wrighbrothers
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Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:19 am

I was just doing my usual searching around aimlessly for flight priceses, but came across this. I can't "book" First class on BA MAN-JFK on their 767. Now I know that G-BNWH isn't dusked yet and that as far as I know, it hasn't been replaced. So

1-Why can't you book First class?
2- Why didn't BA keep First class on their L/H 767's ?( they could have atleast put it on G-BNWH for the JFK service)

Cheers
Wrighbrothers

[Edited 2005-10-23 00:21:51]
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777236ER
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:22 am

Because no one north of Watford wants to fly First Class.
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dutchjet
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:29 am

More and more, F class is being limited to certain routes where there is actual paying demand for the service - my guess is that there is not adequate demand on the JFK-MAN service to support the F class cabin on a consistent basis.

So often, F class seats go out empty and/or occupied primarily by pax using upgrades or other promotional deals that it does not make economic sense for the airlines to maintain the product for the very few that will actually pay for it. J class in many cases offers a flying experience that is more than adequate for even the fussiest flyer.

Many airlines have dropped F class altogether (ie, CO, KL, DL) and others are offering F class only a certain airplanes flying certain routes where there is demand for the service (ie, AA, BA, AF, LH).......JFK-MAN just did not make the cut, and the fact that its flown by a "smaller" aircraft did not help the situation.
 
whitehatter
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:35 am

Just no demand for it.

There is no point in using space and weight for FIRST seating that will only ever see upgrades or staff freeloaders sat in it. The space is better employed for Club World or shuffling the dividers about and increasing availablilty for WT or WT+

There will eventually be this convergence on most airlines with only a few proven routes offering a First Class cabin. People who can afford the front cabin are normally top tier business flyers and many of them have defected to the increasingly more affordable operations such as NetJets for a truly tailored First Class experience.

Northern Executive Aviation's ramp at MAN shows just how true this is nowadays with a steady stream of US, Canadian and Portugese registered exec aircraft arriving and departing all day.
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wrighbrothers
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:37 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2):
More and more, F class is being limited to certain routes where there is actual paying demand for the service -

True, but not many of BA L/H routes don't have F class. MCO,TPA and some of the LGW L/H routes+ (now) the L/H 767 routes.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2):
JFK-MAN service to support the F class cabin on a consistent basis.

Surly couldn't BA transfer some of their LHR F passengers at bussy points to the MAN service, with a free LHR-MAN flight or something,
OR  idea 
Couldn't they do a LHR-MAN-JFK service,
then all the 767's would be based at LHR,
G-BNWH would be cleaner
they could use other L/H 767's to support the route
They could earn extra revenue from PAX on the LHR-MAN sector
They could make a 2nd daily route if PAX loads are good
And
If the aircraft goes tech, they can load them off to a LHR-JFK/EWR flight and Visa Versa

Wrighbrothers
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dutchjet
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:00 am

I really dont think that F class pax on the LHR-JFK route would be interested in flying via MAN!

In honestly, you are trying too hard. BA is all about London and they have little interest in expanding or improving longhaul service out of Manchester or other UK regional airports......the JFK-MAN service is maintained for several reasons, it probably does make some money for the airline and BA would probably have a huge PR probem is it cut its one remaining longhaul route out of an airport outside of the London area.

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 4):

Surly couldn't BA transfer some of their LHR F passengers at bussy points to the MAN service, with a free LHR-MAN flight or something,
OR
Couldn't they do a LHR-MAN-JFK service,
then all the 767's would be based at LHR,
G-BNWH would be cleaner
they could use other L/H 767's to support the route
They could earn extra revenue from PAX on the LHR-MAN sector
They could make a 2nd daily route if PAX loads are good
And
If the aircraft goes tech, they can load them off to a LHR-JFK/EWR flight and Visa Versa

Wrighbrothers
 
Shamrock_747
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:11 am

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 4):
Surly couldn't BA transfer some of their LHR F passengers at bussy points to the MAN service, with a free LHR-MAN flight or something,
OR
Couldn't they do a LHR-MAN-JFK service,
then all the 767's would be based at LHR,

Whilst leisure passengers on A class restricted tickets may appreciate the additional flying time to enjoy the FIRST service, full fare ticket holders on their way to a meeting or wanting to get straight Manhattan to catch a good night's sleep before the next day's business would be unimpressed with a detour via England's delightful North West to say the least!

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 4):
They could earn extra revenue from PAX on the LHR-MAN sector

Unless they were all on J class full fares would it really be worth it?!

Once BNWH is dusk embodied all worldwide fleet 767-336ERs will be in a uniform configuration, with the benefit of increased operational flexibility. It's a shame to see FIRST disappear from some of the African routes but I don't think MAN-JFK needs it added!
 
bh4007
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:02 pm

BA really need to replace or at least update their 763s - have you seen the state of the exterior of BNWH nowadays:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © BigSkyBirds


Compared to:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mike Moores



I know that the latter is newer but even so - BA is one of the worlds most respected airlines and to have aircraft this shabby when you are paying £400 easily MAN-JFK its a real shame. Its almost like BA ignore their 767s and favour their newer craft. (having said that, the mechanical state of these aircraft will be second to none + I haven't seen the interior lately.)
 
wrighbrothers
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:25 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
I really dont think that F class pax on the LHR-JFK route would be interested in flying via MAN!

But airlines such as QF do things like that: i.e SYD-MEL-LAX-JFK ( On some days) and SYD-BNE-AKL-LAX and NZ do LAX-CHC-AKL.
Now i'm sure the passengers going from SYD-AKL wouln't want to go via BNE , but they do and it must work for QF.
So why wouln't it work for BA ? They would be able to sell tickets on the LHR-MAN and MAN-LHR aswell as LHR-JFK and return and MAN-JFK and return. Perhaps some people might find that an eaisier route. As they can spend over night in Manchester before going on to JFK.

Quoting Bh4007 (Reply 7):
BA really need to replace or at least update their 763s

Well,from what i've heard, they should be replaced by 5-10 years time by 787's. But this could be wrong.

Quoting Bh4007 (Reply 7):
Its almost like BA ignore their 767s and favour their newer craft.

It's only the MAN aircraft that is in such a state, the LHR aircrafts are fine. This is because the MAN aircraft only goes upto LHR when mantinence is needed so it isn't cleaned that much.
This is also why I think a LHR-MAN-JFK route would be good. The MAN based aircraft would get the smae treatment as the LHR aircrafts, when it goes tech, another 767 can simply be put on it , instead of having to fly another 767 ot MAN, or cancelling the flight.

Quoting Shamrock_747 (Reply 6):
full fare ticket holders on their way to a meeting or wanting to get straight Manhattan to catch a good night's sleep before the next day's business would be unimpressed with a detour via England's delightful North West to say the least!

And they can catch a non-stop LHR-JFK/EWR flight. instead

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
In honestly, you are trying too hard.

Perhaps I am.  Sad

Wrighbrothers
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AirPacific747
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:30 pm

not enough demand I guess....
 
Lufthansa747
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:09 pm

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 8):
SYD-BNE-AKL-LAX

At least this one is a 2-class milk run that is available for awards all the time.
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wrighbrothers
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:20 pm

Quoting Lufthansa747 (Reply 10):
At least this one is a 2-class milk run that is available for awards all the time.

Perhaps BA could sell Economy( World Traveller) and ( if needs be) premier economy ( World Traveller Plus) on the LHR-MAN/MAN-LHR sector with First and CLUB only avalible to passengers going to/from JFK and Gold/Silver Executive club members ?

Quoting Lufthansa747 (Reply 10):
that is available for awards all the time

Excuse my lack of knowlede, but what does that mean ?

Wrighbrothers
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Lufthansa747
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:22 pm

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 11):
Excuse my lack of knowlede, but what does that mean ?

BNE-AKL and AKL-LAX are very often wide open for U-class, i.e. business class award.

SYD-AKL and SYD-LAX are very tough to get.
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speedbird19
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:27 pm

Quoting Bh4007 (Reply 7):
BA really need to replace or at least update their 763s - have you seen the state of the exterior of BNWH nowadays

You're telling me, a lot of BA's aircraft I've seen at MAN lately are all dirty-definately need a re-spray or at least a clean!!!
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LobsterTail
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:29 pm

Quoting Bh4007 (Reply 7):
BA really need to replace or at least update their 763s - have you seen the state of the exterior of BNWH nowadays:

BA are in the process of updating the interiors of all of their long haul 767s
 
cedarjet
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:40 pm

BA have three 777s which only have WT, WT+ and J class, I know they're used for Toronto, and F class on the 747s that do YYZ is often empty and not sold. I can see BA reconfiguring more of their planes (including some 747s) without F class.
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Lufthansa747
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:49 pm

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 15):
I can see BA reconfiguring more of their planes (including some 747s) without F class.

Agreed.

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 15):
F class on the 747s that do YYZ is often empty and not sold.

I believe since BA switched to only 1 744 with F it's been doing ok to YYZ. BA should also have a look at its F product - it's appalling to say the least compared to Singapore Airlines or even LH. Dom and caviar in BA F anybody?  Yeah sure
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whitehatter
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:50 pm

Quoting Speedbird19 (Reply 13):
You're telling me, a lot of BA's aircraft I've seen at MAN lately are all dirty-definately need a re-spray or at least a clean!!!

BA no longer have washing facilities at MAN and are too tight-fisted to subcontract it out properly to someone like Monarch or FLS. With their service withdrawals I can't see them doing anything about it soon.

When the 1-11 fleet was based up here they were always spotless. One problem with WH is that it flies the JFK turn every day and doesn't get the time to be towed off the gate and scrubbed. There isn't an equivalent turn with another 763 where it can be swapped at JFK so it has to be swapped out with another 763 on a Shuttle rotation out of LHR to go for a deep clean, and that's expensive.

BTW one of the Nigels in the other forum that involves prunes in its title  Smile mentioned the other day that MAN-JFK-MAN continues to do well, and latest estimates are that the route is up to £2m per annum clear profit. I've certainly noticed that fares have crept up on the route, with bargains at LHR rates impossible to find in Y class.
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airsnaps
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:07 pm

This BA scrap metal would be my last choice for a journey across the Atlantic.

It was wonderful when CO flew the B772 into MAN for the daily service to EWR but they have since down-graded to the B762 & B752. AA use the B752 to Boston and Delta use the B763 to Atlanta. The ever-disastrous BMI currently use a leased B752 to Washington, despite using the odd remaining A332's based at MAN on less politically-correct routes such as Bridgetown & Las Vegas.

The only daily trans-Atlantic airline worth taking out of MAN is US Airways on their A333.

Given the choice though, I'd rather make the effort to take UA or VS out of LHR for my next American voyage.
 
matt24wigan
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:10 pm

will this route have seatback screens in economy, at the beginning of december?
matt from wigan in lancashire
 
fbgdavidson
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:15 pm

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 15):
I can see BA reconfiguring more of their planes (including some 747s) without F class.

Not going to happen on the 747. The Club World seat doesn't lend itself well to the nose of the 747 and not many more seats would fit in. Pointless

Quoting Lufthansa747 (Reply 16):
BA should also have a look at its F product - it's appalling to say the least compared to Singapore Airlines or even LH

Well not appalling, agreed BA have let the F product slide, particularly on the soft touches but at least you get a horizontal flat bed which is much more important to me than caviar and an overhyped champagne.

[Edited 2005-10-23 16:17:10]
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Billy
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:19 pm

I read recently that only the 777s at AF will continue to have F-class. No demand on many of their routes.
 
whitehatter
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:23 pm

Quoting Airsnaps (Reply 18):
The only daily trans-Atlantic airline worth taking out of MAN is US Airways on their A333.

So the flights by DL, AA, CO and the rest don't merit your business then? CO's 762 product is every bit as good as a 772. The 752 isn't exactly an ordeal either, despite what the teenage business tycoons here seem to think.

Quoting Matt24wigan (Reply 19):
will this route have seatback screens in economy, at the beginning of december?

How many times do you need answering? NO!

[Edited 2005-10-23 16:24:33]
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
matt24wigan
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:27 pm

sum 1 said they would have on some 767's
matt from wigan in lancashire
 
WAH64D
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:28 pm

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 8):
Well,from what i've heard, they should be replaced by 5-10 years time by 787's. But this could be wrong.

I think that idea was canned, errr put in the circular file, about 5 minutes after Willie Walsh's left cheek touched his director's seat.
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star_world
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:34 pm

Quoting Airsnaps (Reply 18):
This BA scrap metal would be my last choice for a journey across the Atlantic.

There's no shortage of topics about this MAN-JFK route these days, is there?!

As stated many times already, including in this thread, the aircraft used on this route will be "dusked" shortly, meaning its interior will be completely re-done. This will give it the new economy, economy plus and Club World with the flat seats. This configuration in the 767 is actually far more appealing than in the 777 or 747, as there are less middle seats (none in NCW or WT+) and will obviously be a lot newer inside.

So I think you'll find that very quickly this will become one of the best ways to get to the US from MAN, certainly better than CO's 767 or 777 service (which I've been "enjoying" on a weekly basis recently!!)
 
Concorde001
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:35 pm

Quoting Airsnaps (Reply 18):
This BA scrap metal would be my last choice for a journey across the Atlantic.

