating costs are significantly lower than the A380.

This is pure speculation and remains to seen. Ask SQ when they got both.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
wunala
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:53 am

Quoting VSFLYER747400 (Reply 12):
where as their 747-400s carry 398 (32F/40C/326Y),

32 in First Class. Has anyone flown them in First, is it a true First Class or an enhanced Biz class?
 
KL808
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:58 am

Quoting Wunala (Reply 22):
32 in First Class. Has anyone flown them in First, is it a true First Class or an enhanced Biz class?

Well it depends. Their first class is first class, but its not up to par as other asian carriers like SQ, TG, CX, MH etc. Seats wise that is. Food is excellent as well as service. Check out Lufthansa747 trip reports, he has some first class flights on PR.

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
stirling
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:15 pm

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 6):
silver haired old men travel to the Phillipines regularly in search of a wife. Disgusting as it it, they should make up quite a market.

Just you wait til you're old and gray and have more cash than testosterone.
 old 

I was looking at my collection of old airline magazine ads...
Philippine Air Lines billed themselves, with the arrival of the DC8, as "The 6000 MPH Airline"
This is not a typo.

They explain how they do it by the fact they go so many places...And I quote being unable to scan it...
"From taking off in San Francisco to taking off in Hong Kong, to circling Manila, approaching Zamboanga, serving cocktails above Honolulu, fastening seatbelts in Australia and taxying in Taipei. Add it up, and there's nothing new about flying 6000 MPH. We do it everyday."

 Confused
What?

But WHAT ABOUT THE RUM!!!
(Gratutious POTC Reference for the day)
Delete this User
 
N751PR
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340'

Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:49 pm

Quoting VSFLYER747400 (Reply 12):
where as their 747-400s carry 398 (32F/40C/326Y)

Well only one 744 has this layout and that is N754PR which is an ex Kuwait Airways 747. N751PR-N753PR along with RP-C8168 have 10F/32C/383Y bringing the total to 433.

Quoting Wunala (Reply 22):
32 in First Class. Has anyone flown them in First, is it a true First Class or an enhanced Biz class?

Well the F seats on the 744s seem to be equivalent of the older C seats of neighboring carriers. I haven't flown First in the 744 but w/ the A343 on LAS-YVR along with any other F product of other Asian carriers but the A340 product seems to be the most modern one that PR can offer. The seat has four adjustable headrests, lumbar support and can recline 180 degrees and I guess you can compare it to the F seat on OZ's 744s, TG's older F seat on longhauls, etc. just without the privacy canopy.

Here's a picture of the F cabin in N754PR (the one that has 32 seats)

Here's the F seat on N751-753PR (I don't know if RP-C168 has the same seats).


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Lari-Pekka Kero



Some pics of the A340 F cabin from my LAS-YVR trip last year:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/Skyblade04/BCA019.jpg

(that's Philippine singer Martin Nievera in that seat, signing an autograph to a PR F/A Big grin)

This is the only pic I could find of the F seat fully reclined:


Also, AR still maintains the PR interior on their A342s. Check out their Club C�ndor seats:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Juliano M. Bergmann



...and the Mabuhay Class on the A343.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/Skyblade04/BCA023.jpg

I have more pics on my first PR A343 trip report. Link to the TR.

Here's a couple of Lufthansa747's trip reports that KL808 may be referring to:

A Month In TH/PH, 16 Flights AY/FD/LH/OX/PR/TG

The Great Asian Adventure 2005, SQ First And Others

Thanks for posting your bit, Iflypal.  bigthumbsup  I never knew PR leased their A340s to CX.
"Ladies and Gentlemen it's happy hour. You will get two approaches for the price of one."
 
N754PR
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:52 pm

They had at least TWO A343's from GF.
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
N751PR
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:05 pm

Quoting N754PR (Reply 26):
They had at least TWO A343's from GF.

Iflypal already covered it, I guess the other part was a typo.

