flydc10
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:20 pm

Long Haul Crews

Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:41 am

Hey

Here in Mexico BA flies only 4x a week, if the flight gets here on Monday and gets flies again on Wednesday, does the crew that flew the plane on Monday, stay in a hotel in mex until Wednesday, isn't this a waste of resources (crew).

Regards

flydc10
vivan nuestras aerolineas nacionales
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
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RE: Long Haul Crews

Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:48 am

Quoting Flydc10 (Thread starter):
Here in Mexico BA flies only 4x a week, if the flight gets here on Monday and gets flies again on Wednesday, does the crew that flew the plane on Monday, stay in a hotel in mex until Wednesday, isn't this a waste of resources (crew).

Not according to BA  Wink

Seriously long haul involves long duty times with maybe a rest in a bunk while on board. Then there's a time difference on top of that. Having the crew fly back after only 8 hours in a hotel room works on some routes (JFK-LHR) but not on the longer ones. I'd rather have a rested crew.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
zvezda
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RE: Long Haul Crews

Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:53 am

It is not unusual for crews to rest 48 hours before returning on flights of 12 hours or more.
 
Mr AirNZ
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RE: Long Haul Crews

Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:02 am

I know of one route and one airline where he crew get a 5 day layover in Hawaii! Hows that for work.
 
carduelis
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RE: Long Haul Crews

Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:37 am

I flew for a number of years in the early 60s as BOAC Cabin Crew.

All my trips were 21 days long, on 707/436s going around the world, with seven to ten days at home before doing it all over again!

Yes, we did have five days off in HNL because the three flights a week were scheduled Fri/Sat/Sun, so if we arrived in HNL on Sun, we had to wait for the next aircraft coming around on Friday. Similarly, for the same reason, we did the same thing in TYO or SFO, if we arrived on Sunday at those places.

Efficient? Of course it was . . . !
Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
 
PIA777
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RE: Long Haul Crews

Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:40 am

For instance, PIA Flys to ORD on Wed and Sat. The Crew arriving on Wed
leaves on Sat and the Sat crew leaves on Wednesday. What I find weird
is that the Cockpit crew stays at a 5 start Hotel in Downtown and the cabin
crew stays near ORD.

PIA777
GO CUBS!!
 
wunala
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RE: Long Haul Crews

Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:21 am

Quoting PIA777 (Reply 5):
What I find weird
is that the Cockpit crew stays at a 5 start Hotel in Downtown and the cabin
crew stays near ORD.

I know a few airlines that do that, either to keep the distinction between the two or the pilots have better bargaining skills!!!

I think it is wrong, unless there is some over whealming reason to do so. All staff should be treated equally.
 
IADLHR
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RE: Long Haul Crews

Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:28 am

I know that the BA crew that flies LHR-ORD and laysover for a day or so and does ORD-IAH-ORD and laysover again before flying ORD-LHR stays at a different hotel, a few blocks away, from the hotel in Chicago where the other BA crews stay.

I never could figure that one out, especially since I would regard the hotel where the other BA crews stay as being better. Strange.
 
edhugo
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RE: Long Haul Crews

Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:24 pm

Quoting PIA777 (Reply 5):



Quoting IADLHR (Reply 7):

I'm sure it all comes down to the Union's, their contracts and negotiation skills. And I'm also sure that, if it were for the Airline, they'd all stay at the closest Motel6.
 
Trolley Dolley
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RE: Long Haul Crews

Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:18 pm

The MEX route uses quite a few MEX based crew as I found out when I flew it as a pax. They gave great service.

A 48 hour break after a 13 hour day involving a big time change, before an overnight flight back is not an inefficient use of resources.
 
AlanUK
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RE: Long Haul Crews

Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:21 pm

Quoting Flydc10 (Thread starter):
isn't this a waste of resources (crew).

Oh sure it is! Let's make the crew sleep on the aircraft for a couple of hours after a duty day of 13 hours, then make them fly straight back to London on another 11 hour flight... If there's an emergency on landing in London and they're just too tired to know what an aircraft door looks like after working a mere 26 hours with a little sleep on the aircraft, never mind, it's just efficient this way...  crazy 

Honestly? How many hours do you work in your office job? 8? Add the numbers up, then add jet lag, mandatory rest etc etc. I can assure you that a crew staying in MEX for 48 hours isn't a waste of resources, leaving the plane there for 48H would be a waste. Crew are cheap on the whole picture of the airline. And just to make you more mad, there is also a 72h layover in Mexico for BA Crew!  smile 

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 7):
I know that the BA crew that flies LHR-ORD and laysover for a day or so and does ORD-IAH-ORD and laysover again before flying ORD-LHR stays at a different hotel, a few blocks away, from the hotel in Chicago where the other BA crews stay.

