JAM747
Topic Author
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:17 am

Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:35 am

I have been reading quite a few trends here on a.net regarding possible stops between Japan Narita (NRT) and Brazil Sao Paulo (GRU). Some the flights between these cities usually make a stop in either the U.S, Mexico, or Canada. However recent in transit visa requirements by the U.S and possibly Mexico have affected the traffic on these routes. This also have affected the airlines which do these routes and some are seeking alternative routes with stops. . It seems that a large number of people travel between Japan and Brazil. Is it possible that Montego Bay Jamaica could be a feasible stop between NRT AND GRU even if it just a fuel stop? The distance between NRT and MBJ is about 6883nm and between MBJ and GRU it is about 3118nm. These routes seem to be in the range of the aircrafts of JAL , Varig or other airlines with B747, B777, MD11, A340 etc. I know alot of Japanese go to Jamaica and from Montego Bay there are a number flights to other Caribbean countries. I am not sure of the traffic of Brazilians to Jamaica or other Caribbean countries and I don't think they need a visa especially if the flight only stops for fuel. What do you guys think?
 
USADreamliner
Posts: 1211
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:33 pm

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:52 am

I think is not possible.
what's next? Sao Paulo-Easter Island-Noumea-Osaka?
Rio de Janeiro-Acapulco-Beijing?



 Wink  Big grin  Wink  Big grin  Wink
 
JAM747
Topic Author
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:17 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:55 am

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 1):
I think is not possible.
what's next? Sao Paulo-Easter Island-Noumea-Osaka?
Rio de Janeiro-Acapulco-Beijing?

Why not? any particular reason?

Regards.
 
MGA
Posts: 717
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:58 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:00 am

There might not be enough traffic from MBJ to NRT, maybe only the brazilians. Is there enough market for Japanese or Brazilians vacationing in Jamaica? This would definetely be a compensating factor.

MGA
Que viva el guaro, el dinero y los aviones!!!
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:05 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:24 am

Change MBJ for HAV and then we're talking.
I don't think Mexico is going to require trasit visas for Brazilians flying for example GRU-TIJ-NRT, GRU-MTY-NRT or GRU-CUN-NRT in the same aircraft.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
JAM747
Topic Author
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:17 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:26 am

Quoting MGA (Reply 3):
There might not be enough traffic from MBJ to NRT, maybe only the brazilians

There might be Japanese going from NRT to GRU who might use this route. Also I do know that alot of Japanese vacation and do business in Jamaica and Caribbean which normally change planes in Miami or somewhere else in the U.S to get there. Montego Bay is a good place to connect to other islands in the Caribbean if one cannot get a direct flights to other islands there. A direct route from NRT to GRU is about 9978nm. (NRT to MBJ is 6883nm)+ (MBJ to GRU is 3118nm)= 10001nm. This means if there is enough traffic to do this route ,at least MBJ would not be too much out of the way between NRT and GRU.  

[Edited 2005-10-19 22:29:38]
 
ktachiya
Posts: 1501
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:54 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:43 am

Quoting JAM747 (Reply 5):
There might be Japanese going from NRT to GRU who might use this route. Also I do know that alot of Japanese vacation and do business in Jamaica and Caribbean which normally change planes in Miami or somewhere else in the U.S to get there.

Did you happen to read my threat that I posted last week on a similar topic? well just in case you didn't many people posted that Japan was extremely hard in granting RG the right to fly from ZHR-NRT. So if u take that into consideration, the Brazilian government is just going to be as hard on that Japanese carriers to do this.
Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
 
JAM747
Topic Author
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:17 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:45 am

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 6):
Did you happen to read my threat that I posted last week on a similar topic? well just in case you didn't many people posted that Japan was extremely hard in granting RG the right to fly from ZHR-NRT. So if u take that into consideration, the Brazilian government is just going to be as hard on that Japanese carriers to do this.

I don't think I saw that trend. Do you have the link or remember the topic? I will be sure to check it out if you do . Thanks
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7876
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:54 am

Any place such as LIS or MAD would be better. NYC and YYZ are right on the path of a theoretical non-stop flight.

The problem is that MBJ and LIS/MAD don't have the same number of high-yielding pax RG is after (a la LAX and ZRH).

Plus I don't think a fuel stop-over would really matter as far as rights go, meaning they could stop where gas is cheaper (CCS?).

Would be an interesting flight to say the least, but just not realistic.