Quoting Iflypal (Reply 14):
and a couple of A340-300 from Gulf Air.
"Ladies and Gentlemen it's happy hour. You will get two approaches for the price of one."
 
airlineaddict
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:29 pm

Great summary Iflypal! For some reason I thought the DC-10s were long gone prior to the arrival of the A330s and A340s, but I stand corrected.

As was discussed in previous threads, the CEO of PR has put an emphasis on flights to Italy due to the large number of overseas workers there. If/when they acquire additional aircraft, Italy will probably be one of the first additions.
 
wunala
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:54 pm

Thanks N751PR for the info.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:49 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 21):
This is pure speculation and remains to seen. Ask SQ when they got both.

No, it isn't speculation. Trip operating costs will always be lower for the A346 and 773ER as they are smaller airplanes.

Trip operating cost per seat will favor the A380 if it is operated at 500+ seats compared to the 300+ seats of the A346 and 773ER.

In a PR configuration this seat delta would not exist given the PR high baggage allowance. For PR, an A346 might have more seats than an A380.
This is due to the lower cargo volume to floor area ratio of the A380.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
sq212
Posts: 263
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:03 pm

PR used to be the dominant carrier in the Philippines. At one time they're at par with CX. Unfortunately, labor, politics, new management, increased competition (domestic and international), and hesitant to invest/upgrade their fleet resources killed the company potential of being one of the best carriers in Asia. Still valued the hospitality and services of the cabin crew (one of the best IMO).

Cheers

[Edited 2005-10-20 11:06:35]
 
Lumberton
Topic Author
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:03 pm

Quoting Sq212 (Reply 31):
In a PR configuration this seat delta would not exist given the PR high baggage allowance.

Without commenting on the operating costs, I can attest to the fact that the baggage allowance is THE thing for Filipinos returning home. PR gives a very generous allowance and the "balikbayan" (Filipinos returning home) use every gram. It's customary and expected to bring gifts for friends, relatives, etc. IMO, PR will always have a market where there is a large gathering of overseas Philippinos since I know of no other airline that caters to this demand for a large allowance of luggage.

I wasn't aware of the cargo limitations of the A380. Thanks Sq212. That would definitely put a crimp in any future seating configurations if PR would acquire this aircraft. As I said, when Filipinos fly PR, the expect to be able to check in a couple of balikbayan boxes.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
A342
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:38 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 30):
No, it isn't speculation. Trip operating costs will always be lower for the A346 and 773ER as they are smaller airplanes.

Trip operating cost per seat will favor the A380 if it is operated at 500+ seats compared to the 300+ seats of the A346 and 773ER.

In a PR configuration this seat delta would not exist given the PR high baggage allowance. For PR, an A346 might have more seats than an A380.
This is due to the lower cargo volume to floor area ratio of the A380.

If you mean trip costs, then you are right of course.

Well, what about a A389Combi then ? Should be perfect for PR: Cargo/baggage on the upper deck and in the belly and passengers on the main deck. bigthumbsup 
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
sq212
Posts: 263
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:25 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 32):

Lumberton

You should thank OldAeroGuy, not me. the quote is from his Reply 30 not 31.

Cheers
 
Lumberton
Topic Author
Posts: 4176
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:52 pm

Quoting Sq212 (Reply 34):
You should thank OldAeroGuy, not me.

Quite right. Thanks, OldAeroGuy. (It was too early in the morning when I made that post  zzz  )

Quoting A342 (Reply 33):
Well, what about a A389Combi then ?

Interesting suggestion. However, I'm not aware that anything like that is even being considered by Airbus at this time. It might work for PR, but wouldn't almost all other airlines want to maximize pax?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
boysteve
Posts: 887
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RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:57 pm

Maybe they bought them to fly the Imelda Marcos shoe collection around.

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 6):
I dont mean to be controversial but a lot of the mucky mack brigade and silver haired old men travel to the Philippines regularly in search of a wife. Disgusting as it it, they should make up quite a market

You can search on the internet now (so a friend told me!)
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:18 am

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 6):
I dont mean to be controversial but a lot of the mucky mack brigade and silver haired old men travel to the Phillipines regularly in search of a wife. Disgusting as it it, they should make up quite a market.