I never could figure that one out, especially since I would regard the hotel where the other BA crews stay as being better. Strange.

This is purely because the "main" hotel by the J. Hancock Tower cannot accomodote the volume of crew if you include the Houston shuttle.

Safe flying all.
 
LordHowe
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RE: Long Haul Crews

Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:41 pm

This is actually quite an interesting topic!

The question of crew layover time is always a question of costs and can have huge effect on decisions about new routes.

Could you crew members here in a.net tell us a little more of layover times in different airlines? Isnt't it quite common with 24 hours turnover?

I remember once flying from CDG to MRU (12 hour flight overnight) with European Aircharter classic jumbo, because MKs own 340-300 planned for this flight had some technical problems.

The flight had Europeans own crew and when I asked them upon arrival to MRU in the morning when they would be flying back to Europe, they told me that they would return on the same evening. This meant that they didn't have more than about 10-12 hours time before being back on duty and flying again a 12 hours overnight flight. This does not seem very safe - is it even legal?

It would be nice to hear how the other airlines have it.

Best regards,
LordHowe
Lord Howe Island - The Last Paradise
 
AirGAbon
Posts: 676
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RE: Long Haul Crews

Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:36 pm

It's legal and normal. AF crew members when they fly to Luanda or Djibouti (just 1 flight per week), they arrive very early in the morning, spend 10-12 hours in a hotel during the day, and fly back to CDG the same evening.

In comparison with very long-haul daily flights like SFO, NRT, EZE, GRU, SIN or MEX they have 2 days rest (or even 3 sometimes).
 
LordHowe
Posts: 671
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RE: Long Haul Crews

Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:10 pm

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 12):
AF crew members when they fly to Luanda or Djibouti (just 1 flight per week), they arrive very early in the morning, spend 10-12 hours in a hotel during the day, and fly back to CDG the same evening.

I do not think it is nearly the same as CDG-MRU, because CDG-Luanda is 8 hour flight and CDG-Djibouti just over 7 hour flight.

CDG-MRU is 12 hours ...

Best regards,
LordHowe
Lord Howe Island - The Last Paradise
 
NetworkDoc
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RE: Long Haul Crews

Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:19 pm

Apart from basic legal requirements, the rest is probably pretty much down to bargaining power of crew at their respective airlines. Thus, I would expect much variation as a result of that and am not surprised that different practices prevail.
Flown: AB/BA/BD/BI/CX/DI/DL/KE/KL/LH/LT/LX/MH/NW/OZ/PR/QF/SN/SQ/TW/UA/VS/5J.
 
aussiestu
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RE: Long Haul Crews

Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:02 am

A lot of rest in cities is due to the frequencies of flights. If its daily then the rest is shorter but if flights are not daily then the slip pattern will be different due to when the aircraft arrives and departs. Some trips are shorter and others are longer but some trips require a rest of 2 nights before returning to base and others are pushed to the minimum and only require a night.

Any airline running a business wants the minimum rest for crew and then get them working again but this does lead to several problems......crew fatigue, limited hours on duty and one that is often not catered to is lack of response to passenger service due to crew tiredness. It may be all well and good to companies balance sheets that crew only night stop somewhere but what is the overall customer satisfaction on the return flight due to crew tiredness??????
 
conair
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RE: Long Haul Crews

Sat Oct 22, 2005 6:38 pm

So What would be the position for say BA&Vs Flightcrews on LHR-LAX or SFO which are definitely longhaul(Over 11 hours) but are daily or in the case of LAX have up to 3 flights a day? I would have thought you would need over one day of rest but with say two or three flights a day you would need a lot of crew accommodation.

Regards
Conair
 
LordHowe
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RE: Long Haul Crews

Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:48 pm

Quoting Conair (Reply 16):
What would be the position for say BA&Vs Flightcrews on LHR-LAX or SFO

My guess is that the crew will have around 24 hours in LAX or SFO and then back home ...

Finnair has daily flight to BKK. Three times a week the aircraft will proceed to HKG and four times a week to SIN. The crew will, after 10 hour flight HEL-BKK stay in BKK until the next days flight, the they will work for the BKK-HKG/SIN-BKK flights, stay again 24 hours in BKK and then back to HEL.