Cheers
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:54 am

Quoting JAM747 (Reply 2):
Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 1):
I think is not possible.
what's next? Sao Paulo-Easter Island-Noumea-Osaka?
Rio de Janeiro-Acapulco-Beijing?

Why not? any particular reason?

Regards.

You've got to have a reasonable base for local traffic.

Unless Jamaica becomes a hot market for the Japanese, MBJ could never support such an operation.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:02 am

Quoting JAM747 (Thread starter):
Some the flights between these cities usually make a stop in either the U.S, Mexico, or Canada

In my view: impossible.

As posted before, the alternative routes Japn-Brazil are now via Europe and Canada: almost same miles and travel time.

Rgs,
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7876
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:26 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 8):

Plus I don't think a fuel stop-over would really matter as far as rights go, meaning they could stop where gas is cheaper (CCS?).

Hmmm.... I really like that idea.

How much cheaper is Av-fuel in CCS versus say, NYC/ LAX or Europe?

Could it be competitive considering B777/A340/B747 competition through NYC/FRA/CDG?

Any market at CCS for Japan? There is always connections to the caribbean I guess. Maybe a codeshare with a Venezuelan carrier? Let's consider a B787 for the proposed route.

Brazil-Japan via CCS is only 16km longer than non-stop.

What about the CCS-NRT rights?

Cheers

[Edited 2005-10-19 23:28:02]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
JAM747
Topic Author
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:17 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:13 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
Brazil-Japan via CCS is only 16km longer than non-stop.

What about the CCS-NRT rights?

Good suggestion PPVRA. I thought about that too, I was hoping to hear your comments on this.
 
bsbisland
Posts: 315
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:45 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:55 am

I think the days of Varig flying to Japan are over, and if LAX doesn´t work anymore, it will be quite difficult for any other destination. It´s too simple and convenient in these days of codeshares and alliances not to have this too long routes if not really profitable.

But anyway, I love Jamaica, and would love to see this in my next life.
Rio de Janeiro-Kingston-Tokyo  Smile
 
User avatar
Buyantukhaa
Posts: 2289
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 5:33 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:57 am

Preferably the flight path would not take it over US airspace, because even then it may occasioanlly be forced to land if some passenger is not a "friend" of the US. Of course this is a minor issue compared to the transit visa problem, but may be taken into consideration.
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
Brasuca
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:05 am

Since you are talking about so many possible routes via low yielding cities, why not GRU-BEY-NRT?

Beirut-São Paulo has been discussed for a while, as MEA evaluated resuming flights to Brazil last year.

But, honestly, we're not going to see VARIG flights with their own metal to Japan for the next half decade.
Varig, Varig, Varig
 
Carpethead
Posts: 2565
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:15 pm

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:30 am

How long is the runway at either KIN or MBJ? If it isn't 3,500m or over forget it.

While we are at it, I propose a NRT-TIP-GRU? It seems Libya is increasingly becoming a Japanese destination for business (oil) & pleasure.
 
JAM747
Topic Author
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:17 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:07 am

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 16):
How long is the runway at either KIN or MBJ? If it isn't 3,500m or over forget it.

Not sure of the exact length but I know the Concorde used to land at MBJ for a while and 747s from AC (when they had them), BA, and even Air Jamaica leased 747s have used there.
 
PPSMA
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:11 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:57 am

Quote:
JAM747

Is it possible that Montego Bay Jamaica could be a feasible stop between NRT AND GRU even if it just a fuel stop?

Not in this life!!

The only thing that the great majority of Brazilians know about Jamaica is that Peter Tosh was Jamaican and that weed is top quality ...  banghead 

If you look at the number of Brazilians who travel to Jamaica either on business or leisure you´ll understand what I´m saying!

Now, if this route was that important (GRU/NRT) as everybody has been stating, don´t you think that :

1) JAL would have increased their frequencies to daily?
2) The European Airlines would not be heavily promoting JAPAN in the market?
3) RG would not only fight for more frequencies but also go back flying into OSA?
4) ANA would not have put enough pressure on both governments to obtain traffic rights via Europe?

C´mon, people, wake up!

Cheers,

Domenico
Aviation is my thing!
 
JAM747
Topic Author
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:17 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:07 pm

Quoting PPSMA (Reply 18):
Now, if this route was that important (GRU/NRT) as everybody has been stating, don´t you think that :

1) JAL would have increased their frequencies to daily?
2) The European Airlines would not be heavily promoting JAPAN in the market?
3) RG would not only fight for more frequencies but also go back flying into OSA?
4) ANA would not have put enough pressure on both governments to obtain traffic rights via Europe?