Do you mean that you have to go and collect them ! I assumed that "mail order brides" would include postage and handling
 
iflypal
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 12:47 pm

RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:22 am

Allow me to be a bigger airliner geek as I appeared to be before.

Once PAL gets out of rehabilitation, they should proceed with a somewhat calculated expansion/re-fleeting effort that would like a bit like this:

1) Terminate the leases on the five (5) 747-400 aircraft currently on operation. (Gradual as new aircraft..see below...are inducted)

2) Lease eight (8) Airbus A340-600 aircraft to replace the 747-400s as well as expand to several new markets. Deployment of the eight would look like the following:

Tail 1/2- Manila-Los Angeles vv (7x weekly), nonstop WB bypassing HNL. Operates Manila-Tokyo Narita between transpacific departures.

Tail 3/4- Manila-San Francisco vv (7x weekly), nonstop WB bypassing HNL. Operates Manila-Seoul Incheon between transpacific departures.

Tail 5- Manila-Vancouver-Newark vv (4x weekly)
Tail 6- Manila-Vancouver-Chicago OHare vv (3x weekly)

Tail 7- Manila-Las Vegas-Toronto (3x weekly). HUGE YYZ-LAS casino market. Full 5th freedom rights between LAS and YYZ
Tail 8- Manila-Los Angeles-San Francisco-Manila (4x weekly). Rotates with T#7.

3) Continue operating leases of A340-300s. Acquire four (4) additional A340-300 aircraft or induct original A340-200s leased to Aerolineas Argentinas once their new A340-300/600s start arriving. Deploy the 8 A340-200/300s in the following manner:

300 series

Tail 1- Manila-Honululu-Seattle vv (3x weekly)
Tail 2- Manila-Honululu-Las Vegas vv (2x weekly or 1 additional freq in SAN is operated once weekly)
Tail 2- Manila-Honululu-San Diego vv (2x weekly or 1x weekly with additional frequency going to Las Vegas). This aircraft operates Manila-Ho Chi Minh between transpacific departures.
Tail 3- Manila-Melbourne-Sydney-Manila vv (4x weekly); Manila-Sydney-Brisbane-Manila (3x weekly).
Tail 4- Reserve/back up aircraft, Presidential Shuttle, etc.

If 200 series

Tail 5- Manila-Bangkok-Rome vv (4x weekly)
Tail 6- Manila-Bangkok-Paris vv (3x weekly). Rotates with T5. This aircraft operates Manila-Hong Kong (2:00pm dep) in between intercontinental segments
Tail 7- Manila-London vv (4x weekly nonstop)
Tail 8- Manila-Frankfurt vv (3x weekly nonstop). Rotates with T7. This aircraft operates Manila-Shanghai (11:00a dep) in between intercontinental segments

If 300 series--
Tail 5- Same as above
Tail 6- Same as above
Tail 7- Manila-Beijing-London vv (4x weekly). No local traffic BJS-LHR vv
Tail 8- Manila-Beijing-Frankfurt vv (3x weekly). No local traffic BJS-FRA vv. Rotates with T7. This aircraft operates Manila-Xiamen (2:00pm dep) in between intercontinental segments

4) Continue operating leases on eight (8) Airbus A330-300 aircraft. Deploy aircraft on the following manner:

Tail 1- Manila-Cebu-Tokyo Narita vv. (6x weekly), 7x when additional allocations are received. 14 hr utilization for this aircraft
Tail 2- Cebu-Seoul vv (5x weekly); Cebu-Osaka Kansai vv (2x weekly). Cebu-Hong Kong vv (4x weekly) in between Korea/Japan flights. 16 hr utilization for this aircraft.
Tail 3- Manila-Riyadh vv (4x weekly); Manila-Jeddah (3x weekly).
Tail 4- Manila-Osaka Kansai (3x weekly); Manila-Nagoya (4x weekly). This aircraft operates Manila-Hong Kong (7:30am) in between Japan flights. 14 hr utilizatio for this aircraft
Tail 5- Manila-Fukuoka-Okinawa-Manila (4x weekly); Manila-Fukuoka vv (2x weekly); Manila-Osaka Kansai vv (1x weekly). This aircraft operates Manila-Saipan-Guam-Manila (3x weekly) on days where MNL-FUK/KIX is flown; Manila-Guam when MNL-FUK-OKA vv is operated. 19 hours utilization on this aircraft
Tail 6- Manila-Singapore-Delhi vv (4x weekly); Manila-Singapore-Perth vv (3x weekly). Local traffic rights. 20 hours utilization on this aircraft.
Tail 7- Manila-Singapore AM (7x weekly); Manila-Hong Kong (6pm dep) (7x weekly); 11 hr utilization for this aircraft. Rotates with T6
Tail 8- Manila-Cebu (2x daily); Manila-Davao (1x daily); Manila-General Santos (1x daily)-widebody TUNA run

5) Continue operating leases on six (6) Airbus A320-200 aircraft. Deploy in the following manner:

Tail 1- Manila-Kuala Lumpur vv (7x weekly); Manila-Guangzhou (7x weekly)
Tail 2- Manila-Busan vv (5x weekly); Manila-Daeju (2x weekly); Manila-Taipei (AM) between Korea flights. 14 hr utilization on this aircraft
Tail 3- Manila-Beijing (7x weekly) if BJS is not operated with 342; Manila-Jakarta (7x weekly) if BJS is operated with 342 above. This aircraft operates Manila-Hong Kong overnight (new) 9:00pm dep MNL; 7:00a dep HKG. Aircraft overnights in Hong Kong. 14 hr utilization on this aircraft
Tail 4- Manila-Bangkok (AM) (4x weekly); Manila-Hanoi (3x weekly); Manila-Xiamen (7x weekly). 10 hr utlization on this aircraft
Tail 5- Manila-Cebu (2x daily); Manila-Davao (2x daily)
Tail 6- Manila-Cebu (2x daily); Manila-Davao (2x daily)

6) Terminate leases on remaining three (4) Boeing 737-300 aircraft; and 3 (Boeing 737-400 aircraft)

7) Lease nine (9) Airbus A319-200 aircraft. For domestic routes;

Partnerships and Code-share agreements

1) US Airways (out of Las Vegas) to cities all over the US
2) Alaska Airlines (out of Seattle) to cities all over the West Coast
3) Air Canada (out of Vancouver) to cities all over Canada
4) Qatar Airways (out of Doha on QR metal) to cities in ME and Africa
5) Alitalia (out of Rome and Milan) to cities all over Europe/North Africa
6) Sorry, no global alliances quite yet.

Wow, that was fun... Okay, your thoughts?
 
OldAeroGuy
Posts: 3208
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:50 am

RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:28 am

Quoting Sq212 (Reply 34):
Lumberton

You should thank OldAeroGuy, not me. the quote is from his Reply 30 not 31.

Cheers

No problem, always good to have a civil conversation on airplane capabilities.

PR does have some unique operational needs.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
Lumberton
Topic Author
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:33 am

Quoting Iflypal (Reply 38):
Tail 8- Manila-Los Angeles-San Francisco-Manila (4x weekly). Rotates with T#7.

Don't understand this one. Your scenario already covers daily 7xweekly service both to LAX and SFO. Couldn't this aircraft be better utilized elsewhere?

You have Guam being serviced with a 333. Is that what they're using now? I used to fly CO 737's between GUM and MNL in 2001. I heard that PR started flying this route but I'm not sure what kind of acft they use.

Quite a post, Iflypal. Many thanks. I've no doubt your plan would do wonders for PR. All they need to do is line up the financing....  Smile
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
eha
Posts: 209
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:35 pm

RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:51 am

Quoting Iflypal (Reply 38):
Allow me to be a bigger airliner geek as I appeared to be before.

Once PAL gets out of rehabilitation, they should proceed with a somewhat calculated expansion/re-fleeting effort that would like a bit like this:

Nice vision on PAL possible expansion.

You're talking about rehabilitation, what do you mean exactly ? PAL is posting several years with profits now (modest, but still), except a slight net loss in 2002. They are also adding up more A320 to their fleet (leased).

