HAJFlyer
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Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:52 pm

There does not seem to be a lot of activity in the market for 19-seater turboprops at the moment.

The following western aircraft have occupied this niche for quite some time:

- The DHC-6 "Twin Otter" first flew for Trans-Australian Airlines in 1966
- The Embraer EMB-110 "Bandeirante" was introduced in 1973
- The Fairchild Metro entered service in 1973
- The CASA C212 (max. accommodation actually 26) entered service in 1975
- The Dornier Do 228 came on the market in 1982
- The Cessna 208 Caravan/Grand Caravan entered service in 1984
- The Beech 1900 C entered service in 1984 and the 1900 D in 1991.

While demand for second hand non-pressurised 19-seaters able to operate from short airfields with poor infrastructure appears to be somewhat robust, it seems that there is very little demand for faster pressurized pax 19-seaters from commuter/feeder airlines.

Why is that the case ?

Do you think that a new 19-seater (to succeed those B1900 D in service today with carriers such as Great Lakes that serve thin routes that often cannot support a Saab 340 or an EMB 120) will be developed in the years to come and if so by whom ?

[Edited 2005-10-19 12:55:12]

[Edited 2005-10-19 13:01:26]
 
Allessandro
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:06 pm

Althought not pressurized, I spoke to these guys at the Evora Air Show 2005. Appears to be a french company with plans to manufacture a multi purpose a/c that can carry upto 19 passengers, do firefighting and can transport 3 standard LD3 (?) containers. There is currently a mock-up of the cockpit at the airfield.

http://www.skylander-aircraft.net/
 
bomber996
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:08 pm

Are the 19 seaters even really that profitable? For the most part I'd say the routes flown by 1900's in the Northeast are just there for the subsidy money the government gives to the airlines to fly these routes. Is there any profit besides this?

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Two biggest lies in aviation... "I'm from the FAA and I'm here to help you." & "Traffic in sight."
 
VgnAtl747
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:16 pm

It's just so, so ugly though...
Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
 
HAJFlyer
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:25 pm

Quoting Allessandro (Reply 1):
Althought not pressurized, I spoke to these guys at the Evora Air Show 2005.

Thanks for the link Allessandro, I have never heard of these guys before. The aircraft looks like cross between a Shorts and a Casa. I would imagine that this aircraft is primarily aimed at military users.

Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 2):
Are the 19 seaters even really that profitable? For the most part I'd say the routes flown by 1900's in the Northeast are just there for the subsidy money the government gives to the airlines to fly these routes

Bomber996, you are most likely right in saying that quite a few of the routes operated by B1900 receive subsidies under the EAS (essential air service) program.

Explanation of EAS:

http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/rural/easwhat.pdf
 
Tornado82
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:04 am

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 4):
Bomber996, you are most likely right in saying that quite a few of the routes operated by B1900 receive subsidies under the EAS (essential air service) program.

All the Air Midwest B1900's flying for US-X are EAS or otherwise subsidized (SCASD) to my knowledge.

However, Commutair runs a pretty extensive non-EAS network for Continental Connection using B1900's. Routes like CLE-DTW/FWA/SBN/PIT/ERI, then random routes across the Northeast like ABE-BOS, ALB-MHT, etc.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:28 am

Do 19-seaters need flight attendants on board?

Cheers
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:30 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 6):

No...FAA rules state 1 FA for every 20-50 pax. Thats why the 1900 series was such a huge success.

[Edited 2005-10-19 19:31:06]
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
HAJFlyer
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:36 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 6):
Do 19-seaters need flight attendants on board?

Part 91 of the FAR (The FAA general regulations governing flight operations) do not currently require emergency-trained personnel on board aircraft with 19 or fewer seats.
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:10 am

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 8):
Part 91 of the FAR (The FAA general regulations governing flight operations) do not currently require emergency-trained personnel on board aircraft with 19 or fewer seats.

Part 91 limits seating to 9 for scheduled ops. All real airlines operate under part 121.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
HAJFlyer
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:14 am

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 9):
Part 91 limits seating to 9 for scheduled ops. All real airlines operate under part 121.

I stand corrected. Thanks.  embarrassed 
 
nkops
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:14 am

I think when 19 seaters were thrown under Part 121 from Part 135, it made alot of them unprofitable. I believe the reason for the change was so the 19 passenger aircraft would have to meet the same maintenance requirements as other commercial aircraf
:evil:
 
N1120A
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:20 pm

Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 2):
Are the 19 seaters even really that profitable? For the most part I'd say the routes flown by 1900's in the Northeast are just there for the subsidy money the government gives to the airlines to fly these routes. Is there any profit besides this?

Subsidies help in a lot of markets, but others hold their own because people are willing to pay good money for the flights.

Quoting Nkops (Reply 11):
I believe the reason for the change was so the 19 passenger aircraft would have to meet the same maintenance requirements as other commercial aircraf

Yeah, it is a good thing they were forced to, though it didn't stop Mesa from f'ing up and having a B1900 crash because of a bad elevator tab that was reported to MX by their check captain more than a week prior
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Tornado82
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:01 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
B1900 crash because of a bad elevator tab that was reported to MX by their check captain more than a week prior

If that's CLT... didn't the aircraft get worked on like the day prior, but faulty maintenance?
 
HAJFlyer
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:15 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 13):
that's CLT... didn't the aircraft get worked on like the day prior, but faulty maintenance

Here is the old thread on that crash:
Charlotte Crash (by Lparky Jan 8 2003 in Civil Aviation)
 
A330323X
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:19 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 5):
All the Air Midwest B1900's flying for US-X are EAS or otherwise subsidized (SCASD) to my knowledge.

MCI-LIT and RDU-CHS/ORF are the only three of Air Midwest's US Airways Express routes left that aren't receiving EAS subsidy. Two or three years ago, there were dozens of them.

Colgan still flies a bunch of them, though again not as many as they once did. BOS-ACK/ALB/HPN/ISP/SYR and LGA-ACK/ALB/HYA/MHT/MVY/PVD come to mind.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
Yeah, it is a good thing they were forced to, though it didn't stop Mesa from f'ing up and having a B1900 crash because of a bad elevator tab that was reported to MX by their check captain more than a week prior



Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 13):
If that's CLT... didn't the aircraft get worked on like the day prior, but faulty maintenance?

Yes, the plane's elevator was fixed incorrectly, two or three days before the crash.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
Tornado82
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:46 pm

Quoting A330323X (Reply 15):
Colgan still flies a bunch of them, though again not as many as they once did. BOS-ACK/ALB/HPN/ISP/SYR and LGA-ACK/ALB/HYA/MHT/MVY/PVD come to mind.

Some of those are Saab routes now. I flew one MHT-LGA-PIT last year after getting a voluntary bump on MHT-PIT. Looking at flytecomm, the only little Colgan sons of Beeches I saw running LGA was LGA-LEB, and a triangle LGA-HYA-ACK, rest were Saabs.

Honestly, I feel like I'm in a sturdier plane when I'm in a Beech compared to the Saab, size be damned.
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:05 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 15):
Yes, the plane's elevator was fixed incorrectly, two or three days before the crash.

Don't they do test flights on their work... If not, they should... I think Mechanics should be certified to fly commercial aircraft they work on for under 10,000 feet to make sure everything works correctly... JMHO
Puhdiddle
 
A330323X
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:15 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 16):
Quoting A330323X (Reply 15):
Colgan still flies a bunch of them, though again not as many as they once did. BOS-ACK/ALB/HPN/ISP/SYR and LGA-ACK/ALB/HYA/MHT/MVY/PVD come to mind.

Some of those are Saab routes now. I flew one MHT-LGA-PIT last year after getting a voluntary bump on MHT-PIT. Looking at flytecomm, the only little Colgan sons of Beeches I saw running LGA was LGA-LEB, and a triangle LGA-HYA-ACK, rest were Saabs.

Many of those routes also get Saab (and/or Dash) frequencies, but they've all got Beech frequencies as well. Some are seasonal.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
bomber996
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:29 am

I do my towered work for my PPL at LEB because it's the closest towered airport to LCI (Laconia Mun., NH). I always love watching the Colgan Beeches come into LEB. Makes me glad that there is another airport in NH besides MHT and PSM that get regular scheduled service. In LEB's case its 3x daily to LGA. Puts a warm feeling in my heart, as queer as that may sound.  Silly

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Two biggest lies in aviation... "I'm from the FAA and I'm here to help you." & "Traffic in sight."
 
Lono
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:10 am

What about the JS31 or 32's...???? They held 19 PAX and they had lots of headroom... anyone still operate these..???
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
HAJFlyer
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:25 am

Quoting Lono (Reply 20):
What about the JS31 or 32's...????

You are right, I forgot about them. AFAIK no commuter airline serving on of the major legacy network carriers in the US operates them any more.
 
Capital146
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:33 am

Quoting Lono (Reply 20):
What about the JS31 or 32's...???? They held 19 PAX and they had lots of headroom... anyone still operate these..???



Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 21):
You are right, I forgot about them. AFAIK no commuter airline serving on of the major legacy network carriers in the US operates them any more.

However, here in the UK, we have Eastern Airways, a successful regional carrier, which still operates 6 J32's together with 15 of it's large sister, the J41 (and also 4 Saab 2000's).


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Tornado82
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:55 am

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 21):
You are right, I forgot about them. AFAIK no commuter airline serving on of the major legacy network carriers in the US operates them any more.

What about Regions Air or whomever that is, from the Kirksville, MO crash, dba as an American Connection carrier?
 
HAJFlyer
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:02 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 23):
What about Regions Air or whomever that is, from the Kirksville, MO crash, dba as an American Connection carrier?

You are right, Regions Air still operate the J32.

I was just thinking about American Eagle, UA Express, CO Express etc. and forgot the Connection carriers.

http://www.regionsair.com/aircraft.html
 
ANZ772
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:33 pm

Why did Embraer cancel the CBA-123 Vector after test flying it?. My guess is financial, but couldn't they manufacture it now?.
 
HAJFlyer
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:14 pm

Quoting ANZ772 (Reply 25):
Why did Embraer cancel the CBA-123 Vector after test flying it?.

Good Question.

AFAIK they destroyed the only two prototypes the had been built. At an early stage of the program they had 150 options from 18 potetial customers among them Ontario Express, Express Airlines, Skywest, Argentinian Air force).

One reason for its failure might have been the rather high price of app. USD 6 mio at the time. Maybe our Brazilian friends have some more information on why this project was abandoned.


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ThePinnacleKid
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:56 am

< Off the subject >

I went to the RegionsAir website that was posted earlier... I noticed under employment they are recruiting F/A's for SF340s. Does anyone have any info about them and their plans concerning current J32s and when the SF340s are joining the fleet and where they are coming from?

-Chris
"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
 
Pyrex
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:09 am

Quoting Allessandro (Reply 1):
Althought not pressurized, I spoke to these guys at the Evora Air Show 2005

So you were there, also...

I am currently finishing my degree in Aerospace Engineering and we have heard a lot about that aircraft here at my University. It was designed by a French engineering consulting group, GECI, and they intend to build a factory in Évora to produce it. I still have my doubts if it really is going forward, though. There certainly has been a lot of talk on TV and the newspapers about that. I would imagine it to be a sort of rugged Casa C-212 Aviocar replacement.
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HAJFlyer
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:09 am

Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 27):
Does anyone have any info about them and their plans concerning current J32s and when the SF340s are joining the fleet and where they are coming from?

Hi Chris,

Hope this helps:

Smyrna (Nashville), Tennessee, October 13, 2005 - Viva International, Inc. (VIVI.OB) announced today that in conjunction with its decision to acquire RegionsAir that it will be providing a fleet of SAAB 340 aircraft to RegionsAir for use in providing service under recently awarded new Essential Air Service routes. The company will provide additional details of the acquisition of the aircraft and terms thereof soon.

By order dated September 9, 2005, the US Department of Transportation (DOT) selected RegionsAir to provide subsidized Essential Air Service to Parkersburg, Morgantown and Clarksburg/Fairmont, West Virginia for a two year period, establishing a combined subsidy rate of $1,051,333 per year for service to Cincinnati utilizing SAAB 340 aircraft.

Fred Breeden, Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer of RegionsAir, Inc., commented, "We are pleased with the DOT?s decision to select RegionsAir for the new West Virginia routes. This moves our operation into cabin class service and will add approximately $6 million annually in gross passenger revenues to our Company. We are anxious to place the SAAB 340?s into usage and anticipate an orderly transition."
 
Tornado82
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:33 am

Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 27):
I noticed under employment they are recruiting F/A's for SF340s. Does anyone have any info about them and their plans concerning current J32s and when the SF340s are joining the fleet and where they are coming from?

More on the prior post:

Regions Air bid for, and received the subsidies for, running MGW/CKB (West Virginia) EAS routes to CVG, without an interline/codeshare agreement. The bid was for running the route with an SF-340. The routes are currently run by Air Midwest/US-X B1900's to PIT, but Morgantown and Clarksburg, in what may have been the biggest brain fart of all time, decided they'd rather have no interline service to CVG, than through connections on US through a rather-shrunken PIT. There was a thread on this, and alot of speculation about why Regions Air bid with the SF-340 instead, not to mention what these pax are going to do once they get to CVG... one of the country's most expensive O&D airports, without a through itcket.

[Edited 2005-10-23 20:35:37]
 
sideflare75
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:20 am

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 17):
Don't they do test flights on their work... If not, they should... I think Mechanics should be certified to fly commercial aircraft they work on for under 10,000 feet to make sure everything works correctly... JMHO

Now that would be interesting. "Hey you guys take that MD-80 over there for a spin to make sure you did your work correctly". You are kidding right??
 
ThePinnacleKid
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:42 pm

Thanks for all the info.... Very odd EAS awards but hey... that would be how the industry works.

Chris
"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
 
Tornado82
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RE: Any Plans For New 19 Seater Turboprop?

Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:21 pm

Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 32):
Thanks for all the info.... Very odd EAS awards but hey... that would be how the industry works.

Yeah, well, I'm just glad I moved out of Fayette County, PA (right up the road from MGW) before it all went down hill with this.