C´mon, people, wake up!

Cheers,

I was only curious since there have so many trends on this subject and was hoping to get ideas from people who might know more. PPSA I am glad to hear your opinion as I notice from your profile that you are a trave agent.
Thanks.
 
Carpethead
Posts: 2565
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:15 pm

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:39 pm

Quoting JAM747 (Reply 17):
Not sure of the exact length but I know the Concorde used to land at MBJ for a while and 747s from AC (when they had them), BA, and even Air Jamaica leased 747s have used there.

Thanks for the info. I already knew that beforehand, so the runway at both airports must be at least 2,500m. YYZ-KIN/MBJ on 747 with only that much runway is no problem. Much different with winter headwinds going to NRT on full payload on a A343/744/777.

Quoting PPSMA (Reply 18):
RG would not only fight for more frequencies but also go back flying into OSA?

Did RG ever serve Osaka loooong time ago? I was under the impression it never did and NGO & NRT (HND) were the only Japanese airports to ever see RG service.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5048
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:40 pm

Quoting PPSMA (Reply 18):
Now, if this route was that important (GRU/NRT) as everybody has been stating, don´t you think that :

1) JAL would have increased their frequencies to daily?
2) The European Airlines would not be heavily promoting JAPAN in the market?
3) RG would not only fight for more frequencies but also go back flying into OSA?
4) ANA would not have put enough pressure on both governments to obtain traffic rights via Europe?

Hi Domenico!
Nice words. And i agree. Seems that Brazil-Japan lost a lot of traffic when compared to 10 years ago. I work in a Bank with interests in Japan and we could obtain the same info, altough the community remains huge, they keep more time (and even stays in Japan). Brazil is a good market for Japanease looking for tourist, but it's far.
Nowadays you can travel from Brazil to Japan thru several airlines, and seems that each one keep a stake of this market.
Only if one day an airline offer a non stop (!) GRU-NRT i could see a huge movement, but without, remember that many pax are concerned with Frequent Flyer and Prices (it means diversification will be increased)

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
XA744
Posts: 630
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:40 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:47 pm

... GIG/GRU-TIJ-NRT/NGO/KIX.... Very feasible... allow me to say !

No matter that AM is in Skyteam and RG with Star, a joint operation by both airlines from Brazil and Mexico to Japan and beyond, is an option and should be pursued.

A crazy idea ?... Well, just killing time !

Regards
No matter how you fly...just never get your wings clipped !
 
bsbisland
Posts: 315
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:45 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:07 pm

Quoting PPSMA (Reply 18):
1) JAL would have increased their frequencies to daily?
2) The European Airlines would not be heavily promoting JAPAN in the market?
3) RG would not only fight for more frequencies but also go back flying into OSA?
4) ANA would not have put enough pressure on both governments to obtain traffic rights via Europe?

OSA, or KIX was never served by Varig, but NGO.

Well, if you consider that Brazil-Japan is a quite competitive market with JL,RG,AA,DL,CO,UA,AC,AF,LH,AZ,LX,BA and KL having flights with only one stop and quite convenient connections you would find out that the market is not restricted to JL or RG flights.

I don´t know if the European airlines promote Japan heavily, but I´m sure they consider those pax going to anywhere in Asia, Africa or wherever, but specially to Japan. In this forum I´ve seen a few times people saying about LX flights to GRU and the amount of pax going to Japan via ZRH.

About ANA flying to Brazil, that doesn´t mean the market is not important. London I believe is an important market, but why VS hasn´t started flying to Brazil yet? Or MEX and Mexicana? Things just don´t work like that.
 
JAM747
Topic Author
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:17 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:24 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21):
Only if one day an airline offer a non stop (!) GRU-NRT i could see a huge movement

That would need a ultra long range aircraft that can cover the almost 10,000nm journey and would take about 19 hours. It might not be too long before a aircraft is available that can to that range. The 777LR , a version of the 787 is close to doing that. If possible, a direct non-stop route from NRT to GRU would probably be very profitable .
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:31 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 16):
How long is the runway at either KIN or MBJ? If it isn't 3,500m or over forget it.

You are right, I thought about this, too.

Here we go:
KIN: 2713 meters
MBJ:2662 meters

Source: http://gc.kls2.com

I agree, it´s impossible.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
JAM747
Topic Author
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:17 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:29 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 25):
I agree, it´s impossible

Impossible for what? A large plane landing?