I see they have still 4 747 on orders, how does it fit with your "possible" strategy of retiring the 747 ?

We talked long-haul so far. It seems as I said above, they currently tackle their short-medium haul network, which indeed also makes sense. Your take on that ?

Thanks,
E.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6459
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:19 am

Iflypal,
That's some wish list...

My version *just for semi-serious fun*
- 5 744s kept, if replaced with other type, say A346, it'll go to 6 346s.
- Current A340 fleet remains at 4 A343.
- 8 A330-300s to expand to 12.
- 6 A320s will expand, or, more 733/4 (used) or 737NGs to meet the narrowbody needs.

Deployment:
Say they go to 6 A346.
346-1 and 346-2 = Daily MNL-LAX, serves HKG inbetween.
346-3 and 346-4 = Daily MNL-SFO, serves TPE inbetween.
346-5 and 346-6 = Daily MNL-FRA-London

4 A343
343-1 and 343-2 = MNL-AUH-FCO/CDG rotation
343-3 = MNL-RUH-JED-MNL
343-4 = spare (can rotate with 333) + Presidential transport.

8 A333
333-1 = MNL-SYD/+MEL daily
333-2 = MNL-PER and MNL-TPE daily
333-3 = MNL-NRT daily and MNL-CEB
333-4 = MNL-PEK and MNL-HKG daily
333-5 = MNL-ICN and MNL-SIN daily
333-6 = MNL-KIX and MNL-BKK daily
333-7 = CEB-ICN and CEB-TPE daily
333-8 = CEB-FUK and CEB-NGO rotate with alternate overnights away.

The 320s... Well, fill those gaps I left out from Iflypal's plan  Smile

A bit boring for the widebodies, but this could be more realistic... less of a financing challenge, but hey, I was just having fun  Smile

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
N751PR
Posts: 1210
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 6:06 am

RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340'

Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:48 am

Quoting Wunala (Reply 29):
Thanks N751PR for the info.

Anytime.




Quoting Sq212 (Reply 31):
PR used to be the dominant carrier in the Philippines. At one time they're at par with CX. Unfortunately, labor, politics, new management, increased competition (domestic and international), and hesitant to invest/upgrade their fleet resources killed the company potential of being one of the best carriers in Asia. Still valued the hospitality and services of the cabin crew (one of the best IMO).

Indeed those were the days. When I looked back at some National Geographic magazines dating from the 70s and early 80s, I'd always see a PAL advertisement lingering around. Nowadays seeing such a thing would be a miracle.





Quoting Lumberton (Reply 32):
IMO, PR will always have a market where there is a large gathering of overseas Philippinos since I know of no other airline that caters to this demand for a large allowance of luggage.

My family always looks at PAL because of that. Our basic luggage setup is 6 balikbayan boxes and 2 oversized luggage in which pretty much half the space is used to fit more good for family back home. Another plus about flying PAL to the Philippines is that it's easier for us who does not have Manila as our destination. We can easily connect from international to domestic flights just by walking across the terminal to the domestic wing. If it were any other international airline, you'd have to hail a taxi or jeepney from Terminal 1...with your balikbayan boxes (MIAA doesn't offer connections of luggage to the other terminals) and then connect to Terminal 2 or the Domestic Airport. Until they FINALLY open Terminal 3, I won't be taking an international carrier unless I fly into CEB.

Quoting Iflypal (Reply 38):
Allow me to be a bigger airliner geek as I appeared to be before.

You pretty much nailed almost the entire scenario that I dreamed up as well...and then some.

Quoting Iflypal (Reply 38):
1) US Airways (out of Las Vegas) to cities all over the US

I've been suggesting this as well and it would be nice if PAL can open a codeshare agreement with HP/US out of LAS...and please let there be a more expansive FFM partnership!

Quoting Eha (Reply 41):

You're talking about rehabilitation, what do you mean exactly ? PAL is posting several years with profits now (modest, but still), except a slight net loss in 2002. They are also adding up more A320 to their fleet (leased).