Regards,
LordHowe
Lord Howe Island - The Last Paradise
 
eoinnz
Posts: 184
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RE: Long Haul Crews

Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:32 pm

I was speaking to someone at emirates a while ago so it may of changed but crew on the SYD-AKL and BNE-AKL overnight before returning to SYD/BNE however the crew on the MEL-AKL had to do the return journey as well - And it's the longest out of the 3 flights as well at about 4 hours each way as comapred to Sydney where the flight is often under 3 hours and Brisbane at about 3 1/2 hours
 
wrighbrothers
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RE: Long Haul Crews

Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:01 pm

Quoting Conair (Reply 16):
So What would be the position for say BA&Vs Flightcrews on LHR-LAX or SFO which are definitely longhaul(Over 11 hours)

I was talking to the cabin crew when I did LHR-LAX on BA back in August, and I thought the First class purser said the the layover in LAX/SFO is 2 days. Although it can be 3. Compare that to SEA and the BA crews on have 1 night.

Wrighbrothers
Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: Long Haul Crews

Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:13 pm

So, let's take it further...

Take BA in ORD... on a typical afternoon/early evening the ride from ORD to downtown Chicago, especially Hancock (and the nearby hotels) can take up to 2hrs if you have bad luck. I don't think the crew is taking the CTA, so:
-how is transportation handled
-how are these hours counted? Worktime but off duty? Spare time? Bad luck for crew time?
-does that make sense? There are enough decent hotels in the northwestern burbs of Chicago, why carry the crowd downtown?
-how is the time regarded when shuttling outbound to ORD? It is not really restful to take that ride in the afternoon, no matter what car you are in...
-does any airline actually have their crew use public transportation for purposes like this? Or do they operate their own shuttles? Downtown hotels do often not have shuttles to ORD, so is this outsourced transportation or how does that work?
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
mandala499
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RE: Long Haul Crews

Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:14 pm

Here's an example of an "over efficient use of human resources"...
I know someone who was called up out of standby, to the airport at MXP, wait for her 777 to come... the sister company's A332 had gone tech... so they had to provide the flight... So...

Plane arrives in MXP, not enough time to clean up, flies back to FCO with the crew becoming janitors... land... and... Where's the A330? It's still 2hrs out... (great news! they just became cleaners because the sister company's dispatch demanded the 777 leave immediately for FCO...)...

A330 arrived... Pax transferred... where's the catering? It came in the form of the meal carts and galley contents from the A330 flight... Where's the water? Hello Dispatch? "Water? You don't need water, you need to fly to MRU NOW! Give the pax softdrinks!" *yikes*

So, 11hrs to MRU... with the A330 crew of the sister company deadheading (yes, dead heading and they were gonna have a 1 week layover)... landed... Capt. informed that it'll be "minimum rest"... 8hrs... Went to the hotel, and 6hrs later, they were woken up... 8 hrs minimum rest is supposed to be 8hrs continuous rest AFTER ARRIVAL at the hotel... Guess what the sister company said... "Nope! U landed 8hrs ago, U gotta depart in 1 hr!" "How about work and safety rules?" "Sort that out when you get back to base" (which then everyone in the sister company denied it ever happened)...

So, the A330 crew had a 1 week layover in Mauritius with a deadhead on the replacement flight... and the replacement flight crew had below minimum rest...

The whole crew was sick within 24hrs of arrival with fatigue...

7 day Maldives layover is nice... for about 2 or 3 visits... after that U dread it! LOL

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
AlanUK
Posts: 511
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:56 am

RE: Long Haul Crews

Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:24 pm

Quoting LordHowe (Reply 17):
My guess is that the crew will have around 24 hours in LAX or SFO and then back home ...

Wrong, both BA and VS crew stay a minimum of 48 hours in LAX and SFO.

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 20):
-how is transportation handled

By a private coaching firm taking crew straight from outside the terminal to the door of the hotel

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 20):
-how are these hours counted? Worktime but off duty? Spare time? Bad luck for crew time?

BA allows between 30 and 60 minutes debriefing time when away from base, this time starts from engines off. After that, if the journey to the hotel takes 2 hours, it is time that crew are unpaid for, and counts towards crew rest. In another words, bad luck!

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 20):
-does that make sense? There are enough decent hotels in the northwestern burbs of Chicago, why carry the crowd downtown?