As mentioned before

Quoting JAM747 (Reply 17):
Not sure of the exact length but I know the Concorde used to land at MBJ for a while and 747s from AC (when they had them), BA, and even Air Jamaica leased 747s have used there.

I think KIN has been extended in the last few years but I personally saw the the Concorde , 747s ( one of which I flew on), MD11s, A340 ( Air Jamaica has a few), etc land at MBJ.
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:32 pm

Quoting JAM747 (Reply 26):
Impossible for what? A large plane landing?

Getting a longhaul aircraft nonstop from there to NRT is impossible, not a large plane landing there.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7876
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:43 pm

Quoting XA744 (Reply 22):
... GIG/GRU-TIJ-NRT/NGO/KIX.... Very feasible... allow me to say !

Why TIJ and not MEX?

MEX is hot & high, but it should be feasible given that the B772LR can do CCS-NRT non-stop. PLus, it's a non-stop flight from MEX to Japan, without a stop-over in Canada (JL).

Cheers
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
airbazar
Posts: 6860
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:13 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 9):
You've got to have a reasonable base for local traffic.

Tell that to SA. How much traffic do they pick up at Sal?  Smile
 
JAM747
Topic Author
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:17 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:14 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 27):
Getting a longhaul aircraft nonstop from there to NRT is impossible, not a large plane landing there.

Now I see what you mean.  Smile Probably a 777LR, A340-500 or a 787 if the route was worth it? The distance between is NRT-MBJ 6883nm not sure in km.
 
XA744
Posts: 630
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:40 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:44 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 28):
Why TIJ and not MEX?

Because....

1.- TIJ being at sea level offers no operational limitations to current long haulers being operated by RG.

2.- TWOV handling would be lot easier at TIJ airport than MEX.

3.- San Diego area traffic to Japan and beyond, could be shuttled to TIJ airport, thus in this manner avoiding the LAX ordeal. Here we have a market niche !

Regards
No matter how you fly...just never get your wings clipped !
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:55 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 29):
Tell that to SA. How much traffic do they pick up at Sal?

What????

The topic was GRU and NRT, not SAL.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5048
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:42 am

Quoting BSBIsland (Reply 23):
About ANA flying to Brazil, that doesn´t mean the market is not important. London I believe is an important market, but why VS hasn´t started flying to Brazil yet?

*Off-Topic and just to reply*
As far as i know, VS is still doing analisys on Brazilian Market. GIG is on their wish list because of the huge improvement in Oil Biz (and there are at least 10 big british companies runing business in Rio) as well as the main areas of British Embassy (the General Consulate is in Rio). Rio is also the first destination for leisure in Brazil for British. I see VS flying to Brazil in 2006 or 2007. Altough they made a partnership with Tam to share their vip lounge at JFK is something paid, not for free. I remember all that TAM uses British Airways space at MIA (paid too) and Miami is a consolidated and strong JJ market.

Sorry to all the others for the off-topic.

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:05 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:51 am

Quoting XA744 (Reply 31):
1.- TIJ being at sea level offers no operational limitations to current long haulers being operated by RG.

2.- TWOV handling would be lot easier at TIJ airport than MEX.

3.- San Diego area traffic to Japan and beyond, could be shuttled to TIJ airport, thus in this manner avoiding the LAX ordeal. Here we have a market niche !

If JL want to serve the SAN/TIJ metro area, this could be a good option.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
PPSMA
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:11 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:56 am

Quote:
JAM747 (Reply 19)

I was only curious since there have so many trends on this subject and was hoping to get ideas from people who might know more. PPSA I am glad to hear your opinion as I notice from your profile that you are a trave agent.
Thanks.

Anytime, mate! I'm only glad we're free to throw in our personal points-of view, right? Big grin

Quote:

BSBIsland (Reply 23)

OSA, or KIX was never served by Varig, but NGO

My mistake: it was 1 am when I posted this reply!

Quote:


BSBIsland Reply 23,

Well, if you consider that Brazil-Japan is a quite competitive market with JL,RG,AA,DL,CO,UA,AC,AF,LH,AZ,LX,BA and KL having flights with only one stop and quite convenient connections you would find out that the market is not restricted to JL or RG flights.I don´t know if the European airlines promote Japan heavily, but I´m sure they consider those pax going to anywhere in Asia, Africa or wherever, but specially to Japan. In this forum I´ve seen a few times people saying about LX flights to GRU and the amount of pax going to Japan via ZRH.

