quickmover
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Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:25 pm

I wonder if they will keep DFW-LAS?

Dallas Business Journal - 6:22 PM CDT Tuesday
AirTran pulling back at D/FW Airport
Margaret Allen
Staff Writer
Low-cost carrier AirTran Airways Inc. is cutting back some of its flights from Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport because of high jet fuel costs, D/FW airport confirmed late Tuesday.

Visitors to the Florida-based carrier's Web site are unable to book flights between D/FW Airport and Los Angeles International Airport after Dec. 5, according to the "search for flights" area of the airline's Web site.

AirTran, which operates about a dozen flights a day out of D/FW, is one of the airport's premier low-cost carriers.

"AirTran has advised us that the impending suspension of their flights to Los Angeles from D/FW is due to the high cost of fuel, much the same as American's recent reduction of flights to certain markets," said Joe Lopano, executive vice president of marketing at D/FW. "We're hopeful that the price of fuel moderates in the coming months so that AirTran can resume its service from D/FW to Los Angeles."

An AirTran spokeswoman reached by the Dallas Business Journal Tuesday did not immediately have information on the route.

D/FW, which historically has had average fares much higher than other major U.S. hub airports, has consistently pointed to growth of its low-cost carriers as proof that smaller carriers can enter the D/FW Airport market and compete against American Airlines Inc.

American (NYSE: AMR) controls more than 80 percent of the flights at D/FW.

Major low-cost carrier Southwest Airlines Co. (NYSE: LUV), which operates from North Texas out of Dallas Love Field, has rejected invitations to fly out of D/FW, citing it as an American stronghold.

In a recent blow to D/FW, New York-based low-cost carrier JetBlue announced it was launching nonstop flights Jan. 19 between Austin's Bergstrom International Airport and New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport and Boston's Logan Airport.

AirTran recently announced it was expanding service in what it called "key business markets." Specifically, effective Dec. 6, it has said it will expand service between Chicago Midway Airport and Atlanta, Boston, Minneapolis-St. Paul, Orlando and Sarasota/Bradenton (Fla.) airports.

AirTran, a subsidiary of AirTran Holdings Inc. (NYSE: AAI), started its D/FW to LAX service in July 2004. From D/FW, it also serves Atlanta, Orlando, Baltimore and Las Vegas.

At the time it entered the market, published reports said AIrTran estimated the average D/FW-LAX fare at $180 one way. AirTran's introductory one-way fare was $89.

American responded by cutting its unrestricted "walk up" coach fares into the Los Angeles area to as low as $199 on nonstop flights, according to published reports.

Currently a traveler can book a Dec. 5 AirTran flight over the Internet for $89 one-way. The carrier departs D/FW Airport for Los Angeles twice a day, once at 7:10 a.m. and again at 4:14 p.m.
 
Indy
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:38 pm

When I saw the title of this topic I assumed it meant FL was pulling out of DFW and LAX. Did anyone else get this? In any case its amazing that fuel has gotten so bad that airlines are dropping routes like this between two large cities.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
ckfred
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:42 pm

Sounds like the aircraft that have been flying DFW-LAX will be moved to the new routes out of MDW.
 
dalneighbor
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:43 pm

I'm sure DFW execs would love to blame this loss of service on jet fuel. Hard to believe while AirTran has announced MDW - MSP, BOS.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
SonOfACaptain
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:43 pm

Oh boy, the anti-Wright, pro-WN are going to love this. Talk about a hit towards DFW and AA.

-SOAC
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Indy
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:44 pm

Is FL that short of aircraft that they have to kill routes like that in order to fill 2 new routes somewhere else? I guess its possible. I doubt they have a fleet parked in the desert like some seem to.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
FA4B6
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:49 pm

How is B6's new JFK/BOS-AUS service a blow to DFW?
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ejmmsu
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:51 pm

Yields on this flight were awful for FL.

FL started the route with fares that were about 220 total.

When AA matched those fares to not only LAX, but ONT, LGB, SNA, and BUR as well, FL had to lower their fares even more. It was not uncommon to find advanced purchase fares to LAX for around 175 total.

I don't think FL was making much money off those flights with those fares.

Also, the cheap fares to socal from DFW are OVER.

It wouldn't suprise me to see the fares back well over $300 by tomorrow.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
rumorboy
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:52 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 5):
Is FL that short of aircraft that they have to kill routes like that in order to fill 2 new routes somewhere else?

Pretty simple. If its true that they are short aircraft, if those airplanes can make money on another route so be it. Unfortunately oil is hurting everybody. Sometimes you have to make tough decisions. Hopefully it will come back. I sure liked the route.
 
supa7E7
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:04 pm

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 3):
I'm sure DFW execs would love to blame this loss of service on jet fuel. Hard to believe while AirTran has announced MDW - MSP, BOS.

Indeed. Obviously jet fuel has little/nothing to do with this move. AA choked them out of DFW-LAX in the time-tested method learned from Northwest.

To imply that DFW-LAX lacks sufficient demand to top off the fuel tanks is just an insult to our modest intelligence. AA whipped them good and they are not eager to admit it.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
rumorboy
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:13 pm

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 9):
AA whipped them good and they are not eager to admit it.

you are very wrong and your ideas are very misguided.
 
ejmmsu
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:18 pm

Quoting Rumorboy (Reply 10):
you are very wrong and your ideas are very misguided.

I can't think of any other way of looking at it. DFW did indeed "whip their butt"

Did you read what I wrote?

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 7):
Yields on this flight were awful for FL.

FL started the route with fares that were about 220 total.

When AA matched those fares to not only LAX, but ONT, LGB, SNA, and BUR as well, FL had to lower their fares even more. It was not uncommon to find advanced purchase fares to LAX for around 175 total.

I don't think FL was making much money off those flights with those fares.

Its ok to say that this idea is wrong, but it would be nice if said why you think this is true.

[Edited 2005-10-19 06:23:27]
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
sccutler
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:26 pm

Gosh, chased out by AA. Go figure.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
texan
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:28 pm

Quoting FA4B6 (Reply 6):
How is B6's new JFK/BOS-AUS service a blow to DFW?

DFW had been lobbying very hard for B6 service. The article is implying that B6 is planning only to announce service to one Texas city in the near future, that being AUS.

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 9):
AA choked them out of DFW-LAX in the time-tested method learned from Northwest.

Standard operating procedure for AA (and NW, UA, etc, just happens to be AA in this case). It is the reason LCCs have had problems entering hub markets.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:11 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 5):
Is FL that short of aircraft that they have to kill routes

FL is up to its eyeballs in new aircraft, and the DFW focus city has performed much worse than expected.

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 12):
Gosh, chased out by AA. Go figure.

None of the routes out of DFW other than ATL have been very successful.
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airtran737
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:25 pm

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 9):
AA whipped them good and they are not eager to admit it.

It all has to do with the cost of fuel in LAX. Yields were decent, but with oil at its current rate, the yields have diminished. Why keep something that is making little money when you can shift to another city and make a lot of money? FL isn't scared of the superfortress that is DFW. Give it time and I think you'll see a resumption in service to LAX from DFW.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
N200WN
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:45 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
None of the routes out of DFW other than ATL have been very successful

Good...maybe they'll move some of those A/C down to SAT. This place is booming as the loads have not let up like they traditionally do after Labor Day.
 
stirling
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:46 pm

Yep...DFW is a great airport to serve....as long as you're AA.

Everyone else...be prepared to bleed. But hey, it's called competition, right?

And WN picking up and moving everything over there lock, stock, and barrel is a good idea because?
Delete this User
 
md90fan
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:55 pm

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 9):
AA choked them out of DFW-LAX in the time-tested method learned from Northwest.

LOL who else had NW kicked out of ther "homeland " with this straegy??
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Indy
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:23 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):

FL is up to its eyeballs in new aircraft, and the DFW focus city has performed much worse than expected.

They only had 5 destinations. They were calling it a focus city? That has to be a tough place to try and do business. I just don't see how an LCC can operate effectively at an airport with long taxi times. It would seem that you'd want to be able to get in and out as quick as possible. Getting in and out fast saves a great deal of money in aircraft time and fuel.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
laca773
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:29 pm

Quoting Stirling (Reply 17):

Exactly and DFW aiport officials wonder why they are having such a hard time getting new flights to different cities from their airport.

Maybe FL should expand at SAT? It's seems to be a pretty underserved airport when it come to longer routes, like NYC, etc.

LACA773
 
quickmover
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:15 am

"Oh boy, the anti-Wright, pro-WN are going to love this. Talk about a hit towards DFW and AA.

-SOAC"


You may have something there. I believe there is some debate in congress scheduled soon about the Wright amendment. This could be useful ammunition for the anti-Wright politicians.
 
lax44
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:46 am

What were r/t fares like after DL pulled out and before FL entered the market? AA is still quoting $218 on its website atm.

I know UA flies this route (once per day I think).
 
ejmmsu
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:42 am

Quoting Lax44 (Reply 22):
What were r/t fares like after DL pulled out and before FL entered the market? AA is still quoting $218 on its website atm.

I know UA flies this route (once per day I think).

Advanced purchase fares were around $325-$400 during peak travel times.

I flew DFW-LGB in March 2004 and paid $315. This was the cheapest flight of all the So-cal airports. This was because America West was having a fare sale to LGB, and AA matched their fare.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
airxliban
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:49 am

Interesting development and sorry to hear it.

I remember when Air Tran launched this route AA had something like 12 flights a day between DFW and LAX and AirTran's CEO Leonard something or other said...

"Let them fill their 1058 seats. We'll concentrate on filling our 170"

Don't quote me on the numbers, but I remember him having said something along those lines.

Hopefully FL will be able to relaunch it soon.
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:06 am

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 24):
Hopefully FL will be able to relaunch it soon.

They aren't going to. It really annoys me that airlines now insist on using "because of rising fuel costs" as an excuse for cutting routes. If the route was performing well, it wouldn't have been cut. Even with rising fuel costs, airlines see that as a temporary shock, not a permanent one, and should then conduct business as usual, seeing that current losses will be negligible to future gains. If airTran was really doing well in DFW-LAX, they would have kept it, even if fuel costs made it unprofitable. It is hard to pull out of a market and then re-enter it. You lose a lot of customer faith after the first pull out, and it isn't easy to regain it. I wish airlines would just shut up about the fuel thing and say the truth: "Due to financial losses on this route, which have been worsened by rising fuel costs, we regret that we must end service in this market."

Sadly, airTran has had no luck in Dallas. Fort Lauderdale lasted a good two months, Tampa was pulled before it ever started, and Baltimore is supposedly not doing that great either. LAS and MCO, being high density leisure markets, are easy to fill, so I'd think they are doing satisfactory on those routes.

[Edited 2005-10-19 23:07:35]
a.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:25 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 25):
It is hard to pull out of a market and then re-enter it.

Although FL has been off-and-on with a few routes in the past. It tried PHL-BOS in the '90s but later replaced it w/ATL-BOS. However in early 2003, it reintroduced PHL-BOS service and it's increasing the frequency of those flights towards the end of this year. This is one case where a FL route was more successful in its second go-round; either that or PHL & BOS travelers learned the lesson of use it or loose it when it comes to LCC route offerings.

Truth be told, I think FL's temporarily dropping its DFW-LAX has more to do with taking some soon-to-be-gone TZ MDW routes. The timing's just too coincidental. It would appear that MDW's gain for FL is coming at DFW's expense. Depending on what happens w/TZ, we might be see history repeat itself in terms of FL holding off or cutting back its DFW offerings for greater potential at MDW.

Speaking of TZ, I wonder how soon it will be until TZ withdraws its MDW-DFW route only to have FL pick it up?
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
MD95
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:31 am

I flew FL last week DFW-LAX-DFW and both times the A/C was half empty (or half full) and I asked myself how long it could last. Even with cheaper fuel I wander how long an airline can sustain such a low Load Factor.
dario
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:38 am

I agree saying rising fuel costs is a poor excuse when dropping or "suspending" service.
FL was ignorant and set the bar too low. AA had no choice but to match what FL was offering and obviously DFW fliers for the most part chose to stick with AA. Now the fare will go back up to a level that will allow AA to make a profit as obviously $89 advance and $199 walk-up are too low to substantiate the cost of operating between DFW-LAX.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 15):
FL isn't scared of the superfortress that is DFW.

Scared or not they aren't performing at their expectations. It is up to them if they want to keep trying. Let's see how many cities they can try before they realize that only the two largest tourist destinations in the US and their hub are the only ones that can allow them operate profitably.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 15):
Why keep something that is making little money when you can shift to another city and make a lot of money?

Are you suggesting that all of FL's routes are money makers and this happened to be the poorest performer?
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
N1120A
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:41 am

Quoting Lax44 (Reply 22):

I know UA flies this route (once per day I think).

Yes, they are only on the route once per day

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 24):

"Let them fill their 1058 seats. We'll concentrate on filling our 170"

Don't quote me on the numbers, but I remember him having said something along those lines.

Well, it would not have been 170, because their 717s hold 117
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
airtran737
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:53 am

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 28):
Are you suggesting that all of FL's routes are money makers and this happened to be the poorest performer?

I'm suggesting that if DFW-LAX isn't making a lot of money, then why not move that aircraft to another city pair that can make a lot of money? Like for instance the announced service from MDW to MSP and MDW to BOS.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:30 am

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 30):
I'm suggesting that if DFW-LAX isn't making a lot of money, then why not move that aircraft to another city pair that can make a lot of money?

Then why not move it from a route that is making no money or losing money. It doesn't make sense to move it from a route that is making money despite fuel costs.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
jmhLUV2fly
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:20 pm

AirTran is always looking ahead and trying to capitalize on certain opportunities. Contrary to what legacy carriers would like to believe, like AA in DFW, there is good business reason why AirTran chose to do what I believe will be temporary suspension of service DFW-LAX, Dallas is not a small market and when AirTran feels it is the right time to return direct LAX service they will. Trust me when I say AirTran was/is making more money on the route with an empty airplane then American is with a full one, as FL overall as a company is profitible while American and the other Lagacy carriers cannot honestly claim true profitibilty anywhere on any route right now.
In regards to American causing the competition to "bleed", What exactly can American do in DFW that Delta cannot do in ATL? If there is any carrier doing the bleeding in Atlanta right now, it aint AirTran but rather the widget folks.
It is my belief that had ValueJet/AirTran begun in its infancy in DFW rather then ATL, they would have performed just as well against AA, American is not immune to the competition, yeah, Dallas is there headquearters and tend to score touch downs better with a home field advantage, but the day when AirTran really focuses on DFW, is the day American will really see competition, right now, its not a major major concern, I believe for the Orlando people, they see bigger fish to fry right now.
JMH
 
MAH4546
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:28 pm

Quoting Jmhluv2fly (Reply 32):
is profitible while American and the other Lagacy carriers cannot honestly claim true profitibilty anywhere on any route right now.

Haha. You have got to be kidding me. I can name at least dozens and dozens and dozens of American Airlines routes that are in the black...MIA-EZE, ORD-MAN, DFW-ZRH, MIA-MDE, MIA-LAX, MIA-SFO, DFW-EGE, MIA-EGE, ORD-RST...I could go on an on and on.

And if airTran was making money on LAX-DFW, negating for fuel prices, they would not have dropped it, simple as that.
a.
 
jmhLUV2fly
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:04 pm

People shall say what they will about company decisions. The fact of the matter is that there are certain few US carriers that are actually seeing profitibabilty today. I am not an expert on American's earnings, but I am pretty sure the carrier is not soaring high and profitable, yeah they may be filling up the airplanes, on non competitive markets yeah they may charging more to what evail? On competitive markets they are forced to match fares, a fare that the competition commonly delegates and a fare AirTran is comfortable with to make money on and a fare that American and others could not even begin to make money on, common, a couple hundred bucks to fly Dallas to LA? American matches it, to fill up the airplane, and also has the task of not only filling one plane on that route at that fare but rather probably 15- 20 flights throughout the day, while AirTran has fewer seats to fill.
Likely, non of us reading this forum, really know the "true" reason why AirTran has made the decision it has in the Dallas market, but one thing I do know, AirTran is doing something right, this is for sure, they are making making, somthing few other carriers can say.
One other thing I will add and then I ll let others comment, I remember when I was in training with AirTran back in 2002, our instructor told us, that after the 9/11 shut down in 2001, they still had ample cash reserves left in there account, and that was after not flying for three or so days, just like everyone else...AirTran probably could have gone another week without flying if needed and still been ok....how many airlines can say that? Very few!
JMH
 
MAH4546
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:10 pm

Quoting JmhLUV2fly (Reply 34):
One other thing I will add and then I ll let others comment, I remember when I was in training with AirTran back in 2002, our instructor told us, that after the 9/11 shut down in 2001, they still had ample cash reserves left in there account, and that was after not flying for three or so days, just like everyone else...AirTran probably could have gone another week without flying if needed and still been ok....how many airlines can say that? Very few!

Very true, few airlines can say that. American Airlines is one of them. American Airlines has more cash reserves than any other major airline, including Southwest. I believe, though I am not positive, that AMR's cash reserves are roughly three times what Southwest has, and it is way more than airTran.
a.
 
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mariner
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:16 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 35):
AMR's cash reserves are roughly three times what Southwest has, and it is way more than airTran.

Close, but not quite. According to Yahoo today the cash in hand is:

AMR: $3.4 billion.
LUV: $2.27 billion
AAI (Airtran) $367.81 million

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
jmhLUV2fly
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:53 pm

MAH4536:
If you could possibly educate me abit, and Im being serious when I ask this, for we all can benefit from being informed from time to time...
I will ask the questions and you and anybody else can expand abit...

From what you know:
*What are major US airlines' finanical status right now?
*Why are some airlines seeking bankrputcy protection to reorginize there "Debts"?
*Why are some airlines including American, laying off thousands, and cutting wages, parking airplanes in the dessert, while a few other airlines are doing the opposite? Could there cash reserves not help, considering
"American Airlines has more cash reserves than any other major airline"?

AMR: $3.4 billion.
LUV: $2.27 billion
AAI (Airtran) $367.81 million

*What are Americans operating cost, per seat per mile compared to the competition? Any advantage ? Any disadvantage?
*Why is American matching fares on competitive markets? I havnt flown AA, in many years, if there services is as great as I here, can they not afford to charge a little more, on competitive markets and offer the "better" service I here about?
*Finally, why are the US airline stocks performing terribly? Why is my 10 shares of Delta only worth only a mere 25 cents a share?

You may think Im trying to be smart with these questions. I am always looking to learn more and become informed, because there is always someone out there, that may just very well know something that you dont....so, please inform away, please.
Many thanks, JMH
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:13 pm

Quoting Jmhluv2fly (Reply 32):
as FL overall as a company is profitible

Actually, current analyst projections have Airtran losing money in 2005. Of course, Airtran may surprise and beat projections, but overall Airtran's financial performance is declining.
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:23 pm

Ok, this is the turning point for airlines. If LCC's can't make money in this environment with cheaper costs. And start pulling out of markets. Well, since some of the "old dogs" have more cash on hand to with stand the business climate. Is this the beginning of the end for some of the new ones? All those new airplanes coming in? No profits and short on cash in comparison? Just a question. After all, the employees of the LCC's can't take pay cuts? Can they? (yes a little sarcasm there. Not much) Even jetBlue has made a small profit. This business is really going to get interesting next year.


Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
commavia
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:40 pm

Quoting Jmhluv2fly (Reply 32):
Trust me when I say AirTran was/is making more money on the route with an empty airplane then American is with a full one

Yeah, right. I highly doubt it. As MAH said, I don't think AirTran would have dropped DFW-LAX is their planes were "making more money ... empty" than AA. Obviously, DFW-LAX was either unprofitable, or the level or profitability was lower than utilizing those 717s (or 737s) somewhere else.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 36):
AMR: $3.4 billion.

It's actually now up to $3.9 billion.

Quoting JmhLUV2fly (Reply 37):
What are major US airlines' finanical status right now?

American and Continental are relatively strong. AA has lots of cash, and is operationally profitable, but is net profit negative because of high interest payments. Continental is operationally profitable and net profitable as well, but has a fraction of the cash AA does. Both are much stronger than their legacy competitors, all of which are either in bankruptcy or just left it.

Quoting JmhLUV2fly (Reply 37):
Why are some airlines including American, laying off thousands, and cutting wages, parking airplanes in the dessert, while a few other airlines are doing the opposite?

Because they are acting irrationally by adding way too much capacity to the market, which is driving fares and yields down for everyone. Their relatively low operatings costs have cushioned most of the low-fare airlines from this up until now, but now the ridiculously low fares are even starting to catch up with them as fuel prices have skyrocketed.

Believe me, if I was AirTran -- I would not be proud of adding dozens of airplanes over the next few years. It is not helping their cause, nor any other airline's. The smart, fiscally prudent thing to do would be to hold the line on capacity growth, as AA and CO are smartly doing, rather than flooding the market with expensive, brand-new airplanes that they are going to have to lower prices to fill.
 
jmhLUV2fly
Posts: 539
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:05 pm

Thank you for the information that was provided, not exactly sure if I agree with the answers...but I do appreciate the input.
Yes, higher fuel cost are creating a challege for all airlines. It will be intresting to see who will be able to best endure the more expensive times.
I know who I am betting on, but from the responces to this thread looks like my bet is in the minority, we shall see.
Those Orlando people, play chess well. Time will only tell.

Commavia stated:
"Believe me, if I was AirTran -- I would not be proud of adding dozens of airplanes over the next few years. It is not helping their cause, nor any other airline's"
So why exactly is it not good for AirTran's cause to be adding aircraft?
If you are apart of the competition, it is not good for your cause, this is for sure. AirTran is poised to grow, adding more cities, routes and service, to meat this growth, they need more airplanes to allow AirTran to grow and offer competitive service.
".......rather than flooding the market with expensive, brand-new airplanes that they are going to have to lower prices to fill".
From what I understand, the markets, FL uses the new 737's the airline doesnt have a problem filling the airplanes, in markets like ..
FLL, MCO, BOS, FNT, LAS,ATL-LAX,DEN to name a few....
and believe it or not, those brand new expensive airplanes, are more fuel efficient then those old already paid for MD-80's, which is an important factor during these times.....If you can save on fuel over the competition, your already ahead of the pack.
ok, ok...I dont usually keep responding to these things.....just had to vent a bit..Im done now.
JMH
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Sat Oct 22, 2005 12:20 am

Quoting JmhLUV2fly (Reply 41):
believe it or not, those brand new expensive airplanes, are more fuel efficient then those old already paid for MD-80's

Not to nitpick here, but while J7 had a few MD-80s; their number was small in comparison to the number of DC-9s they had. For the record, FL (pre- & post-J7) never flew the MD-80 type.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
commavia
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:59 am

Quoting JmhLUV2fly (Reply 41):
So why exactly is it not good for AirTran's cause to be adding aircraft?

Because each plane they put into the already jam-packed U.S. air market is just going to drive fares a little lower. And, given that analysts project AirTran to lose money this quarter, next quarter, and for the full year 2005, I don't think lower fares is really what they need. And, JmhLUV2fly, don't get me wrong -- I am not just talking about AirTran. All the low-fare airlines are creating a capacity glut in this country and I firmly believe that it is going to come back and bite them in a few years from now. AirTran is going to be putting 52 new Boeing 717 and 737 jets into service in the next three years. JetBlue is going to be brining online 214 aircraft in the next six years! Southwest has 91 737s being delivered in the next 3 years. That's just three low-cost airlines (and there's more), and they are brining on line 357 jets between now and 2011! That is way too much capacity! Where are they going to put these planes without yields and RASM being ultimately driven down? The U.S. air travel market is growing, but not at a rate that will support 400 new airplanes in the domestic market in the next few years without a major erosion in the economics of the market.

Again, if I was AirTran, in this environment, I wouldn't be issuing press releases and proudly proclaiming to be the "fastest airline in history to reach 100 planes."

I hate to feed the cliche, but this is sounding like PEOPLExpress more and more each day.
 
FCYTravis
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:27 am

Those 91 new 73G that WN is getting are not all going to be new-service planes, are they though? I would assume they're going to retire some of the older 733s and 735s, which are getting on into their twenties now.
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:23 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 43):
Again, if I was AirTran, in this environment, I wouldn't be issuing press releases and proudly proclaiming to be the "fastest airline in history to reach 100 planes."

Considering that they (as J7) were almost wiped out because the 1996 crash of Flight 592; reaching the milestone of having 100 plane fleet some 9 years later is indeed a testimonial.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
flyibaby
Posts: 717
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:23 am

RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Sat Oct 22, 2005 6:18 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 43):
Where are they going to put these planes without yields and RASM being ultimately driven down?

AirTran has been a fairly good leader at creating new p2p markets. Granted alot of these have been to high density markets like MCO, but nonetheless they have created and stimulated a market.
I think you will see new alliances created in the next decade whereas LCCs become the domestic feed to airlines like DL and UA for their transatlantic and pacific routes. I honestly believe this industry will do a complete 360 from the way it looks now, and these new aircraft orders will just create a more efficient fleet much like the MD-80 did for AA in the 1980s
 
jmhLUV2fly
Posts: 539
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 1999 4:15 pm

RE: Airtran Pulling Out Of DFW-LAX

Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:01 pm

ok, ok, I just gotta respond once more....

I am curious as to why analyst have picked of all the US airlines out there flying, AirTran to be the one to lose money in 2005. The analyst may very well know something I do not, those people are the experts that study the financial numbers and project company futures, but I bet you that in the same breath those people had to state something about your AA, DL, UAL's, NWA's of the world, when it comes to profitibility or lack there of, the above mentioned carriers are the ones making the news and it is companies like AirTran that legacy carriers wish were not making the news, because 9 times out of 10 it is news in AirTran's favor, a cancer of sorts that wont go away, shucks.
Ill be the first to admit, no airline is immune to finanical stuggles and downfalls.
Last year when several hurricanes plagued the Florida coast,
(and this year too) and took a bite out of airline operations, AirTran was very quick to focus on reducing costs. Toward the latter part of September 2004, the airline promply reduced the work force in PNS
(and likely in similiarly effected Florida cities) and cut the flight schedule to 2 flights a day. That quarter from what I understand did turn out to be unprofitable, the first quarter in what FOUR years, they had not seen profitibilty! Thats quite an accomplishment I must say.
They may very well not see profitabilty the final quarter this year, but I firmly believe the airline is in a much better position and poised to control its cost better then larger legacy carrier, despite the uprise in energy cost.

Second point....
Competition is good! I can remember before AirTran began service to PNS, the round trip ticket cost just to ATL on DL was somewhere around 800 bucks. The second AirTran came to town, well, well, what do you know...the fares fell, big time and you can fly up to ATL now for as little as $138.00
In Pensacola, AirTran is filling up there airplanes, I was speaking with one of the employees today, and she confessed,
"Were, full, been that way for awhile..." Give you an example, last Saturday, final two Atlanta departures of the day, one airplane operated by FL, the other by DL....Saturdays are usually slower right? Well, Delta boarded around 25- 30 passengers on that final flight, AirTran? nearly full, about 110 from what I understand. Thats tell me something right there.
AirTran is filling the airplanes, at a lower fare, because a lower fare is what the passenger wants, the airline offers a valueable product at a good price and there you have it.......Is it a bad thing one company plays the game in a smart way? I think not.
By 2011, we shall certainly see a heck of a lot more airplanes operated by carriers that by that time have proven they can play the game well.
I believe by that time, many of the legacy carriers you see today, will have ethier been acquired by a present up and coming LCC, or gone out of business all together. Who would have thought 10 years ago that age old TWA would be gone few years later, I wouldnt have.
Time and money is of the essence. Those who play there cards well win the game. Let the games begin.
JMH- Pensacola Florida in the house, (Roy Jones Junior thing...)

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