Heck why not put us in the airline's lounges within the terminal whilst you're at it?! We stay in city centres because we fought long and hard to keep it that way. Because we sometimes want to see the sights and enjoy an evening in a downtown bar or restaurant rather than having to get a cab, or god forbid public transport to do anything with our spare time downroute.

For your information, in 2004 alone, over 30 crew attempted suicide whilst away from home at BA alone, so the last thing BA wants is to put crew in a remote hotel where all there is to do is stare at 4 white walls.

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 20):
-how is the time regarded when shuttling outbound to ORD? It is not really restful to take that ride in the afternoon, no matter what car you are in...

Same as the time it takes to get from the report centre to the aircraft at base (LHR, LGW, MAN...). It is part of the briefing time (usually about 60 to 90 minutes allowance) - paid and counts towards total duty hours.

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 20):
-does any airline actually have their crew use public transportation for purposes like this? Or do they operate their own shuttles? Downtown hotels do often not have shuttles to ORD, so is this outsourced transportation or how does that work?

Like for hotels, BA has huge contracts for ground transport Worldwide. Third party coach companies run the service, usually for more than just one airline and to more than just one hotel.

Safe flying.
 
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zeke
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RE: Long Haul Crews

Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:30 pm

Long haul is not as attractive as it seems, you are constantly tired, your body clock does not know what "home" is, it leads to early aging. Always away from those who matter when its important.

The rest you get is the bare minimum the airline can roster you for, the romantic days of layovers for days on end are way over.

Long haul is not flying, its a job.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
wrighbrothers
Posts: 1807
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:15 am

RE: Long Haul Crews

Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:35 pm

Quoting AlanUK (Reply 22):
Wrong, both BA and VS crew stay a minimum of 48 hours in LAX and SFO.

Hi AlanUK , You weren't doing LHR-LAX in August in First class were you by any chance ?

Wrighbrothers
Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
 
DrP
Posts: 269
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RE: Long Haul Crews

Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:51 pm

Minimum rest laws can become complicated!

Basically, the minimum rest at base is 11 hours for FA's and 12 hours for pilot's. This can be reduced by one hour away from base. So technically, you can do a 10 hour flight, have 10 hours off downroute, and fly 10 hours back again, all legally. If the flight is a seriously long-haul one - you have to have the amount of time off you were working, minus an hour - ie a 14 hr flight, you would have to have a minimum of 13 hours rest.

As for the people who got woken after 6 hours in bed to operate back again, that is highly illegal! You are entitled to at least 8 hours sleep in a quiet, comfortable room. This was obviously misinterpreted.

These laws become even more complicated if rest is taken on-board. It all depends on whether you have a bed to sleep in or a chair to sit in, etc.

Remember, these laws are what we use in the UK, they may be different elsewhere!!  Smile
My pony plays the mamba . .
 
AlanUK
Posts: 511
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:56 am

RE: Long Haul Crews

Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:54 pm

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 24):
Hi AlanUK , You weren't doing LHR-LAX in August in First class were you by any chance ?

Nope. I'm not First trained, and only work Club World and World Traveller/+.
 
wrighbrothers
Posts: 1807
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:15 am

RE: Long Haul Crews

Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:59 pm

Quoting AlanUK (Reply 26):
Nope. I'm not First trained, and only work Club World and World Traveller/+.

Ok, I flew to LAX on staff travel and there was no food, so I spent about .....4/5 hours talking to the cabin crew ! I was just curious

Wrighbrothers
Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
 
corsairf/a
Posts: 366
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RE: Long Haul Crews

Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:02 pm

At Corsair we got one week lay-over in MBA and MLE, as both are a weekly flight. It is cheaper for tCorsair that we stay there than paying 19 one-ways tickets to Paris.
 
SongStar
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:32 pm

RE: Long Haul Crews

Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:27 pm

On typical transatlantic routes Delta crews spend on average 24 hours in a city. When the seasonal schedule pull down occurs ( sept/oct/nov ) there are some 48 and 72 hrs layovers. Even NRT has a 24 hrs layover for Delta...If I remember correctly UAL has at least 48 hrs in Asia...

Domestically...the days of long layovers in SFO/SAN/LAX/DEN/PHX/NYC etc are pretty much gone...It is not unusual to have 12 or less hours in these cities or any domestic city after 3 or 4 or even 5 legs and most likely having to do that many legs the next day. Most 3 day trips now have 2 layovers in smaller cities ( ie: RIC / BNA etc ) and the layover times are all typically 11 or so hours...