Exactly my point: the present capacity pretty much covers the existing traffic demand, however NOT one single airline specifically promotes JAPAN!

Quote:

About ANA flying to Brazil, that doesn´t mean the market is not important. London I believe is an important market, but why VS hasn´t started flying to Brazil yet? Or MEX and Mexicana? Things just don´t work like that.

Dear friend, if VS does not fly to Brazil it's only because of a couple of very simple reasons:
1) markets with higher priorities - they certainly have other markets which look more promising than Brazil. India, for one, is right now on the top of the agenda for both British and Indian airlines
2) capacity constraint: VS does not have enough widebodies to fly everywhere they're already committed to, let alone to explore new markets.
3) competition: BA does a wonderful job serving Brazil and I'm VERY positive that they wouldn't simply give away this market to their main competitor. Yield is excellent in this route, so who can blame them?Not to mention bi-lateral agreements terms and conditions...

So, as you see, I think it all comes down to very simple reasons...


Um abraço

Domenico
Aviation is my thing!
 
airbazar
Posts: 6860
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 3:30 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 32):
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 29):
Tell that to SA. How much traffic do they pick up at Sal?

What????

The topic was GRU and NRT, not SAL.

With a fuel stop at MBJ, and you said "You've got to have a reasonable base for local traffic." My point is, you don't need local traffic for a fuel stop. We know there's plenty of O&D traffic between GRU and NRT so that's not the issue.
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:30 am

Winnipeg may be a good fuel stop. Only 10 km longer than a direct flight and the distance is almost divided halfway.

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=n...E=best&RANGE-COLOR=navy&MAP-STYLE=
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:05 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:56 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 37):
Winnipeg may be a good fuel stop. Only 10 km longer than a direct flight and the distance is almost divided halfway.

Canada would surely require brazilians to have Canadian Visas even if they're flying on the same aircraft. For a Brazil-Japan flight a stop in Canada or USA doesn't work because of the visa issue.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:04 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 38):
Canada would surely require brazilians to have Canadian Visas even if they're flying on the same aircraft. For a Brazil-Japan flight a stop in Canada or USA doesn't work because of the visa issue.

I know, you told me this about a similar issue some time ago. But if it´s only a fuel stop when nobody is leaving or boarding the aircraft and the pax still need visa, then the authorities are stupid as they limit potential reveues for the airport and by this they don´t have any taxes flowing into the state money chambers (or however I should call it, I don´t know  Smile ).
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
cslusarc
Posts: 553
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 2:29 pm

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:41 am

Can Brazillians apply by mail for a Canadaian Visa? [Unlike a US Visa that requires an in-person interview.] If so, then obtaining a Canadian Visa is easier. [Japanese Citizens don't require Canadian Visas.]
--cslusarc from YWG
 
bsbisland
Posts: 315
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:45 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:08 am

Quoting PPSMA (Reply 35):
Dear friend, if VS does not fly to Brazil it's only because of a couple of very simple reasons:
1) markets with higher priorities - they certainly have other markets which look more promising than Brazil. India, for one, is right now on the top of the agenda for both British and Indian airlines
2) capacity constraint: VS does not have enough widebodies to fly everywhere they're already committed to, let alone to explore new markets.
3) competition: BA does a wonderful job serving Brazil and I'm VERY positive that they wouldn't simply give away this market to their main competitor. Yield is excellent in this route, so who can blame them?Not to mention bi-lateral agreements terms and conditions...

Dear Friend,
Bilateral agreements... that´s why ANA (or VS, or MX) can´t fly to Brazil, not because the route is not important,profitable or anything, as you stated.
You stated that Brazil-Japan isn´t a high demanded route, which is not the case here.
Kind Regards
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5048
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:50 am

Quoting Cslusarc (Reply 40):
Can Brazillians apply by mail for a Canadaian Visa? [Unlike a US Visa that requires an in-person interview.] If so, then obtaining a Canadian Visa is easier. [Japanese Citizens don't require Canadian Visas.]

Hi Cslusarc,

In fact brazilians could not use an e-mail to apply for the visa. The maximum alowed by Canadian Embassy/Consulates is to hire an agent to prepare the documents to yourselves. A list of some agents is provided at Canadian Embassy website in Brazil.
Even for transit brazilians are required to obtain a visa.
US, Canada and Mexico keep the same requirements, but US is by far the most expensive visa!
Canada does not require any payment for tourism or transit. I don't know about Mexico new rules.