It should be much, much better by December. By then, BA's 767 which operates MAN-JFK will have the new Club World, World Traveller Plus and World Traveller interior with PTVs, like this BA 767 below:

Club World on a refurbished BA767:
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/4097/767cw1ic.jpg

World Traveller Plus on a refurbished BA767:
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/3328/767wt2jg.jpg

World Traveller on a refurbished BA767:
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6621/767wt1hj.jpg
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/3057/767wt26we.jpg

Courtesy of Fbgdavidson

[Edited 2005-10-23 16:38:51]
 
wrighbrothers
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:48 pm

Quoting Matt24wigan (Reply 23):
sum 1 said they would have on some 767's

Yes , on SOME of the Long Haul ( L/H) 767's. All but the MAN based 767 now have
New Club world (with new softer flat beds)
World Traveller PLUS
New World Traveller ( with seat back PTV's)

The last LHR based 767 is currently being re-fitted, then 3 S/H aircrafts are being converted to L/H ( with the new interior) And then the MAN 767 will be refitted. So in short, the MAN 767 is the last BA 767 to be refitted with the new interior.

Quoting Lufthansa747 (Reply 16):
it's appalling to say the least compared to Singapore Airlines or even LH. Dom and caviar in BA F anybody?

I don't hink it's that bad, I think you are going a bit OTT with that.

Wrighbrothers
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highpeaklad
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:20 am

Quoting Matt24wigan (Reply 23):
sum 1 said they would have on some 767's

Don't worry,I've flown G-BNWH and survived (in the middle seat I might add) and so will you. I do think its a con though that BA have never advertised the fact more though. Just keep your fingers crossed. I think the best way to check is to try and book in WT+ on your flight the week before, if its available you'll be getting PTV.

Quoting Airsnaps (Reply 18):
The only daily trans-Atlantic airline worth taking out of MAN is US Airways on their A333.

I think you're a bit hard on BMI (ORD), they'd be my second choice any day of the week, only lacking the AVOD and at least their booze is still free (for the moment)

Chris
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airsnaps
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:47 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 22):
So the flights by DL, AA, CO and the rest don't merit your business then?

That is correct Roy. As I said, given the choice I would take the US A333 and connect via PHL.

The BA Club World package which is being proposed for introduction by the end of the year with half the seats facing backwards looking into a collection of faces in the same cabin is not really my idea of traveling in style and certainly not worth the extra hard earned cash. Even a forward-facing seat would result in some unknown stranger watching your every move for the best part of 7 hours; no thank you!
 
Speedbird2155
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:31 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 15):
F class on the 747s that do YYZ is often empty and not sold

Not sure where you got this info from, but it isn't true. First on this particular does rather well, hence the reason it was re-introduced on this service. YYZ might not have the capacity for 3 daily First services, but the current one is doing well.

Quoting Airsnaps (Reply 29):
The BA Club World package which is being proposed for introduction by the end of the year with half the seats facing backwards looking into a collection of faces in the same cabin is not really my idea of traveling in style and certainly not worth the extra hard earned cash. Even a forward-facing seat would result in some unknown stranger watching your every move for the best part of 7 hours; no thank you!

I would suggest that you actually try it before being overly critical. Flying backwards isn't bad and you hardly see a 'collection' of faces' given how the cabin is designed for privacy. Also when seated next to someone you do not know, there is no reason to have anyone 'watching your every move' as there is a privacy screen that works rather well.
 
airsnaps
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:15 am

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 30):
I would suggest that you actually try it before being overly critical.

This thread is becoming ridiculous! Why the hell would I want to try it given the tone of my above opinion?

I can see from just looking at it that this BA B763 new layout would not be the best by far. Yet despite this they still charge the earth for a return ticket when, as I have already said, I could have saved £200-£300 and taken the more modern, comfortable and spacious US Airways A333 - be it in Economy or Business Class.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Why No First Class On MAN-JFK On BA?

Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:39 am

Quoting Airsnaps (Reply 18):
It was wonderful when CO flew the B772 into MAN for the daily service to EWR but they have since down-graded to the B762 & B752.

I'm not honestly getting why you think the nearly new 762ER of CO is a downgrade in service from the 772ER they fly from a pax perspective? They have nearly identical product on both planes (a couple more channels on the 777 IFE PTVs, 1" of seat width in BF). The interiors are both 777 style, and the seating in the 767 at 2-1-2, 2-3-2 is more agreeable than the 2-2-2, 3-3-3 of the 777. Nor is the 762 any louder than the 772, and it takes less time to board and get through immigration, etc.
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