The rehabilitation program goes on until 2009. Pretty much the profits that PAL earns goes to the repayments of it's debt. That also explains the reason why PR can't aquire new aircraft (though they were successful in negotiating on getting a 5th 744 and 3 A320s) or invest on a new cabin product.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 40):
You have Guam being serviced with a 333. Is that what they're using now?

The A320 usually serves the MNL-GUM flights.

[Edited 2005-10-20 18:57:38]
"Ladies and Gentlemen it's happy hour. You will get two approaches for the price of one."
 
dforce1
Posts: 507
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:16 am

RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 3:45 am

Could someone please explain to me why the European carriers have been pulling out of MNL if the routes are profitable?

And does anyone have any idea how Canadian Airlines did when they operated YVR to MNL? Was that a code share?
 
iflypal
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 12:47 pm

RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 3:46 am

Mandala, and all

Thanks for your responses. Kewl.

The 4 747-400s on order/in the books (?) with Boeing most likely will not be exercised.. Dont know what deal they have in place with BA to have had that remain open for so long without cancellation. In any case, exercising the four really wont help PAL out as much as the -400 still does not have enough range to do LAX/SFO-MNL westbound year round. Even the -400E operated by Qantas I dont believe cuts the mustard. The only 747 left is the ADV and thats about eight years away assuming they launch.

So where are we at? Cathay I heard is looking to get rid of their 346's. (5?) . Air Canada I heard is looking to get rid of their 346s. (3). 3 plus 5= 8 so at bat, we are good. If Cathay doesnt bite and Air Canada does give, can always lease them for Airbus. At least, there is really no extended wait involved like the A380 and the 747ADV.

I agree with OldAeroGuy about PAL and the A380. Operationally speaking, the most PAL can get are 2 units of the aircraft to ply MNL-LAX, or MNL-SFO, or MNL-LAX-SFO-MNL route. The aircraft then stays idle on the ground as there are no markets (HKG, NRT, SEL, KIX, PVG, BJS) where PR can fly that into in between the transpacific sectors. There is always Cebu but that means infrastructure improvements. Plus, the 'future' business plan calls for the elimination of First Class on intercontinental flights outright in favor of an upgraded or Premium Business Class (Sampaguita) and a Economy Plus type of cabin. That puts the pax count on the A380 to about 560 which translates to a containership full of the cardboard boxes. Imagine the baggage handlers dilemmna on that one?

Should Boeing decide to throw a hissy fit about the 747s on order, there is an option to replace the domestic fleet with 737NGs instead of the A319s. I doubt much if 4 747-400s translates to 9 737-700s but perhaps PR can get into the books 4-5 additional 737-900s for shuttle services between Manila and Cebu/Davao. The one 330 slated in the plan to operate the MNL-CEB/DVO route can then be diverted instead to start CEB-RUH/DXB/AUH flights. The 2 320s can be diverted to start regional services to points in China, Indonesia and Japan (Niigata, Sendai, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki to Cebu)


Was toying with the idea of transfering all Philippine Airlines domestic flights to Air Philippines, except for flights to Cebu, Davao and General Santos. If that was the case, the A319s would be cancelled in favor of the 737NGs for the Air Philippines fleet. Air Philippines and Philippine Airlines will can then be fully integrated in operations.

In addition, Air Philippines will lease four (4) regional jets, either the FRJ (Fairchild/Dornier) or surplus ERJ-145 from ConEx, USAirways, etc. The ERJs could be used on thinner routes as MNL-TUG, MNL-NAG, MNL-VIR as well as open up additional feeder routes in Cebu or Davao that was once deemed missionary. One of the ERJs can be used for EAGA/ASEAN traffic between Davao or General Santos City to Labuan, Kuching, Kota Kinabalu, Bandar Seri Begawan, Ujung Pandang, Manado and Biak. Lets give Davao International Airport a reason to be called Davao International.

Out of Subic or Laoag, 2P can base a 737-700 or an ERJ to ply routes between said gateways to Macau, Guangzhou, Kaohsiung, Chengdu, Shenzen, Taipei and Tianjin. (Casino Express). These can be scheduled or charters, as long as the operation is Philippine-based.

Whoa...I need to get a life. No more future fantasy plans from this guy. Next post or two will be more realistic I promise...
 
Lumberton
Topic Author
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:29 am

Quoting Iflypal (Reply 45):
Air Canada I heard is looking to get rid of their 346s. (3)

Are you sure these are 346's? I thought AC flew A345's? Would make a BIG difference in route planning. Otherwise, another great post.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:33 am

Quoting Iflypal (Reply 45):
So where are we at? Cathay I heard is looking to get rid of their 346's. (5?) . Air Canada I heard is looking to get rid of their 346s. (3). 3 plus 5= 8 so at bat, we are good.

CX has only 3 and will be keeping them for a while as they are very new. AC´s 3 A346 are not even delivered yet, if they´ll be ever.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Thorben
Posts: 2713
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:29 pm

RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:13 am

Quoting Iflypal (Reply 45):
So where are we at? Cathay I heard is looking to get rid of their 346's. (5?) . Air Canada I heard is looking to get rid of their 346s. (3). 3 plus 5= 8 so at bat, we are good. If Cathay doesnt bite and Air Canada does give, can always lease them for Airbus. At least, there is really no extended wait involved like the A380 and the 747ADV.

CX has three leased A346, but those are among the newest planes they have. Before getting rid of those they need to replace others first.

AC has two A345s and an order for three A346s. The A346 will probably never be delivered to them, but the A345 will fly the HKG route for quite some time. At least until the 772LR arrives, if it ever arrives.

Quoting Iflypal (Reply 38):
Acquire four (4) additional A340-300 aircraft or induct original A340-200s leased to Aerolineas Argentinas once their new A340-300/600s start arriving.

According to Airbus homepage AR doesn't have any A343s on order. I wonder what happened to their A346 order, I couldn't find out yet.

One possibility might be that AC(3) and AR(6) would get their A346s delivered soon, then sell them to some leasing company that could lease them to PR. Otherwise it would take some time before they could get some A346s. A380s would even take longer.

But anyway, your thoughts are very interesting.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
iflypal
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 12:47 pm

RE: Why Did Philippine Airlines Have So Many A340's?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:50 am

Thanks for correcting me Thorben. Somewhere, sometime I read about pending AR, CX, AC orders that jived with my numbers. How they evolved over time I do not know.

Realistically, PAL can probably only afford to add aircraft to its fleet piecemeal (i.e. one at a time, replacing aircraft that go off lease like the 733/734). They are sorely needing long haul aircraft, at a minimum 4 units to adequately support any foray into the European market or add quencies in North America. On the European front, Rome and London would probably be the top priority, Newark and Seattle for NAmerica. Looking at their current utilization, the extra frequencies they are operating in SFO/LAX isnt really buying them much. They can use that aircraft (1 A340-300) to service Vancouver an additional 3 more frequencies then extend the flight into Newark.

The daily Singapore A330 flight that continues onto Jakarta is underutilized. PR should consider extending the flight to Delhi (or Mumbai) and Chennai and make the Jakarta flight a standalone (theyre codesharing with Garuda for crying out loud). Perth could be another extension if 7x a week to India is not supportable.

The Cebu-Seoul A330 flights can be relegated to an A320 and upped to be 7x weekly. That would open the aircraft to increase Australia flights by 3 or 4 weekly frequencies. (ie one additional flight to Melbourne and 2 frequencies to Brisbane/Sydney)

A nerd yes I am.

To an easier topic, isnt it about time PAL relook at flight attendant uniforms. They made an attempt prior to shutdown to change uniforms. Something about the color red was frowned about (bad luck) by the elders of Chinese-ancestry that make up the Lucio Tan family. Ironically, the airline went under anyway. Ouch! What do you folks think about a MH/SQ/GA type uniform modeled after a filipino terno (is that the right term?) Of course that means saying buh-bye to some of the more senior legacy flight attendants that ply the Transpacific routes. Not to be mean-spirited.

How about them White Sox?