Oh the times have changed  Smile

ss

flysong.com
 
HALFA
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2004 8:24 am

RE: Long Haul Crews

Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:21 am

Presently at HA, our longest crew layovers are in SYD. We have 50 hours there.
Our flights from HNL to PPT, PPG, and ANC are redeye turnarounds, meaning we leave HNL and fly about 5 1/2 hours and then have 1 1/2 hours on the ground and then fly back to HNL.
Our trips from HNL to most west coast cities are just overnighters. We arrive there late in the evening and have minimal rest of about 9-10 hours and then fly back to HNL in the morning.
When I started at HA back in the mid 80's, we had week long layovers in London, Paris, Montego Bay, Papeete, and several days in LAS, FRA, ZRH, NGO, among other places.
My favorite trip was deadheading from HNL to ATH and staying there the entire month. We would only work on the weekends, leaving ATH on Friday afternoons and fly to Bahrain and then continue on to Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean. We would have about 30 hours in Diego Garcia and then fly back to ATH via BAH and arrive early Monday morning and have the rest of the week off in ATH before going back to Diego Garcia the next weekend. It was great!

Aloha,
HALFA
HA J Class Lie flats, coming soon to a plane near you........
 
Sano1980
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:02 pm

RE: Long Haul Crews

Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:35 pm

Well, as someone already said before, most of our rotations are pretty hard work, with the romantic layovers gone forever I mean, it IS a pretty normal job...what did you expect?

Anyway, sometimes we do have some goodie trips I am based in MUC for LH and here it depends on several factors. For instance the change between summer and winter sched. Cutting down the days of operation or cutting the route down in general leeds to funny rotations - especially during that time where the schedule actually changes (end of oct, or end or march).

The fact, that we only operate the A340 out of MUC, also contributes to longer layovers, simply because it flies slowlier then the B747 thus creating a longer flight with more minimum rest at our destination.

Then, on some routes, we are still missing some rights to fly over certain countries - that also makes a flight much longer. For instance when we fly MUC-PVG-MUC or MUC-HKG we are not allowed to fly over Russia, forcing us to take crazy routings around the southern border of that biiiig country. I had it several times, that the flight westbound from either HKG or PVG easily exceeded 13 hours. Crazy, but nice for the crews, since all of that forces LH to give us either more off days at home, at the layover or both.

By the way, while writing this to you, I am off coming back from BKK. The rotation was. MUC-BKK, 2 nights off, shuttle BKK-KUL-BKK, 2 nights off, and back home BKK-MUC...This is one of the nice and popular rotations, whereas the MUC-JFK/IAD/YUL/BOS/ORD/CLT flights are really hard, with only 20 hours or so off...Also, since we have a pretty powerfull seniority system at LH, you need to fly minimum 4-6 years in order to have a little chance catching one of these goodie trips to HKG, BKK, PEK or PVG. For colleagues based in FRA it even worse. There, you need to fly at least 10-14 years to only come close to these kind of trips. As you see, there is always 2 sides of a coin.

Take Care,
Sano

[Edited 2005-10-25 10:43:30]
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5176
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:08 pm

RE: Long Haul Crews

Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:59 pm

Quoting Eoinnz (Reply 18):
I was speaking to someone at emirates a while ago so it may of changed but crew on the SYD-AKL and BNE-AKL overnight before returning to SYD/BNE however the crew on the MEL-AKL had to do the return journey as well

i think you will find the same crews do the return now also...i've heard but i am not sure and i doubt it, but some EK crews do the return sector from Mel/Syd to Dxb the next day, someone told me they returned the same night after the early AM arrival which i very much doubt.

think you will find the overnight QF flight to Narita sends it's crews back 12hrs later also.
 
ZKSUJ
Posts: 6812
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 5:15 pm

RE: Long Haul Crews

Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:19 pm

Quoting PIA777 (Reply 5):
What I find weird
is that the Cockpit crew stays at a 5 start Hotel in Downtown and the cabin
crew stays near ORD.

I know that SQ pilots and cabin crew stay at different hotels in AKL.
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Long Haul Crews

Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:14 pm

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 33):
I know that SQ pilots and cabin crew stay at different hotels in AKL.

At SQ, for the most part the cockpit and cabin crews have different layover hotels.
Fly fast, live slow