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
incitatus
Posts: 2699
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:22 am

Quoting PPSMA (Reply 18):
Now, if this route was that important (GRU/NRT) as everybody has been stating, don´t you think that :

1) JAL would have increased their frequencies to daily?
2) The European Airlines would not be heavily promoting JAPAN in the market?
3) RG would not only fight for more frequencies but also go back flying into OSA?
4) ANA would not have put enough pressure on both governments to obtain traffic rights via Europe?

C´mon, people, wake up!

You have a point, but the problem is not the size of the market. It is the number of options available. Traffic gets spread across multiple carriers with stops in the US, Canada and Europe. They all offer service that is comparable in terms of total travel time with Varig and JAL. Many also offer daily service, which JAL and Varig don't offer - and one stop GRU-KIX, also not in the menu at JAL and Varig. So JAL and Varig are the flag carriers but offer an inferior product in many aspects.
Stop pop up ads
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:33 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 43):
Traffic gets spread across multiple carriers with stops in the US, Canada and Europe. They all offer service that is comparable in terms of total travel time with Varig and JAL

Correct. Honestly, nowadays there is a multitude of options for Brazil-Japan travel. Traffic, in fact, is very intense. Brazil-Japan traffic was one of the main factors for LX to keep its operations in GRU (its only LatAm destination). If you fly via Europe, US, Canada or direct with JL or RG, the total flight time is about the same. Some options changing planes are even less time consuming that RG and JL direct service (vide AA via DFW or LH via FRA or LX via ZRH).

Traffic Japan-Brazil is intense, the fact is that there are a number of options available for the passenger.

Quoting BSBIsland (Reply 23):
Well, if you consider that Brazil-Japan is a quite competitive market with JL,RG,AA,DL,CO,UA,AC,AF,LH,AZ,LX,BA and KL

Totally correct. There is NO shortage of flight between Brazil and Japan.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 33):
As far as i know, VS is still doing analisys on Brazilian Market

Correct. VS officially stated that GIG is in its "wishlist". TAM and VS are now very close I maybe we could see them operating LON-GRU (or GIG) nonstop in the future.

Rgs,
 
JAM747
Topic Author
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:17 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:47 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 44):
If you fly via Europe, US, Canada or direct with JL or RG, the total flight time is about the same. Some options changing planes are even less time consuming that RG and JL direct service (vide AA via DFW or LH via FRA or LX via ZRH).

How long is the typical time of travel between Japan to GRU via these routes?
Thanks.
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Sat Oct 22, 2005 6:03 pm

Quoting JAM747 (Reply 45):
How long is the typical time of travel between Japan to GRU via these routes?

About 25h direct with RG (via LAX) and JL (via JFK).

But if you fly changing planes you can make it in 24h via CDG (TAM-JAL agreement), 24h via MXP with AZ, 25h with LX via ZRH or 25h with AA via DFW or 26h with LH via FRA, etc, etc...In sum, there is no advantage to fly JL or RG in terms of flight-time. In my opinion a change of planes is better because you can strech your legs and relax a bit before the next flight.

Rgs,
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5048
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:30 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 44):
TAM and VS are now very close I maybe we could see them operating LON-GRU (or GIG) nonstop in the future.

Hardi, allow me a little comment.
TAM is so close to Virgin as British. TAM use British lounge at MIA and Virgin at JFK, both paid. I do not see so close relations between Virgin and Tam just because of that, and as far as i saw in the past, only British operates on MIA concurse A at MIA.

Abraços!
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:24 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 47):
TAM is so close to Virgin as British

You are correct. And from a market point of view, TAM would have no advantage teaming up with VS because it would entail another player in the Brazilian market increasing competition. It would make more sense a BA+JJ alliance paving the way for JJ entrance in OW.

I only made that comment on JJ and VS because of the recent deal in which JJ uses VS lounge in JFK. Any reason why JJ has not sought a deal with BA in JFK? [it is known that VS has the best lounge in JFK]

Tks,
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5048
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Japan (NRT) To Brazil (GRU) Via Jamaica (MBJ)?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:05 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 48):
I only made that comment on JJ and VS because of the recent deal in which JJ uses VS lounge in JFK. Any reason why JJ has not sought a deal with BA in JFK? [it is known that VS has the best lounge in JFK]

I'm not specialist at JFK (could any of our US friends solve this) but i believe TAM will operate in a different terminal from British. Interesting that AA keep very strong operations at Concurse A in MIA and TAM does not use their lounge while keep code-share with AA on its own night flight.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !